EP482 – Gutenberg It’s Complicated

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So number 482 of DAPY water cooler, Gutenberg.

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It's complicated.

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I'm Jason Tucker. I have a website, Jason Tucker. I can go take a look at it.

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Can and should. I'm Say Reid. I am at Say Reid Media on most of the things.

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Even the things shouldn't be done.

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And you all know who does this. It's your boy Jason Cosper back at it again on the world's

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most influential monkey paw of a WordPress podcast.

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And speaking of that, go find us wherever it is. You can find great podcasts.

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And come hang out with us in our Discord at watercoolerslack.

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That, LOL.

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Love our slack.

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Love our slack.

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It's so good.

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It got me with monkey paw.

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Asper, right off the bat. He just started it right away. Yeah.

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I have two things to just say about just the moment before we move into the topic.

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Can a third one be introducing Courtney?

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Oh, yeah.

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Oh, hi. I just kind of launch right into it. Right. Our esteemed guest with us today is none other than friend of the show, good friend of the show, and Rolodex memory of the show, Courtney Robertson.

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Hey, friends.

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Can I tell you about face thoughts about the media library dating back to the first year of the show?

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She could probably recite.

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You know what's funny?

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As I was about to say, you could recite my evolving step,

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my evolving take on it it but it hasn't

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changed because the media library hasn't changed okay this is not about the media library on

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it just i want to say two things one i have a pushine cup today for those of you who cannot see i always have

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this cup but i remembered when i just got here why i don't use it is because it's only the back of the

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cup facing the other person i don't get this like because it's only the back of the cup facing the other person.

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I don't get this. Like, is it a left-handers person cup? Maybe that is, it's for left-handed people.

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I'm going to be trying to drink with my left hand today over the microphone.

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So if I clock, I apologize.

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Tucker's holding a mug from WordCamp Ventura.

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Yep.

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That has, it's a mason jar with a handle.

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Kaspur brought some black to the show,

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and I'm drinking a creamy root beer Zivia,

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stevia sweetened soda.

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All sponsored, by the way, all sponsored.

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Remember that old, that old show that used to be on where they would talk about their drinks all the time?

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No.

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No, I don't.

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I don't remember it either.

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Okay.

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Shoot.

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Has anyone done the double thumbs down?

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Because I just discovered what it does.

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I don't know.

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I discovered this week.

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Anyway.

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We'll save it for later in the show.

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Yeah, I won't do it now.

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But I wanted to say. Our audio people are so lost.

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Speaking of your Ventura mug, I'm wearing my WordPress 20th anniversary sweatshirt because, you know, half my wardrobe is WordPress WordPress stuff. And along with my ongoing WordPress existential crisis is a war trope shift out, but this is a really comfortable sweater. But today I was reflecting on how it is WordPress birthday time again. And I was thinking how different this year has been last year. And I just thought that was interesting.That's all. It's just a nostalgic thought I thought I'd share with folks about last year and our 20th anniversary project and our high hopes and this year how dashed they've been.

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You know, WordPress is

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going to be old enough to drink and boy do we all need it.

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It has been in

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most countries not named

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USA for three plus years. Most countries I think you for three plus years.

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Most countries, I think, do like beer and cider at 16 and liquor at 18 or something like that.

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We're born here in the U.S., so I feel like it's a citizen and like 21's a big deal.

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Look, it's the way to be other adolescents, like, stages.

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So let's hope in four more years,

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frontal lobe stabilizes the little.

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It's complicated.

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Exactly.

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That's where I'm going with this.

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It's complicated. No, so really, the reason I thought we should have friend of the show, Ms. Courtney Robertson on today, is because there was so much discussion that stemmed really from a single tweet, a single sad, resigned.

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Almost 87,000 views now.

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Did it 70,000? 87 almost.

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Oh, I'm sorry, 87,000.

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87,000 people. Yeah, how many likes? Because they had a lot of likes.

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So you want to check that ratio.

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Should we share the message that you're referring to on the screen?

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Yes.

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So a longtime contributor, Ari, who I've not met, but Courtney, you have.

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Yeah, Ari is great.

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Yeah.

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That he gives up. This is just so like, like the, but Courtney, you have. Yeah, Ari is great. Yeah.

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That he gives up.

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This is just so like the captures the zeitgeist of the moment right now.

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It is unbelievable.

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So let me give a little background of Ari.

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Please do.

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Yeah, Ari is, so folks know about this, Ari is the one that took lead originally on the font library API work.

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So if you go through core posts and you look at that, Ari was the one contributing to that. Ari has a longtime Yost contributor was specifically at Yost the company in Core for quite some time, doing a good bit of work, I believe, on Gutenberg, not just font library APIs. And I got a chance to meet Ari at WordCamp EU last year. Yeah, last year. Briefly.

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And now that we're past pandemic, there's been a couple of WordCamp Europe's that I've

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gotten a chance to be at. And so I got to meet Ari there. And Ari also is now working for Mr. Yost, not Yost company, but Mr. Yost as in through Amelia Capital and is sponsored that way. So Ari wrote a tweet that says, I give up. I can no longer contribute to Gutenberg. I can't understand our code anymore.At this stage, it's alien to me. and it keeps getting more complex instead of simpler. I'm wasting too much

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time trying to understand what we do. Yeah. And you said he's, I mean, you know, he's been working

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on the font API. It's not like he's coming in fresh to any of this.

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Ari has been working on this stuff.

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Yeah, elbows deep for quite some time.

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And, you know, imagine how hard things are for a new contributor when long-time contributors are like, I don't get any of this. Yeah.

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So I believe Ari had just taken several months away from, at least Gutenberg might have taken that time away from contributing.

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So let's assume that within the last three months and had an amnesia.

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I think he probably still knows a good bit of React.

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I don't think he's lost the knowledge of the programming language.

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There's a couple of factors that we can dig into about what Ari's main points are.

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A super short summary.

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And we can then let this evolve into seeing how the

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community responded. A super short summary is that let's say that you just came back from an

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extended vacation or a sabbatical or whoa, whatever your reason is for being after a little

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while. And you come back and you start digging in. Your skills as a dev might be fractions

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of a second a little slow because

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you've been away for a bit, which is fine. But now it's time to get back in and get up to speed.

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And so what do you need? You need to know what file that you want to open. So that was part one of

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this big issue is locating which file because we have more and more dependencies,

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or what is the right word that I'm looking for,

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Kaspur, about when we have abstraction.

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Aggression jacking dolls.

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I think it's the events calendar method of building out.

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Right, you just put online in each file.

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It's the WordPress core version.

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Right, right, right.

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So as as part of, and just to kind of give folks a little bit of background on this,

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like the level and layer of things that need to be installed in order to make Gutenberg run

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in order to develop Gutenberg in order to test Gutenberg, in order to test Gutenberg.

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Like, you know, you have, you know, Node.js for the people who are, like, watching and listening,

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who aren't developers.

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You can have Node.js, like, install all of your dependencies for you.

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And, like, it'll just be like hey well I guess it's

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time to go make a pot of coffee because I'm going to wait for the next 10 minutes while Node.js

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like installs all this stuff. I you know work um do some work with the WordPress hosting team and

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the whole thing like when setting up a test environment,

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like the test runner that WordPress hosts run,

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I mean running an individual, like one of those tests,

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every time that there's a code change, which is what that project does, those individual test runs can go for, you know, 10 to 20 minutes, depending on what needs to be, you know, installed and run to like test those code changes.

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It's a lot.

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Now, update NPM.

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Great, you have issues. Update NPM. But it's more than that.

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It is also in that, you know, if someone says,

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oh, it's this one line of code, that's great, it's only one line of code. But where do you find that one line of code? Well, it's in this area, but oh, because of abstractions, you have to dig another layer deeper,another layer deeper, another layer deeper another layer deeper another layer deeper over to this other place to find the thing so that's step one but how do you find your way around this maze you have these inline documentation for that purpose but we're not doing a lot of the inline documentation as it would be along the way. Not saying we're not doing any. We're not doing what would have helped Ari to avoid feeling the way that he feels

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if you read into more of the messages around what Ari has shared.

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So we're not doing the inline documentation that would point people to why this is doing this.

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Where is the place that this is dependent on?

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And so it's making it harder for people that are even skilled and react

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to find the thing that they need to find to test fixing that one issue.

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So that's part of all of this.

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Okay, so obscurity in general of the actual code structure is one thing. But I think one of the other big things, you know, tech in general is always like it's this giant river and it's streaming. And if you get out of it, say, I don't know, to have a child or, you know, to take care of a relative or take a break, take a vacation. A lot of things or like another contributor, you know,

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serve in a war, get drafted into a war and then come back and try to figure out how PHP has changed. Like the tech river moves, moves, right? And the important thing has always

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been in tech, across the board, whether it's like custom-made stuff or large systems, is that people will be able to understand what they're looking at, right? And so if someone cannot leave

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for two to three months or six months, what that really means to me is that perhaps it's

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documentation. And, you know, speaking as a fan of change logs I see a variety of change logs and understanding the difference between one line of change this thing and an explanation of what actually changed so you can get a real sense of how the different versions have evolved. It makes a huge difference in even being able to understand if those changes apply to the code that you're dealing with. If I haven't updated, used a plugin in a while, you know, I try to go in and read the change log and be like, okay,what features have they added? What fixes have they added? Because maybe I had to do a workaround before for something else. And if I can't read that change log to understand what's happening, it's like I have to start all over again on even just with a plug-in. I would say though, I just want to share that

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I was thinking about, well, what's the change log of Gutenberg as you're talking? And it basically tells you to go over and look at stuff and GitHub. What I would actually point to is just dropped into our show chat here. The link to the Gutenberg 182 release, and that functions in that way a bit. When I think about the change logs and how I would turn those at the event's calendarinto actual release content for the customers that are developers to read and understand what has changed, that does exist. So I don't want to say that it's not, it's that in-line documentation is really the issuebecause we saw another message from Riyadh that came out. So yeah, we have Damien's leading on this 182 release, which is great. Damien's a Devrel at WP Engine. And so we see here's the information of what just changed in Gutenberg 182. For those that need some clarification, her plugin is released every other week, pretty much like clockwork. And all of those features after, when we get close to the next core release,the features that are out in the published version of the Gutenberg plugin get merged to core for the next big release. And that's kind of the way that this works.

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So people can run leading edge Gutenberg.

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People could run the Gutenberg plugin and test it. That's not really what Ari's issue is, is seeing from this side of it.

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What Ari's issue is is in the code. Right. Well, I mean, so here's the thing. That's nice,

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but if you have that level of documentation and change happening every two weeks, it doesn't really matter how amazing

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your documentation is. Plus, there's two things here. One, the people reading the Gutenberg change log, whatever it is, you know, what's new in Gutenberg. That's not customers. That's not users. That's not even WordPress developers who are building sites for people. That is literally core developers. So maybe, you know, do we need the, like, designing one with, like, here's, you know, your logo and all that stuff that we do for that. Here's the new version of WordPress.

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Like, here's the pretty headers and all that to show you the stuff.

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Like, I don't even know if that's what's

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important i would love to see some statistics on those being written like if that's not helpful

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to someone who is actually working on the code then i'm not really sure who it's helpful to because i'm not reading that because whatever goes into gutenberg is going to get pulled into wordpress and then i'm

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going to read that iteration of it because that is the iteration that's going to impact my work and what I'm working on.

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So speaking of abstraction, going out to the level of Gutenberg, that definitely is going to

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apply to plug-in developers primarily, I would say, right, so that they can kind of see what's coming down the pike.

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But what I've heard from every single plugin developer that I've ever talked to about this

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is that it is impossible to keep up with the level of change that is happening no matter how

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it's presented. If it's not documented well inline code, if it's being presented in a nice post, whatever it is, releasing so much information every two weeks and having extreme rapid code iteration is it's really hard to keep up.

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Like that is a whitewater like fast moving river. And if you get out of that river, it is going to be like, you know, a mile down the bank before you've even, you know, walk to your car.

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So I am with you a little bit there, say, however, the inline documentation, and this is where developers get tripped up.It's basically like you are being asked to decipher what the hell this code does.

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You are basically instead of, say, like walking around, you know, a neighborhood with clear street signs and, you know, signs on the

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buildings of what everything is. You're just thrown into like dirt roads, no signs. And you've kind of maybe got a map, but it's a hand-drawn map. And you only sort of know the area so you're like, wait, is this the right road that I'm turning on? Like what?

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Is that a street or an alley?

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I can't tell.

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Am I going the right way here? Like, what is? And, you know, you might have to backtrack. You might have to, like, having documentation in the actual code, which is a thing that, you know,

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because Gutenberg specifically has been moving so aggressively and adding all of these new features, you know, trying to basically get to the place where page builders, all the various page building like plug-ins out there, the ones that pave the way, the beaver builders, the divvy, you know, Elementor, etc., that have one-up on, you know, some of the usability.

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They have like five years. Yeah.

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They have so much.

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Yeah. They have so much. Yeah.

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They have.

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They have.

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They make up for five years of not being there, right?

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Like, and get it just cram it all in.

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I really feel that.

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That is absolutely what it feels like.

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It is, it is irresponsible, though, to be like, hey, we're going to build all of these new features and we are going to go ahead and uh you know add this and you know oh look at this cool new thing we're doing and uh you know everything else and just uh it's to me it's irresponsible to have poorly documented code in there where where a developer, who you want to keep building the future versions of this thing

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that you were trying to build to basically not at least stick up a road sign saying,

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like, hey, you know, that thing you're looking for, like go this way.

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Or, you know, here is what this little bit of code does or what it's supposed to do.

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So you don't spend a shitload of time trying to, you know, figure out, like, am I on the right path or am I, you know, just chasing waterfalls?

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So Nick here.

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Nick's comment there.

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Go ahead and say.

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So he's saying the inline docs explain

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decisions that have already been made, right? I actually really disagree with that. I do not think that is

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what inline docs should be doing. That is nothing to do with decisions. Inline docs are labeling

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things. Just like what we're saying. Like these are signs, signs and explanation. Not

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explanations of decisions.

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Just like yesterday I was, you know, changing a Google API, right?

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And I stick in stuff in my functions.

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I'm like, this is the Google API for this particular maps thing.

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Like I explained what it was.

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So if someone's looking through there, they'll be like, oh, what's this, you know,

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Google API code for? Well, look, I just told you it's right there. It says nothing about, you know,

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why we're using that API or what the decision process was for that API. It's just saying,

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this is what this is that is here. And so I kind of disagree that inline docs should explain

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decisions. I don't think that's something that belongs in documentation. I just think it's about labeling and explaining what is happening.

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I don't know that we want to split hairs too much on if it's like explaining a decision about why a file points over to somewhere else or not. Just that it, this is, here is why this is abstracted and where you can go for the rest of it. To that end, you know, in terms of other documentation, can we show Riyadh's message? So Riyadh saw this and Riyadh is one of the Gutenberg.

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I don't know his technical title, but he is full-time in Gutenberg working on things.

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And so during all of this conversation taking off, sponsored, sponsor contributor?

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Yes.

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Sponsored by?

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Automatic.

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Okay, just checking.

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So Riyadh said, hey, you don't understand something on Gutenberg's code base.

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Leave a reply to this thread,

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and we'll try to do my best to clarify it.

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So again, I'm assuming Riyadh may not be English first.

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This could be interpreted in two ways. It could be, oh, I see that we have some people that are confused, and so I'm trying to be helpful. Or it can be seen as tailspin of, no, this way is correct. And so we have a couple of related things. So also a former guest on the show, Triple J, John James Jacoby,who was a longtime core contributor, chimed in on Riyadh's message and said, why don't you document? That doesn't sound like he's interpreting it as Riyadh being helpful. It sounds like JJJ was sort of indicating you're trying to control the story and say that you made the right decisions along the way. As you look through a lot of Riyadh's, yeah, one of J's posts, Triple J's post says, asking for feedback and then just defending yourself is the best way to waste everyone's time. So there's a lot of ways that this

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could go. And so if you look through Riyadh's messaging, he points to already published

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dev docs and already created resources on LearnWP, which are helpful and good, except that, let's look at this chain. We have inline documentation. Then we get to the release posts that I shared one from Core. I'm the audience that looks at the core release posts to help assess what in Learn needs to be

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updated or does the docs team, like we're the audience of receiving that information so that we know all of the things that need to get updated. Also for people that are testing Gutenberg thoroughly like I run the Gutenberg plug on my site. I do read these types of things and it helps me get things ready for releases. The inline documentation is for the devs that are actively building, that their main role is to build Gutenberg. And so when inline documentation isn't right, of course it's going to be hard for an experienced person that just took some time off, but it's also going to be even that much harder for the occasional contributor to find the one little thing. How much more do they have to search if they are just even an occasional contributor?

Speaker 41527.76s - 1634.8s

I mean, I think it's an occasional contribution impossible. And, you know, I might argue. One might argue. Maybe I wouldn't argue, but one might argue that that could be intentional. Because, you know, there's been a lot of discussion about the marketing team, the WordPress marketing team, which is being disbanded. I don't know if, you know, there's been a lot of discussion about the marketing team, the WordPress marketing team, which is being disbanded. I don't know if, you know, we haven't really talked about that in the show. It's a bit of an emotional topic for me. But there was a lot of, there is, there continues to be, an extensive amount of marketing work for WordPress.org, the open source project, that does not happen on WordPress.org properties. And when one considers that the predominant number of full-timeGutenberg developers are in fact sponsored by the same company, and one has seen the evidence and the behavior that shows that discussions do happen on repositories and in slacks that are not open to non-employees. One might then begin to wonder if perhaps that documentation exists even, or if those explanations and that discussion is happening. It's just not happening within the WordPress project itself. And so for the full-time folks working on it who are sponsored by Automatic, perhaps they've got needed to have that level and answering questions in a Twitterfeed, a Twitter thread, which seems like a really wildly bizarre place to address this life documentation. That almost seems patronizing.

Speaker 31635.48s - 1639.02s

You know, like it's not just like, oh, you have a problem.

Speaker 41639.18s - 1680.4s

Let me help you. It's not like he was asking for like, you know, help figuring out some resources to learn how to code properly, right? He's making a fundamental, Ari, making a fundamental observation about patterns and the state of the actual code and the people who are not automaticians to contribute.And, you know, I gotta say, it's just, it's not great because Gutenberg is not even really within the WordPress project sphere.

Speaker 51680.96s - 1682.64s

It is, but it isn't.

Speaker 41682.64s - 1708.18s

It exists sort of in this gray area of, you know, not, like, like, 1550s here. It is, but it isn't. It exists sort of in this gray area of, you know, not like bigger than WordPress, right? And Matt, Nolan Webb, co-founder of WordPress, the project, has talked about this, right? He's talked about how Bigger will be bigger than WordPress. We've talked about it on the show. Gutenberg is used by Drupal.

Speaker 21709.76s - 1714.52s

Actually, I just saw a post from Dries, founder of Drupal this past week,

Speaker 41714.52s - 1717.2s

and they're talking about the next iteration.

Speaker 21717.5s - 1726.34s

They call theirs the, instead of calling it like a page builder or something, they call it like the layout builder, which I thought was interesting.

Speaker 51726.5s - 1732.94s

And they're at a decision-making process point right now in the Drupal project about moving that forward.

Speaker 21733.38s - 1782s

I mean, right now, I'm not sure that Gutenberg is fully integrated into their layout builder. But I think that they're looking at either a more complete adoption of Gutenberg or there is a competitor to that one. Plasmic, I think, was the name of it. There's a couple I just saw on his post. So, Jerez has a recent post. If you've heard of Jerez, you can find his blog and read about that.But I thought it was pretty interesting that there is still in that, should we fully adopt it or not? How should we do this? And to that, and I don't know if we have it too handy here in the links of tweet conversations that went on, but I shared one that my coworker James,longtime corkitter, had also posted.

Speaker 51783.38s - 1786.66s

Yeah, so Drew and I know each other.

Speaker 21786.94s - 1788.7s

We don't work in the same department.

Speaker 51789s - 1789.88s

Occasionally we chat.

Speaker 31790.3s - 1795.28s

Both of us are voices in the Twitter space that are from our own experience of

Speaker 51795.28s - 1797.76s

contributing to WordPress and not representing our employer.

Speaker 31797.92s - 1813s

I say this because we then both got into a conversation in this thread that kind of works with Matt. So Drew's post here, a lot of standards and practices for WordPress board development relaxed around 5.0 to allow for easier iteration and innovation in the Gutenberg project.

Speaker 21813s - 1827.92s

After seven years of development, isn't it time to reprioritize those standards? Matt did respond in this one, kind of asking for some clarification. And Drew iterated about the 80 20 rule of 80% of users

Speaker 41827.92s - 1834.72s

the 80 20 rule I want to talk about that more let's bring that back also let's do inline

Speaker 21834.72s - 1864s

documentation let's make sure that we're accessible by default those type of points and I thought that they were pretty solid it also got into a side conversation that stemmed out of all of this, that I saw Jorben participate in as well. And I thought points were handled. I will say, I think that as we're seeing all of this, this conversation unfold, people have handled it very factual and responsibly, I feel like. I mean, what I have liked to the way

Speaker 31864s - 1865.12s

messaging to come across. Wait, it be a bunch of hardcore devs.

Speaker 41866.68s - 1869.96s

Wait, it's a bunch of hardcore devs talking about inline documentation.

Speaker 21870.62s - 1873.92s

Inline document, which is amazing, first of all,

Speaker 41873.98s - 1878.4s

but like inline documentation is kind of a longstanding contentious point

Speaker 21878.4s - 1884.42s

within developers, the world, and more anyway, because, you know, it's always my thing,

Speaker 31884.46s - 1886.1s

do you document your code properly? Like been to do you document you know do you document

Speaker 21886.1s - 1892.86s

your code properly like how do you document your code like and so I mean some of that side

Speaker 41892.86s - 1899.82s

some of the side combo I want to kind of point out with Matt there though was that um the the conversation

Speaker 21899.82s - 1905.32s

evolved somewhere between Drew Jorben and I kind of jumped in a little bit on it, too, was,

Speaker 51911.6s - 1918.42s

what are we doing about, like, core leads? There used to be core leads like Nathan and Helen and a few others, and there's a page in the core handbook about some of this. These are now

Speaker 41918.42s - 1928.2s

seen primarily as historical roles, and Matt made mention to having a variety of non-automitians named as release leads.

Speaker 21928.52s - 1931.06s

People were then asking for clarification about that.

Speaker 41931.18s - 1935.88s

And then Matt kind of responded that he views release leads as to people that are in the

Speaker 51935.88s - 1936.88s

noteworthy contributor.

Speaker 21937.12s - 1963.66s

There was like a photo of four faces in there of who Matt would deem as the release leads. And so there was a, basically just was asking for, can we update the page in the core handbook? And can we be consistent then and how we show this in the about page? You know, like, I'm not making a huge issueout of some of these sides parts of the conversation. It's all connected.

Speaker 51963.66s - 1966.18s

But there's side conversations related to the Gutenberg

Speaker 41966.18s - 1967.64s

conversation too.

Speaker 51968.52s - 1970.92s

It's all fair requests.

Speaker 41971.22s - 1974.5s

This is the same problem.

Speaker 01974.74s - 1975.62s

Exactly what Drew.

Speaker 41976.22s - 1979.46s

And to be honest, Ari is asking for is,

Speaker 01980.02s - 1981.48s

and I hate to say this word,

Speaker 41981.86s - 1983.06s

it's governance.

Speaker 01984.22s - 1987.44s

It doesn't even have to be governance that isn't the project.

Speaker 41987.54s - 1997.24s

Like, it's not external. It's just policies, having policies that people know about and that we follow. That's what it is.

Speaker 51997.24s - 2003.84s

That's all that, like, governance doesn't have to be this, like, political revolution, like, you know, come for blood kind of deal.

Speaker 02003.94s - 2010.8s

That's really not what it's supposed to be about. This is about, this is a project. These are its policies. These are

Speaker 42010.8s - 2065.64s

what we do. You know, like we, like, when, when WordPress is in violation of its own stated philosophies, like, no one knows what to do with this. Like, we don't, we don't know where to put it in our brains. And I think that is what is causing the current level of said aforementioned existential crisis because that 80-20 rule, which I have checked is still on the website, and maybe now no longer will be there. I'll just get disappeared off the internet. I've checked it a few times, the out page on the dot org site, just to see if it's been you know being disappearedslowly but surely but the 80-20 rule which is that the things that should be in core should be useful and used by 80% of the users and there have been some wild things put into core like I don't know let's just pick an uncontroversial one, like, duotone.

Speaker 22067.56s - 2070.24s

They have not, like, there's no... Post-formats is the most known one of them all.

Speaker 42072.24s - 2072.9s

Which one?

Speaker 02073.58s - 2075.06s

Post-format.

Speaker 42075.66s - 2077.1s

Okay, but post-format.

Speaker 02077.6s - 2079.16s

First of the people in the back and hear you.

Speaker 52079.46s - 2087.9s

That was probably way before an 80-20 rule even existed. And second of all, the post-formats could be used by 80, you know what I mean?

Speaker 42087.9s - 2124.46s

Like, because of just the variation of the post formats, it could be used by 80%. There's no way that 80% of a website builder market is all going to use the same design choice on an image. Like, that's just preposterous. They're all going to use the same design choice on an image. Like, that's just, that's just preposterous. Like, that is literally bonkersauce.80%. Okay, this is what it says. Rule of thumb. Rule of thumb. That's interesting. I don't know that it said that before. But the rule that maybe it did.The rule of thumb is that the core should provide features that 80% or more of end use will actually appreciate and use.

Speaker 02125.12s - 2128.04s

That's close enough to what I remember it as to not contest it.

Speaker 52128.44s - 2130.8s

But I don't know if that applies to duo tone.

Speaker 02130.96s - 2133.56s

I certainly don't think it applies to things like the footnote block.

Speaker 42134.94s - 2138.68s

I don't think the title of that header,

Speaker 02138.92s - 2144.14s

clean, lean, and mean, even applies to, I mean, think about the conversation we're having.

Speaker 42144.14s - 2188.6s

Yeah, we're like, it's not clean, mean, and lean. Like, this is the problem. We are not, we are not living up to our own values, our own stated in all areas of the project. And that includes Gutenberg. Like if Gutenberg is meant to be open and we're going to have all these people contributing to it and it's even bigger than WordPress because it's this revolutionary block editor that you can use everywhere.Why on earth would we be making it more and more obscure? There is no explanation for that that is aligned with our stated values and policies as a project. Like does not compute.

Speaker 02189.24s - 2202.94s

Now, okay, I'll ask this for all of us because we've been around a while, but I'll specifically ask Courtney, and I'm not, you can say pass on this if you want

Speaker 52202.94s - 2229.66s

to, but do you feel that some of the less commented code that would be going into some WordPress components today would have made it into an earlier version of WordPress, say 3.0, 4.0, any of those branches.

Speaker 02229.66s - 2246.64s

Do any of you feel like if somebody turned around and put in, you know, a patch that they wouldn't get it just thrown back, you know, in the track ticket if it was not documented? own back, you know, in the track ticket if it was not documented.

Speaker 42249.54s - 2251.64s

I don't know about that.

Speaker 22253.12s - 2255.92s

I love you saying.

Speaker 02262.26s - 2262.58s

I'm thinking about one, this was not necessarily going back to pre-Gootenberg,

Speaker 22265.02s - 2265.2s

but even during the Gutenberg release cycle,

Speaker 02269.4s - 2269.96s

I just saw that Aruba shared a message recently,

Speaker 42272.22s - 2272.72s

that Aruba's message was,

Speaker 22279.38s - 2280.94s

oh, look, somebody else besides me submitted an idea for duplicate post. Yeah.

Speaker 52283.6s - 2284.44s

I had done so two years ago and got declined.

Speaker 22285s - 2292.9s

Now, in this case, the person that submitted it to have a duplicate post button available so that

Speaker 52292.9s - 2299.9s

if you want to clone your post, you can easily do so, the person is employed by automatic.

Speaker 22299.9s - 2387.88s

I've already internally raised the issue to, like I've raised to an internal automation to say, red flag, I see that here is where Aruba already originally logged the idea. And I've seen that Anne has recently commented on Aruba's logged idea within the past day. I called out that when I shared this with somebody that I trust that is an automatic employee to say, you know, this doesn't help the look of things. When folks are calling this out, I said this doesn't, when you see a man at automatic submit the very same idea.And now it's already in line to be shipped into six-six. same idea and now it's already in line to be shipped into six six that that's certainly not helpful whether that was intentional or not we need to recognize that the idea Aruba had logged two years ago is related to this in the process of that and so why is it now easier to do as opposed to two years in Gutenberg, two years ago in Gutenberg? Why was it to climb when Aruba submitted it? Is it a sponsored, unsponsored, a gender thing?In this case, I'm reluctant to think that there was any cultural, racial ideas to this, just because I don't know this particular automatician employee, but he doesn't strike me as like being a typical North American white dude getting his way.

Speaker 02389.24s - 2392.32s

Sorry, Tucker and Kaspur, but yeah, there's that.

Speaker 42392.62s - 2397.98s

So I don't think it's a racial issue, but I do see it as maybe a sponsored unsponsored and

Speaker 02397.98s - 2404.98s

possibly a gender issue in terms of initial perception of Aruba's message versus what's

Speaker 52404.98s - 2405.44s

getting shipped.

Speaker 22405.66s - 2427.9s

I could be mistaken, but I share those concerns with the people that I trust to make sure that Arupa does get credited on this and to say, this is not helpful for the look of what we see happening in Gutenberg while everything's being called out right now. This is not a benefit to saying we're listening and we care is to I mean screw we're listening

Speaker 42427.9s - 2433.52s

and we care how about we are open and we accept contributions from people just like we say we do

Speaker 32433.52s - 2439.16s

because we're an open source project instead of being a complete elitist gate kept thing that's

Speaker 52439.16s - 2445.06s

only available to more and more full-time sponsoredsponsored employees from one company.

Speaker 42445.2s - 2445.84s

Right.

Speaker 22446.7s - 2447.12s

There's that.

Speaker 42447.74s - 2447.98s

There's that.

Speaker 22448.16s - 2448.26s

Yeah.

Speaker 42454.3s - 2460.82s

I really think it has a, you know, there's, there is no way that there is not, there is at all times a gender role, not a gender role thing, but like a gender disparity at play.

Speaker 52460.82s - 2466.84s

And that really is prevalent just in every interaction, especially with

Speaker 22466.84s - 2473.98s

suggestions and tech forums like this. So 100% of that. But in terms of why this feature is

Speaker 52473.98s - 2479.54s

suddenly useful and an automatician might be jumping in in there and popping it in, that has,

Speaker 22479.54s - 2485.6s

to me, a lot more to do with WordPress.com and what it's trying to be to its user.

Speaker 42485.6s - 2488.54s

It's going back to the less calypso interface.

Speaker 22488.82s - 2489.4s

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 42489.4s - 2492.06s

And more to the native org interface.

Speaker 22492.26s - 2497.72s

Right, which means that it is going to try to be, you know,

Speaker 42498.1s - 2501.02s

that the software needs to be better. Surprise, surprise.

Speaker 02501.38s - 2503.22s

And things like duplicating post,

Speaker 52503.32s - 2508.9s

which definitely 80% of users might use and find useful

Speaker 02508.9s - 2518.74s

versus, say, I don't know, again, duotone, the idea that that is now useful to automatic slash

Speaker 42518.74s - 2577.36s

WordPress.com, and that is why its prioritization is happening. That, to me, makes more sense than anyone even thought about Aruba what had been happening. Like the likelihood that they were like, I don't think in this case it was like, let's steal that idea or anything. It was just like, oh, we need this feature now, so we're just going to go ahead and put it in there. Because it's really these issues and these discussions that emerge on the public open source repos, a lot of them feel like they have been previously discussed.I know that's definitely the case for a lot of the quote-unquote proposal that get put out by some groups. Like, for example, the Media Corps proposal that was put out by the director of the project josepha who uh just put onto the marketing blog that the marketing team was changing and this was a proposal that's a proposal that's not a proposal because it's a proposal that's happening and had been

Speaker 02577.36s - 2583.2s

in discussion apparently and whatever but not discussed with the team not discussed openly

Speaker 42583.2s - 2648.56s

and now is being posted for comments and feedback, but not really because it's already happening. So again, I'm pulling that back to there is a discussion happening that is not being documented. And so whether the decisions might be being documented in the core posts, the what's new in Gutenberg. They're not being documented in the inline documentation because even the things aren't even being labeled in the inline documentation.But I do think that it's, I do think that it is the same problem in both areas. I think that this is the stomach. And I think that the number of people running up against this wall of where are these conversations happening and who's making these decisions and who's driving the trainthat we're on um that's what we all keep hitting up against and you know what when you hit up against that and you're like well I can't get any further. The next car is locked. So I can't see who's driving the locomotive.

Speaker 32649.22s - 2650.12s

You know what happens?

Speaker 42650.32s - 2651.84s

You get off the train.

Speaker 52652.66s - 2653.42s

That's what happens.

Speaker 42653.86s - 2686.56s

And I think that that is a intentional feature and not a bug. And I think that a lot of us, all of us want to approach it as if it's a bug and we want to fix it and we want to say, hey, here's all the ways we could do this better. But if the goal is not in fact to do that better, then maybe we are all just wasting our time, like Jake said. So many big thoughts and feelings.

Speaker 52686.56s - 2688.4s

It's been a week of like,

Speaker 22688.4s - 2692s

oh, WordPress 21, oh, in the house.

Speaker 52692s - 2697.84s

It's a lot to think through and to sort of weigh.

Speaker 22697.84s - 2702.72s

So my comments to the original message Ari put out is,

Speaker 52702.72s - 2705.4s

okay, we've had this many views on your message.

Speaker 42707.44s - 2719.22s

How do we, can we at this point, because it got so much coverage, can we take that back to the official spaces and see any actionable change come out of this?

Speaker 22719.84s - 2722.32s

And I'm still stewing on that thought.

Speaker 42723.12s - 2728.38s

Me, looking around. Oh, no, I don't see. But I'm still stewing on that thought. Me, looking around. Oh, no, I don't see. But I'm here anyway.

Speaker 52728.56s - 2734.84s

So I guess I have some sort of like vain hope that with enough of us speaking up with

Speaker 22734.84s - 2737.86s

enough of the ecosystem that let's be real.

Speaker 42737.86s - 2781.46s

This is not a one company ecosystem. Okay. As much as some of us might like to think that it is, it is not. That is, I actually looked it up recently. WordPress is a, I believe it's $567 billion ecosystem. Anyone? I don't know, folks. And you know what? That's not all one company.As much as that one company wants to think that it's all them. So, you know, I guess there is a political revolutionary message. First of all, you know, there's more of us than there are of them, maybe, because, you know, I don't know. And also hired soldiers are never as good as soldiers who are volunteering out of passion. That's all I'm saying.

Speaker 52784.2s - 2790.08s

So it's up to us, right? We all see the writing on the wall or the lack of writing in the

Speaker 42790.08s - 2799.9s

documentation. The lack of writing on the code, we should say. And we all know that it's there. We're all reading these tweets. We all see the same thing.

Speaker 12801.28s - 2826.16s

Do you guys feel that the idea of this is that because of the fact that Gutenberg is doing what it's doing, that people have then continued on and even probably even doubled and tripled down on alternative page builders and stuff like that where those are still prevalent and it's just like, we're still using divvy, we're still using builder, we're still using this, we're still using that.

Speaker 42826.66s - 2828.8s

And they're like, oh yeah, but when I write a blog post,

Speaker 12828.8s - 2832.24s

I accidentally use Gutenberg to write it.

Speaker 42833s - 2841.52s

I mean, for all my client sites, even ones where I'm using other page builders, I'm using the block editor on post. It's just, you know,

Speaker 52841.58s - 2853.88s

because the block editor is great for styling text layout, right? It's better than a word doc. It's better than Google, right? Google Doc for laying out a document or a page.

Speaker 42854.32s - 2865.28s

But that is different from abstracting again into an entire site. Those are, you know, that that's a more philosophical discussion about the site editor in general.

Speaker 02865.82s - 2870.24s

But I think, you know, Gutenberg is on its own track.

Speaker 32870.38s - 2871.54s

It is on its own train.

Speaker 02871.66s - 2875.12s

It is being run fast and hot and quick.

Speaker 42875.76s - 2878.78s

And WordPress is just gulping it down.

Speaker 32879.32s - 2883.84s

Like literally whatever Gutenberg shoves in WordPress is taking.

Speaker 42883.84s - 2898.64s

And that sounded really way more odd than I intended to do. But like that's what's happening. Like there's been this ongoing discussion with every release. It's like, oh, which version of the latest Gutenberg are we going to put in here?

Speaker 02898.68s - 2915.46s

And it's like, oh, is it we're taking this latest version or this latest version? And there have been multiple problems with releases that are probably connected to that with the 0.1, 02 thing being skipped. Like I feel like there's, I don't know, maybe there's not a connection there,

Speaker 42915.46s - 2953.8s

but I feel like there's a connection there in terms of the input level of Gutenberg at the very last minute that has definitely derailed multiple releases for WordPress because something that is brand new in Gutenberg broke. I mean, like, but the policy is to put the absolute latest cutting edge version that comes out, like in like, like something nuts, like at the release candidate one or something like that like that's when they'relike okay now we won't take in any new Gutenberg code like what are you wild like

Speaker 32953.8s - 2957.24s

that's why so many of they've added extra betas

Speaker 22957.24s - 2966.76s

so um come and hot off the printer and then just being sucked right in, like without any time for

Speaker 42966.76s - 2969.86s

processing or even testing properly.

Speaker 52970.92s - 2971.1s

Yeah.

Speaker 42971.1s - 2971.5s

Yeah.

Speaker 52971.5s - 2975.9s

Brin's portion into the project or quote unquote discussion.

Speaker 42976.98s - 2977.2s

Yeah.

Speaker 52977.68s - 2980.96s

Brian Quartz has been very eager to call out.

Speaker 22981.54s - 3004.5s

Oh, and for the audio listeners, my dog has joined the show. She has a little white multapoo, and she's sitting on my lap so that she doesn't bark at the neighbor's getting a delivery of something. I don't know. So Brian Quartz has been calling out. Let's do a full release that solely focuses on polish and improvements that doesn't add new features that,

Speaker 33004.5s - 3017.88s

you know, what if we we what if we do a release where the whole point is to improve inline documentation and accessibility adding no new features just continuing to improve these areas of the project that we know we

Speaker 23017.88s - 3024.24s

absolutely need to tweak further and that idea is getting a little more traction but

Speaker 03024.24s - 3046.02s

we also understand why that is hard to do and contributors be contributors they will pick and choose what they wish to work on sometimes that is true when you are both sponsored and unsponsored if you are wildly passionate about post formats the way that Cosper and I are and you decide you want to get post formats working with the block theme,

Speaker 23046.6s - 3119.04s

okay, well, off you go, go ahead, contribute. And when it's ready, it will, it will, but I also see the value in saying, we're going to take a couple of releases and just focus on inline docs, accessibility, you know, the things that we're all crying out for to have those specific areas to improve. And I think if we did that, we would lose news cycle hype about how great WordPress is, potentially. But we would get internal, in the community, influencer bubble people to say,wow, this is so helpful, so beneficial. And I would love to see that type of thing come from this situation, where maybe we do really look inwardly and not ship more features, not rush onto Phase 3 Gutenberg, Dashboard, Media Library, all the things. You know, Gutenberg's coming for the rest of WordPress, and we know that, but let's not leave itso that eventually all of WordPress is Gutenberg and all of WordPress is missing inline documentation and is not accessible. We can't have that as an editing experience. We can't have that as a developer experience.

Speaker 43119.04s - 3123.08s

I'm sorry, we have that right now, just to frame it out.

Speaker 23123.26s - 3124.9s

So we do not want to keep that.

Speaker 43130.2s - 3133.9s

That is, sorry. We don't have it for everything. So for instance, we still have the classic editor plugin available and it helps people that

Speaker 23133.9s - 3163.36s

have need of screen readers especially. They can have an accessible experience by installing the classic editor and writing posts that way. It's an option. It's not a good option. A lot of the other parts of WordPress course code that is not a Gutenberg experience. I'm venturing to guess, although I should do my homework and go read and look. I'm guessing that there is some more additional pointers in the inline documentation for folks in non-Gutenberg parts of WordPress right now.

Speaker 43164.88s - 3229.94s

Yeah, well, I mean, it would be nice to have everyone. I think that is maybe the intention that I've heard expressed from Josepha in the past, although the problem is last year the Polish episode, Polish release, which, by the way, polishing is not the same. Polishing features is not the same thing as a release that focuses on documentation and, you know, accessibility and ensuring that contributors are, you know, being kept up to date. Like those are not the same thing. But last year for the 6-4 release, it was both touted as the underrepresented contributor release and the polishing release.So that was really bad. Well, again, maybe intentional, maybe not. We're like, oh, we're not going to work on as many new features because maybe we don't want underrepresented contributors to be weighing in on those features as much. I don't know. There's some more gatekeeping for you, but the gatekeeping is real.

Speaker 03230.4s - 3248.54s

And asking underrepresented people, especially specifically female representing, you know, presenting folks to clean shit up. Come on.

Speaker 43248.82s - 3254.76s

I got so upset about that. I was like, really, this is a clean and polished one for the, and at that point we were calling it,

Speaker 53254.82s - 3258.28s

I think we ended up calling it women and non-binary or it was at that point.

Speaker 03258.28s - 3262.48s

And I was like, the women and non-binary release squad is focusing on cleaning and polishing.

Speaker 53263.14s - 3263.92s

That's great.

Speaker 43264.28s - 3264.66s

Cool.

Speaker 03265.24s - 3273.4s

Glad to be thought about that. To rewind for half a second to Courtney pointing out that basically

Speaker 43273.4s - 3280.36s

people being told for better accessibility, you can install the classic editor and just use

Speaker 03280.36s - 3299.96s

the classic editor. That's like saying, hey, I know that there are all of these sidewalks around here and we have some folks who need curb cuts where the curb dip so they can get down. But just a little ways down, there's a driveway. You can just, you know, roll down that instead.

Speaker 33300.46s - 3305.22s

And then just being in the street for a minute. You'll be fine. Right. No, no. Curb cuts.

Speaker 03313.04s - 3322.2s

Like, make everybody a first-class citizen because eventually everybody is going to need accessibility. You, I, everyone here, everyone listening, everyone watching is going to. All our old millennials are going to need screen readers.

Speaker 43322.46s - 3323s

Like, come on.

Speaker 03323.52s - 3330.08s

On a long enough timeline, you are going to need accessibility features too.

Speaker 43330.68s - 3334.56s

Like, accessibility is coming for you.

Speaker 03334.88s - 3336.02s

You are going to.

Speaker 33336.02s - 3340.4s

That would be an amazing t-shirt. Another t-shirt exclusive here at WordCamp.

Speaker 03340.66s - 3342s

Yeah, like, please.

Speaker 33342.48s - 3344.94s

Who are we? Water cooler. She's lovely.

Speaker 03344.94s - 3350.5s

Start treating. Start treating accessibility as, as first five.

Speaker 13351.4s - 3351.84s

Yeah.

Speaker 03351.96s - 3352.92s

It's only 11 years.

Speaker 13353.02s - 3354.06s

Say, if you're fine.

Speaker 03354.32s - 3355.92s

Yeah, you'll learn my name too eventually.

Speaker 13356.08s - 3356.44s

That's good.

Speaker 03356.68s - 3357.5s

We're doing well here.

Speaker 13357.64s - 3358.64s

Anyway, we love you all.

Speaker 43358.78s - 3359.74s

And I think it's been a long-

Speaker 03359.74s - 3361s

We can just call you another Jason.

Speaker 43361.3s - 3362.12s

And that would simplify.

Speaker 23362.32s - 3362.78s

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 13362.98s - 3363.7s

I know, right?

Speaker 43363.98s - 3364.92s

It's her middle name.

Speaker 13365.28s - 3369.9s

Jason. I'm trying. All right. We love, we got to go. We love you.

Speaker 43370.2s - 3371.44s

Hang out with us in our Slack.

Speaker 23372.26s - 3373.36s

Thanks for coming on.

Speaker 43374s - 3375.86s

Wait, what? What's the Slack address?

Speaker 23375.86s - 3377.56s

It's our watercooler Slack.ll. L.L.

Speaker 43378.38s - 3379.74s

Oh, there it is. Gotcha.

Speaker 23379.74s - 3381.04s

I think we'll find my way over.

Speaker 43381.5s - 3383.38s

It's, if you know, you know, you know.

Speaker 23384.02s - 3390.66s

Thanks for coming on and helping us dissect the complicated relationship status between Gutenberg and WordPress.

Speaker 43391.34s - 3400.14s

And shout out for the title because I love it as an elder millennial who existed in the relationship.

Speaker 23400.14s - 3404.66s

It's not, I mean, at the time when Facebook had it, I didn't actually ever use it.

Speaker 43405.14s - 3411.5s

I kind of wish I had, but you know, you never know. I wish they had it now. It would be better. Hope.

Speaker 13411.68s - 3412.46s

Yeah, all have a good one.

Speaker 43412.8s - 3413.32s

Well, goodbye.

Speaker 13415.6s - 3421.26s

So go over to our website at daypwatercler.com slash subscribe to subscribe to this content right here.

Speaker 43421.4s - 3429.78s

We'd really appreciate it. You can find us wherever it is that the internet has us post these things and come hang out with us over there. We would appreciate it. If you

Speaker 13429.78s - 3437.72s

like this stuff, subscribe. If you didn't like this stuff, then post about it on socials because you know, it's good. See you all later. Bye-bye.