812: Seed Borne Diseases - A Seed Chat with Bill McDorman

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Greetings urban farmers, gardeners, and healthy food visionaries. Farmer Greg here and welcome to the 812 episode of the Urban Farm ORG podcast, where every day we work together to educate and inspire you to become part of your food revolution. Welcome, welcome, everybody, Greg Peterson from Urban Farm ORG You and the Urban Farm podcast. We are here tonight with Bill McDormon PERSON. Hello, Bill PERSON.Hello, hello, everyone. Happy to be here as usual. Yeah, love that we get to do these. I get to catch up with you at least once a month, which is awesome. Yeah. So tonight, we are talking about seed-borne diseases.Seed-borne diseases quietly jeopardize the vitality of crops as seeds unwittingly harbor microscopic threats like fungi, bacteria, and pests. We're going to help you identify these pesky pests and guide you through the measures to screen for disease-resistant seeds to thwart these covert

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adversaries. Oh my gosh. There we go. I wish I could do that. I'm not always very good at it, but I do have some general principles to start with. I think that could save people a lot of steps around these sorts of things. And I'll talk about the ones that I have learned to identify. How's that?

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Good.

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Yeah, first of all, I noticed that there can be almost, I call it an irrational fear about this. Yes.

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When people first hear about it.

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And it's understandable if you are, again, an industrial scale farmer. This is part of the scale problem. Oh, yes. It can have some devastating consequences if you only have three tomato plants and all three of them get wiped out in your yard. But it's not your livelihood. Right. It's not millions of dollars. And you have to put it in perspective. And if you're growing three different kinds of tomatoes, there's a good chance. One of them, if not two of them, will be resistant or could be.Again, as small-scale people, we get to have more freedom around these things. As far as general things to learn about seed-borne diseases, there's Westcott ORG's a big, thick manual. At one point, I did a lot of research. And it probably costs $75 now. Oh, wow.

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If you want to buy it.

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And they've got a lot of pictures and descriptions and whatever of all the plant diseases that you can find. And they detail which ones are seedborn. So if you're on your way to get a master's WORK_OF_ART for this stuff, there are resources for you. However,what I found is I just didn't use it very much. And I'll tell you why. It's because almost all of those problems are very regionally, if not neighborhood, bounded.

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And so when you have a problem,

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you can get way more good information about what to do and the

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extent of the problem and how much damage it's going to cost by asking your neighbors first

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to see if they're having the same problem. And then this is the key that I learned. This is where the whole county extension, even master gardener program, really kicks in. I have a lot of questions about that program and the resources they use and some of their ties to chemicals and the use of chemicals sometimes because I didn't really want to do that. But around seedborne diseases, they have access usually to state labs and can get reallydefinitive information for you. And that's the first step. Find out exactly what's wrong with what's going on with your crops. And the best way to do that is ask your local expert. And the land grant college system was set up. Lincoln started it, and then it got more funding later clear up into the 50s, so every state could have a center of agricultural learning to answer questions like this. And then those, they quickly found out in each state, if you live in Texas or Arizona GPE, where we have people farming at 7,000 feet and people farming down in the desert,you need some diversity within your state to answer questions, and that's where the county extension agents come from. They're extensions of the university in your state that is the agricultural college.

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And so, ask your county extent.

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They've been paid since the 1800s to figure these kinds of things out. And they're usually ahead of the game and can answer your questions about what's going on. So that's the easy answer. And it took me a long time to figure that out. So if you don't know that and you're one of those do-it-yourself people, you're trying to do everything on your own, then you could run into trouble.Yeah.

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Interesting, you should say the cooperative extension agent, when I got here, we've got four

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acres right outside of Asheville and we're turning it into a farm. It was four acres and we're

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farming it. And I met shortly after we arrived. I met with Megan PERSON, our cooperative extension agent. And she spent an hour here. I was telling what we were up to. And I have another appointment with her on Thursday to see our progress after two years. And there's been a couple of times where I just picked up the phone and called her and said, hey, what's going on here? And she was very helpful. See, so there's a lesson in this, right? You're Greg Peterson

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of the urban farm. You've been doing this longer than anybody, right? Oh, yes. Yeah. You're the expert.

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You're the guy that they hire to answer questions. And yet you're largely because I would say you're in a

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new location. Exactly. You're reaching out.

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Smart.

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You're reaching out to the people locally that could help you most to get up and running around what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. That's the lesson for everyone, especially around seaborne diseases.

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Lori PERSON says, wondering about verticillium wilt.

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What is that for us?

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They're bacterial pathogens that get into plants. And it's one of the

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most common. And there's, if I remember correctly, and I, somebody could maybe correct me, if I'm wrong, there are hundreds of variations. And back in the day, when I was first getting going, it would get into tomatoes. It would get into some of the other leafy crops.

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I'm trying to remember if spinach was one of those.

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It's either verticillium or fusarium. Those are both the number one and number two. And there was a time when you could open up Johnny ORG's selected feed catalog, and they would tell you if their varieties were resistant to either or both.

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And sometimes they were. And then it started getting complicated.

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There was verticillium one and verticillium two. And then there were other variations. So it's always been that kind of a game, right? You get a resistance, and then the pathogen finds a way around your resistance.

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So it mutates slightly.

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So verticillium wilt is caused by the soil-borne fungi.

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Oh, it's a fungus.

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All right.

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Thank you.

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Both infect a wide range of garden plants through the roots and then grow upwards in the water conducting tissues, causing wilt of the upper parts due to water stress.

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There you go.

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And what was the other one?

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Fusarium. Oh, yes. And that's a particular interest to me now because that's a particular interest to me now because that gets into green.

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So fusarium wilt is also a fungal-borne disease.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, they're both fungal-based.

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There are a lot of resistant varieties.

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One of the first things that people will tell you,

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or maybe your extension agent will tell you, is we'll ask you actually if you're top watering.

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Oh, yes. Almost all of my will problems went away when I stopped watering.

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And I don't know how that affected the spread, maybe, or not.

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That's the first thing to do is if you can get into drip or keep the top share plants dry or at least dry them out before early evening, afternoon, early evening when it gets

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cooler and more conducive to fungus, then you'll avoid a lot of those problems.

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Step two is then to find, if you really have the problem, is to find resistant varieties.

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And as I said, there's a lot of them out there, if that, in that's, especially in tomatoes,

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but you can find it in all sorts of other crops. I haven't looked at a Johnny's catalog now for about three or four years,

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but they used to have a key. And everything they sold, if it was resistant, they would tell you. Be a little F, F1, F2 PRODUCT, something like that.

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I guess it was the fusarium wilt that hit our tomatoes here. Interestingly, so I have a really wild story.

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We planted 160 fruit trees last summer of 2023, and I used a handful of worm castings

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from my worm bag on each of the plants.

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And what happened was is that tomato plants grew out in the rows with the fruit trees.

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So I actually had tomato plants coming up in the fruit tree rows.

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Right. Wow.

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From the worm castings. Oh.

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And at one point last summer, July, August, September, October,

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we were harvesting five pounds of tomatoes a day.

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And one of the things that happened also is the tomatoes that we were watering in our garden

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were getting this black wilt that happened to them.

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The ones out in the rows of fruit trees that were just surviving on rainwater didn't get that.

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Wow. So that is a watering thing. Yeah. That's cool

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that you figured it out. Yeah. That you had an A-B, you know, you had some one way and some the other way,

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and I always recommend that people do that. That's a soil-borne disease. What seed-borne diseases are there that?

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Well, fusarium and verticillium can be seed-borne.

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Oh.

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And so that's why you want to be careful. If you've got varieties that are getting hit, don't save those seeds.

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And don't get those seeds or plants in and around your other stuff.

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If you have disease, pull the whole plants

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and get rid of them and then wash your hands. You don't want to go back out and start touching stuff. Somebody told me that if I got fusarium in my soul, I'd be there for three years or whatever

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and everything would be. And I've never had that problem. It's never lasted for me. And maybe that's

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because of the drip irrigation, rotating crops.

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All those are good practices to help avoid those sorts of things.

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Yeah.

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So I, it's, and here's the other thing about, and I think this pertains.

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And those of you listening can get a chuckle over this if you want. But you're sitting here talking to two people that live in one of the dry, Greg lived in Phoenix for all those years at the Irvine Farm ORG.

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55 years, man. I've been in Cornville, Arizona for 17, 18 years, and least likely place to have

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diseases like this, simply because it gets so dry. It's hot and dry. Almost all of the really bad ones happen in areas that are more moist, that have higher humidity, especially

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during the growing season. And so you're probably now getting your education in disease.

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Big time, big time.

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We've been here two years now, and it's been interesting to watch the level of disease that is here.

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Yeah.

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There's a lot of water.

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We get 7 to 12 inches a year in the low desert. We get 40 to 50 inches a year here. So that brings on a lot. And the incidence of all kinds of pestilence and disease are much greater here.

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Yeah. And it is water then also. And we're starting to see this with climate change. I am,

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even in Cornville GPE growing grain.

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I'm getting rain when I don't want it or need it. Grain is the perfect food for fungus. And the history of fungus in grain is famous, right? That's where there's great stories out there about the Salem GPE witch trials. Ergot, a different fungus got into the grain. And air got mold produces LSD or lysergic acid. Oh my gosh.

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And so there's really good scientific documentation that the Salem GPE witch trials happened

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because there was an ergot breakout. And Salem Mass.

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That was tied and they know what the weather was like

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that year. It was an unusually wet late summer that would have caused it. And then the symptoms

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of these women who had visions and went absolutely mad, so to speak, and were hung as witches

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because of this mold that got into their grain. And so if you want to dig into that story, it's really a fascinating one.

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The seedborne disease or the disease that concerns me with migraines is fusarium.

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And I've been around enough grain people now, and I didn't know this, is that if you're around it and you're experienced and you don't have a lot of it, you can see it because it turns your kernels pink. And it's a slightly off pink color. And that was really a wake up for me, especially in wheat. And you can lay, again, the advantages of being a small scale grower.If you're hand threshing and you clean your grain, you lay it out, you can pick out the pink.

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You should be careful about the whole amount and maybe not plant anything in that lot back into your field

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because you may not get them all and then you're replanting it. But still, you can get rid of enough of it to eat your crop.

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At least that's what I was told.

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So that's an interesting, the visual.

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I'd never known that you could actually visually see it on the seats,

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but that's a real wake-up. And I'm going to do more research around that. Wow.

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So damping off is also a seed-borne disease, is it not?

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Damping off is a fungus that attacks the young stems first come out of the ground and eat through them so they fall off. And so keeping moisture away from your soil surface is the key there, if you can't. Yeah.

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So let's talk about for seeds, what do we need to do? I guess number one is if we are experiencing this, you already mentioned, pull the plants out, ideally with gloves, throw the gloves away, and dispose of

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the plant that way. What about buying seeds? Nobody wants to be the person that sells you seeds that are diseased. Yeah. And there's a huge backline. I mean, each state has different rules. In Idaho GPE, I had to keep samples of every lot of seed that I sold so that if somebody did have a problem, I would get a call. And this only happened in 28 years. It happened twice. I got a callfrom a county extension agent that was helping saying, hey, look, we traced this back to your seeds. And I said, okay, when were they purchased? Then I could link because of the day it's back to the lot. And I would have a sample of the lot and I could

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send that in and get them tested to see if it actually came from the seeds. And in the cases where I was

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accused, both times there were no diseases on the sample of seeds that I had stored. That doesn't

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mean that they weren't on there when I shipped them, but just on the sample there weren't.

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At least in the West LOC, it's a pretty rare occurrence. As far as you introducing seeds. The other thing then is that if you have some sort of organization to your seeds, and you have a problem, don't plant any more of those. That just makes sense. And look at them.That's what I'm learning about the wheat seats that I have. I'm looking. Now I'm looking. And there are different clues. I wish I was more experienced about this. But in a way, I'm glad I'm not.

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I never, I just, if I'd run into the problem over and over again, I would be up and running on it. It's the general approach to it that I learned that, again, to take the stress off people.

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I'm interesting. Are people that are listening, have you had particular problems? And what happened?

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What was the disease? Yeah. What happened to you? I'd be really interesting. And where do you live so that we can maybe see if this supports our conclusion that if you're in a drier climate or a higher elevation one the way I was, then it's not going to be a problem.

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Yeah, one of the things I've noticed is that I am not experienced with disease. Donna says I've had no problems here in Arizona GPE. Exactly.

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Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it was just confirming that, Donna.

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There's not a lot to go wrong because there's not a lot of moisture there.

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Now, let me just talk about one other disease that I do have some experience with,

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and that is black rot, and it attacks the cabbage family plants. Oh, mm-hmm. Okay, the brassicas. And it's a fungus that gets taken up in the vascular bundles that pull water up into the plant, gets established there. And they call it black rot because if it's broccoli and you cut it off at the stem,the whole center of the stem will be black. Or it gets up into cabbage, in the centers of cabbages, turn black. And that can be a seed-borne disease. And so there are, and you can look for a formula if you want, I'm sure they're all over the internet. Now, back in the day, you could clean your seed at home by putting the seed in

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boiling water. Really? Only you didn't want it to be quite boiling. And you had to be really

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careful how long it was in there. So you want to keep seeds cool, dark, and dry. And here you are

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soaking them in hot water. And so the idea was that you wanted to leave them in hot water long enough to kill the disease without harming the seeds.

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And that's a fine line. And but I'm just throwing out this to people that this was an old solution that had been used. There are probably chemicals now that you could use.

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Yeah.

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Fungicide.

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Black rot is caused by a bacteria.

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And it's got a big old long name.

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Oh, it's a bacteria. See, I get in a mix up. I thought it was a fungus. All right.

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This bacteria can infect any plant in the Brassick ACA family, but tends to be most

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damaging on broccoli, cabbage, and cauliflower and kale. And black rot often enters farms

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and gardens via infected seed.

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There you go. Yeah. Donald says, I think I had powdery mildew last fall.

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That's, and I believe Donald PERSON's in. Watering.

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Where do you live? Donald's in Phoenix GPE. Okay.

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And so it's pretty dry there, but top watering would do that, wouldn't it?

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I've had no powdery mildew in Arizona GPE once I stopped top watering.

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Yeah. And maybe that he's got misters on out by the pool too or something that would cause moisture in the air that would do that. And what I've always said, my philosophy for powdery mildew is to outgrow it. I try to plant enough squash that it keeps growing. If I've ever had it, it's only during a certain part of the year early on. Or I've had it actually late in the air when we had monsoons and we had three or four days of rain.But I don't really ever worry about it. If you're growing vine squash, vines grow on, new leaves come up. And it goes on. It's never a persistent or debilitating

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problem in Arizona in my experience. Vanessa PERSON posted, I've used hot water treatment on tomato seeds, since there are so many diseases that affect tomatoes. Many university extensions have info on hot water treatment. She sent over a Cornell University ORG article on it, managing pathogens inside seed with hot water. I had no clue. I had no clue.Thank you, Vanessa and Bill PERSON. Steve PERSON says, is corn smut the black growth that sometimes appears in corn on corn? Is it a seed-borne or environmental disease? Corn smut is a fungus. I'm pretty sure about that, isn't it, Bill PERSON? Yeah, you're absolutely right.Yeah, corn smut is a fungus. I guess it could come from seed or could come from being airborne.

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It spores and those spores are windborne. So it can spread that way. Obviously then because

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it's spreading that way, it can get on to seeds and then it gets spread by the seeds. Yeah.

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But again, you can control that with your environment.

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Yeah.

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And or a variety. And corn smut's a delicacy. Yeah. I learned that in Tucson GPE. Yeah.

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When corn smut, wheat lecoche is the southwestern word, a native word they use for it.

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Wheat lecoche.

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That's Spanish NORP, I think.

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And a field of corn that's been devastated by wheat lecoche is actually worth more. Right. Than if it was just corn. Yeah. And it's usually never

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devastates a whole field. It just picks out certain ears where the water has gotten down into the

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cob itself and it starts to eat the sugar in the forming kernels.

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So the cobs have to be formed.

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They have to be pollinated. There's a lot of sand. And then the water has to happen at a certain time. Now, if this is a problem and you don't want it, I only selected seed for my corn from ears that had a really tight top.

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So sometimes the tops of ears of corner open a little bit and the rain can get down in there.

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And those are the ones where you'll get wheat lecoche.

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Interesting. A seed selection technique that I never would have thought about.

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Yeah, I guess this happened because I was native seed search and in the southwest, and there's a lot of talk about these sorts of things.

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But that is an environmental thing.

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And so after three or four years, almost all my corn now has really tight tops.

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And I did that because of our monsoons.

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Oh, I was going my corn for tortillas, not for wheat lecoche.

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And I still get it occasionally. I love it when I get it. If you do have corn smut, get it early before it turns black. It's a gray, slimy-looking fungus. It's a mushroom. It's a mushroom.

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Yeah.

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And pull them out, slice them up, pan-fried with a little butter. Oh, my God. It is so good. Nice. I was thinking maybe one more thing we could talk about really quickly is a mosaic virus, which gets into beans.

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And that can be seed-borne.

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And that's a real problem for industrial agriculture, especially in Arizona and in Idaho GPE.

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There are seed disease police in both states

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hunting around any lead for any sign of bean mosaic virus. And there's several different strains. So you want to be careful with that. We had some of the beans seed at native seed search tested when I was, there's director when Bella PERSON and I were there and it came back positive, some of it. Interesting. And they were threatening to shut down the whole, all the bean. We have 500 varieties of beans and we were shipping them out to people all over the world. And there was talk that they were going to shut down that whole operation because they didn't want us shipping and bean mosaic virus to people.And probably what happened. And I don't think it was in all the beans. And we continually tested it. And the whole concern seemed to go away after a while. But the problem with in XC2, they call it seed conservation, and by that seed banks,

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right?

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Well, the problem is you have to grow everything out occasionally, right?

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After 20, 30, 40, 50 years, you have to grow those varieties out because the bean seed seeds starts to die in your seed bank. So you take some out and you grow it out. That was accomplished at native seed search. It took about 10 years to grow all the different varieties, but we grew them all out in the same field. And so the 500 bean varieties,

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something had bean mosaic fires. It probably got into the soil. And then we spread it to many other

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varieties ourselves in the same field over a number of years because it never rose to prominence and actually

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hurt the plants, but it was there.

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Bean, yellow mosaic.

Speaker 11633.14s - 1638.64s

That's the one that came up as caused by the yellow mosaic virus.

Speaker 31639.54s - 1651.32s

This virus can infect beans, gladiolas, clover, peas, lupine, and pumpkins. Wow. It looks like the leaves are bleached out. Yes.

Speaker 11652.42s - 1663.26s

Yeah. And tip, if you're one of our Arizona GPE listeners, grow tepore beans. Yes. Tepery beans are totally immune to it.

Speaker 31663.66s - 1664.24s

Oh, really?

Speaker 11664.82s - 1693.56s

Yeah, totally. They can carry it. It can be on the seeds. They can carry it into your thing. But they're completely immune. They've gotten beyond it.They don't care. They carry it, but they don't care. Interesting. Yeah. So I've had people do that. They had bean mosaic virus.They just moved into teporee beans, which are a native, if you don't know, they're a native wild plant to Arizona GPE. Tepri beans are.

Speaker 01693.56s - 1703.34s

They were just selected over, we don't know how long, to give us the large beans. And they're delicious. And you can get them from Ramona Farms ORG if you're interested.

Speaker 21703.34s - 1704.7s

You can get them from Ramona Farms ORG if you're interested.

Speaker 11710.52s - 1717.76s

Gloria says verticillium can go after maple trees, many veggies, and in the vascular system. So a maple tree may lose one out of three of ten branches, so lose branches.

Speaker 31718.5s - 1718.82s

Wow.

Speaker 01719.7s - 1723.92s

She also said we had added on black-capped raspberries.

Speaker 21724.2s - 1724.52s

This is...

Speaker 01724.52s - 1724.96s

Wow.

Speaker 31725.64s - 1739.2s

Yeah. Considered putting asparagus resistant asparagus in. Oh, and she makes a good point. Use 90% alcohol to clean pruners in between plants. That's always a good thing to do is clean

Speaker 11739.2s - 1744.64s

your pruners. All you have to do in Phoenix is sit them out in 120-degree weather, right?

Speaker 31745.36s - 1746.88s

Oh, you might be surprised, Bill PERSON.

Speaker 11748.88s - 1750.3s

You might be surprised.

Speaker 31750.42s - 1751.78s

It may live right through that.

Speaker 11752.68s - 1753.04s

Wow.

Speaker 31753.66s - 1758.5s

If you're buying a disease-resistant variety, if you're purchasing seats,

Speaker 11758.6s - 1763.56s

say you've had problems with fusarium, verticillium, one of these other things.

Speaker 31763.56s - 1767.3s

And you find a variety in one of the catalogs that's resistant to that.

Speaker 11768.24s - 1800.38s

Almost always, they're hybrids. Oh, yes. Because that allows them to cross in that resistance relatively quickly to a really good variety. And so if you're a seed saver, that's a problem, right? But it's not a problem if you have the time. So save your seeds from your hybrids for disease resistance.And how do you tell? They're resistant. If everything else is going down in your yard still, save the ones that are resistant,

Speaker 01800.38s - 1811.66s

and you can stabilize those lines and make them open pollinated so you can give them to your friends, take them to a seed library. So it doesn't have to be a barrier to us having our own

Speaker 11811.66s - 1821.72s

seeds. You've told a story before about a gentleman that was broccoli planted out.

Speaker 31822.64s - 1828.24s

Tell me that story. Well, it was Blackrod and it was John Nabazio and it was in Washington GPE.

Speaker 11828.74s - 1829.56s

And it was horrible.

Speaker 31829.84s - 1830.86s

And it was getting everything.

Speaker 11831.48s - 1833.86s

And they brought him and he said, take me to the worst field.

Speaker 31835.52s - 1836.12s

There is.

Speaker 11836.24s - 1850.06s

And it was in a county and they went down and they went to this guy who got totally wiped out. They said, this is the place. And there were some remnants left or whatever. And he goes, okay, we're going to do an experiment. Can we use this field? And they go, yeah, but why would you

Speaker 31850.06s - 1856.4s

want to do that? This is the most infected field. He goes exactly. And they rounded up as many different

Speaker 11856.4s - 1871.78s

varieties of broccoli as they could. He got as much diversity as he could find and they planted it in that field. And sure not, everybody said, waste of time, John PERSON, they're all going to die. And they were right. They all died except for a

Speaker 01871.78s - 1881.18s

couple of them that made it. And he goes, bingo, there's your answer. Save the seeds. There's the start

Speaker 11881.18s - 1885.76s

to your road back. And sometimes that doesn't work the first time.

Speaker 01885.86s - 1887.16s

You don't have the diversity.

Speaker 11887.94s - 1891.96s

That's why we need all the diversity that we have.

Speaker 21892.2s - 1898.68s

There you go. Never, never know. That's why we're such diversity priests just for that story. So thank you for bringing that up.

Speaker 31899.58s - 1906.78s

Thank you, Bill PERSON. Next month is seed time, how to plant your seeds. We're going to talk about planting seeds. Oh, good. Oh, good.

Speaker 11907.86s - 1910.74s

Thank you, everybody, for joining us tonight.

Speaker 31911.54s - 1914.5s

And we'll catch on the flip side, Bill PERSON. Yeah.

Speaker 11914.74s - 1915.3s

Thanks, Greg PERSON.

Speaker 31915.8s - 1916.44s

Yeah, you bet.

Speaker 11917.14s - 1918.24s

Helen PERSON says thank you.

Speaker 31918.5s - 1922.16s

Donna says a very interesting topic. Thanks, everybody. Have a good one.

Speaker 11922.16s - 1924.26s

All right. Take care. See you soon. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Speaker 01924.26s - 1952.96s

We hope you enjoyed today's episode of the Urban Farm ORG podcast. Remember to listen for tips, advice, and resources to help you on your journey with urban farming. You can find us on the web at urbanfarm.org ORG or send us an email to podcast at urbanfarm.org. In the words of Vincent Van Gogh PERSON, great things are done by a series of small things brought together. Be encouraged that with each lesson learned and skill developed, you are one step closer in the direction of your dreams.