Ep327 - Justin Levine: Orchestrating Almost Completely by Ear

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Hi, y'all. This is Kristen Chenewit PERSON.

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Hi, I'm Gloria Stephan PERSON. This is Sarah Borellis PERSON. Hi, I'm Patty Gupon PERSON. This is Lynn Manuel Miranda PERSON. You're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network ORG.

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Hi, I'm Justin Levine, and you are listening to The Theater Podcast with Alan Seals ORG.

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Excuse me, Mr. Dickens PERSON. I've got something on my mind. I've tried, but I can't seem to let it go. Happy whatever day it is today, everyone.

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Welcome back to the theater podcast. I'm your host, Alan Seals, and our episode today is with Justin Levine PERSON, an actor, a musical theater book writer, composer, lyricist, orchestrator, and arranger. This episode, of course, is still part of the The Outsiders WORK_OF_ART podcast takeover currently in effect. So make sure to scroll back in the podcast feed and check out past episodeswith many other Tony PERSON-nominated peeps from the show. And also make sure to follow the podcast if you aren't already to get the rest of the takeover that's going to be releasedin the next series of episodes. So Justin PERSON told his story about how he started writing music as a job, and it kind of blew me away. The guy basically plays instruments and makes entire orchestral arrangements playing by ear. It's insane.Of course, he exposes more of the creative juice that went into the creation of the outsider as a topic I honestly could talk about for days, simply because I just love to know how things are made. So don't forget to find me online on all the socials and now everyone please enjoy this episode with Justin Levine. Whether you're selling a little or a lot. Shopify ORG helps you do your thing. However you, chiching, Shopify ORG is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. From the launch your online shop stage to the first real life store stage,all the way to the, did we just hit a million orders stage? Shopify ORG's there to help you grow. Whether you're selling scented soap or offering outdoor outfits, Shopify ORG helps you sell everywhere. From their all-in-one e-commerce platform to their in-person POS system, wherever and whatever you're selling, Shopify ORG's got you covered.Shopify ORG helps you turn browsers into buyers with the internet's best converting checkout, 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. And sell more with less effort thanks to Shopify Magic PRODUCT, your AI-powered All-Star. So do you want marketing made simple? Shopify ORG removes the guesswork with built-in tools that help you create, execute, and analyze all your online marketing campaigns.Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com ORG slash income, all lowercase. Go to Shopify.com ORG slash income now to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. Shopify.com ORG slash income. Because businesses that grow grow with Shopify ORG.

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Great expectations.

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Today's guest is a theater book writer, lyricist, music supervisor, and orchestral arranger.

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Say that five times fast.

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Orchestral, orchestral, orchestral, orchestral,anger with broadway credits that include bloody bloody

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bloody Andrew Jackson, Mulan Rouge and Here Lies Love WORK_OF_ART. Additional credits include

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creating original music for Shakespeare in the parks at midsummer nights dream

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arranging vocals for Vivo X Lord PRODUCT melodrama music directing loves labors lost

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music directing robber bridegroom at the roundabout theater and music directing

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murder ballot at NPC and Union Square Theater. He is now the co-book writer, co-l lyricist, music directing Robber Bridegroom at the Roundabout Theater ORG and music directing murder

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ballot at NPC and Union Square Theater ORG. He is now the co-book writer, co- lyricist, music supervisor, and orchestral arranger for The Outsiders. Now on Broadway, Justin Levine PERSON, welcome to the theater podcast. Man, got to get through that intro. Sorry about that. Don't be sorry? Oh, dude, I just thought it was really interesting how much love and murder you have on your resume.

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There's a lot. Lots of love and murder directing. I mean, you know, it's just those are the jobs that come to me, I guess.

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Well, three out of your four Broadway credits are with just Alex Timbers PERSON, which of course, like maybe he's got the secret love for love and murder.

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Yeah, we should get him on this and figure out what's going on.

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Alex PERSON is a shy guy.

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He does not like interviews.

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I'm sure you know.

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I'm sure you know.

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Or maybe he's just a quiet guy.

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Well, then let's start there.

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Okay, go back to the very beginning.

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So where did you grow up and what really got you into performing and music?

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So I grew up on Long Island in a town called Northport, which is actually also the hometown of Patty Lepone and Edie Falco PERSON.

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And I started out performing as an actor.

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You know, as most theater artists, I think, you know, we, we end up doing

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that, and that's kind of our way into it. And so I started by just doing the school plays and

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musicals. And, you know, the program that we had was a great program, but we also, you know,

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built sets and, you know, painted flats. And often, you know, just were doing, you know, painted flats and often, you know, just were doing, you know,

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crew when we were doing our, like we would do the fall plays and stuff. And so that was how I started. And then music was always a part of my life. And I come from a very musical family. But I don't think I ever really thought of music as what would be my living or my career path. I think I saw myself more as somebody who would be writing and

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performing. So you knew you always wanted to write, though, like to write music or just write

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like like book? I would write music for fun, but I would say for the most part...

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Wait, at what age where you just going out and be like, I'm bored, I'm going to write music?

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I probably started doing that around middle school or, yeah, middle school in high school.

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But I, you know, I grew up, I'm a lot older than my siblings.

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And so I mostly grew up as an only child.

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And so you kind of have to keep yourself occupied. And so I would, you know, come up with ideas for plays and movies and things, but I loved to perform. So that was really where, I think, where, you know, that was my entrance into it. And I grew up watching all the classic musical movies. And growing up on Long Island, my family, we would come into the city all the time and see Broadway LOC shows, plays, and musicals.

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Do you remember your first show you ever saw?

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So we haven't quite figured out exactly which is the first, first one. But some of the early productions I saw were the original production of Into the Woods WORK_OF_ART. Once on this island, what else? Cats, of course. I saw, I mean, yeah, Le Miz, Phantom WORK_OF_ART, you know, all those shows from the, you know, late 80s,early 90s. Yeah.

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Yeah, the British invasion. Yeah, late 80s, you're right. That's exact time. And then, you know, rent came in in the early, in the 90s and early 90s. Yeah. Yeah, the British invasion. Yeah, late 80s, you're right. That's the exact time. And then, you know, rent came in in the 90s and it helped to end that.

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So in middle school, you're writing music. And I would assume that you had some sort of knowledge of music theory. And then you said you come from a musical family. So am I corrected assuming that like you were taking lessons with instruments or what were you doing at this point?

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No, actually. So I, from the time I was about three years old, I loved to go up to the piano in our house and play. And so both my parents studied. My dad had more of a background in jazz. My mom was classically trained. She was a bit of a child prodigy in her day.And interestingly enough, I was never, my mom was actually, was a piano teacher for about 25 years, but I never took lessons with her because, I mean, think about it, it would be like if your mom was a therapist or a doctor, it's like you're not necessarily going to go there. And we tried, but my mom actually, I think she took the smart,she had a smart take on it, which was she could see that I loved it and enjoyed it and wanted to play around on that I was figuring things out. And so she wanted to let it be fun. And that's what she did.

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And so as a result, yeah, I ended up,

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but what's interesting is I'm not really much of a reader musically.

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And I play by ear.

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So it's interesting that I wound up doing what I do, but I don't have any real formal background in music. I did when I was in high school take a music comp course, and it was a teacher, Mr. Doyle, who actually said to me, you know, I know that you'll already know a lot of the things that we'll talk about in class, but I think it might be useful for you to put names to things,and so that you'll understand why those things are the way that they are.

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I also had a great choir teacher, and so I learned how to cite read vocal lines and things like that, and also we sang really challenging music, and so I was definitely learning music that way, but as far as studying theory, I never really had that background.

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I'm dumbfounded and blown away

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that you fell into this career that you are in

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just by learning to play basically by ear.

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That's insane.

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I'm dumbfounded by it too.

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And, you know, the thing is when, so the first show that Alex and I did together, Bloody Bloody WORK_OF_ART, I remember always thinking, oh, what a cool thing. This is one of those rare opportunities where because of music, I'm able to also be an actor and a show and a performer. And so I sort of thought of music directing as a night job and that it was this thing that I was going to do that would get my foot in the door and then pursue acting.

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And what's so interesting about it to me is that when I look back on it, I clearly wasn't very motivated to be an actor. I feel like actors have to have so much discipline and so much self-motivation. And I find that stuff really challenging and that I wasn't, you know, I wasn't getting myself head shots and I wasn't working on material. I wasn't reading backstage and trying to figure.Something clearly subconsciously was telling me that that wasn't what backstage and trying to figure. Something clearly subconsciously was telling me that that wasn't what I actually wanted to do. But I think, you know, like many of us, when we start out, we go to, you know, even when I think about it in college, I mean, I studied, I went to Tisch School of the Arts ORG and I was at playwrights and I did the classical program. I spent a year studying Shakespeare PERSON and acting classical text. And, you know, but the truth of the matter is, all of that, I would say, informs the way that I work more thananything. And that, you know, my teacher in college, Louis Sheeter PERSON, who created and ran the classical program at NYU ORG, his style of rehearsal is probably my greatest influence in terms of how I, how I've worked with performers.

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So do you still have a part of you that wants to continue acting, or are you truly into the music path now, the music creation?

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You know, I consciously know, I don't feel the bug. I do love making music and performing music. And I do think that if something, if the right thing were there, I would definitely love to do it again. But, I mean, it's been so long. And actually, Alex PERSON gave me my last acting job,my last equity contract, which was we did Love's Labor's Lost at the Delacourt in Shakespeare in the Park, and I played Moth PERSON in that production.

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And in that production, I was also the music director, and I was also orchestrating it

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with Michael Friedman PERSON. And it was, I was confused all the time because I was wearing so many hats. Wow. I still can't imagine time because I was wearing so many hats.

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Wow. I still can't imagine, well, okay, so you're learning in lines and you've got to get dive into the way to work and learn this grid to the blocking and blah, blah, blah.

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And then you're also creating the music.

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And I'm still trying to physically picture the process of orchestrating because doesn't an orchestra

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score, it's like super tall with like 18 lines for every instrument and all of this?

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So, yes.

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And, you know, I've been orchestrator on a number of shows. And, you know, really, the way I break it down for people is, so there's orchestrating and there's arranging, right? Arranging is largely kind of the initial work I did, let's say, on Moulin Rouge WORK_OF_ART, where it was building a score out of pop songs. And so you're figuring out which verse or line or lyric you're going to place where and how you're going to string it all together.

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So has you to thank for the Elephant Love Medley WORK_OF_ART. There you go. Well, I like to thank Baz and Anton and everybody else and Marius for the

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elephant love medley. But my version of it was an arrangement, right? And then the orchestration process was, the orchestration process is figuring out which instruments play what, right?

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And so, you know, John and Zach from Jamestown Revival ORG, you know, we do, they do that with their band when they're like, hey, yeah, I want it to be half-time here and I want it to go to this. And, you know, it's collaborative. And, you know, most shows that I orchestrate, I am not the only credited orchestrator on because I know that this is a collaborative process and the same is true on the outsiders. You know, I'm working with Matt Hinkley PERSON, our music director and he's been in the trenches with me for years now and we have, you know, we have additional arrangements by credits going to a number of our band members as well because of those contributions as well. So when it comes to how do you go from being somebody who can't read music to a score that youhand to a band, it's been different on every show. In the past, I've done it where it's in the room with the band and I'm building on the band. And with Moulin Rouge WORK_OF_ART in particular, the initial process was I went into the studio with Matt Stein PERSON and he engineered all these sessions where we built demos. And so I played most of the instruments either via MIDI for the horns and the strings, but then I played a lot of guitar for these demos. I played bass. I played, you know, piano organ. Sometimes I played a little mandolin, you know, a banjo, other things.But that basically we would build demos. And then in the case of Moulin Rouge WORK_OF_ART, I really wanted the strings and the horns to have the integrity that they had in the film. But also, I loved the idea of the chaos of it. And so I thought, what better show than to have a big team? And so that was Katie Kressick really focusing on the strings and Charlie Rosen PERSON, really focusing on the horns and Matt focusing on a lot of the Ableton PRODUCT programming and electronic side.So it really was this beautiful, you know, combination of very different artists making something together. And I saw myself, when I hired everybody, I said to them, you know, think of me as the team captain or as the quarterback. And, you know, I'm going to call the plays and I'm going to start this off with this. But I want everybody to feel like they can bring themselves to it. And that's how I like to do it. I think largely because I work on a lot of genre-driven musicals.Huh.

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Okay, so many questions I have around that because I didn't even realize that it was sort of separated. There's like the horn department and the strings department and the organ and piano and then I'm sure.

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That was sort of how we set it up because Charlie PERSON is a brilliant horn arranger and Katie

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is a gorgeous violin player and also just understands those instruments.

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And Katie and I've worked together for a long time. We've done a lot of pop gigs together and she had said to me once that she was subbing on a show, a Broadway LOC show, and that she could tell that whoever did the string arrangements didn't play the strings, right?

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And that they were clearly like a piano player's idea of what the strings should do.

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And so when she said that to me, I thought, I remember, I wasn't even working on Moulin Rouge WORK_OF_ART at the time, but I thought to myself, if I ever do a show that requires a lot of strings, I'm going to call her. And so, you know, I mean, there are numbers in Moulin Rouge WORK_OF_ART where the string parts are what I had initially set out, and she helped translate them to those instruments. And then other times there are things where you listen to it and you're like, that is Katie Cressick's PERSON brilliance.And the same goes for Charlie PERSON. And a lot of it is about cultivating a truly collaborative process. And I think on the outsiders, you know, I've been working on this music with Jamestown ORG for a really long time. Hinkley PERSON joined us as the music director and he was inside of all that, but because he is both a great musician and also has an incredible earand knowledge of theory and how to represent that on the page, a lot of times he would sit with me, thank goodness, and would say, okay, what do you want here? And so I would literally sing it out loud or I would play it. And, you know, I've been told, I don't know if this is a fact, but I've been told that Danny Elthman PERSON often composes and orchestrates like that

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when he does film scores.

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You know, I think it's about just surrounding yourself with people who believe in what you're doing and have that knowledge

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that I don't have and are able to help translate that. Where does the decision come in to actually give someone credit for this sort of thing? Because, for example, you know, your actors, when you're putting a show together, when they're originating a role, there are so many of the

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actors' movements and natural lines or flubs or things that are like, they try something and it works. And then director says, keep it.

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And then it makes its way in, right? But they don't get writer credit with all that stuff.

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That's, I mean, I have a lot of thoughts about this. What I will say is that for me,

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it usually feels pretty clear when you've gone from a place of a natural collaborative process

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where the best idea wins over into the line of authorship of whatever domain you're referring to.

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But I also think it's a matter of, so for example, in some cases, including Moulan Rouge FAC,

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there are people who contributed in my mind who I would not say orchestrated the show, but their work influenced the orchestrations to the extent that I gave them equity in the orchestration. So they're not credited as an orchestrator, but I gave them equity because I think of it almost in the way that you think about a startup, right? So if you worked at Google way back in the day, and let's say you were an office manager, they weren't able to pay you an adequate wage, and so you were given stock options.

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To me, it's about sweat equity more than it is about authorship. And I think it's different on every show, because at the end of the day,

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to me, it's important that if I'm working with somebody, it's not so much that I'm saying, I want all of your ideas. I just want us to be able to work in a way in which people are going to feel free to express themselves and be comfortable with a yay or a nay without it feeling like someone's going to steal something from them.

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You see it happen from time to time where people have this conversation. I know it happened on Hamilton. And to me, it's less about whether or not Lynn PERSON wrote those words. Lynn PERSON wrote those words, right? And Lynn PERSON wrote those melodies. But, you know, I think about those beautiful relationships that Lynn PERSON wrote those words, right? And Lynn wrote those melodies. But, you know, I think aboutthose beautiful relationships that Lynn himself has cultivated, be it with Alex PERSON. I think of Alex

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Lacamoire. It's a great example of that. That is a collaborator, you know, of the highest order. And so for me, it's, it's something that is assessed every time I work on something, but that I am somebody who wants the people around me not to just simply feel like it's my way or the highway. What I always say when I invite people into that process is I'm the team captain, and therefore,

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my eye on the vision of it will ultimately be not just a tiebreaker, but will be the sort of north star of what we're doing. But that's also why I try to surround myself. the vision of it will ultimately be not just a tiebreaker, but will be this sort of North Star of what we're doing. But that's also why I try to surround myself with people that I admire

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and people whose taste I admire. When is it, do you have a point when there's too much of your collaborators that are taking away from your North Star LOC? and then even still, when you're working on a project and originating and building like this, especially something is well known as the outsiders. Donya PERSON is, is it fair to say she's the ultimate captain of the biggest ship?

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Because she's the director or the producer beyond that, but like from the creative team building.

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Yes, I would say, Donya PERSON's definitely our captain. And, I would say Donya's definitely our captain and what I love about Danya PERSON is that she has a vision and it's a vision that we all believed in. And so but Danya PERSON is the ultimate collaborator and somebody who does want to hear from everybody and wants to really think everything through. So you know when we got to freezing think everything through. So, you know, when we got to freezing the show, the way I felt about it was somewhat different than I often feel when we freeze

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a show where I thought, we left everything on the field. From the time we did La Jolla GPE and actually saw what the show looked like and how an audience responded to it, to the time we got to New York GPE, I think about all that space between, she didn't let anybody take a break, you know? And I loved it, and I was there for it because she was in the trenches

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with us the minute she jumped into the project. And so, yes, I think that what I really respect

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about Danya PERSON is that in addition to being such a bold and fearless creator, she also believes in the best idea winning and also leans on her collaborators.

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And in the case of the outsiders, you know, she leaned on me a lot of somebody who works primarily in musical theater. And she, but she's the, she was the best student of the art form I've ever seen. I mean, she literally went to see every single musical she possibly could from the minute she got that job. And of course, also has a background in it herself and comes from a pretty brilliant family of creators of, you know, certainly one very successful piece of musical theater we can think of.

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Oh, Lion King, Julie Tameor PERSON. Yeah, Don is Julie PERSON's niece for those who didn't know. Yeah. So it's interesting to me how she encouraged everybody to, actually, well, let me back up because the one question didn't get answered. When is it too much to, when somebody's trying to pull in too much of themselves to pullthe project away from your North Star LOC and then, you know, when do you realize that your North Star maybe isn't aligning with Donias PERSON or another creatives in again?

Speaker 91626.96s - 1704.22s

Well, I don't know that that ever happened in the sense that we, by the time we're all moving forward, we have the same North Star LOC, we might just have different routes as to how we get there. And what I love about that is that we were able to talk about it. And to me, when people say, like, what's the key to collaboration and the key to collaborating in a way where what you're asking doesn't happen is when there's emotional safety in the conversation. And I think that emotional safety requires everybody prioritizing the show.And that there have been many times where my idea was not the idea we went with because there was a better idea. And that it's, it really, it's, it's about having a healthy ego and trusting yourself and trusting your gut, but then also knowing that you're not always seeing it the same way that somebody else is. And then some of the best dramaturgical through linesof our show came from our choreographers, right? And come from other sources. But if we all believe in that singular vision, we'll be able to find that more easily.

Speaker 101704.22s - 1717s

That's something that the Coopermans told me really early on was how much Danya PERSON and the rest of the team. And then, you know, we talked a little bit with Adam PERSON, you and Adam were talking to me at the press

Speaker 01717s - 1738.4s

junket. Yeah. Just about how everyone is always encouraging each other to go outside your lanes and to give ideas even when it's not your traditional sort of job, right? Like you wouldn't, you're not hired to do choreography, the Coopermans PERSON aren't hired to do music, but yet everyone's giving each other ideas.

Speaker 91738.4s - 1845.42s

Well, I think that, you know, you're not creating choreography for choreographers, and you're not creating music for musicians and so on, right? And that actually, the way I have always described this process, and particularly with this team, is that this musical is a relay race, and that sometimes the baton is going to be handed to book,sometimes it'll be handed to movement, to music, and so on. And so it's about us as a group saying, in this moment, what is the best way to do that? And, you know, John, Zach, and Adam PERSON and I had a lot of time together, where it was just the four of us, really going through it and looking at it. And, you know, when I joined the project, I was already a big fan of Adams PERSON and very quickly a fan of Jamestown ORG. And so it was never about what I preferred.It was about what is it asking for here. And that one of the best ways to know where you're going or what you're doing is to look at other examples of shows and see where, you know, kind of the same, just the same, what's the word I'm trying to think of, basically the same territory that you're in and that, you know, the music director, Joel Fram PERSON, I don't know if you've ever had the pleasure of meeting him,he's brilliant. And I worked with his husband, Martin Lowe PERSON. We co-orchestrated the Robert Bridegroom WORK_OF_ART together. And Joel PERSON once said to me, you know, everybody says that, not everybody, but the conventional wisdom about songs and musicals is that your emotions are so great that you can't help but sing.

Speaker 01846.18s - 1858.9s

And he was saying, that's one version of what music is, that effectively music, just like any other element of a musical, is a metaphor. And so it is expression in a way that might otherwise

Speaker 91858.9s - 1889.74s

not be music. So you can go inward. You can, you know, music can be utilized in so many different ways. It's not just about, oh, my God, I'm so excited, I have to sing a song. Lindsay Mendez PERSON once said to me, because I was working on a musical that she was an actor through the development of it. And she always said, the simplest version of it is that when the song is over, are you somewhere else? And that doesn't have to be literal, right?

Speaker 01889.74s - 1906s

And so the idea is truly like to find the essence of a song in a musical and figure out the best way for it to belong is to figure out if you remove that song, does it just keep going?

Speaker 11906s - 1908s

Or does that song take us somewhere?

Speaker 01908s - 1911s

Does it help get us further along?

Speaker 91911s - 1932.9s

And so with this particular group, I look at John PERSON and Zach and they are songsmiths at heart. And one of the things that I said to them, because they had major imposter syndrome at first, is I said, the people who wrote the early musicals and then some were the people who were writing pop songs at the time. And so those traditions

Speaker 01932.9s - 1944.88s

don't suggest that every song has to be, I get up, I get in my car, and I go somewhere, and now I land somewhere else. It's also, sometimes living in an emotional state is movement

Speaker 91944.88s - 1949.22s

narratively, whether we think it is literally or not, you know.

Speaker 101949.78s - 1965.44s

So you're credited in several different departments here, if we want to go keep on that metaphor. Yeah. Was there one thing that was easier to create than another? Like, was, I was going to say, oh, the book, that seems like the easiest thing to go with,

Speaker 01965.44s - 1973.02s

but because it's a known, amazing novel, how do you cut it down and make it short enough

Speaker 11973.02s - 1974.28s

to keep people's attention?

Speaker 01974.5s - 1976.86s

Yeah, book writing is really hard.

Speaker 91977.54s - 2042.56s

And that is something that I learned a long time ago when I started writing musicals, but also I remember when I was doing Robert Bridegroom, Alfred Yuri PERSON was around all the time, and he and I were talking about it, and he said, it's a completely different job from playwriting. And a great playwright can write a great musical, and it can also write a terrible book to a musical. And, you know, somebody that perhaps isn't a successful playwright can write an excellent book. You know, people comefrom all sorts of different backgrounds. You know, Abe Burroughs PERSON is one of my favorite examples because he was the king of television for a while. And when he was doing that, was able to write things like guys and dolls. And, you know, and so when you think about it that way, book writing, again, just to go back to sort of what Joel PERSON was saying about music and songs in musicals, book writing isn't just to tee up a song. In my mind, the book is as important

Speaker 32042.56s - 2046.92s

as the song, is as important as the movement, as the stage,

Speaker 02046.92s - 2053.78s

as the design. It's simply just the relay race. But to your point, in the case of adapting

Speaker 92053.78s - 2069s

the outsiders, you know, I started working on the outsiders at the same time that I started working on Moulin Rouge WORK_OF_ART. And that was really a fascinating kind of parallel journey I was on because in both cases...

Speaker 102069s - 2069.68s

About 10 years ago?

Speaker 92070.9s - 2073.24s

Yeah, eight and a half years ago I started working on.

Speaker 102073.54s - 2077.78s

Well, okay, yeah, so sorry, both cases. Yeah, and within months of each other.

Speaker 92077.78s - 2193s

And lucky, I was, I've been lucky enough to develop relationships with Baz Luhrman PERSON and with Essie Hinton PERSON and really talk about this stuff with them. You know, in both cases, neither of them wanted to be directly involved in the adaptation process. But what both of them offered were two things. One was to encourage us to have our own vision for it and to say that it is essential that you don't just take what we did and put it on stage. But then also to understand why those choices were made. Not so that you make the same choice, but that whatever choice you makeis informed by that initial impulse. And so it's never been lost on me, certainly not in either of those cases, that we were treading on hallowed ground, and that, you know, Mulan Rouge WORK_OF_ART is, is, you know, I would say certainly one of the, if not the crown jewel of Baz PERSON's brilliance. And I think the same is true for S.E. Hinton PERSON and the outsiders. And so a lot of it was about hearing that first bit of advice from both of them and running in a direction that felt like our impulse, but then also whenever we ran into those roadblocks,going back to the source material. And with Adam and myself and with John and Zach PERSON, what we often did was go back to the novel and read it. And sometimes we just sit around and read passages out loud to each other. A friend of mine actually just told me that they read the novel for the first time after seeing the musical. So the musical was theirfirst intro to the outsiders. And then as me as yeah, oh really? Yeah, I have no exposure to it until

Speaker 102193s - 2199.72s

I saw the musical. Wow. And so then upon reading the book thought, oh my God, wow, they really

Speaker 92199.72s - 2246.72s

are honoring the book in how much is included, you know, be that dialogue, be that just detail, be that lyrics that are direct quotes from the novel. To the extent that even I forget a lot of those, because we've just been working on this thing for so long, and it's probably been about a year and a half or a year since I've read the book from cover to cover. I still had referenced it a lot. But yeah, so I think as far as, you know, I don't know that there's an easy, easy job. Because as much as you might have one thing to do, you're still having to do it with a bunch of other people and do it in a way where everyone is telling the same story.

Speaker 102247.22s - 2283.96s

Well, for you, you said bookwriting's super hard. It does seem super hard. And then bringing Jamestown revival in, you know, Jonathan Clay and Zach Chance PERSON, their music's awesome. So was it, it seems like to me, what I was going to guess for the outsiders was the book writing was the hardest part just because there's so much that you have to condense it down to. And then you've got Jamestown Revival, these two guys coming in, bringing in a wonderful foundation. Like, so you're creating more out of less with the music side, where at the book side, you're taking the big and making less from it.

Speaker 92283.96s - 2376.58s

Yeah, I think when you put it that way, that makes sense. But what I will say is I actually think they're equally hard because there are so many tools that you use in pop songwriting and in Americana that don't work as well on stage. So a lot of our songs ended up having to be, you know, cut down or sections were rewritten or there would be these long turnarounds. Like if you listen to a Jamestown ORG record, there are a lot of things where if you imagine those songs are deeply emotional and contemplativeand stirring. But if you imagine an actor in a play or in a musical interpreting that song, there are moments that for a Jamestown record are a superpower because it's this buildup to a release that on stage wouldn't necessarily work as well. And I think the same is true with Adam PERSON and Adam's voice and that, you know, I think being a fan of the Jamestown ORG, you know, catalog and sound, but also being a huge fan of Adam PERSON's work, for me, the challenge, and it was an exciting challenge, was to figure out a way to preserve the integrity of these voices and my voiceas well, because, of course, John Zach PERSON and I wrote all those songs together. And, you know, Adam PERSON and I, you know, worked together even before I joined on his book writer. We worked a lot together, even just dramaturgically on the book. But I was always

Speaker 02376.58s - 2381.82s

interested in, you know, it's interesting when I feel like when you talk about musicals, a lot of

Speaker 92381.82s - 2387.08s

people say, oh, I don't like musicals right and I'll say well are you

Speaker 102387.08s - 2395.44s

not grumpy enough when you say that yeah exactly when people say that I say well are you

Speaker 92395.44s - 2415.98s

talking about the form or are you talking about the content because I feel like musical theater for some reason is as far as I can tell the only form where it's normal to say you don't like the form, right? People can say, like, if I said to you, I don't like movies. You'd be like what?

Speaker 102417.32s - 2421.96s

Horror movies, action movies, just the other night I was trying to find something to watch.

Speaker 92422.46s - 2425.34s

And I was like, wow, there's so much shit out there.

Speaker 102425.76s - 2429.36s

And then I was thinking about it, I'm like, but nobody would ever say, I don't like movies.

Speaker 12429.54s - 2435.34s

Even though of everything I was looking at, I'm like, man, there's so much crap out there, right?

Speaker 102435.64s - 2437.54s

Imagine someone's like, I don't like music.

Speaker 92438.32s - 2439.7s

Well, that's bizarre.

Speaker 02440.42s - 2449.66s

And so to apply that same, you know, or rather to apply a different kind of rigor to musicals,

Speaker 92449.8s - 2452.84s

because I would say, well, what musicals have you seen?

Speaker 02452.92s - 2454.86s

And what's your experience with them?

Speaker 92455.08s - 2526.7s

You know, it's a form. It's not content, actually. You know, that's the thing that I think we often conflate. And by the way, I've been guilty of that so many times. And I remember even, I would say about like 10 or 15 years ago, I had this moment where I was like, man,I think maybe I don't like musicals. And I'm like, no, I just don't like the ones I've seen recently. And that the things that, you know, I do the music for the Met Gala every year. The first year I did it, Anna Wintour wanted to do this big celebration of Broadway LOC coming back. So she asked me to put together this massive medley.And someone on the team said something to me about, you know, this is a room full of people who like don't care about musicals. And I said, I'm going to disagree with you on that. I said, you know, when you're growing up, you watch Disney ORG musicals. Those are musicals. You know, they make movies out of these things. You know, and the same thing I told John and Sack PERSON, which is that the pop artists backin the day were the people writing musicals. And I said, I don't know. Seems to me that Jay-Z really likes Annie PERSON. I don't know why he would sample Hard Knock Life WORK_OF_ART otherwise.

Speaker 02527.34s - 2570.56s

You know, Ariada Grande PERSON seems to be a fan of the sound of music. Seven Rings, by my count, has billions of streams, right? There are so many great examples of this. And so, you know, a lot of people maybe don't know that feeling good is from a musical, right? And, like, I've never seen a production of roar of the grease paint WORK_OF_ART, smell of the crowd, but I love that song. And there are plenty of songs.You know, I think of things that have permeated our culture, the whiz, which is now being revived, right? Right. There's so many things where, and also, you know, having with with David Byrne PERSON on on here lies love I remember talking to him about it too where he was saying like he grew up on

Speaker 92570.56s - 2585.94s

the sound of music it's like well of course he did you think people were like you think his parents were like hey we're gonna just show you a bunch of weird stuff right you know right now go be weird you know and amazing. Now go be weird, you know, and amazing.

Speaker 12586.82s - 2587.4s

You know?

Speaker 92587.66s - 2597.86s

Go be weird, David PERSON. Like, no, we, these are the things, these are the storytelling devices that we, that many of us have, you know, grown up on.

Speaker 102598.34s - 2600.36s

Time for a quick commercial break. Hang on a second.

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Speaker 102666.38s - 2671.68s

Singing in the Rain, Music Man and West Side Story, the three VHS PRODUCT tapes I wore out as a kid.

Speaker 22672.32s - 2675.44s

And I didn't see them as musicals.

Speaker 92675.44s - 2678.36s

I thought they were movies where people sang.

Speaker 22679.52s - 2679.96s

Absolutely.

Speaker 02680.88s - 2682.02s

And that's what they were to me.

Speaker 102682.08s - 2683.44s

And I was like, oh, I want to do more of that.

Speaker 92683.78s - 2685.56s

Now I went and then I went out and got weird. So. And by the way, these they were to me. And I was like, oh, I want to do more of that. Now I went, and then I went out and got weird.

Speaker 102686.24s - 2686.48s

So.

Speaker 92687.56s - 2725.1s

And by the way, these people were weird too. You know, it's like we've canonized, you know, Stephen Sondheim PERSON. But when you think about Merrily WORK_OF_ART, right? Like, or you think about Into the Woods or you think about Sunday, like any of these. You're like, these were weirdos. These were beautiful, brilliant weirdos who made crazy stuff. Like when I saw Merrily WORK_OF_ART, You're like, these were weirdos. These were beautiful, brilliant weirdos who madecrazy stuff. Like, when I saw Merrily WORK_OF_ART, I was like, that is so cool that these dudes just were like, you know what, it's going to go backwards and we're going to figure that out. And it's so cool to see that or to see something like into the woods which is like definitely fueled

Speaker 102725.1s - 2733.86s

by something other than you who you know yeah well at least act act too anyway yeah yeah

Speaker 92733.86s - 2739.6s

jeez you're right you're absolutely right and because i do know a lot of the musical theater

Speaker 102739.6s - 2767.06s

canon and i'm not like i'm actually a pretty bad musical theater fan when it comes to trivia of musical theater but when I hear stuff on the radio pop songs like now pop songs sample all of that and and yeah you're you're absolutely right I didn't even realize it till now that we hear this stuff all the time and I'm like I know what that's from but because I already knew it and it was common to me it never like it never triggered anything else in my mind to go deeper and think about, like, wait a second, Jay-Z PERSON likes musicals.

Speaker 12767.34s - 2776.56s

Yeah. Ariane Groni PERSON loves me, you know, so I totally agree with you. That's very, very cool. So when you said that to Anna Wintour PERSON, was she like, oh, okay, yes.

Speaker 102777.08s - 2778.44s

Do what you will.

Speaker 92778.58s - 2780.88s

She, I mean, she loves theater.

Speaker 102781.2s - 2782.1s

She's a major support.

Speaker 92782.1s - 2782.36s

I know.

Speaker 102782.46s - 2783.56s

She is always in openings.

Speaker 92783.84s - 2820.58s

She's a major supporter. And, you know, I'm so grateful that she, you know, she major I know, she is always at openings. She's a major supporter and, you know, I'm so grateful that she, you know, she came to the outsiders and she loved it and such an enthusiastic support. She's already sent so many people to it. And, you know, when I brought, she was not the one who, she literally hired me to make a bunch of you know a medley with a bunch ofsongs from musicals and my thought was oh how cool would it be if I pulled from all of these sampled and really famous songs that have come out of musicals and have crossed over into uh pop culture

Speaker 102820.58s - 2826.86s

oh that's so cool so I guess I guess she went for it. And it was, it was fantastic. It was so much

Speaker 92826.86s - 2833.94s

fun. Cool. All right. Well, let us start to wind down here. I have a little game that I play now.

Speaker 102834.02s - 2842.44s

All right. I put 60 seconds up on the clock. This is plot in 60 seconds. And you give me a number

Speaker 92842.44s - 2846.56s

corresponds to a list of popular musicals I have here

Speaker 102846.56s - 2857.02s

and then you have to give me the plot to that musical in 60 seconds so give me a number between one and 13 uh four um

Speaker 92857.02s - 2858.6s

book of Mormon go

Speaker 102858.6s - 2860.86s

60 seconds remaining okay uh

Speaker 92860.86s - 2865.52s

how many seconds do I have 56 56 okay so basically uh you know a bunch of Okay. How many seconds do I have? 56. 56 TIME. Okay.

Speaker 102866.12s - 2885.46s

So basically, you know, a bunch of white people think that it's their job to go to places where black and brown people live and teach them how to live better by following the way of Mormonism ORG.

Speaker 02886.04s - 2891.84s

And in doing so, what they learn is that actually they're the idiots for going over there

Speaker 62891.84s - 2895.62s

and that all these people actually didn't need their help at all.

Speaker 92895.62s - 2900.72s

And if anything, maybe there's something quite problematic about missionary work.

Speaker 02901.26s - 2906.86s

And it's also really funny. And I remember something about maggots in some scrotum.

Speaker 102907.18s - 2913.86s

That's what I, that's what I've got on that one. Okay. Nine seconds left on the clock. That was,

Speaker 92913.94s - 2920.64s

that was good. I loved it, though. It was really fun. So 51, 51 seconds TIME, and you got that.

Speaker 102920.82s - 2930.62s

51 seconds, and you got me to go see the show. Okay. Standard closing questions that I used to wrap up every episode. The first one, just very simply, is what motivates you.

Speaker 92930.62s - 2938.7s

What motivates me is the, are, you mean in life? Just what motivates me?

Speaker 102938.78s - 2939s

Yes. Okay.

Speaker 92939.52s - 2965.04s

What motivates me in life is the chance to experience as much life as possible. And I guess what I mean by that is I'm highly motivated to make things that are interesting to me and that excite me, but primarily so that I can then go and see what is out there in this crazy world. Nice.

Speaker 102965.36s - 2970.1s

All right. What advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now starting out on a similar path?

Speaker 92970.1s - 2979.36s

I would say follow more of the things that feel good to you and don't romanticize killing

Speaker 102979.36s - 2983.08s

yourself for the sake of success or for work.

Speaker 92983.88s - 2990.72s

I would say prioritize your friends and your family and keep the people who really see you close to you.

Speaker 32991.84s - 2992.9s

Oh, I love that.

Speaker 102993.56s - 3003.76s

All right, so the final question is the hardest one. If you could only see one show for the rest of your life, but you can see it as many times as you want, what would you see? I think it would be fiddler. Ooh, why fiddler?

Speaker 93004.4s - 3032.46s

For a number of reasons. I think it would be fiddler. Oh, why fiddler? For a number of reasons. I think it's the perfect musical in the sense that it is set in a time and a place. It's so specific to that place. The music is informed by that and embraces that and celebrates that as does the book, but also it is probably because of its specificity one of the most universal stories ever told. I agree. All right, where can we find you on

Speaker 103032.46s - 3038.9s

social media? I'm on Instagram, Justin Levine PERSON, just my name. I think that's about, yeah,

Speaker 93039.06s - 3046.56s

I think that's it for me on social media. Just mostly go see the the 12-time Tony PERSON-nominated show,

Speaker 103046.66s - 3047.6s

The Outsiders WORK_OF_ART.

Speaker 93048.4s - 3050.44s

I cannot say enough good things about the show.

Speaker 103050.68s - 3051.86s

It just works.

Speaker 03052.04s - 3099.72s

And actually, I meant to tell you this earlier when you brought up that the book relies on the music, relies on the choreography, relies on everything else, that this is... I literally walked out of the showsaying almost exactly that, saying that it never felt like it was chapter one a scene chapter two a song chapter three right it was everything from the beginning to the end was one object it was a show a musical and it traveled together and just worked and I told us to donya donya too that the way that all of you worked together to produce this is so apparent that you all collaborated so well, becauseI couldn't tell where the end of one category, one department stopped in the beginning of the next one started, because it all just became one thing. Thank you.

Speaker 93099.72s - 3120.2s

So good. That means a lot. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Well, of course. So everybody listening, find me online. I'm on the socials at Threads, Instagram ORG, TikTok, and Facebook ORG. Leave a rating, leave a review wherever you're listening to the podcast now. It helps the podcast grow. Go see the outsiders as always. Justin Levine PERSON, thank you so much. You've been a pleasure to talk to.

Speaker 33120.3s - 3139.92s

Thank you. Thank you. That under the cover, there's more. Have you ever wondered how your favorite performer actually feels?

Speaker 83140.3s - 3166.42s

Well, here's your chance. Welcome to The Quiet Part Out Loud with me, Bobby Stegger PERSON, Broadway LOC actor, and now a therapist to a whole host Broadway creatives. Part interview, part therapy, this is not your typical podcast. We'll go right to the heart of things with some of your favorite artists, what they still struggle with, what lessons they've learned,what they haven't figured out yet. There's enormous power in saying the quiet part out loud. Are you listening?

Speaker 03167.06s - 3218.62s

Hey, it's Leslie Urum Jr. here on the Broadway LOC podcast network to tell you about the Rise Theater Directory ORG, a program of maister music. Rise is a national online resource designed to connect and empower backstage and administrative and creative theater professionals from underrepresentedbackgrounds. If you work or aspire to work in the theater community, this can help you find your next project. And if you hire theater professionals, search the R-I-S-T-E-A-T-R-E-A-T-R-E-R-E-T-R-E-E-R-E-T-R-E-E-R-E-E-D-R-E-E. And get more information by visiting R-S-T-E-E-E ORG-E-E-R-E-E-E-E. And get more information by visiting--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------