582. "I can’t picture the next phase of my business. Where do I go from here?" | Coaching Session

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You're so talented and your stuff looks so good and people are telling you what they want from you. But it sounds to me like there's this fear and this overthinking of if I let it grow, I don't know how I'm going to do it. So maybe I just stay safe and don't grow it. Hi, I'm Jacqueline Snyder PERSON. And this is the product boss podcast. I've helped launch and growthousands of product-based businesses, even one of my own. And over the last 20 years, I've seen behind the scenes of businesses just like yours. Whether they are makers, manufacturers, artists, or food and beverage businesses, I have spent so many hours studying it all. I've discovered what makes them successful. What are mistakes they could avoid? How did they turn an idea into successful business? And what are strategies they have used to make more sales and be discovered by more customers? This is what this show is all about. Whether you'rejust starting out or you're looking to become a million dollar product boss, I'm here to give you the permission to chase your dreams, no matter how big or small. All you need is the right mindset, a little courage, strategy, and support, and you too can be the next million dollar product boss. Let's do this. Hey, product bosses. So today's coaching session is about something I see come up all the time. When you're the person creating your product, how do you scale without creating an endless amount of work for yourself?That's just one of the problems I'm tackling with Suzanne PERSON, who sells unique ceramics to high-end customers. She's currently busy working with local restaurants and collaborating with other artists, but she wants to start focusing on getting in front of her customers directly. What's her path to finding the right customers and getting her brand out there? Let's dive in and find out. Hey, product boss. So when it comes to running a product based business and wearing all of the hats, one of the most important hats you wear is ensuring your customers happiness. When your customers are happy, they will keep coming backfor more and more products, which is exactly what you want. However, sometimes it can seem difficult to keep up with all of the customer support emails. I totally get it, but don't worry because that's where HubSpot ORG's all-new service hub comes in. It brings service and success together on one powerful platform for the first time ever through using an AI-powered help desk and AI chatbot. With HubSpot ORG's all-new service hub, you can meet your customers where they are, especially as you continue to grow and scale your product biz. Visit HubSpot.com ORG slash serviceto learn how this all new solution can help you better meet your customer's needs. Suzanne, really excited to work with you today and to dig in in this coaching call with you and your ceramics business, but tell me a little bit about it.

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So I make ceramics mostly mostly dinnerware, serving pieces. I would say for someone who wants something a little bit different, what I mean is I've always been anti-trend, but also minimalist. And I would say if I was going to describe like my ideal client, she'd be someone in probably in her 40s, but her dream home would probably be just like anything in Dwell ORG magazine, like clean lines and natural materials. And then she needs my pieces to be kind of this organic, the imperfectly shaped pieces that I make.They kind of add life to that style.

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That's, you know, how I picture her in my mind. It says on your website, perfectly odd dishes even searching for it. But it's a really interesting thing where you're like, huh, you know, what is that? But it also describes it so well. Do you think so?

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Because I actually just changed it to that. I have worked on my whole, you know, ideal client avatar, if you will, so many times. And I just did it again. And so, yeah, you like the perfectly odd.

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I mean, I think for the words that you were trying to come out with, I think that it brought it up.

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And then when I look at the pictures, I'm like, oh, yeah. Now, are there better words that we can come up with? Absolutely.

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We can think about it and test and try. Where are you currently selling? Really just my website.

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And more recently, I've had some local restaurants reach out to me. So I've been working for the

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start of this year on a couple really large

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orders locally. I was really focusing on Instagram ORG in the past and just getting email subscribers and then, you know, emailing regularly and getting sales through my website that way. But I feel like I'm ready for kind of a different path this year. And then in the meantime, having these restaurant orders, you know, that's been a lot of work for me to do to kind of have. So I guess while I'm just, I already know what I'm making for the restaurants, I'm kind of thinking about this next direction, the strategy, like what's going to make the most

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sense for the rest of the year. So success leaves clues. So I want you to just see that while your Instagram ORG is beautiful, yes, it's hard to grow organically on Instagram. You know, our program SOS ORG, standout society, like that's one of the things I know that people struggle with is like how do we get in front of more customers. And while multi-stream machine teaches you how to do that using other channels, it's, I know a lot of people want to grow it. So thinking about both these programs and what they hold.But what you're telling me, if we just talk about the sales perspective of it, is that restaurants are buying from you and they're buying wholesale.

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Right? Is that what they're paying?

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Yes.

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And do you have sets or minimums that you're asking them to buy or you're just kind of letting them pick what they want?

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No, I've really only had a handful of restaurants kind of learn about my work.

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So I don't have anything put together for the restaurants per se.

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It's just I just came up with a price and, you know, people reached out to me and asked me.

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And so I just thought it with a price and, you know, people reached out to me and asked me. And so I just

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thought it through and did it. And then this year, it just all kind of happened at once. I think

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more people had learned about me. And then two new local restaurants are opening up. And so same thing.

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I'm just giving them wholesale prices. I didn't say minimum orders because they're really large orders.

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So I don't know. I don't have a. Well, see, even if you don't have a minimum and they're really large orders. So I don't, no, I don't have a, well,

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see, even if you don't have a minimum and they're large orders, I'd love for you to sell in sets, if possible, like, sets in the way of like, or like, buy the dozen. So instead of them saying,

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I want 28 of something, can you just push them to dozens at a time so that the work that you do, you build in dozens? And I don't know what they're buying. I don't know if they're buying,

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six pieces, eight pieces, like 24. What are you seeing them? So the first order this year, it was so

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clear to make because they just, what I put in front of them, like I just went to these restaurant owners and showed them what I had. I let them take them home actually for a week to like use them. And they came back with, all right, these are four favorites. Speaking of dozens, they wanted 24 pieces each of one plate, this bowl, that bowl, and a small plate. And so that order's done. The restaurant I'm working for now, his stuff is, I would say, I don't mean to say more specialized, but there's something very unique about this chef's food.And so he really wants even some custom pieces like this piece has to go with this exact shape. So I actually finally made myself charge a design fee

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because I hadn't been doing that in the past. Well, if you charge the right prices, it'll be worth it,

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right? And people who really want something and that have the money, they will say yes or no to it.

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Then when you say you started charging a design fee, was it a significant design fee or was it like 100 bucks? So I charged him 150 for just three

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like iterations. And that was even hard for me to do in the past. I didn't charge any design fee. I know this now because I've done it multiple times where I said, yeah, I think, yeah, that shouldn't be too hard to make. And then once you start, it's just, oh, wait, how do I figure out this? How do I figure out that? So I at least charged that. And I also said up to three slight changes basically in the piece. Like I'll make it this way, make it that way. And then if we go farther than that, then I'm going to need to.

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So when I've, I would develop clothing in Los Angeles. And so they would be called samples, right? So every iteration was a sample. And we'd have to, you know, send it out and go through the whole process and get the product back. It wasn't my hands. I wasn't cutting and sewing all the garments.But what I will say to you is that crafting this, putting in the kiln, working on it, I would pay T-shirts $150 to see a T-shirt sampled, not paying service for it. So really what I want you to start to think about is what is your time worth? If you said that one of your biggest struggles is that you'd like to get your company to $5,000 a month, you want to start to build a business that has revenue, right? So some of this has to be, like you're so talented and the stuff you make is so beautiful. So the two places we know is that one, not enough people know you exist. So we'll get into that part. The second part is this is a really cool part of your business because you are so high level in design that it makes sense. So if someone wants to come to you for any sort of customization, I want you to create a package that is something that you're like, all right, it will cost me, you know, for thethree iterations, let's say, per style, because you're going to have to design it. It holds space in your mind, right? And then the meetings you take with them are hours of your time. So everything you say yes to, you're saying no to something else. So every time you go meet with him or go through an iteration and go back and forth, it's awesome to be collaborative. But that means that same hour, you're not working on whatever else you wereplanning on working on in your business. So, you know, is it $500 per design development where you're going through design development? It comes with one iteration and then they pay for each additional one like $150. You set a time amount. I know it sounds scary to hear this number. But if I had the money and they're paying interior designers and custom people to build out their restaurants to have a very certain thing.So if they want the privilege of working with an artist like you to craft something to go with the way his meals are placed, then you're cheap. Like I can't even, there's like apps called Yardson PRODUCT where you can get your yard designed virtually. And I think their base package is $500 for a virtual designer. And if you ever work with an interior designer, they're very expensive. So you're crafting and creating art pieces that he's already used to paying people. So whatever you're comfortable with, as you move forward into this realm, there's a fee to do custom.And then there's a fee for each iteration. And it's up to a certain amount around. So $150 is way undercharging for you.

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I would have done $500 per style.

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So if you were doing three customs with him, it's $1,500. Like that, to me, is cheap to then get something crafted by you to put in a restaurant that perhaps I want to get a Michelin Star on. I don't know. I don't know the kind of restaurant. But chefs are aspiring for that, especially a chef that's working so closely with you on plates. Okay.

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What are your thoughts?

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I mean, I totally hear what you're saying.

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And if this, you know, situation comes up again, I'll definitely think through what you're saying.

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I just being in the city where I'm located, which isn't a huge city, it's a small city.

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I'm not sure how many, you know, restaurant orders all beginning. We'll see if more restaurants keep coming back to me. Well, you're not thinking big enough. It doesn't have to be your town. So I'll tell you my hold up for out of town things because I did a while ago have a restaurant in Virginia contact me like maybe two years ago. We're actually they're friends with these local ones. That's how these local ones found me because they were like, we're looking for ceramics. He's like, you have them right in your time. But I was, the shipping, the packing and the

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shipping of all those pieces. I know, but the packing, it's, I spend so much packing orders. But here's

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a deal. If you're making money, if your business starts to make money, my goal for you is you're no

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longer packing your orders. So we know that there's the two places that product people bottleneck are the making and then the fulfillment. So what would it look like if you could right now with the current state of your business, stay on the front end of the design development, like the working with the product and you had someone that came to you. The goal is that your business starts to grow. And so they come to three times a week for three, four hours a day. And that's their whole job is like packing and fulfilling.So I know you can't see it yet, but I want you to know there's a solution to every problem. So don't block yourself off because what's happening is most restaurants aren't going to all want the same plates because then they're going to look alike, especially if it's a small town. So you probably are at your max in your town.

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But they have friends that are in the industry. They're going to come visit. They're going to

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these are amazing. Or they know people. And they're going to be like, contact Suzanne PERSON. And so don't say no to it. But if you charge the right amount, if you have minimums, if all

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of a sudden you're making $10,000, $15,000, $20,000 a session, you can go hire

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somebody for let's say $15 an hour. I don't know. I'm going to round up to $20 an hour. And you're paying somebody $100 a day to pack for you, but you got a $10,000 order.

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Yes, all day every day, the math, maths, you know? Yeah. It's true. It's true that I haven't really let myself think. I mean, I've thought about those things, but it's the whole, you know? Yeah, it's true. It's true that I haven't really let myself think. I mean, I've thought about those things, but it's the whole, you know, having my studio in my house like I do. And then the thought of like, what, I have someone coming into my house to do that. And I know, you're right. It's all kind of little

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blocks of just where I'm at. One thing that keeps businesses from growing is that we as operators get stuck in thinking at the level we're currently at. You want more orders and that's why you're getting coaching. You want to see your business grow, but at the same time, you're imagining that to 10x your business is going to 10x the time and effort it takes to get there. It's just not true. You can hire. You can outsource. You can find ways to do more work in less time as you scale and grow your business. Don't hold yourself back by thinking small. You have to think big in orderto grow. Are you an overthinker? Yeah. Would you say I should overthink?

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You know, definitely.

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I mean, I would say I'm a blend of, you know, sometimes like insanely optimistic where I think anything's possible like to the extreme without any practicality linked to it.

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But yes, then, you know, sure. Just, I mean, we all get stuck in our lives, our day to day. You know, I'm homeschooling. My kids are here.

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Like, am I going to have someone coming in my basement? I would need better systems, really, for packing is one thing. So one thing I'm sensing from you right now is that you're the reason you're not growing because it sounds like there's a lot of noise that's getting in the way of you doing the things perhaps would be the way like you're you're doing them but like in a safe way because you're like can't grow because I can't have anyone in my basement doing this so I'm just going to hold back or yeah I could sell to other restaurants but then if it gets too big then I'm going to have to pack them all and I don't want to do it and our brain is going to and I'm not saying that I don't think this all the time. My husband had to talk me off a ledge this morning. He's like, you know, you're talking real negative to yourself and what do you think your results are going to be? And I was like, yeah, I know, but I'm in it. So leave me alone. You know, think that you're so talented and your stuff looks so good. And people are telling you what they want from you. But it sounds to me like there's this fear and this overthinking of if I let it grow,I don't know how I'm going to do it. So maybe I just stay safe and don't grow it. And it could be

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subconsciously. You know, that's definitely, I've been aware of that. And I would say that probably if we end up talking next about just my other thoughts as far as a different way to grow of more, you know, direct selling to people like getting an audience. I guess what I was thinking was that I just realized now with making these larger orders for the restaurants, kind of the capacity of like what I can make like in a month. And could I grow my audience to where I'm selling more directly? So making moreretail prices, at least to grow in that way in the coming months, like after these restaurant orders are done. You know, I was trying to figure out like the maximum way to to kind of max profits

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for where I'm at right now. So what I want you to realize is you're at capacity right now because you're a solo person and the product takes a long time. Same thing. If you grow it, you can hire people that you train that are other artists on how to do parts, whether they learn to shape the bowl or they're the ones who put it in the kiln and they glaze itor whatever the process is, you will teach parts of processes. Maybe there's someone that, you know, bring on and they're the ones who put it in the kiln, they glaze it, or whatever the process is, you will teach parts of processes. Maybe there's someone that, you know, bring on and they're the person who does like bowls and platters, or I don't know, something simpler. And then you do some of the more sophisticated pieces. But I've worked with many pottery companies at this point that have scaled to multiple millions, multiple millions, and they are still smaller studios.The artist like you is still there. So one of them, she was on the podcast long time ago, is Virginia Sin PERSON, and Sin is her company. And she sells that at CB2 ORG. So it's still all handmade, I think, in New York GPE, last I saw it. And if you follow her on social media, you'll see, like, she shows how they make the product, but there's just a lot more people making it. So currently in your basement, as is, no, it may not be completely possible, but maybe eventually it expands into a liquor worker's warehouse, you know, or one person you do trust and bring into your house and they're down in the basement while you're homeschooling upstairs,for example, you know, on Fridays, they make plates and on, they could make X amount of plates on that Friday. They put them in the kiln. We know how long that process takes. And Mondays, they put in the bowls, right? So you then start to work in blocks and batches. So what might be interesting is, like, if you have stock that we can buy from, and certain things might take longer, but if you could start building up stock and then whatever you sell to me, whatever you put in front of me and you position, you're like on your websiteright now, I go and there's like dinner plates, I'm going to buy what you show me. So if you showed me an entire table scape, I'm going to buy that. So you get to choose what you feel like selling. And then you can kind of not promote the other stuff or that stuff could be on waitlist or pre-orders because they're sold

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out as of right now. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I don't always have it like that on my site. It's just really because I'm doing these restaurant orders right now. So I think that what's

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beautiful and amazing about what's happening for you right now is you're testing your capacity on a bigger order. Like it's going to be more apparent to you where the bottlenecks are. So that if you're like, oh, okay. So let's start getting $6,000 worth of orders a month or let's start getting $10,000 with orders a month, whatever it is. And however you get it, you're just going to be like, oh, here's where our capacity is, here's where our bottlenecks are happening. How do I optimize and systemize this process so that I can grow? Because you get to control what happens in yourbusiness in the way of, I'm looking at your cheese flatters. It says only three remaining. Right. So if you wanted to sell those three, all you have to do is send an email about it or post it. I'm not saying that you have all the traffic there, but I'm just going to give examples. Post it on social media and be like, only three left. You know, you send an email, only three of these. You just have to communicate to your customers. Like, hey, I want to sell this thing. So a really good example. Once we had someone in our mastermind, she had this like lemon bowl that she had made.And she's like, it's really expensive. It's $400. It's one of my more expensive pieces. People aren't buying it. And so we said to her, we're like, well, have you tried to sell it? Because it was up on a shelf in her store.I'm like, have you tried to move it? And she's like, well, no, I mean, it's there. But they just don't buy it. We're like, okay, great. Throw it on your Instagram because she had an Instagram following. Talk about it. Talk about lemons. Talk about the bowl. Like, give it some attention. And she sold it, like within 24 hours. So it's this power of like what we talk about. Our customers want us to tell them what to buy. So when we do work and get you the customer inflow, you can easily say, hey, I want you to buy this or don't talk about it and they won't go to it as often. Does that make sense?

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Yeah, I mean, and I definitely do that.

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I sold a ton that way.

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Right before Christmas, I got invited to this local country club and it was like five weeks out. And I just, I know I was like debating because of the whole like not making brand new things. The best sellers, right? Like, but I was thinking, okay, holidays. Like I don't have any little easy to buy holiday stuff. So I just started making those two size oval platters.And I was so glad that I did actually because I sold a bunch at that country club sale. And then I came home and I was just like on Instagram stories and like over and over and over again, platters, platters. And I did. I sold so many of them. And I have sent out emails again when the batches came out. And I sold a few more.But, you know, I would say my email list is just about 500 people now. Amazing. Not huge. But I do try to email once a week. I was like perfect with that for a while. But with these restaurant orders, like that's all I'm doing. So I still though, I will like promote the things.And I see that that works. Not always because a lot of people have bought them. They just need something else

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to buy. So it's basically you continuing to share new stuff with them and, you know,

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everyone needs a reason to buy something. So I'm glad that's a great list. That's like a great

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list size that you have. And so let's just say, I don't know, Easter, we just passed Easter at the time of this recording. And, you know, for example, so it would have been this lead up to you launching and getting their heads around with enough time for them to order it or that you were sitting on the product of like an Easter table scape. And you just start to seed for them. Oh, yeah. Like that's exactly how I want my table to look for Easter. And they're pre-ordering it earlier because Easter is one of those times that people gather for meals the same way that another busy time for you is going to be fall winter holidays.

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Your customers want to be told what to buy. Let me repeat this again if you're not paying attention.

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Your customers want you to tell them what to buy. It's common to think, oh, I'll just give them all of the options and they'll choose what makes the most sense to them. It's a nice thought, but customers don't actually shop that way. Leaning into seasonal strategies, batching production, and then making a big push towards selling one specific item makes it easier for customers to make the decision to buy, or at least market those specific items so that your customers know, hey, this is what I should buy right now.Hey, hey, product boss. Okay, it's podcast recommendation time, which is my favorite time, because this month I'm all about listening to Business Made Simple, hosted by one of my mentors and friends, Donald Miller PERSON, which is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Each week, Don takes the mystery out of growing your business with easy to implement actionable steps to help your marketing feel easier and smoother. It's game changing, so be sure to tune in. This is one ofthose podcasts I never, ever miss. So listen to Business Made Simple ORG wherever you get your podcasts. Oh my goodness, friends. Have you heard that we just launched a brand new program called Standout Society ORG, your eight-week product biz breakthrough to getting more customers and standing out in a crowded market? Listen, I know that product business owners, they need to learn how to get paying customers and stand out in a crowded market without all the things, right, without lowering your prices, without paying for ads, without thinking you need to do all these other things. Tim Ferriss PERSON has had this quote and he said,even if you have the best possible version of what it is you're selling, if no one knows about it in the first place, then you don't have a market. So this brand new program is for literally anyone who sells products, whether you're just starting out or you've been in business for years. If you're a business that needs customers and you're struggling to reach your ideal audience and get them to convert to sales, then this is for you.Now, I am so excited because I'm teaching this totally live. It's the very, very, very first time that we're launching it. I'm teaching it live over eight weeks. And it will actually be the only time I teach this live. So if you decide to join in the future, which you totally can, I can't promise that the price will ever be this low. And I know that I will not be teaching it live again. So if you're like, I want this, let's do thisover the next eight weeks. Let's do it together, my friends. All you have to do is head to the product boss.com slash sOS, the product boss.com slash sOS because here's the deal. We're going to dig into the four foundational bits of your business that I think so many people have missed. They've gone from coming up with the idea, making the product, and jump straight to selling it. But here's the deal. No amount of trainings or courses or tactics or anything that I teach you in any of my other programs are going to work if you don't have clear foundations in your business. And I know thatthat's not like the sexiest thing to hear, but guess what is? Getting more customers. So if you're feeling fuzzy and unfocused and frustrated and you're like, I'm trying to do this, but I don't know what to do, this is the time that we have to go back in and think this is what you have to do. So the standout society, the whole goal to this is to have you have a breakthrough in your business over the next eight weeks because I want to help you get more customers and stand out in a crowded market.So head to the product boss.com slash sOS, the product boss.com slash sOS. And I cannot wait to see you inside. So I know you said you wanted to get to some of your next questions. So what do you want to

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dig into? Like where would you like to take it? What I was thinking about as I looked through the last few years, just of how things have gone. Like last year, I thought I was taking a step to kind of grow my audience because before that, I had really just like a handful of women had found me and just were buying so much of my stuff. And I was like, if I could just get a couple more, a few more of these people who just love my stuff, that would be great. And I ended up doing this collaboration with a pretty well-known designer.It was an awesome experience. But I think I grew my audience to this collaborative collection, which is not my, you know, the way that my things look. It was different. It was very colorful. Like we designed it together. So it was an amazing experience, but I was like, okay, you know, I did, like I said, grow my audience. But I was just thinking that it would be far smarter at this point to find some ways to really just, well, direct traffic differently. I was thinking of, you know, specifically like the times when people buy, which is when they're redesigning their kitchen, this kind of like thinking about this wholelike kitchen redesign. I was thinking of content, you know, like how I can draw more people in. So I was thinking of that time. And also a couple summers ago, I had a bride register like using one of those sites that you can register anything on. So just those two ideas, what I was kind of thinking of developing content around that, like one, writing a story on how to, kind of like a how to story, how to register using these sites, like register, you know, handmade pottery, that kind of thing.And I really want to start leaning more heavily into Pinterest versus Insights ORG. like register, you know, handmade pottery, that kind of thing. And I really want to start leaning more heavily into Pinterest versus Instagram ORG. That's why this year I've really, I've been just doing stories, keeping my most of days stories going with Instagram ORG. But one thing that I wrote like a blog post a few years ago on Pinterest ORG is still bringing traffic to my website right now. And I just thought, I want to put my effort into something that's going to be morethis evergreen versus, you know, the social media that just kind of disappears. And you feel like you have to work so much on it. Like I was working so, so much on Instagram for a while. And I gained people,

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but just, you know. Yeah. I mean, so what you're saying is, I mean, and this is inside of MSM, so the SEO module where we teach you about how to get people in the back door. And then since you know how to use Pinterest ORG, use it for that. Because it's exactly what you're saying is people are searching for a solution to a problem or they're searching for a look. So when I go on Pinterest, I might be like yesterday when I was like, I'm going to reorganize

Speaker 11812.22s - 1828.04s

my whole fridge. That was the mood I was in. And I was like, how to organize vegetables in your vegetable drawer. I was just like, I wanted to visually see a really awesome looking fridge with it and it took me to other people's blogs. What I want you to process and the information you learned from this other person that you

Speaker 01828.04s - 2020.58s

collaborated with is I want you to really dig into who is your ideal customer and know that she is actually someone who's probably affluent, wealthy, trendy, has a very specific kind of look and feel to her home. She's probably into art. She understands that she's going to pay more for certain things. You might actually be priced low. So I haven't done market research on your competition,but you really have to get into where would she shop if they were bigger places? Like CB2 ORG, crate and barrel, I think your stuff is more of like a CB2, maybe West Elm ORG. You're not a pottery barn or a looms in Sonoma GPE because those things are, they're like more classic. So you want to think about like the bigger kind of chain big box stores, also understanding interior designers and certain types of interior designers and how they style. Because you want to know who is my customer and who is she following. What is she lookingup? Like what is influencing her and her choices? It could be creators on social. It could be, I know I follow certain interior designers that I, like, I align with for certain things. And then the same thing for you is you're actually a tastemaker and also a designer that we would follow to be like, oh, I follow, I don't know, I'm just going to say Kelly Worsler PERSON. And you might be, you're not 100% Kelly Worsler, but let's just say she's very artistic. And then I discover your stuff at the same time, because we, you know, I follow, and I'm just going to say Kelly Worsler, and you might be, you're not 100% Kelly Worsler PERSON, but let's just say she's very artistic.And then I discover your stuff at the same time because we've got similar audiences that follow, and then they go from there. So you could do blogs on interior designers that your ideal customer might be looking up, your top 10 favorite interior designers for table scapes. But I want you to come up with things that actually are going to attract your ideal customer and what she would look for, which is a more elevated, high-end design-aware customer.It's not a person who goes and buys her plates from Target ORG in a box. I've been her, but that's not your customer. You're not looking for the person who's going for the plastic. You know, like you're someone who, like you said, it doesn't break. So they covet it. They'll pay a lot for it.And I see that in the chefs that you're working with and in the way you present forward. So any kind of content you make, I want it to just be aligned with. Like, it's like a fishing line and you want to reel in the ideal people for you. What would she be searching for? So I do think that Pinterest ORG is a really excellent way for you to do this. And you could also do, I don't always tell people to do a freebie download,but you let's say could potentially do one. There's been a thing that I've done before where it's like how to make my bed and set up my pillows, you know, to look like a hotel room. So you could have a table scape set up if you thought that your ideal customer wanted to know, like, you know, there's a plate going on top of the plate and the forks and the knives and like the way to do the napkins. You could do an opt-in likethat. You don't need to. But, you know, you just think of other ways to get people in because we want to get their email addresses. We want to keep growing that list. So I agree with that part. The second thing you said that you've worked in collaboration. So I do think it would be interesting for you to kind of where I was going. Also was if you find interior designers that you can collaborate with, I saw on your blog, which is old. It's from 2021. It's under stories. And it's the charcutory boards in progress.

Speaker 22020.88s - 2030.36s

That's the one that everyone comes to from Pinterest ORG. And I think it's so cool. Oh, really? So you're also getting data that people are coming and they're looking for them,

Speaker 02030.4s - 2035.2s

but you don't actually have. So that is actually a really cool product to consider because you said

Speaker 22035.2s - 2040.88s

people are still coming for it or understanding like how do I subsidize it. So why handmade ceramics

Speaker 02040.88s - 2046.16s

make food taste better? I don't know that that's something I'm looking for, but I might be looking for a chakoutary board,

Speaker 22046.24s - 2047.82s

and that might be how you got posted.

Speaker 02048.34s - 2049.74s

Pinterest ORG is a search engine.

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So people go to Pinterest ORG to search.

Speaker 02052.04s - 2116.84s

How do I pack for a European NORP vacation? How do I make my bed? You know, how to plan for my wedding? All of that, like Pinterest ORG is not a social media platform. It's a search. So you want to look at, then what would my ideal customer cometo Pinterest to search and how can I meet her? So it may board design. There's some amazing Instagram ORG people that do shakutery boards. And you can actually do a collab with them that you're like, let's do like a thing. I'm going to send you a shakutery board. Could you use it and design it, right? And then you do a collab and maybe it's a giveaway for one of their followers. So these are ways to follow the clues that are being left for you and thinking about the right types of collaborations for you where really it might be people using your product.They could do giveaways. They can do a giveaway for a gift card. Whatever it is because your stuff is so cool. You don't have a flooded market of competition. Sure, there's pottery people. But this stuff is you and your art.So it's actually coveted. Most people don't know it exists yet. I think your price point is very accessible. It might be too low, but it's just the awareness of your brand actually existing out there. Okay. So when you

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are saying collaborations, you just mean like that kind of, like you, the example of you said charcutory board and someone who does charcutory. Not like because the collaboration I did last year with, it was actually Alvin Wayne PERSON.

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Was it? It was Alvin Wayne PERSON. Awesome designer and even just amazing person.

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It was great. But it, the project was like six months from start to finish. From us working on it to the making,

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like the glaze testing. Oh my gosh. It's so much time. So it was great. And I really have

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gotten a larger network of interior designers because I do also find that interior designers are very drawn to my pieces. So that's been great. I grew my network in that way and just met some great people. So that, you know, there were definitely my network in that way and just met some great people. So that was definitely, there were definitely benefits to it. I just, I think with where I'm at right now, I don't think I'm.

Speaker 02173.1s - 2173.84s

It wasn't your aesthetic.

Speaker 22174.06s - 2188.78s

So the collaboration you did was a collaboration, but outside of your aesthetic. So when you do a collab like that, there's reasons one. There's just like the revenue that potentially you'll make by selling it. But you do have to think further. So I'm doing an event coming up that's a podcasting event

Speaker 02188.78s - 2355.44s

where I'm going to be speaking about being a podcaster, two other podcasters. So I had to make a decision that I was going there and I wasn't going to grow my product boss audience because they're not product people. So if my team looks at it, my team might be like, you know, this is actually, what's the ROI on this? You know, what is the reason you're doing this? And I have to come up with a good reason. I'm doing it because I love the person hosting it, because I want to share the information I have about it. It's something that I'd like to do,but it doesn't have the result that I want for my business. So, so yeah, a bunch of people might get to know me. So this is how I flipped it. I was like, okay, I'm going to do this. And I'm actually going to let these podcasters know that if they have product people in their audience, they can come and like, we're going to give them a freebie on like how to help product people in their audience. So I'm trying to work at that. I can still be helpful to them. They have an awareness of me, but they're not my ideal customer. So how can they shareit with my ideal customer? So you just have to think about this for everything you say yes to. And this is really cool because when you do collaborations, it validates you, I guess. Right? Like we at the product boss kicked off in the very beginning because we had Create Joy ORG approached us. We had 10 episodes out, maybe a thousand people listened. We never even told them the numbers. But Create Joy is a platform for subscription businesses and they knew that we had a product podcast. And so they paid us a lot of money to do a collab with them. And do we teach subscription boxes?We don't. But that was like the very, very beginning. Everyone that came into us is like, oh, we found you through Create Joy ORG. We found you through Create Joy. So it was good because that was like the next thing that set us up. So just was good because that was like the next thing that set us up. So just use what you did as like a lift off point. If you do other collaborations, maybe it's with interior designers, but they align with it. So it's like they might help you with the shape, but it's in your aesthetic. And I love that for you as as maybe like maybe once a year,you do some sort of collab. And that's like an extra lift. But what works for you is the awareness in front of other people's audiences. So when you can, like where I'm looking is you're like, everybody comes for this circuitry board. Chircudery boards have been a trend. So you should be making them or maybe you're not because they don't work, but let's say you go back into them.Then you search social media. You can find it through people on Instagram ORG. You can find it through Pinterest, short cutery boards. There's people who plate them, that do them, that teach them. There's people who do workshops for them. And if they have an audience of people that follow them because they want to mimic that look, collaborate with them, send them a board. And that'sgoing to get you, because now people are going to be like, I want to recreate that look. I'm coming to Suzanne PERSON to buy the charcutory board. And that's how you start to blow through product. And you're like, I'm doing this clav. I'm going to have 25 of them ready. And that's my goal to sell 25. Right. You might blow through that really easy. Does that make sense? Yep. No. I was

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just thinking like the fact that I don't have Shopify ORG, that's also something I've been wondering about. Like, don't have Shopify ORG? No.

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Your website's pretty.

Speaker 22367.54s - 2367.84s

So what do you use?

Speaker 02373.06s - 2373.76s

I use Square ORG, which I don't wish that I started out with them, but I did.

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And I am where I am. So I feel like it has a few features that just aren't really user-friendly for, like they give my

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customers questions, I guess.

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So I love Shopify ORG because it grows with you, right? So, and I'm not promoting it because,

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I mean, I have an affiliate link, but I'm promoting it because I believe in it as a product

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that that allows for small business owners in the beginning to use templates that are

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optimized for e-commerce, which is what it is when you sell online. And when

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you eventually grow, you could be Shopify Pro. So you could have a $25 million business, a $50 million

Speaker 02411.2s - 2555.42s

business. It can also operate where you don't have to go out and build your own code or do your own back on. Like there's, when I started out, I had to build so much of, I had to use a cart. It was called 3D cart that I had to attach to a website to do transactions. It was not how easy it is for all of you today. So is this the project that you have to do of changing over to Shopify? I don't think yet because it doesn't sound like making a ton of sales. You could do it where you're like, okay, I'm really going to think I want to grow this businessand come the fall when it's a busy time of year for me'm really going to think I want to grow this business and come the fall when it's a busy time of year for me and be ready to kind of like relaunch and you can build it. I think you can still get by with the current site. I think your photos are beautiful. I think the layout is beautiful. What we have to do is like if you're going to make it rain, we need the buckets to catch it. So if you're going to do more marketing, get on Pinterest ORG and do it, we need to have the product to sell.Because if not, then we have effort for no reason. So I think your site still works for you. It looks to me like it is an easy to navigate site. Sure, there could be some clunkiness to it. But it feels like there's other operational things to get going so that you know that when you do start getting Pinterest ORG going, maybe you're working with some collaborations where people are getting you in front of their audiences, then you have the product to sell because what's the point of doing all that marketing if youdon't have product to sell to them? Once you start identifying your ideal customer, you can start getting creative about how to bring them in. Now, Instagram ORG has worked well for a lot of product bosses in the past, but it's far from the only way to grow. Suzanne has seen some success before with Pinterest ORG, and her product is a natural fit with its aesthetic look. So it makes sense to double down on that. We also touched on how collaborating with someone whose audience overlaps with your idealcustomer can help you grow quickly and convert those to sales by getting yourself in front of the right people. Second thing I want to suggest and offer to you as an idea, I'm just going to seed it for you, but I know you're going to have to think about it, is I actually think you might be really great to wholesale. Like, yes, we can drive our own traffic, but there is this level ofinfluence. There's a company called, it's at Hudson Grace ORG. There's like at the Brentwood market, right? So you go to places that are expensive. So let's say Brentwood GPE in L.A.

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Places in the Hamptons, like Greenwich Village LOC, like go to places that have a lot of money

Speaker 02560.02s - 2589.98s

that people have an aesthetic. And I would find the retailers and I would actually try and sell wholesale to them, even if they had a set, but they didn't have all of them to sell, but they took orders for you and then submitted to them to you and then you shipped them to people. But I do think that there's this another way for you to start to grow your name is that it is to associate you with retail partners that have influence on their community. So I just want to see the idea of wholesale for you long term because that to me seems like

Speaker 12589.98s - 2594.38s

an easier lover for you to pull than growing a, I know you're not going to necessarily do

Speaker 02594.38s - 2600.18s

Instagram ORG, but like driving your own traffic to your own website, it's going to take other people's audiences, I think, to start.

Speaker 22600.56s - 2635.16s

Okay. Yeah. And there's one thing I was realizing that I really don't have a good kind of return policy in place. I don't have any, basically, if something breaks in transit, I've replaced it for people, but I don't know. What's the best way to like figure out how to do that? Because I don't say, like, I'll take returns returns and I really have neverhad anyone want to return anything but I feel like there should be something clear on there that people are probably I mean when I buy things I always look for the return policy and just see

Speaker 02635.16s - 2640.1s

what the policies are so so I would do your market research at who your competitors are yeah

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at the higher price point don't look at what CB2 ORG offers because they're a huge corporation but like go look at other companies and offers because they're a huge corporation.

Speaker 02650.08s - 2675.84s

But go look at other companies and say, like, what is their return policy? Now, a lot breaks in shipping pottery. But I would look at them and I would say, what do you like from what they have and what don't you like? And then make your own version of it. So I would go and look at similar high-end companies that sell pottery. I'd see what the return policies are for customers to ship back.There might be a restock fee because, again, now they have to pack it and send it back to you and it has to exist. So you might have a restocking fee, store credit only.

Speaker 12676.62s - 2680.14s

You know, like that happens with some furniture companies.

Speaker 02680.26s - 2684.92s

You can return it, but you're going to pay 15% restocking and then I don't get my cash back.

Speaker 12690.2s - 2694.34s

So that's what I would say is your return policy. And then guarding yourself on the other end of when you ship it out, like how do you want to insure yourself if something does break?

Speaker 02694.94s - 2699.42s

Because I think they only insure up to $100. Okay. Okay. Like without extra insurance.

Speaker 22699.42s - 2703.46s

So yeah, so go into the multi-stream machine Facebook group. Some of these questions you could probably

Speaker 02703.46s - 2705.12s

ask in there, too.

Speaker 22705.42s - 2705.64s

Yeah.

Speaker 12706s - 2710.86s

Especially when it comes to you can collaborate with someone and ask them to do a website audit for you.

Speaker 02711.04s - 2792.14s

You can ask people with their return policies and you can tell them exactly what it is, like with the product. I think that you have such potential to grow. You just need to be open to the fact. It's like the same with our kids, right? Like I've never raised an eight-year-old girl before. I'm in it. And then she's going with our kids, right? Like, I'll say, like, I've never raised an eight-year-old girl before. I'm in it.And then she's going to be nine, right? So as you grow your business, you're going to be in it. And then it's going to move to another phase and into another phase. So just let yourself take these, like, baby steps through it and be like, when that problem arises. So if you make it rain and all of a sudden you're making a ton of money and orders are coming in, then you'll know you can solve for it in that moment,but you'll want to kind of start thinking about it now where you're like, okay, I'm going to solve for it in the moment. I can hire if I need to hire. But if you can kind of start pre-planning and preparing your brain now, you're like, hey, when I get there, I'll solve for it.And then that will allow some space for you to keep moving upwards and forwards. But I do think wholesale, I think restaurants, I think those are two really great things. I think collabs with other people of influence. And also some more market research on your part because another thing can be is your stuff could be priced quite low. And so your ideal customer might be like these are actually really low for what they're used to spending on. So that also sometimes repels your idealcustomer. There's a little bit more of that, but then you have all the tools to grow it from here. Okay. It's so funny. You're saying they're

Speaker 22792.14s - 2804.54s

priced low. I mean, I do look at other, you know, just kind of well-known people. And I know there's such a range, you know, but yeah, okay, I'll definitely. That's why I think knowing who your ideal

Speaker 02804.54s - 2805.3s

customer is. Yeah. Because what's low to someone is high to someone else. So, you know, but yeah, okay, I'll definitely. That's why I think knowing who your ideal customer is.

Speaker 22805.38s - 2808.3s

Yeah. Because what's low to someone is high to someone else.

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So, you know, I know someone who married a billionaire, okay?

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So this is like a lot of money.

Speaker 02814.64s - 2886.48s

And I remember my mom telling me, you know, gossip. And she's like, yeah, they went and stayed at a hotel and like, you know, I think it was really expensive. They were probably paying like $800 a night or something. So me being my mother's daughter and also being nosy, I went and looked up the hotel. It was $8,000 a night. $8,000 a night. Not $800. So to her 800 was like top of her budget.And then they're spending, I don't know how many weeks in multiple rooms at $8,000. And to them they might be like, yeah, that's our every day. So it's just we don't know more than what we maybe know, what we've been raised by, like, what we're exposed to. But let's just go with Virginia Sinegan PERSON. And actually, she actually came out with a plate. It's a plate that looks like it was something she did a long time ago,and it's actually in the design museum in New York City GPE. It's a plate that looks like a paper plate. But she sells a berry bowl for $98, a utensil holder for $98, a platter for $150. Oh, here's her dinner plate. Porcelain paper plate, that's the one that's in the thing, for $72 for one plate. She's highly successful. I own a lot of her pieces, and she sells to CB2. I mean, my dinner plate is 58 right now.

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So, you know, a little bit of difference.

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It is different.

Speaker 22891.26s - 2893.42s

Your stuff to me, I'm going to be honest, feels cheap.

Speaker 02893.76s - 2908.84s

Like, I'm actually, I can afford your stuff and I couldn't afford. And I can also afford Virginia stuff. And I look at yours and I'm like, they feel more like prices that if I went to Macy's ORG and bought pleats that everybody else has at Macy's ORG.

Speaker 22908.9s - 2927.84s

It's so funny because I feel like I've really worked on the pricing and like the things that, like the words you're saying to me are words I've heard you say before because I listen to podcast and I like, yes, I'm going to listen and I'm going to do it. And then you're saying that I haven't done it, which is just so funny.

Speaker 02928.26s - 2928.62s

No, no.

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But here's a difference.

Speaker 02930.44s - 3076.6s

You're probably priced correctly if we did the normal market. What is the material cost? How much did I charge per hour? Yeah, you're probably crushing it. But the cool thing about you and your product, and they say this about Chanel ORG bag, so I'll just bring it up again.A Chanel ORG bag is just a leather bag with some metal on it, with a chain. But the reason why somebody's going to spend, by the way, they went up like 30%. So I think you can get it on a Chanel ORG bag at like $10,000 now, which is bonkers. Like, it's not that the leather costs more. It's not that they're using like cows sent by God. They can charge what they want because they've created the desire for it. They're attracting a very certain customer.And in fact, by them going higher with their price points, they're actually excluding all the other women that are like lining up at Louis Vuitton and that can get like the $3,000 bags. Again, these numbers are insane. But I say that because in the end of the day, it's just leather and bag components. So why would someone spend that money? It's because of what it represents. So for you, while you're probably pricedcorrectly, you actually can create more desire. And this is the pricing psychology. If you know exactly who her ideal customer is, what she wants, what she desire is like who she, that's what I was kind of getting at this whole time. And then realizing like, if if you're under pricing then she's going to associate you with not good quality with not special yes so when you know who she is you can raise your price you could charge you know three hundred dollars a plate if you really wanted to if you like grew your your business you can charge whatever you want because it's irrelevant at that point you're making back your money but now it's like it's the positioning of yourself in the market.So I do think there's still a little bit more market research to be done here. As you're moving forward, it doesn't have to be done by tomorrow. But as you're moving forward to be like, okay, well, what are other people charging for this kind of quality and design and craftsmanship and uniqueness? Where would my ideal customer shop? How much is she paying it? Like $500,000 to have her house redesigned?Then, yeah, you know, she's going to spend a lot on a plate. So you might just want to start to associate yourself and understand where the higher priced products are coming from. There's a place called Garys and Beverly Hills ORG, which is where very wealthy people register for their weddings. So you can go there and be like, well, what are these plates costing for people?And then you can make a decision. Do you want to be up high? Do you want to be lower? Do you want to be more accessible? You get to choose that. Yeah.

Speaker 23076.68s - 3078.5s

No, I totally understand that philosophy.

Speaker 03078.86s - 3082.36s

But I didn't realize that I was falling into the lower.

Speaker 23083.48s - 3084.82s

I get the philosophy.

Speaker 03084.82s - 3085s

I get it. Yeah.. I get the philosophy.

Speaker 23086.04s - 3086.4s

Yeah.

Speaker 03092.94s - 3093.02s

When I see your stuff, it feels, it just, I want you to be different than cost plus world market, right?

Speaker 23098.46s - 3099.26s

Like, I want you to be, because I do have bowls that are irregular that are cost plus world market.

Speaker 03100.46s - 3100.6s

They don't look like yours.

Speaker 23101.02s - 3101.76s

They're shining. You're not as cool.

Speaker 03102.14s - 3124.98s

But it needs to be, they need to be knocking you off. Like, it needs to be like, this is the standard. And then, you know, so it just, it needs to be elevated in a level. So it's not your design, but it might be the pricing. But this is just from me talking me for like 15 minutes. So it doesn't mean that it's the exact thing to do, but I would like you to dig in a little bit more. It'll influence everything else where you

Speaker 13124.98s - 3138.42s

sell who you collaborate with, who you're attracting on Pinterest ORG. It's going to influence all of it that like nailing your niche, nailing your messaging, and then the pricing psychology is really important, and that's going to help all of your marketing.Okay.

Speaker 03138.54s - 3139.04s

All right.

Speaker 13139.28s - 3141.48s

So speaking of buying from you,

Speaker 03141.48s - 3145.74s

where can we buy from you and follow you on social and all the things?

Speaker 23145.9s - 3153.58s

So my website is suzanne Kumar.com and my Instagram is at Suzanne Kumar Ceramics ORG.

Speaker 03153.86s - 3158.4s

Amazing. We'll drop that all into the show notes. Thank you so much. We'll talk to you later.

Speaker 13161s - 3165.38s

I love when the solution to a problem is charge more.

Speaker 03166.14s - 3309.8s

Suzanne PERSON is selling a product that appeals to a high-end market, but from my perspective, she could be charging more, and her customer would be happy to pay that price. On top of that, the custom design work she's done for restaurant owners, while time-consuming could be a great source of revenue for her business as long as she's pricing it right.We constantly doubt ourselves in terms of how much we charge, but also in envisioning the next stages of our business. Suzanne PERSON finds it hard to imagine a world where she's not doing all of the work in her business, and I see this all the time. But that's the path every product-based business begins to take. If you want to grow big, you have to think big. I want to encourage you all to start thinking bigger in your business and see how freeing that can be. If this episode was inspirational, would you mind passing it along andsending it to another product-based business owner that you may know? And if you have the time, go ahead and pause this episode right now and leave a review for the product boss podcast. It really helps us be discovered by more product bosses around the world so we can continue to help them grow their businesses as well. All right, my friend, I'll see you in the next one. Thank you for being here and listening all the way through the Product Boss ORG podcast.If you love our show and it has helped you in any way in your business, would you mind doing two things for us? Subscribe to the show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review. Reviews help other product entrepreneurs know that this is the place to be that grow their businesses and realize that they're not alone. And we know that you all know that a five star and honest review helps you sell more products to more people. So you know that your reviewshelp us reach more listeners around the world. Remember, what we give is what we receive and we are all about helping each other in the product boss community. We are all in this together. We would be so appreciative of youif you could take the time right now to subscribe, leave a review, and even share this episode on social or someone you know so we can impact more lives. And remember, subscribing means that you will get notified each time we release a new episode so you never miss a thing. You have helped us grow and climb into the top 10 of all marketing podcasts and together we can keep climbing. Thank you, friends. And remember, there is room at the top for all of us.