Microdosing | Tapping Into Mother Nature to Help Shape the Way You Think | Interview with Paul Austin

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Hello, Les Raymond here with the Mindful Movement ORG.

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Thank you for joining me today for another episode. I'm grateful to have Paul Austin PERSON join me. Paul, thanks for coming on to the podcast today, man.

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Hey, Liz PERSON. It's great to be here and I'm excited to get into microdosing and psychedelics and anything else under the sun that you want to dive into.

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Yeah, so you wrote a book on the topic, and it's interesting. I just alluded to this before I hit record, but I've had a lot of benefits from microdosing over the last several years. And then I've gotten away from it, and I don't really know why. And then recently I've been having some issues, like, between my left ear and my right ear around some topics in my life. And I've been thinking about it. Like, man, you know that this has helped you.Like, you know, dive back in. And I've been reluctant for whatever reason. And then you got your team, like, reached out and said, let's have a conversation. And I took that as a sign. So I was excited to get maybe some fresh education and learn about what the industry is doing. And it seems like you've been a real conduit out in the world to spread the potential benefits of these,you know, fascinating molecules. So, um, and hopefully we can re-inspire you, you know, to,

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to kick back off. And this time you have a little bit more context as to, to what's actually going on, because in some ways, a lot of it is still mysterious. but in other ways we know more than we've ever known before about psychedelics and about microdosing and what it's doing and why it works. And it's pretty fascinating. You know, it has a lot to do with the brain, a lot to do with neuroplasticity, has a lot to do with even inflammation and reducing chronic inflammation.So I'm happy to like, yeah, it'll be fun to talk about what we know from the research and also what we're still exploring and attempting to understand about the way that microdosing works in particular.

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Oh, yeah, I definitely want to get into that. Can we back up a little bit? Just tell me how you got into it.

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Yeah, so I began microdosing in 2015. So about nine years ago, I was living in Budapest GPE at the time and living as a digital nomad. And two friends came to visit. And we took a pretty high dose of LSD, not a microdose and went out to a park for the day. dose of LSD, not a microdose and went out to a park for the day. And at that point in time, this was July 2015. So at that point in time, you had folks like Joe Rogan and Tim Ferriss PERSON, who were just starting to publish podcasts with psychedelic researchers and medical doctors and other people in the profession. There was some research that had started to come out of places like Johns Hopkins ORG,but also NYU, Imperial College, a few other academic institutions. And at that point in time, cannabis was becoming quickly destigmatized and legally available. And so while we were on this high-dose LSD trip, we were just as entrepreneurs talking about, you know, where might psychedelics go from here? Why might microdosing be a great bridge to cultural accessibility?And what's a way to frame or contextualize what's happening in psychedelics for a broader audience. And so from that experience, you know, I started third wave WORK_OF_ART as an educational platform to educate people about the safe and intentional use of psychedelics. And I was really inspired by my own experiences. I had been doing psychedelics since I was 19. I found them in my sophomore year of college. Again, very insightful, illuminating,very important in terms of helping me to choose the path

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that I wanted to go on professionally but also personally.

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And so when I had an opportunity to, you know, at that point in time in 2015, I was running my first business. It was a teaching English platform. I taught English in Turkey before, before moving to Budapest GPE. And so I was just like, man, if I could choose a thing to dedicate my time, energy, and effort to psychedelics and microdancing in particular feels like a tool that would really move the needle for a lot of people. And so I just started publishing content in 2015, started a podcast in 2016, started a retreat center in 2018, started training coaches and clinicians, doctors,practitioners in 2021, and then also developed my own microdosing formulation about a year ago. So I've just sort of really been keen on what can psychedelics do, what can microdosing do to help people not only to heal trauma. That's a lot of what we hear about when it comes to psychedelics, healing PTSD, depression, addiction, you know, these various clinical indications, but more interestingly, how can psychedelics help us to elevate consciousness? How can they help us to be more creative? How can they help us to become better communicators or become better leaders?I've always been interested in that overlap. What role might microdosing play in helping us to lead better, to listen better, and to love deeper. That's the way that I think about it.

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Oh, that's great. You said you created your own formulation. What does that mean? Is that like

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the protocol or the actual mixture of compounds? So, you know, the two most common psychedelics that folks work with in a microdocene protocol are psilocybin mushrooms and LSD. And the vast majority of people work with psilocybin mushrooms because they are much more accessible and even legal in certain states compared to LSD. And people who are pretty deep into this space will look at combining certain herbs or supplementswith the microdose to make it more about focus or to make it more about healing or to make it more about whatever experience it is that someone wants. So I created a formulation with lines main, cordyceps, Bacopa, which is a neutropic, Long Jack, which is also called Tangat Ali, which is a Chinese NORP herb, Sheila Jit, which is sort of this volcanic resin,and then vitamin D3. And the intention with that microdosing formulation, so it is the formulation, not so much the protocol, but the formulation, the intention with that is to create a stack that helps people to focus and helps people with becoming motivated and helps people to refine their attention. And this microdosing stack with Lyons main corticeps, Bacopa Longjack PRODUCT really helps to do that. There are friends of mine or there's other formulations that may combine it with what we call more feminine herbs,like a rashi or a cacao or a kana herbs that really open up the heart. I've always been much more interested in the cognitive performance.

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So even before this podcast today, I took a microdose of LSD.

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You know, I took about 12.5 micrograms of LSD and a gummy. And I, micro doses of LSD are my preferred. They are my favorite. But I don't always want, you know, LSD can be quite stimulating. So sometimes I prefer to work with mushrooms. And if I work with mushrooms, I utilize the stack that I just mentioned.Okay.

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And what is it about the microdose? It's like so intriguing to you. Is it because like you get these benefits, but you could still like carry on life? Yeah.

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So the individual.

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You not have to clear the schedule. Right.

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So there's both the individual aspect of why is it that I like to microdose personally. What does it do for me personally? And then there's the the more philosophical or larger kind of conversation, which is why is microdosing a great tool to educate the public about? So I'll start with the first one on an individual basis. When I was 1920, I did high doses of LSD, maybe 15 or 20 times in those early years. And what I would notice is for two or three weeks after that high dose experience, I was more motivated, I was more present, I made better decisions about the food that I ate, I meditated more often, I was more connected in relationships.And then inevitably after, you know, a certain period of time had passed, a lot of these benefits would start to dissipate. And this was early on. I wasn't working in psychedelics, quote-unquote, professionally. I was just basically experimenting with acid on certain weekends with friends. Several years later, when I started to dive into the actual research, I came to understand that after a high dose of a psychedelic, something happens, high dose of a psychedelic, something happens, something opens up, which is called a critical learning period, a critical learning period. And so for the two or three weeks DATE after a highdose psychedelic experience, neuroplasticity has been opened up within the brain. And what this means is that it's much easier to change our behavior. It's much easier to stop doing things that are harmful for us. It's much easier to start practices that are actually beneficial for our well-being. And so when I heard about microdosing, the intuition was, I wonder if I microdose if I could elongate that critical learning period. If all of a sudden, instead of just having two or three weeks to, you know,weave in a new habit or a new behavior, all of a sudden I have 45 days or I have 60 days, right? And so I started to look at microdosing as a way to extend the period of time in which I had to commit to a new practice, habit, or activity that would be beneficial. So that's sort of the overarching context on an individual basis. Now, when I started microdosing, I had two core intentions. So there were two core outcomes, goals, processes that I was looking to, that was looking for support with. One was to help withsocial anxiety that from a very young age, like from the age of five or six DATE, I was always very shy. And of course, as I grew up and matured, I had to learn how to navigate social situations with more and more dexterity and capacity. And still at the age of 24, I'd say it was pretty dependent on alcohol as a drug to help get over, work through social anxiety. And what I quickly realized after I started to dive into, you know, researching alcohol and psychedelics and these other drugs is that alcohol is much more toxic, obviously, for the liver and the body. And there's the hangover fact. And so I thought, what if I couldmicrodose to help with social anxiety? So instead of drinking a bunch of booze, I'll just take acid. I won't be hung over. I'll actually feel better. It's helpful for the body. I mean, it's anti-inflammatory. There are a lot of physiological benefits. So I started to microdose on, you know, a Friday or Saturday as part of going out. And I noticed that it helped me just to connect more, to be more open, to not just be caught up in my head so much. So that was one intention that I had.The second intention that I had was I was 24, 25 at the time that I started to microdose. This is about nine years ago. And I was really keen to become a quote unquote successful entrepreneur. And at that point in time, I was pretty deep into personal development. And what I learned is, you know, microdocosing can really help with something called flow, a flow state.And a flow state is that sense of being in the zone, that sense of you can get a lot done, that sense of being challenged enough, but not too challenged. And I thought microdose might be a great tool to initiate flow states on demand. And so I started a microdose to help with initiate flow states on demand. And so I started a microdose to help with those flow states so I could be more productive, so I could be more creative, so I could get more work done. At that time, I was building my first business, which was teaching English LANGUAGE online.And so those were then the two core intentions, is reducing social anxiety and becoming more productive, entering more flow states with an understanding that still my overall life, I was just generally interested in personal development. So again, coming back to that critical learning period, if I could keep, if I could keep that critical learning period open for longer, then I could be more intentional about weaving in patterns of behavior that would help me to sleep better, that would help me to be more present, that would help me to have more energy,all these sorts of things that we think of when it comes to optimal well-being. Okay.

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If somebody came to you and said, Paul PERSON, I'm interested. You've piqued my interest and I want to try to take something.

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And let's say you decide on the molecule out of the handful of common options or whatever.

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And they said, what should I expect to feel? How do you describe to someone that's intrigued what they would expect that day one when it kicks in?

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It's a great question. So I'll provide a little bit more context first because that'll be helpful for the listener. So when we think of a microdosing protocol, we're not just looking at it as, I'm going to take a cap of a mushroomon a random day and see what happens, right? That's just taking a little bit of mushrooms to see what happens. A micro PERSON That's just taking a little bit of mushrooms to see what happens. A microdosing protocol is more about, I'm going to microdose two or three times a week for a period of, I usually tell folks, a minimum of 30 days,but better to go 45, if not 60 days. And you're really looking at that trajectory of change over a 30 to 45 to 60 day DATE time period. And so when folks come to me and they say, I'm in a microdose, what should I expect to feel on this day? Typically, I say not much. You might notice that you feel a little bit more present, less reactive.You might have more energy. You might be in a slightly better mood. There's just less internal chit-chat. Some people sleep better as well. But really I'm saying look at what changes from day one to day 30 or day one to day 60. The parallel that I often draw is like with mindfulness meditation.For anyone who has started or experimented with meditation, when we start with meditation, we don't just sit in the cushion for 15 or 20 minutes on day one and expect to experience all these benefits, right? Those of us who have meditated consistently, we know that a lot of the benefits of meditation happen after a cumulative period of time. That if you meditate every day for 30 days or you meditate every day for 60 days,you know, scientific research shows that more gray matter is developed in the brain. There's greater cortical plasticity, meaning the brain is more malleable. We can learn quicker.

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Is that what gray matter, sorry to cut you off, is that what gray matter is referring to, the area where that happens?

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Yeah, yeah, cortical plasticity. So microdosing is a very, very similar frame. We're not just looking at day one to day two what happens. We're really looking at if you microdose two or three times a week for a month to two months, what changes over that period of time. And so what I tell folks is have a core intention. For folks who don't meditate, oftentimes that I say is commit to a meditation practice on a day-to-day basis because what I find is that meditation is one of the greatest practices that we can have for overall health and well-being. But someone might, you know, like I had when I initially started my microdosing, I really wanted to work through social anxiety that I was having.So that was really one of the core intentions when I started my microdosing protocol. I wanted to work on a creative project. So someone else might say, I want to finish a book. I want to write a book in 90 days and I want to microdose three times a week to help write that book. Other folks might have an intention of maybe they've been on Prozac orZoloft or Lexapro or another psychiatric medication, Ritalin PRODUCT, Adderall, Vivance for a long time. Their intention might be, I really want to reduce the amount of medication that I'm taking, or I want to eliminate the medication that I'm taking in Microdose PRODUCT instead. So that might be an intention or goal that they're looking at over that 30 to 60 to 90 day DATE period. The day of, just to come back and really root in your question, because this is also a common point of clarification for people who are microdosing,should I feel anything? Should I not feel anything? The definition that I think is most helpful is looking at microdosing as something that is sub-intoxicating, meaning it's a dose amount that you take where you don't feel intoxicated. You can still navigate your everyday life. You can drive a car. You can go for a walk. You can potentially work at your desk. You can go to a dinner. You can have normal relationships. And people notice, again, that they just feel less reactive, more present, a little more connected,better mood, more energy. These are the most common day-to-day benefits that people will notice while microdosing. And what's key in this process, and this is why we even, for a third wave, I lead a six-week group coaching container. So folks are listening to this and I'm like, I really want to microdose, but I don't want to do it alone or I want professional support.They could join this coaching container that we have. And what I tell folks is, start low and go slow. You can always take more. You can't necessarily take less. And part of the practice of microdosing is calibration. So how do you calibrate yourdose appropriately for what it is that you need? Because some folks, you know, like my microdose with LSD is 12.5 micrograms, your microdose with LSD could be 10 or it could be five or it could be 15 or it could be 25 even, right? There's a range that's appropriate depending on the individual's background. What we tend to notice is if someone is currently on SSRIs or they have a history of SSRIUs, they will typically need more to really benefit from their microdosing protocol.to really benefit from their microdosing protocol. If someone is more sensitive, if they don't take a lot of drugs, like very little caffeine, alcohol, cannabis, and they're interested in microdosing, maybe they're already very open. They may need less.So what I tell folks is start low and go slow. It usually takes one to two weeks to find your appropriate dose level, calibrating the dose level, and then stick to that for two or three times a week for ideally 30 days to 45 days to 60 days DATE.

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And then what? Just take a bunch of time off to let like the receptors recalibrate?

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So what's great about microdosing, and I'm sure you've experienced this as well, is it's not physiologically addictive. So it's not like an SSRI or an ADHD medication where you start taking it consistently. And if you stop, you have withdrawals. It's really nasty. This is true for almost all psychiatric medications is there's really intense physiological withdrawals. What's great about psychedelics is they are not physically, physiologically addictive whatsoever. So I couldmicrodose, like my initial protocol many years ago. I took LSD twice a week for six months. I overdid it a little bit because I was experimenting and trying to figure it out. I stopped. I had no withdrawals whatsoever. I took a full six weeks off, no issues, no problems. And then I was traveling at the time. So when I landed in my new home, I started to microdose again. So typically what I tell folks is commit to a minimum of a month. Six weeks might be an even better time frame. So you could spend the first couple weeksof weeks, calibrating that dose level effectively, and then take at least two weeks off. So a minimum of two weeks off, could be longer. Could be three. Could be four. It could be six weeks. But you want to reset. You want to evaluate how is my baseline changed? How is my energy changed?How is my mood changed? How have my relationships changed? What outcomes have I experienced? Am I more present? Am I less reactive? Do I feel healthier?Am I sleeping better? Right? Just getting a sense of how have things changed, shifted, improved over the last six to eight weeks, reset, and then make an intentional choice if you want to keep microdosing, keep microdosing. A lot of folks who maybe have been unnecessized or have a, you know, are more melancholic or have a preponderance for depression, they really look at microdosing as something they may do twice a week for months because it's a prophylactic against the depression. But a lot of folks tend to cycle off.They'll do it for four to six weeks. They'll take a couple weeks off and then they'll reengage. That does help to reset tolerance to some degree. But I would say the larger intention is just to evaluate efficacy, get a sense of how well it worked, and then take those two weeks off to plan, shift, change. What might you do differently?Might there be a new intention, a new approach that you take and then commit to that practice as well? Gotcha.

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Yeah, I found myself naturally just letting it pass behind me after a few months. It just was like very organically. Just like, I think that's good. And then you just don't go for it. Like I was doing it every fourth day. And I just wouldn't go for it. Like, yeah, I don't feel the urge. And then, you know, a few months would go by and then I have the urge. You mentioned something a couple times, this feel more connected. And I think that's a common thing that I've heard, and I'm sure others have heard people talk about after experiencing like psychedelics, you know, whatever they're doing to the mind or body or both. And what do you think is going on there?Like what do you think that connected feeling is pointing at or like what is creating that?

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Yeah, partly it's the monkey mind the chat chit-chatter that we always have going on that just blows down it gets quieter and so oftentimes our our mind our internal chit-chatter can be a massive distraction and a massive barrier between us and reality. And so there's a way in which when we take a microdose, or especially when we do a high dose of a psychedelic, that totally drops away and all of a sudden we're actually present in reality as it's unfolding.And that helps us to feel a sense of connection to what is emerging and what is going on. So I think that's one way to think about it. Now, the next question would be, well, why does that happen? Right. Like, why is it that our chit chatter goes down? Why is it that our monkey mind calms down? And I'll explain it in a couple different ways. They've done some really interesting research on brain scans, where they've scanned the brains of people on a very high dose of mushrooms,and they scan the brains of long-term meditators who have been meditating, I think, a minimum of three hours a day for 30 to 40 years. And what they found is that those brains looked almost identical, that someone who was on a high dose of psilocybin mushrooms had a very similar brain structure and network as someone who had been a long-term meditator for many, many decades, which is interesting because as a lot of us know who have meditated or have heard about, because we've studied meditation a little bit, it's like when wemeditate consistently, that brain chatter tends to go down, right? It's just less rumination because we become more aware of everything that's going on. And so we're intentional then about coming back to the breath, about being present in the moment. Now, what's actually happening in the brain? We have two hemispheres, simple, right, right, right and left. We take a high dose of a psychedelic, but also when we take a microdose, the communication between both hemispheres of the brain really starts to activate.And so most of us in our everyday life, the reason that chit-chatter is so strong and keeping us disconnected from reality around us is because our linear analytical thinking, doing side of our brain is on overdrive because it's what most school requires. It's what most professions require. It's what we need to handle logistics on an everyday basis. And the more artistic, creative, present aspect of our brain is not as activated. And so when we take a psychedelic, when we microdose, it all of a sudden starts to activate,that more creative, nonlinear, open side of the brain, which helps to bring a sense of balance. And when we feel balanced, then it becomes much easier to engage with the world around us. So I think specific to microdosing, that's a lot of what's happening from a mechanistic perspective. And then a lot of folks will report, especially at high doses, like this weekend, I'm in Malibu, and I took a single dose of LSD, not a microdose, like a full dose of LSD, and I went hiking for like four hours. And what I found in that experience is I just felt really connected to the trees and the wind and the nature and everythingaround us. So at those higher doses of psychedelics, that barrier between what am I and what is around me all of a sudden starts to dissipate. And so what that means is at that high dose of a psychedelic, all of a sudden we feel really deeply connected with everything around us because our normal ego structure has been taken offline. And that allows for, again, allows for the rumination to calm down. It allows for the new patterns of, you know, behavior to come online, all these sorts of things. So a lot of it is, I would say,it comes back to like minimizing rumination and getting that ruminative brain to just chill the

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fuck out for a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, it's that minimizing rumination. I could that, I could resonate with that. I remember,

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I have experience with the mushrooms doing microdosing and which I like, but I found to be not the best fit for me if I wanted to be productive. Like, I don't know if I could get the dose right as easily. And sometimes I would just feel a little, like, physically silly inside.

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And it was good. Like, it was never negative. But I just wanted to, like, get on the floor and roll around or get on a foam roller or go outside and sit and just connect with nature.

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Like I didn't want to go to work. This is our mushrooms, correct? Solzibbon. Yeah. But I found that I would

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hit my stride really well, microdosing with San Pedro GPE, which has mescaline. And a friend of mine Pedro, which has mescaline.

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And a friend of mine knew I was curious. And it was at a time where I was really under a lot of stress and a lot of it was emotional. And a lot of it was like family related stress, which I don't do well with.

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Like I didn't have a good toolkit to manage that type of stress. But you mention ruminating like I would get in these thought cycles where you have like a negative like this tiny thought that leads to a negative thought which leads to a more negative thought and you were like in this cycle and every day I would go through the same thought cycles where like this thought would lead to this one which leads to this one one. They were all shitty thoughts. They were all unproductive. They were all negative. They were all, you know, there was a lot of, um, it would leave me down past of things that I was ashamed about or felt guilty about, whatever. And all generally based on past. And some of it was related to,what does this mean for the future and um and what i remember is that that it was like i would be able to see the thought cycle arising like emerging very very early before it even formed as like a real thought. I was like, oh, it was like my subconscious could recognize that this cycle, the structure of this cycle was about, like the wave was about to rise. And I'd be like, oh, I don't need that.And I could just like with ease, just bypass, like go this way. And over time, and you mentioned, you know, 30 days, 45, 60, there is this accumulation of, I dodged all these bullets in a way, which every time, you know, the bullet would hit me, it would, like, bring me down, and then there'd be a physical response because obviously there's no, you know, separation between our thoughts and emotions and our physicalmanifestation. So it was like all the physical cells in my body would be affected by those negative thoughts. And I was dodging that negative effect. And it gave me a space to work in where I could create new, more positive things to think about. And it was like very subtle, but extremely useful, extremely. And it's very interesting. And also, even on the St. Pedro FAC, I also felt connected.I also felt like I wanted to be out in nature.

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But I felt way more productive. Like, not only more productive than on mushrooms,

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but way more productive than my baseline productivity. Like I could, the way I describe it, you know, it's a different energy. And you mentioned like feminine energy before. And I don't really understand all that, but the energy of the, the mushroom was like Earth LOC was, wanted to envelop me a little bit. And the energy of the, the mushroom was like, the mushroom was like Earth was, wanted to envelop me a little bit. And the energy of the San Pedro LOC was like, somebody served me a quarter teaspoon QUANTITY of the sun.And it was like glowing inside me,

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this like real subtle glow where I just had this limitless energy, whatever task that was in front of me, like,

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I was able to just express myself at its best through the accomplishment of that task. And there was never like, I don't want to do this now or, oh, there was, like, nothing was a chore. Everything was

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like, I was motivated to do the next thing whatever was on my calendar and you know I could drive probably at a heightened sense of performance I could exercise at a heightened sense of performance which is interesting like I would literally get another rep or two out of each set, which I don't really understand the physiology of where that energy comes from.

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And a cleanliness to my movement where, I mean, sometimes, you know,

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there's days where you're working out and you're just more in tune with the inner workings of the body within a movement. And that would all be like in full effect during those days. It wasn't like a happen chance where some days you have these really good workouts and some days they're just another practice. It was like every day that I was on that,

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all my workouts were like that. Right. And I wonder, is there any research on that, like the energetic component? Because I understand energy from like a bio energetic stance. Like you have a cell and we make ATP out of glucose or fatty acid. But this feels like it kind of violates that or supersedes it in some way. And it's like the plant molecule is just offering you another rep if you want it. You know, would you like to do another one? You can. The last one didn't fatigue you. Right. Any research on where that comes from?

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Yeah, let me, there's a lot there. So I want to, I want to share a couple reflections on what you shared.

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And then I'll get into some of the specifics about because also as part of your question, it's like what's the nuance between

Speaker 12190.12s - 2196.46s

psilocybin mescaline, which is in San Pedro GPE, but also LSD. Why do they impact us in different

Speaker 22196.46s - 2203.38s

ways? And the first thing I want to comment on is this sense of thoughts coming up. It's almost like

Speaker 12203.38s - 2531.5s

when we have, when we work with a microdose, we can, as you mentioned, dodge the bullet or what I even say is you can uproot the weed. So thinking of the thought as a weed, right? And if the seed gets planted of that bad thought, it just keeps growing and growing and growing. Well, if we're aware that came in and we can just say, no, I'm not going to like ruminate on that. That's not an option.All of a sudden, it has no power, it has no process, it has no energy. And that can be very powerful when combined with a meditation practice or breath work or any other contemplated practice. In terms of the energy aspects of microdose, youose. I first want to talk about, because I mentioned masculine, feminine before, and as you said, you're like, I kind of get that, but not really.So let's talk about it from a neurotransmitter perspective. You probably know enough. Most of your listeners know enough about the basics of neurotransmitters. We have dopamine. We have, you know, noraphenephrine, we have oxytocin. We have serotonin.We have, there's several others as well. The most common ones that are specific to psychedelics are dopamine, serotonin, and oxytocin. There's also some norapinephrine, but not a tonin. The most common one is serotonin. So the classic psychedelic, solosybin, LSD, and mesoclealin are what we call 5HT2A agonists.5HT2A agonists. This is one of 14 serotonin receptors in the brain. When that is activated, it has a massive impact on neuroplasticity and the development of the prefrontal cortex, which is related to decision making, executive functioning, etc., etc. However, even though these are all 5H2A agonists, executive functioning, etc., etc. However, even thoughthese are all 5H2A agonists, LSD and mescaline are much more dopaminergenic. There's a lot more dopamine with LSD and mescaline compared to psilocybin. Silicin is much more about serotonin. And so this is reflected in your own experience. When you migrate it with psilocybin, you just want to be in your body. You want to kind of roll around. You want to get on the foam roller.You feel very, there's a somatic experiencing happening where you don't necessarily want to work, but things just feel kind of physical. And you want to express physically. What I often do with psilocybin is I might combine it with a coaching or a therapeutic container as well or relational stuff. If I need to have difficult conversations that require me to be very emotionally open andpresent, I will often microdose or take a low dose of psilocybin before that. Most of my life, I'm just more interested in performance and exercising and focus and work and all these sorts of things. And LSD and mescaline are better for that because of their impact on dopamine. And it's a similar distinction between Adderall, Ritalin, and Vivance PRODUCT, which are for ADHD and the SSRIs, Prozac, Lexa, Pro, and Zoloft PRODUCT, right?ADHD requires us to take, many people to take medication that helps us to focus our energy on a specific thing. LSD and mescaline has a similar impact. So those who have ADD or ADHD or have been on those medications often find a lot of benefit from LSD or mescaline, whereas those on SSRIs will often find a lot of benefit from serotonin. So that's that's one more sort of context that's helpful to go into here. Okay, sort of finally getting into your question, there's a couple of things that are going on or a couple reasons why when we microdose at San Pedro GPE or when we microdose with LSDor some folks, even when they microdose with psilocybin, they have more energy, they can do extra wraps, they're not as fatigued. I think the core reason is psychosomatic, meaning we're just not as our brain is not as attached to the pain or the fatigue of what's going on. So they've actually done research on microd doses of LSD and found that they're just as effective as opioids for chronic painmanagement, right? So low doses of LSD are just as effective as opioids for chronic pain management because they help to distract our brain away from the pain. They help us to shift our perspective in a way that doesn't allow us to continue to ruminate and focus on the pain that's happening. A very similar process is happening when you're working out, right? When you feeling a little fatigue, normally just in everyday waking consciousness, you feel a little fatigue. You're like,okay, I'd rather stop. When you take a microdose of mescaline or LSD, it just helps you to go beyond that initial kind of mind thing. It's similar with cold plunging if you've done cold plunging or anyone here has done cold plunging, right? If you cold plunge, and it's the first time you've ever done it, your brain is immediately going to scream at you to get the fuck out of that cold water because I have no idea why you've just subjected this to me and I could potentially die. Whereas we know in reality, if you spend three minutes in a cold plunge,it's actually going to be very beneficial. And so you just have to breathe through it and basically talk yourself through that full experience. When you take a microdose, you don't even have to talk yourself through it. You're not as attached to the pain that's occurring. And so that is really the overall process that's occurring. It's not so much it's having an impact on mitochondria, having an impact in ATP.It probably is to some degree, but the much larger thing that's happening is the brain is shifting in such a way where it's

Speaker 22531.5s - 2550.58s

just not as attached to the pain that's coming through. That's interesting. So you create a lot of, I guess, opportunities for people to learn more. It's kind of like an educational platform on some level. The third wave, what is that word? What are those words?

Speaker 12550.58s - 2685.36s

I thought you'd never ask, Liz PERSON. I thought you never asked. I'm so glad you. So my background is history, right? I'm not a medical doctor. I'm not a clinical therapist.I am not a lawyer. I'm not, you know, I don't have a profession. I have an undergrad degree in business management and history. And I love history and I study history and think history informs a lot of how we live and how we choose to live and where we're going. And so when I was looking at the context of what was happening in psychedelics in 2015 in Budapest GPE when I was with those couple friends,we were going to third wave coffee places. So third wave coffee is like Stump Town, Intelligencia ORG, other kind of artisanal. There's a ton in Baltimore and D.C. or New York GPE or any other major city, it's like a place where you go in and the beans are single origin fromGuatemala GPE and the barista knows the precise temperature that they should be at and they have a cute little swan that they put on top or a little flour that they put on top of your cappuccino. That's third wave of coffee. First wave of coffee was Folgers. Second wave of coffee was Peets ORG and then Starbucks. And the third wave of coffee is this beautiful artisanal approach to working with coffee. So we were going to third wave coffee houses in Budapest GPE. We were taking acid.And all of a sudden, what emerged is this third wave of psychedelics. And reflected on it, and I'm like, this could be a creative idea that actually works. Because the first wave was the ancient and indigenous use of psychedelic substances. We as a human species have been working with psychedelics for thousands, if not tens of thousands of years, both in an ancient context. And what I mean by ancient is from a civilizational perspective. So the ancient Greeks NORP worked with a psychedelic-like compound as partof their Elucinian mysteries. Plato, Aristotle PERSON, Marcus Aurelius PERSON all participated in these Elusinian NORP mysteries. In the ancient Vedic scriptures of ancient India GPE, they worked with something called Soma, which is believed to be psilocybin mushrooms. So as far back as 5,000 years, we have textthat says the ancient Vedics NORP were using psilocybin mushrooms as part of their spiritual practice.

Speaker 22685.96s - 2687.62s

Do we know what form?

Speaker 12687.74s - 2714.32s

The Greeks NORP were using? The Greeks, it was a beverage called Kukion PRODUCT. And Kukion is a potion that's made from Ergot. And Ergot is a fungus that grows on rye bread. And LSD is also made from Ergot. So there's actually a distinct and direct relationship between that fact, like LSD is reallythe Westerners psychedelic. And in some form, we've been using it for 3,500 years.

Speaker 22715.66s - 2721.14s

Kukion initially. And now, and it's more synthetic. Yeah. Okay. So sorry to cut you off there. So then the Vedics NORP were using it.

Speaker 12721.14s - 2741.46s

And then you have the indigenous use, right? Like ayahuasca in the Amazon for over a thousand years. Silocybin mushrooms in Mexico GPE I think archaeological evidence goes back 800 to a thousand years. You have theuse of peyote in Mexico GPE as far back as 15,000 years ago. So there's a really rich indigenous use.

Speaker 22742.08s - 2748.1s

So all that story and probably more represents first wave is what you're referring to.

Speaker 12748.22s - 2774.04s

That's the first wave of psychedelics. The second wave of psychedelics is on the counterculture, the 50s and 60s when LSD was invented and psychedelics came back on the scene. LSD was legal and available. Mushrooms were legal and available until they weren't. They were prohibited because they were associated with the counterculture and the Vietnam War protests and all these sorts of things. However, in the 50s,over a thousand clinical papers were published on the efficacy of psychedelics for alcoholism,

Speaker 22774.16s - 2781s

anxiety, depression, addiction, a range of conditions. Yeah, wasn't the LSD like given out to labs

Speaker 12781s - 2786.82s

to experiment with? Tons of free LSD was sent everywhere sent everywhere right Saskatchewan GPE was a big location

Speaker 22786.82s - 2792.1s

Stanford did a lot of LSD research in the 50s sending it to them where was that originating from from

Speaker 12792.1s - 2810.62s

Sandoz so Sandoz was a pharmaceutical company in Switzerland that Albert Hoffman PERSON worked for and Albert Hoffman was a Swiss NORP chemist who invented LSD and so they were just sending free LSD to everyone because they knew how transformative it could be for mental health conditions. And they just wanted to make it accessible.

Speaker 22811.2s - 2811.72s

Open source.

Speaker 12812.38s - 2813.14s

Open source.

Speaker 22813.38s - 2814.52s

So Stanford ORG got it.

Speaker 12815.18s - 2816.28s

Did a lot of research.

Speaker 22816.28s - 2820.84s

In fact, there's a really interesting relationship between the use of LSD at Stanford ORG in the

Speaker 12820.84s - 2826.26s

50s and the birth of the computer revolution, which is a whole other podcast that we don't have really time for.

Speaker 32826.96s - 2833.1s

But long story short, the idea then of the third wave of psychedelics is how do we take the best practices

Speaker 12833.1s - 2871.74s

of this first wave, ritual, tradition, lineage, a relationship and connection to nature, looking at psychedelics and plants as having an intelligence in and of themselves and take the best practices of the second wave of psychedelics, science, precision, ethics, safety,best practices. So how do we create a cultural context that utilizes ritual and tradition, but also ethics, safety, best practices, and the scientific method. The third wave is the middle path between those two. That's how I think about it.

Speaker 02871.78s - 2876.52s

And that we need both in order for it to be successful on a cultural level.

Speaker 22877.44s - 2879.26s

That sounds like a great idea, man.

Speaker 02880.34s - 2885.12s

And then so the sort of final touch point of that is microdosing.

Speaker 12885.12s - 2891.48s

I then look at as sort of the bridge to cultural accessibility, that we can have all the science and research we want.

Speaker 22892.44s - 2896.24s

We can even communicate the history, the fact that we've been using this for thousands of years.

Speaker 12896.36s - 2903.12s

But if people don't have a direct way to experience the tangible benefits of psychedelics, then they're going to be unlikely to do it.

Speaker 02903.12s - 2910.08s

And for most people, they're quite intimidated by, oh, yeah, I'm going to take five grams of mushrooms, you know, like the chances of

Speaker 12910.08s - 2919.5s

having a bad trip, the chances of having a really challenging experience, the chances of being overwhelmed is very high. So I've always looked at microdosing as this is a great stepping stone.

Speaker 22919.98s - 2922.9s

It's an on right. When you microdose, you don't need to jump in the deep end right away.

Speaker 12922.98s - 2981.38s

You can learn to swim in the shallow end before you go and jump in the deep end. The issue isn't LST necessarily. The issue is that we were just doing way too much LSD in the 50s and 60s, that the actual appropriate dosage for most folks is a microdose. And that if folks know how to do that in a safe way, in a responsible way, with great medicine, then a lot of people could benefit.And at this point in time, the biggest risk when it comes to microdosing is the fact that it's illegal. And we're also working to change this. I started a nonprofit called the Microdosing Collective ORG. And we just were in California about a month ago to talk to legislators there, but we're really looking at how do we develop a legal, regulated marketplace for microdoses of psilocybin, so any adult can purchase this and access this in a way that supports them.That also sounds like a great idea.

Speaker 22982.38s - 2984.22s

So nice work with that.

Speaker 02984.64s - 2996.4s

Thank you. So these have been used for a great idea. So nice work with that. Thank you. It's fine. So these have been used for a long time. They clearly have this very interesting interaction with us as a species. I don't know

Speaker 12996.4s - 3048.02s

if there's any other animals that use them. Do you know? Yeah. So monkeys have used mushrooms before a tiny bit. Iowasca, no. It would mostly be mushrooms, right? There is quite a bit of research that animals love to alter their consciousness, that this is sort of a, it's a biological imperative, that an altered state of consciousness can be beneficial for evolution.So a lot of like elephants will eat fermented grapes or, you know, animals in the wild sort of seek out, you know, ways to alter their consciousness. But there isn't a lot of research yet. One research trial that I know they want to do is MDMA for traumatized dogs that dogs have been rescued. If we could give them MDMA to treat their PTSD, that could be really helpful.

Speaker 23048.56s - 3051.6s

I mean like naturally, like does it naturally happen?

Speaker 13051.76s - 3074.48s

Like an elephant eating a fermented grape, they might be doing that for the bacteria for their that might be their probiotic. It might not even be for the trace amount of alcohol or whatever. There's there is some evidence though of animals altering their consciousness through uh drugs right like naturally being drawn to that it's not widespread but it does happen every now and then like they they have shown that for sure well clearly

Speaker 23074.48s - 3089.4s

uh it feels like when you take one that they're not here as a coincidence. Like this interaction, this relationship that humans have with them,

Speaker 03089.84s - 3097.92s

at least for those that have used them, it's like, it offers like big other questions.

Speaker 23098.44s - 3104.36s

Like if you, if somebody asks, I'll ask you, like, why do you think that they're here? Do you think there's a reason they're here?

Speaker 13105.5s - 3136.08s

Or do you think it's kind of happen chance that like it's just a compound and a plant that happens to act on a pathway in our biochemistry? There's a few ways to look at it, right? There is some research that shows evolutionarily. Why did mushrooms begin to create psilocybin as a defense mechanism essentially? So ants and insects would become so intoxicated and inebriated if they ate just a little bit that they couldn't continue.So there is sort of like an evolutionary reason for the psilocybin to be produced in mushrooms.

Speaker 23136.08s - 3142.16s

Why wouldn't it just be a direct poison? Like most mushrooms will just, if you eat them, you won't make it through the week.

Speaker 13142.26s - 3300.02s

Like you'll have liver failure to die. So if they just wanted to kill the animal, why wouldn't they make a compound that would just kill the animal? Why would they make them trip balls or whatever? That's a great question, right? I think we're still like unpacking that. And obviously that doesn't apply to something like ayahuasca, right? Ayahuasca is a tea. Iowaska is made from a leaf and a vine. And what the indigenous Amazonian NORP peoples will say is that they received a message from the plants to combine them because it would create this psychoactive potion that would then lead to these altered states of consciousness.Even the invention of LSD is a really interesting story where Albert Hoffman was looking, he was a, you know, this chemist, with Swiss NORP chemist, he was looking to invent a substance that would help with childbirth, right? And so he was doing a bunch of different formulations, and he created something called LSD 25. It was the 25th formulation utilizing ergot. And nothing happened with it. So he just put it on the shelf. Five years later, in 1943, he comes back to that because he got a premonition. He got a premonition that there was something more to discover with that particular one. He did a little bit of LSD.And next thing, you know, he's like, holy shit. This is a psychedelic and it can have these incredible properties. So a lot of it feels like instead of coincidence,I would almost use the word synchronicity like there's this synchronistic aspect of psychedelics where a lot of people would say the reason LSD showed up in1943 was to energetically balance the invention of the atomic bomb that we had the atomic bomb evented around that time and LSD and these did completely different things for humanity. One helped us to feel more connected and loving to the earth.One helped us to initiate massive destruction on a certain type of people. So it's, you know, and then the even farther out hypotheses like Terrence McKenna was a really known well-known philosopher in the 80s and 90s around psychedelics he said that mushrooms came on an asteroid that they are they're an extraterrestrial intelligence and that the psilocybin mushroom actually came from outer space and that we found them many many thousands of years ago and that you know our ancient ancestors ate these mushrooms on the savannas of Africa and that's why we found them many many thousands of years ago and that you know our ancient ancestors ate these mushrooms on the savannahs of Africa and that we found them many, many thousands of years ago and that, you know, our ancient ancestors ate these mushrooms on the savannas of Africa LOC and that's what helped us to develop our prefrontal cortex and our capacity for language and our capacity for religion and our capacity for civilization. He writes about this in a book called Food of the Gods WORK_OF_ART.

Speaker 23300.02s - 3307.24s

Like other light forms in the universe spreading kind of the seed of consciousness.

Speaker 13307.46s - 3310.18s

Of consciousness. That's his hypothesis, right?

Speaker 23310.34s - 3312.36s

That this came from an external life form.

Speaker 13312.52s - 3314.8s

That's the one I want to be true, I think.

Speaker 23314.92s - 3315.12s

Right.

Speaker 13316.22s - 3361.02s

So the truth is, like, we don't know. We have hypotheses. We've looked at things from various lenses and perspectives. And a lot of folks would say the reason that they are becoming so popular nowadays is because we're looking for wisdom and solutions to help us navigate the climate crisis. And psychedelics are one of those thingsthat help us feel deeply connected to nature in our natural environment. So could they help us to be more adamant about taking care of that environment? A lot of people, and again, a lot of people who take psychedelics do become hippies, whether that's, you know, external or internally. So it'd be interesting to see, and it's been interesting to observe just what's happened in the last, you know, five years as this has become way more popular.

Speaker 23362.38s - 3371.62s

Yeah, it has become way more popular. It's interesting. Like the stigma is definitely dissolving. Right.

Speaker 13372.06s - 3419.72s

Right. And it's why we're, you know, when I started third wave in 2015, the focus was desigmatization. Right. That's changed now because 61% of Americans NORP now support legal psychedelic assisted therapy. The number of, the number of Americans who have taken a psychedelic has quadruple since 2019. So four acts, the number of people took a psychedelic in 2023 compared to 2019,which is insane. And so now instead of just desimicitation, I think the biggest imperative is training great practitioners. So even through our platform, the psychedelic coaching institute, we're now training coaches, clinicians, doctors, and practitioners and how to work with psychedelics because we think what's really important is that now that a lotof people know about it, how can they have a great coach or therapist or guide to actually have a

Speaker 23419.72s - 3424.98s

safe and effective experience? So what does that look like? Is that when you get a psychedelic coach,

Speaker 13424.98s - 3478.38s

is that basically getting someone that's a traditional therapist, but they're just adding this layer on top to make it more effective? Sometimes. So sometimes that can be the case, right? If the intention is therapeutic, if the intention is to heal, you know, depression or addiction or PTSD, a lot of therapists are now adding psychedelics into their repertoire. What I focus more on is if someone's an executive coach and they have a CEO who comes to them and says, hey, I've heard about psychedelics. Can you help me to navigate this or do you know anythingabout it? We have a lot of health and wellness coaches, life coaches, a lot of doctors, like psychiatrists and other folks who, you know, they maybe have been in the medical profession, but they're really looking at longevity medicine. They're looking at NAD plus. They're looking at biohacking. They look at psychedelics. So you don't need to be a there. So anybody could

Speaker 23478.38s - 3484.7s

become a psychedelic coach. Anyone can become a psychedelic coach. Now, what's imperative and what we

Speaker 13484.7s - 3605.04s

emphasize is you need to have your own practice. So you should have worked with psychedelics yourself for a minimum of three years before you start professionally helping others. You need to go through a training. And most important, you need to have the humility to know who you can help and who you can't help. So if someone doesn't have a clinical background as a coach and they're looking to support someone who has PTSD might not be a great fit, you know, because that could be potentially harmful for the person who has PTSD. So they need to be able torefer that person with PTSD to a clinical therapist. Likewise, if you have an individual who's working with a therapist but really wants to explore how psychedelics can help them become a better leader or help them with creative and visionary states. It probably shouldn't work with a therapist. They should hire a coach, an executive coach to help support them in that process if they want to grow and develop their business or their professional life. So a lot of it comes back to what's the intention, as we've talked about earlier.And then based on that intention, how can I find a coach, practitioner, or guide who can help to support me in that practice? And what we emphasize in our training is we emphasize five things. Assessment. So how do you assess? Preparation. How do you prepare someone?The experience itself. And this is more for high dose work. So what's the appropriate medicine? Who's a great facilitator for that medicine? The integration period, which is that critical learning period that we talked about before. And then microdosing.How can microdosing be supportive? So assessment, preparation, experience, integration, and microdosing. Those are what we call the five key elements. And so anyone who's interested in deeper psychedelic work, you should always ensure that the coach, clinic, retreat, practitioner, whoever you're working with that they cover those five elements. They assess you, they help you prepare, they help you have a really great, safe, effective experience.They help you with integration and they support you with microdosing. Those are the

Speaker 23605.04s - 3610.4s

five key things to look at. Gotcha. Last question, if I have just a couple of minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 33611.84s - 3617.66s

So an obvious barrier, and you alluded to it earlier, is that like the legality, all the stuff. So there's a

Speaker 13617.66s - 3623.34s

couple states. I don't know. Colorado and Oregon. So there's two states now where mushrooms are

Speaker 33623.34s - 3625.22s

legal or decriminalize or?

Speaker 13625.38s - 3625.68s

Legal.

Speaker 23626.04s - 3626.56s

They're legal.

Speaker 13626.84s - 3628.5s

So you could just go to that state.

Speaker 23628.5s - 3634.58s

Now, are you allowed to go take from there to another state that it's not legal?

Speaker 13635.24s - 3637.08s

Are you allowed to possess them or?

Speaker 23637.78s - 3638.18s

No.

Speaker 13638.4s - 3644.42s

So you can go to Oregon GPE and you can sign up for an experience in Oregon, even if you don't live in the state of Oregon.

Speaker 23644.54s - 3658.18s

So you could fly into Portland and find an experience there. And in fact, on our website, the third wave.c.O. On our website, we have a directory of legal clinics, retreats, coaches and practitioners that you can work with.

Speaker 33658.38s - 3661.78s

So you can go to Oregon GPE and legally work with psilocybin.

Speaker 13661.86s - 3691.16s

You can go to Colorado GPE and legally work with psilocybin. On our website, we also have a grow kit that we send to basically every state. So people can grow their own mushrooms. What's great about being an American NORP is we have a lot of laws, obviously, to protect private property. So you can grow mushrooms in your own home. Technically, that is illegal, but the chances of anyone finding out are about zero. So a lot of people will just grow their own home. Technically, that is illegal, but the chances of anyone finding out are about zero.So a lot of people will just grow their own mushrooms. Does it, and it, does it come with the spores,

Speaker 23691.28s - 3695.54s

or is that to order the spores separately? We can't sell the spores directly with the grow kit,

Speaker 13695.54s - 3701.56s

because that would be illegal for us to do. People can't legally get the spores right now,

Speaker 23701.64s - 3705.72s

unless you're in those two states. No, you can legally acquire the spores as well. Oh, you can. Yeah, just through third way, we can't sell the spores right now, unless you're in those two states. No, you can legally acquire the spores as well.

Speaker 13705.96s - 3706.64s

Oh, you can.

Speaker 23707.06s - 3711.08s

Yeah, just through third way, we can't sell the spores directly with the grow kit.

Speaker 13711.08s - 3714.3s

We have to sell the grow kit separately, and then you can buy the spores separately,

Speaker 23714.3s - 3742.04s

but spores are completely legal to buy in every state except Georgia and Idaho GPE. Oh, I didn't know that. And then as far, like, so that seems like the barrier of entry is not too high. With LSD, I haven't touched that since I was in high school. Like, is that easy to get? You just have to know somebody, basically.

Speaker 13742.5s - 3766.26s

Yeah, that's more tricky. So typically what I tell folks, if you really are keen to try LSD, you need to meet other folks who are in the space. Go to a conference. We even have on Third Wave,we have a free community platform, community dot the thirdwave.com that folks can join and start to connect with other folks. So you really need to like step in a little bit.

Speaker 23766.26s - 3773.78s

However, I will say we have a sourcing guide that we make available. It's like a 40 to 50 page sourcing guide on third wave where it goes through.

Speaker 13774.22s - 3786.74s

There are certain analogs that are very similar to LSD that are legal in Canada GPE and that you can purchase for research. And then utilize it that way.

Speaker 23787.1s - 3810.28s

I remember there's a lot of loopholes. Gotcha. I remember learning about the San Pedro LOC and I had just been gifted some and it was like, oh, this is nice. And it took so little for me to get a therapeutic effect. It's like, oh, this is going to last me forever.But I remember learning that like you could go to a local plant shop and they probably have these cactuses for like 10 or 20 bucks.

Speaker 13810.48s - 3811.08s

Home Depot ORG.

Speaker 23811.44s - 3835.56s

Yeah, so it's like, it's like legal to get it, to buy it, to have it. It was just illegal, I think, to process it. So if you, if you cut it up and dried it, that was illegal to dry it in your kitchen. But you could have it growing in the windowsill legally, which is silly. I guess eventually a lot of that stuff will change for the better. It's just a matter of.

Speaker 13835.56s - 3871.88s

100%. That's the path that we're on. And again, like a great thing about being in the States GPE. And I would say most of the West LOC is we have very, there's a lot of things that protect private property and kind of what we choose to do privately. For now. And we're more libertarian than we've ever been before, I find.So like, as long as you're doing this in a safe and effective way, frankly, the DEA ORG and almost all law enforcement at this point in time is very focused on fentanyl. There are a lot of police officers who are actually using psychedelics themselves now to help heal and drink less alcohol. So it's just less of a concern than it's

Speaker 23871.88s - 3878.14s

ever been before. And it's still illegal most places. So you just have that awareness and going

Speaker 13878.14s - 3882.56s

into it. Gotcha. Well, Paul PERSON, I want to thank you for taking the time. If you could share with

Speaker 23882.56s - 3885.36s

audience one more time where they could go to find out more. The3Wave.com is the great. It taking the time. If you could share with the audience one more time, where they could go to find out more.

Speaker 13886.38s - 3923.72s

The3rdwave.com ORG is the great. It's the start. It's the main website. So start there. Thethirdwave ORG. We have a training program for coaches and practitioners of those who want to become coaches and practitioners.We have a free community platform. We have a podcast ourselves. If you want to go deeper into this topic and you're looking for for reputable resource. We've hosted it for about eight years. So the third wave, Paul Austin 3W PERSON is my Instagram and Twitter handle. Paul Austin 3W.Send me a note. Reach out. Let me know if you have any questions. Thanks for having me on the podcast. This was a ton of fun. Sure.

Speaker 23923.84s - 3929.48s

Thanks for coming. And for the listeners out there, always grateful for the listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode. And I hope everybody has a great day.