Lessons on Love, Politics and History: With Doris Kearns Goodwin

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Doris Curran's Good One WORK_OF_ART has written an amazing number of books about history, about power, the country. Her work for Lyndon Johnson PERSON, President Lyndon Johnson inspired her and her career as a presidential historian. Her first book was Lyndon Johnson PERSON and the American Dream. She followed that up with the Pulitzer Prize winning No Ordinary Time, Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt WORK_OF_ART, the Home Front in World War II. And she earned the Lincoln Prize for Team of Rivals WORK_OF_ART, in my view, the best book of the many that she's writtenand is in fact served as a big part of Stephen Spielberg's film, Lincoln PERSON. Well, she's done it again. The Pulitzer Prize-winning number one New York Times ORG best-selling author and deemed as America's Historianin-chief by New York Magazine ORG, has written a very personal story. It's entitled An Unfinished Love Story, A Personal History of the 1960s WORK_OF_ART,is a biography, a memoir, and history all rolled up in one, and she takes readers along a very emotional journey. She and her husband, Richard Dick Goodwin, embarked upon in the last years of his life. We get into his work, her work, and their love story. Coming up next on the Michael Steele PERSON podcast, right after this. Black representation in the media is critical. So critical. I can't imagine doing what I do today were it not for figures like April Ryan, Eugene Robinson PERSON, and the lategreat Gwen Eiffel. The next generation of influential black voices can be found on NPR ORG's new collection, Black Stories, Black Truths WORK_OF_ART. Black Stories, Black Truths is a celebration of blackness from NPR ORG. Each of NPR ORG's black voices are as distinct, varied, and nuanced as the Black experience itself. In the Black Stories Black Truths WORK_OF_ART collection, you will hear stories of joy, resilience, empowerment, and creating world-shifting things out of struggle. Every episode is a living account about what itmeans to be black today from a unique black perspective. From Bobby Smurda to The Wire, Michelle Obama PERSON to reparations. There's no limit to the range of black stories, black truths. Black prospectus haven't always been centered in the telling of America's story. Now they are the story. In NPR ORG's Black Stories, Black Truths, you'll find a collection of some of NPR ORG's best podcast episodes celebrating the Black experience. Hear episodes from across NPR ORG's podcast that center on black voices.It's NPR NPR NPR Today ORG. In hear a range of voices as varied, nuanced, and black as the country we reflect. Stories should never be about us without us. Listen now to Black Stories, Black Truths from NPR ORG, wherever you get your podcast. Hey everybody, welcome to the Michael Still PERSON podcast. So if you're a little bit of a romantic like myself, where you're from time to time kind of like, ooh, ah,and you sort of cry at sappy movies, and you get emotional when you hear things or you remember things. I think you'll appreciate this conversation because this is about a love story as much as it is about history and the roles that people play when history is unfolding around them, which is why I'm so excited to have the incomparable Doris Kern's Goodwin PERSON on the podcast. Doris PERSON, welcome.

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Oh, I'm so glad to be doing this with you. Absolutely.

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This is such a treat. I've listened to you talk about your late husband, Dick PERSON, and on a number of programs on my network at MSNBC. And I've read stories about the story, about your story. And the book is, I think, in so many ways appropriately, you know, titled, you know, an unfinished love story.Talk a little bit about the title of the book. Because I think in a lot of folks, you know, a lot of folks' mind, they may say, oh, an unfinished love story. What, you know, what's happening here? What's the deep? What's the backstory?But it's this, it's, it's not just the, the love story that really still exists with your husband, um, since his passing, but it's also the love story you, you both had with history. You're absolutely right. I mean,

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I think in some ways, the unfinished part of it in terms of my husband is that we had started working together on a project. When he turned 80, he decided it was time to examine these 300 boxes that had schlepped around with us for 42 years in storage and basements and all over the place. And he wouldn't look at them. I knew what was in them.I'd seen them a little bit. And I was so excited to go through them. But he said, no, because they were mostly a time capsule of the 60s. He had worked everywhere with John Kennedy PERSON, with Bobby Kennedy later, with LBJ, most importantly. So he's everywhere in the 60s, but the 60s ended so sadly with the assassinations of Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy PERSON and the riots

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and campus violence that it was like a dark curtain thrown on it. So only when he turned 80 did he say, okay, it's now or never, let's do it.

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So we started this project, which was really our last great adventure every weekend. We promised ourselves we'd go through them from beginning to end and suspend the knowledge of what was going to come later, the sadnesses of the losses and the deaths. And it meant that we relived the extraordinary part of the 1960s, the idealism, the kids, the belief that things could be changed, the leaders that we had. And it just gave him a sense, I think, of fulfillment and solace, but he died before we finished. So I had promised him I would finish.So that's part of what it is. But you're so right that it's also sort of the unfinished story of America GPE's promises to all of us from the time of the ideals of the country. And we're always reaching for them and we backslide and we go forward and we go backward. And that's a lot of what the 60s was about. It's what we were about, loving history and loving America GPE.

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So it's both to America GPE and to my late husband. It really is a phenomenal work. I mean, you've written some masterful pieces about enormously important figures in history. You're first coming out about Lyndon Johnson PERSON and the Johnson presidency, which really kind of put you on the map as one of the leading historians who sort of documented history real time in that sense. But this was different. This for you was a different kind of writing because you're not writing about Lyndon Johnsonor Bobby Kennedy PERSON or other big figures. You're writing about yourself and your husband and your journey through history and sort of opening up those boxes that you started the conversation with. How was that? How was that for you to sort of shift that gear and turn the cleeg light on yourself and your relationship with your husband?

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Well, the thing that was so different right from the start was I'm used to dealing in archives, in boxes, you know, with letters and diaries and journals and newspaper clippings of the guys, the presidents that I studied.

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And I got so close to them because it took me so long to write those books,

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twice as long about World War II and the Civil War as the wars to be fought, that I used to call them my guys, and I used to talk to them, and I would ask them questions, but they never answered, of course. And now this is my guy, and he's sitting right across the room, and we're going through a miniature archive that was really incredibly full for the 1960s. And I can ask him, was that what Jack Kennedy PERSON was really like?What did he mean when he do this? How did you feel when LBJ PERSON said this? So it was really wild.

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It was a wild adventure we had. Yeah, that's the fascinating part because, and I want to draw that out a little bit, because it's an important aspect of the book that I think people, and I would hope when they read it, appreciate, is that while Jack Kennedy PERSON's not in the room, you're not talking to Jack, you're not talking to Lyndon Johnson PERSON, but you're talking to an individual who was in the room with them and who could relay and convey back their sentiment,their thinking, their idea around a crisis or a moment, which kind of puts the reader in that space. But then you step back and go, well, that's my husband. I mean, you know, and so it's a real, it's got to be a real kind of interesting moment for you as well to relive that time with him. And that's kind of historian slash wife slash partner way.

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And what was so interesting was that we both had our loyalties as we went into this project. I mean, his was to the Kennedys PERSON. He was so close not only to Jack Kennedy, but to Jackie and to Bobby PERSON. He was with Bobby PERSON when he died. It was really his closest friend. I felt really close to Lyndon Johnson PERSON because my experience of working for him in the White Houseand accompanying him to his ranch to help him on his memoirs was really what made me a presidential

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historian. So I was always arguing all these years. He was the one who got everything done.

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JFK just inspired people maybe, but it was Johnson PERSON who got the domestic programs through. He would then argue, yes, but look, the Vietnam War EVENT might have taken a different direction. And it was a serious argument. But as we went through the boxes, I could see by reliving his experience with JFK PERSON, for example, what a candidate he was, how he grew, he learned, he wasn't a polished speaker at the beginning. He spoke so fast. They said that he looked like a student who couldn't wait to get back to his chair after giving a report.Then he was so smart, he would ask the reporters, so where did I lose them? Where was I good? When did it work? When did it work? And that was a quality that he had, you know, of growing by learning and asking questions and curiosity.And I began to respect that more. And obviously saw him with the inspiration that created the Peace Corps, saw him with his inaugural address, saw him that first day. When Dick PERSON was in office, one of my favorite stories is when Dick PERSON was at the inaugural parade, of course, everybody's there. They're all freezing because it's so cold and JFK PERSON doesn't have a coat on. So they can't wear a coat either, right?

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And right after he goes in to inspect his digs in the West Wing and who's in there,

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but JFK inspecting his digs in the Oval Office. And he says to Dick PERSON, did you see the Coast Guard contingent? And Dick could not remember one contingent of another in that parade. He just wanted it to be over. And he didn't say anything. And then JFK PERSON said there wasn't a black face among them. I want you to do

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something about it. So I could recreate in my mind his emotions. He was so excited. It was his first directive as a White House aide. He runs upstairs. He calls the Secretary of the Treasury because

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the Coast Guard ORG was in that, and they integrate the Coast Guard ORG. So there's that feeling of, and obviously so much more important things happened, and that was only a symbolic act in some ways. But that person was a great person, Merrill Smith PERSON. He got a bronze star.I interviewed his widow and was able to find out about him as a person. So that became part of this whole story, too. I would get the rest of the story that I didn't know at the time.

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Right. But that's, I mean, just you pull back the curtain a little bit on that moment between JFK and Dick PERSON, your husband. And that's the thing that JFK PERSON notices after his inauguration was in reviewing the troops. There were no black men or women walking. And so to have that sort of come forward for him and to have your husband right there in that moment to receive that had to be really an eye-opener for him, too, about theadventure he was about to begin in the Kennedy White House FAC.

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Right. I mean, I remember he said, you know, and naively, of course, he said, with a White House telephone, I call somebody and I can change the world. But it was that sense. There

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was that feeling in the... Well, that was Camelot LOC. That was

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it, right? Exactly right. There was a feeling that a lot of people were filled with a conviction that they could make a difference. I mean, he's the birth of the Peace Corps. Dick PERSON is there the night that JFK goes to the University of Michigan and 10,000 kids have been waiting for him. He gets there at 2 a.m. He's just supposed to go to sleep, but he has to do something. No speech had been prepared. Dickens and Sorensen had gone off to get some food at the 24-hour day cafeteria. So he just speaks on his own. He just simply asks them, how many of you would be willing to go toGhana GPE or a developing country to help out, to use your skills, to help other countries? And the kids responded so amazingly that they actually sent a telegram, not a telegram, a pledge around, a thousand kids signed that they would go somewhere to help other people in other countries. And that was handed to JFK PERSON, and that became the beginning of the peace corps. He didn't even mention it that night. So there's something magic that's going on.I mean, obviously it's all more complicated than that. But there was a belief that individuals could make a difference. And once we figured that out before the war came and before the sadnesses came, we both relived that feeling of that. Yeah, I was my decade too. I was younger.

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Right.

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To be alive.

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So tell us about the love story part of this.

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How did you meet Dick PERSON?

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What was that like? What was your first perceptions of him? And how do you think he perceived you? Because I imagine you weren't a shy little flower in the corner that Doris PERSON probably stepped into the room and the men knew she was there. And we're talking about the 50s and 60s, right? And we're talking about a very different time for women who have the intellectual capacity to hold their own and move in those circles. And so that must have been very interesting for him, too. Well, he had left the Johnson PERSON administration

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in 65 in the fall to go to a writing fellowship at Wesleyan, and I didn't come until 1967, 68. So we never met during that time. We never met at all. So we never met during the Johnson PERSON administration. I was a young assistant professor at Harvard in 1972, and we heard that Dick Goodwin PERSON was coming to take a room in our office building, which was a little yellow house. It was a very camaraderie kind of place. And we knew who he was. We were all kind of nerds, right? We were political nerd. So we knew he'd worked for JFK. We'd been Bobby, we'd McCarthy in New Hampshire GPE. We were kind of excited. A friend ofmine told me he was kind of arrogant. He was brash. He had wild eyebrows. He was captivating. And I'd really find him interesting. But I was working in my office. And all of a sudden, he just plops in and sits down in the chair there that's reserved for my two T's. And he said, so you're a graduate student? I said, no, no, I'm an assistant professor. And I told him all the things I was doing. He said, I know, I'm just teasing you. I know you worked for Lyndon before me. So we just started talking that afternoon about everything. I mean, he knew so many things about astronomy and physics and, you know, all music and I'll see,

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JFK and LBJ and then the BLEE good Red Sox, which we both loved. And we kept talking through dinner and then we never stopped talking for the next 42 years DATE of our lives. Wow. Wow. Wow. So what was that moment like when that part of history is standing in front of you? I mean, because at that point, you know, you're talking the assassination of a U.S. president for which he served. The Vietnam War is roiling. Johnson, from your time in the White House, has clearly decided, I presume, at this point, not to run for election in 68. So there were all these, all these interesting dynamics going on. And yet you two are finding each other and working your way together and fall in love and he pops the question. I think the most important thing was that he came to terms through

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this project that we did together with his feelings about LBJ because he had really, his most important work was for LVJ PERSON. I mean, he was there at the origin of the great society. Again, one of my favorite stories that I hadn't fully understood before was that he had just gotten there to work for him as a speechwriter in March of 64. Bill Moyers PERSON had made that happen. And then he came over. And then a month later so, Moyers said, we've got to go talk to the president. He wants to talk about his vision for America GPE. Now that the tax cut is getting through and the civil rights bill was getting through, he wants a

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Johnson program. So we're going to the Oval? He said, no, no, we're going to the White House FAC pool.

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They get to the White House pool and Johnson PERSON is swimming up and down naked in the pool looking like a whale. The two guys are standing there with their suits and their ties. And Johnson PERSON said, well, come on in, guys. So they strip on the spot. The next thing, three naked guys are in the pool.

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Oh, my goodness. Pulls over to the side. And amazingly, he says, I want to talk about what I want to do. And he outlines with a vision everything that he wanted to do.

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Medicare, A to education, civil rights, voting rights, immigration reform, NPR, PBS ORG, aid to the cities, pollution control. It was all in his head. And then they decided that they would have, they had no name for this thing that was being built yet.

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Right. And decided that a month later that they'd give a speech, which Dick PERSON had to work on.

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And that speech was at the University of Michigan ORG. And so I'm reliving this whole thing again with him. And that's where he comes up with the word, the Great Society ORG. That was Dick PERSON's idea, and he put it in a speech. But the Great Society ORG begins to outline what becomes the most progressive legislation since the New Deal. So he felt enormously affectionate toward Johnson PERSON then.And even more so, the next year where after Selma EVENT, Dick was responsible for helping to write the speech to the joint session of Congress to call for voting rights the week after the Selma attack on the peaceful marches had taken place. And that Dick said at that night, that's when Johnson PERSON calls for voting rights. And that's when he says, you know, I speak tonight for the dignity of man and the destiny of democracy every now and then history and fate meet at a certain time in a certain place.

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He can write this in such a short period of time. So it was in Lexington and Concord GPE. So it was in Appomatics. So it was in Selma, Alabama GPE. And then he says, you know, but even if we get this done, there's still much more to do for the blessings of American society to be shared by Negro Americans NORP. But if we work on it, we shall overcome taking the anthem of the civil rights movement and bringing it into the highest channels of power. So Dick PERSON said at the end of that speech, as he was standing in this well, he could never,he loved Lyndon Johnson the night. He could never imagine that two years later he'd be marching against him because of the war.

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So the sadness that was in Dick the whole time we were married about LBJ PERSON. And when we relived those high moments, he remembered what that meant. And more importantly, he saw this was all around us. The legacy had not been destroyed by the war as he thought it would be.

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We still deal with the great programs that LBJ PERSON did. So it gave him before he died a sense of fulfillment that he had made a difference, that Johnson PERSON certainly had made a difference, and that the country was a better place, despite the legacy, which will always cut his legacy into of the war in Vietnam GPE. So it was very soothing that we went through this. It made him feel much more serene in that last

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year of his life. Yeah. So you guys are, you're going through this, and you're having these moments where you're both reliving that period and sort of stair stepping through it and recapturing what was going on there. And I'm sure that as then and certainly during the course of your marriage, and possibly even when you were going through those boxes, you and Dick PERSON found yourselves debating politics and finding points where your opinions on matters of great import diverged. How did you reconcile those moments? How did you come to appreciate his view on Johnson PERSON, for example, or on some other issue?And the same with him, where you guys were maybe at a logger's head on a matter. Yet, here you are. I mean, like most couples, you know, you're not working in the same space. You're not doing, you're not in the same environment, you know, for the most part, you know, the wife is a businesswoman, the husband's a mechanic, and so they're not going to necessarily meet, you know, except for at the dinner table. But that was not your story. You guys were kind of playing in the same field throughout most of your life together.How did those moments get reconciled?

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Well, I think the most important thing was that through our whole married life, we'd both read each other's works. I mean, I woke up early in the morning at 5.30 so that I could get a few hours of work before he would come bounding down the stairs, ready to talk.

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And then we'd read the papers and go to our separate studies, but we'd come back at lunch and

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read what each other had written. So we were used to working and collaborating with each other. And we knew when we entered these boxes that it was going to bring up these disagreements we had. But what happened is, for example, as I was reading the speeches that he worked on for himself when he turned against the war, the ones he worked on for Bobby Kennedy PERSON when he turned against the war, I began to feel again, I'd been involved in the anti-war movement as a young activist, but I saw how the trust in government had been destroyed by the credibility of the fact that Lyndon Johnsonwasn't telling the truth about the progress of the war. And I began to feel what he was feeling. And so that helped me to understand why he had held those resentments for so long. And similarly, I came to feel a little bit more about why JFK was a hero in many ways to so many people, where his deficiencies were. And in the end, we began to both feel that the two of them together would have made an ideal president. You know, you have John Kennedy PERSON, the idealist, much more experienced in foreign policy thanLBJ. LBJ, the master mechanic of the Congress ORG, getting the programs through that John Kennedy had inspired. And together, their legacies were intertwined. And it sounds like it's simple, but it was, we really did feel that way. We would have, we had fun when we did this. I mean, when we went through the Nixon debate with JFK for the first time, Dick PERSON decided, let's have a debate date tonight. We had a bottle of wine and then we watched it on YouTube after we discussed how he prepared JFK PERSON for that debate. So the project itself was not all argument.

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It was, we agreed on most things, but also fun and it it mattered a lot. We lived our youth in many ways. And you get older. I mean, he was in his 80s. I was in my 70s. So to be able to do that together was a wonderful thing. Yeah.

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You know, I thought one particular article that I read at the time, and it's back in actually recently by Karen Tomlty PERSON at the Washington Post ORG. She noted this in her article. Doris PERSON was on a mission to helpher husband. Then in his early 80s, we live his own history starting from the beginning so he could better understand how the idealism of his youth had turned to disillusionment. As Dick approached the end of his life, Doris PERSON wanted him to understand and tobelieve that he and his work had helped change the course of America GPE. So here's a little bit of reverse question for you. As much as you were doing that for him, what was he doing for you?

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Well, I think all through my life, really, he had helped me to understand that I had activist desires, but for me, the way to express them was to study presidents who made a difference.

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I chose my presidents. That's the one thing you can do when you're a biographer. You can decide who you're going to live with, and it takes so long. I wake up with him in the morning.

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So I chose Abraham Lincoln. I chose Theodore Roosevelt at the turn of the 20th century. I chose FDR, the Depression EVENT and the New Deal. So even though he may have shaped history in a certain sense, I was able to know how history was shaped. And we both loved history. He had majored in history in college. He loved Abraham Lincoln PERSON. So we shared that guy. That guy was probably our major guy that we shared. And you're right. You could have a wonderful love affair with somebody who has nothing to do with what your work is. But when it is combined and you're in the same house and you can share it, it also made it muchharder. I mean, when he died, I just couldn't stay in the house. There were too many memories of this room. This is where we did this, this is where we did that. So I moved into the city and had to do something with our 10,000 books. Luckily, they went to the library and conquered the public library. And they've created a room called the Goodwin Room FAC, which is for high school kids

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go there. And there's our buddies. The books are surrounding them. So it may feel much better that

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they're still alive too.

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That is a nice, nice testament to both of your journeys and your work that the public now can come and share in that and kind of relive or live for the first time some of the journey that you both were on. Did you find that journey difficult in terms of when you're writing a book, you know, a biography and sort of telling someone else's story, do you find that the journey to do that? Because you mentioned you get up in the morning, you spend some time, you sort ofestablish the routine, right? So you've got a routine to do that. But when you're dealing with someone like Abraham Lincoln PERSON, which, by the way, folks, if you haven't read her book on Lincoln, trust me, it is seminal. But how is that part of the journey for you? And how was it for Dick PERSON since, you know, you're both historians, but you're kind of doing history

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differently. Yeah, I mean, one of the things that was happening in the term, in the project, when we were opening the boxes, I was going to be helping him write a book. So it was going to be in his voice. And then in the last year of his life, when he got the cancer that eventually did take his life, he asked me if I would finish it if he didn't get a chance to. He kept thinking he would live long enough to work on it.

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It was like a good luck charm almost that he imagined as long as we could keep opening the boxes,

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we would both keep living and we'd work on this together. But at the end, he knew that he probably wouldn't. And he asked me to do it. And I wasn't sure I could do it, to be honest. I knew it would have to be in my voice. I knew then it was going to take me some years because I'm so slow on these things. I knew I'd have to be writing as an historian, not simply as a wife, and that I'd have to do research and would it make me feel sad because I would be reliving his not being there anymore. So for a year or so, I wasn't sure what I was going to do.And then finally, one day I had had a little nook in my big house in Concord GPE where I had the same blue couch and a Moroccan NORP rug and a table. And I couldn't bring the furniture with me because I was in much smaller place. And it was all sort of old furniture in the big old house. So I did bring that little nook of that couch, and I finally was able to one day decide to sit on it, and I could feel like I was back in the other place and to the responsibility.

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And then it became something different.

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It became a history and a biography and a memoir.

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And then I had to get myself into it, too,

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because at some point, me and Lyndon Johnson are something that's important to, certainly to my future and everything. And I had lots of feelings about him. And I think he's the most formidable, interesting character I think I've ever met in public life. I wanted to give him his due because I think it's happening. Historians are doing that. He rose in one of the last polls. He was number eight and JFK was number nine. Boy, would

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Johnson PERSON have liked that. I know he would have. Yes, he would. I'm a little bit of a student of history. I love that period. I've always been fascinated by Lyndon Johnson PERSON as well, although Lincoln PERSON is my guy. And a team of rivals for me is such a powerful, powerful story that you conveyed, not just from the context of history, but Johnson PERSON had that kind of vibe about him, too, bigger than life, and very much a player, a factor in the course of this country, really changing the course of the country. And would you argue pretty much kind of putting the exclamation point on the reconstructionperiod that got shortchanged?

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Oh, without question.

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I mean, you just, you know that, you know, when the Civil Rights Act LAW passed, you know,

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in July 2nd of 1964, that meant 78 years of Jim Crow LAW laws overnight are gone. You know, the idea that for all those years, blacks couldn't go into hotels, couldn't go into sporting events, couldn't go into movie theaters, couldn't, you know, couldn't do so many things. And then all of a sudden, that ends. And the thing about Johnson that I think was so impressive was people were so worried when he was going to become the president after JFK, particularly of civil rights because he was a southerner.

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But that very first night, he makes the decision that he's going to make a speech to a joint session of Congress ORG.

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And he's going to make the passage of that Civil Rights Act his first priority. And his advisor said, you can't do that. You'll never get it past the filibuster. You'll fail. You'll go to your own election in November, and you'll have a failure behind you. You only have a certain amount of currency as president. You can't expend it on this. And then he famously said, so then what the hell is the presidency for? I mean, he really cared about civil rights. It was a deal. And then once that bill gets through, there's a sense offulfillment, I think. And then obviously Selma helped him to fire the conscience of the American NORP people to go for voting rights

Speaker 31869.64s - 1919.64s

the very next year. It's a fascinating period. And it's interesting, as you were speaking, I was thinking myself, as only Nixon could go to China, only a white southerner could do civil rights. I mean, and I think for Johnson PERSON, who, you know, was no fan of black people and black people weren't a fan of him, there were, it just made sense that he would do it. He would be the guy, that it wouldn't be Kennedy PERSON.It wouldn't be, you know, someone who, and who was slow himself, Kennedy PERSON coming around to it. But it would take a Johnson to do that. And it kind of made sense in the context of history. And, you know, the interesting

Speaker 21919.64s - 1963.16s

thing is it really went back even before Kennedy PERSON's death to he had a major heart attack in the in the 1950s when he had just become majority leader, the most powerful majority leader of the Senate had ever probably had. And he was so depressed after that heart attack. They couldn't even get him to stir in the hospital. Then all of a sudden one day, this is in 1955, one day, all of a sudden he said, okay, I'm back, shave me, everybody, bring the letters in. I'm all over. Somebody said to him later, what happened?He said, well, I was lying there that day and thinking, you know, what if I die now? What would I be remembered for? And he realized that he wanted to do something that had some historic marker. He went back to the Senate ORG. He got the first civil rights bill since Reconstruction, very moderate voting rights bill.

Speaker 31963.32s - 1969.88s

58, right? Yes. And he got that through. And then he obviously, as I just said, he made this his first priority.

Speaker 21970.46s - 1994.86s

So civil rights became the thing he was hoping that he could give, you know, it was, he couldn't have done it without Martin Luther King PERSON and he couldn't have done it without the civil rights movement. And he knew that in those speeches that was written in, that they were the heroes, really. But that linkage between the outside movement and the inside powers when change really takes place. And it surely did for him. And I guess all of us want to be remembered somehow after we die. It's just sometimes

Speaker 01994.86s - 2009.34s

those memories are much larger if you have the power that you do as a president. But it's one of the things I keep thinking about with all the people now who have parents or grandparents who have memorabilia, maybe in the attic or in the cellar. And then sometimes after they die,

Speaker 22009.4s - 2033.98s

they have to go through them and it's such a sad thing. And only if you start talking to them now, get the stories now so that you can tell your children and grandchildren. That's how everybody wants to live on through the stories that we tell about them. It may not be on Mount Rushmore LOC, but it could be just through a family or a workplace. And then that person lives as a result of that. So somebody said this to me when I was on the book tour and I just made sense to me, do it now. Don't wait.

Speaker 32036.78s - 2168.12s

Do it now. Don't wait. We're having a wonderful conversation, folks. I really hope you're enjoying it as much as I am with Pulitzer Prize winning historian Doris Kearns Goodwin PERSON, her new book, Unfinished Love Story, A Personal History of the 1960s WORK_OF_ART is out now. Get a copy. You will really, really enjoy this. We're going to take a quick break and when we come back, I want to get Doris and Dick PERSON's perception of the current history that we're living through. We'll have more with Doris Curran Goodlands PERSON right after this. Black representation in the media is critical.So critical. I can't imagine doing what I do today were not for figures like April Ryan PERSON, Eugene Robinson, and the late great Gwen Eiffel PERSON. The next generation of influential black voices can be found on NPR ORG's new collection, Black Stories, Black Truths. Black Stories Black Truth is a celebration of blackness from NPR ORG. Each of NPR ORG's black voices are as distinct, varied, and nuanced as the black experience itself.In the Black Stories Black Truth collection, you will hear stories of joy, varied, and nuanced as the Black Experience itself. In the Black Stories Black Truths WORK_OF_ART Collection, you'll hear stories of joy, resilience, empowerment, and creating world-shifting things out of struggle. Every episode is a living account about what it means to be black today from a unique Black NORP perspective. From Bobby Shmurda to The Wire, Michelle Obama PERSON to reparations,there's no limit to the range of Black Stories, Black Truths. from Bobby Schmerta to The Wire, Michelle Obama PERSON to reparations. There's no limit to the range of black stories, black truths. Black perspectives haven't always been centered in the telling of America GPE's story. Now they are the story. In NPR ORG's Black Stories, Black Truths, you'll find the collection of some of NPR's best podcast episodes celebrating the Black experience. Hear episodes from across NPR ORG's podcast that center on black voices.It's NPR ORG Noir. Turn on NPR today and hear a range of voices as varied, nuanced, and black as the country we reflect. Stories should never be about us, without us. Listen now to Black Stories, Black Truths from NPR ORG, wherever you get your podcast.

Speaker 02169.24s - 2197.5s

This is the story of the one. As a maintenance engineer, he hears things differently. To the untrained ear, everything on his shop floor might sound fine, but he can hear gears grinding or a belt slipping. So he steps in to fix the problem at hand before it gets out of hand. And he knows Granger's got the right product he needs to get the job done, which is musicto his ears. Call clickgranger.com ORG or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done.

Speaker 42199.42s - 2237.26s

We need to listen to people who disagree with us. Hey, former Congressman Joe Walsh PERSON here. I have a podcast called White Flag with Joe Walsh PERSON. Every week, I sit down with people who disagree with us. Hey, former Congressman Joe Walsh here. I have a podcast called White Flag with Joe Walsh. Every week I sit down with people who do not think like me and we model how to have respectful conversations, right, with people we disagree with. Learn to understand. We got to do this if we want to keep this democracy going. Listen to White Flag withJoe Walsh. It's a daily podcast, a weekly conversation, but you can catch a little something every day, Spotify, Apple ORG, wherever you listen to your podcast. White Flag with Joe Walsh PERSON. Check it out. Honest, uncomfortable conversations.

Speaker 12238.72s - 2270.62s

Face Palm America WORK_OF_ART is a show for progressives and others on the left who want to keep up with the ridiculousness that this country dishes out. Find out what cable news misses when they're waiting for Trump to appear at a podium. And also, every once in a while, get a laugh at how silly this hot mess of a nation of ours really is. If that's you, listen to FacePalm America. You can go to FacePalmamerica.com or find us on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify ORG, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back, everybody, to the Michael Steel podcast.

Speaker 32271.12s - 2349.04s

If you haven't gotten your copy of Unfinished Love Story WORK_OF_ART, yes, you need to get it out now by Doris Kern's Goodwin. It is a love story between her and her husband and history. And it's a great, great story. You've got Mother's Day just passed. So if you missed it, Mom PERSON, get her a copy of the book,sort of an addendum gift. And Father's Day is coming up. There you go. You've got to do it for Father's Day. And guess what? You're going to the beach in a couple of weeks.You need the book. So let's get that book out right now. So Doris PERSON, given that you and Dick were not just students of history and participants in history, you have a good sense of how history is made. You have a good sense of how we as individuals can impact history. What would be, what do you think historianswill make of this current quarter of the 21st century? Starting as we did on 9-11 EVENT and standing where we are on the precipice of watching the country potentially elect an individual who wants to be a dictator.

Speaker 22349.04s - 2499.2s

Yeah, it's going to take a long time, I think, to figure out where the roots are of what's happening to us. I mean, I think it's interesting that you point back to 9-11 EVENT because that was a shock to our system, you know, much as Pearl Harbor EVENT was during World War II, that there was a sense of protection that the oceans had, they thought, before Pearl Harbor. And then once again, that comes with 9-11 EVENT. And so there's been a series of crises in our country's lives. When you think about COVID EVENT happening and you think about the polarization that's now there,it's a hardest time as I've lived in. I think the one thing that Dick took Salas in and so did I. In fact, one of the last things he wrote was to just remember that we've had these really hard times in history. Obviously, the Civil War is one of them. Just imagine what Lincoln felt when he had to start taking his administration. Seven states already seceded simply because they didn't like the results of the election in many ways. They had lost, and he said that democracy is such that you can't acceptthe loss of an election. You secede from the union, democracy will be impossible. So democracy was in peril then. It was in peril at the turn of the 20th century. Dick PERSON and I often talked about what it was like when the industrial revolution shook EVENT up the economy like the tech revolution and globalization. There was a big gap between the rich and the poor. There were nationwide strikes. There were anarchist bombings.And Teddy warned that if people in different regions, sections, and countries began to see each other as the other rather than as common American NORP citizens, that's when democracy would be in peril. It was in peril in the early days of the Depression, the early days of World War II EVENT. And yet we came through those struggles somehow. When you look at them now from this perspective, the union was restored, emancipation was secured. We got through the Great Depression EVENT by mobilizing for the war. We allies won the war.But they didn't know that at the time. So we're living with the anxiety. And this is one of the last things Dick PERSON wrote. We're living through the anxiety. But the thing that we can take some solace in is that not just that we luckily had leaders there at that time, but more importantly, the citizens became active.As Lincoln PERSON said, don't call me a liberator. It was the anti-slavery movement and the bravery of the Union ORG soldiers that did it all. And it's the progressive movement that's there at the turn of the 20th century before Teddy Roosevelt. It's the civil rights movement, the gay rights movement, the women's movement. So that I think we're going to have to depend to get out of this about citizens taking real responsibility to for where we are at. And that means voting and that means actively getting

Speaker 02499.2s - 2504.28s

out there and is democracy worth fighting for? And how are they going to do that? They have to

Speaker 32504.28s - 2710.36s

manifest that by doing something about it. So you just struck my heart in such an important way because it really goes to the core of what I've been arguing the last, probably since 2015. And certainly even before that, you said you put two things together in the sentence.Of course it was the leadership, but it was also the people who align themselves in movements that sort of move the country towards its destiny. And I would contend right now, Doris PERSON, it is the failure. to sort of move the country towards its destiny. And I would contend right now, Doris PERSON, it is the failure of leadership, the lack of leadership, aligned with this generation of Americans NORP who are too self-centered,too self-possessed, less interested in caring about neighbor and seeing that same neighbor as other, more than anything else, that makes what you just said very difficult, which makes, I think, makes this period,at least in this moment, which I pray will change by the time we get in November. So, folks, we only got six months. Y'all need to get busy. Okay, I'm just saying. That makes this moment different from the others.Because you had a Roosevelt PERSON. You had a Teddy Roosevelt PERSON. You had, you know, a Franklin Roosevelt PERSON. You had a Harry Truman, a Dwight Eisenhower PERSON, a John F. Kennedy, an LBJ, a Richard Nixon PERSON, believe it or not, who transformed a lot of the economic engine of our country with, you know, affirmative action, sort of opening the government up,foreign policy, leadership there, not capitulation to China GPE, you know, not fascinated by the fact that he got a love letter from, you know, from the Chinese NORP premiere, but actually, you know, standing in the breach on behalf of America GPE and forcing the issue with our adversaries, in the breach on behalf of America and forcing the issue with our adversaries, Reagan and Russia GPE, the wild bear, you know, where is that today? Where is that leadership today? And you rightly note the movements, the civil rights, the social movements, the other political movements.I'm just sitting here watching these storylines unfold as voting rights are stripped away, as human rights in the form of health care rights and free association rights, et cetera, are negated. I don't see it. And people, you know, you've got students who are protesting on campuses now, but as a lot of folks are saying, well, okay, who cares what, so whatever. I don't understand it.Maybe you can give me some historical context here, make me feel better about it. But have you seen, was that the kind of run-up that a lot of us may have forgotten to those leaders and those movements at the time? Or is this really the aberration that I think it is?

Speaker 22710.92s - 2740.64s

Yeah, I think what you were saying at the very beginning is so important, which is that the kind of society we have right now hasn't lend itself easily to people really coming together, you know, in associations. I mean, you know, there's that famous book that was written a while ago, bowling alone, just showing that the kind of organizations that we had, say at the turn of the 20th century, when you had social gospel in religion, when you had settlement houses that spontaneously formed to help the problems of the industrial order, people,

Speaker 02740.82s - 2748.48s

and that's what did Talkville said about America GPE that was so great, but it saw us that somehow we formed groups all the time. So you've had responses to things.

Speaker 22748.58s - 2789.78s

You've had marches that take place when George Floyd PERSON happened. Something happened. It sparked the conscience of the country. Some changes were made. And now they're pulling back. And that's because you have to keep fighting it.It doesn't stop when you do something. And we don't have that sense of movements around these issues in the same way we did before. And I fear that the media is a huge part of it, you know, that people are believing their own truths, that they're not a way. Lincoln PERSON said, if public sentiment is fired, anything is possible. Without public sentiment, nothing can happen. And he didn't mean just public opinion. He meant a settled feeling like that slavery was wrong. He knew once that that had settled into the country in the north that was going to go away.

Speaker 02790.4s - 2795.2s

And that's what I thought January 6th was an event that would have changed public sentiment,

Speaker 22795.32s - 2878.3s

not just public opinion. I thought it was going to change the party structure, just like Charles Sumner's caning by Preston Brooks in the Capitol had changed the Republican NORP moderates. Moderates then joined the Republican Party ORG. That changed the political structure then. I thought that was going to happen. It didn't.I thought the hearings in that summer were going to happen. But something just takes its place and there's some new thing, you know, and there's something about entertainment. I was just talking to somebody who was saying that the reason she was going to vote for Trump was because he was charismatic. And you need a charismatic leader.You need a strong leader. And I tried to talk to her about what charisma is, that charisma can go in different directions. But there's something about the way we get our news right now. There's something. I mean, that happened in the 1850s. You read only your partisan newspaper. And you had truth was on one side, falsity on the other.And that's what helped to lead to the two sections coming apart irreparably until the Civil War. So there's a lot, you're right, there's a lot more things now. The only thing is it really seemed terrible in those periods of times, as it seems to us right now. It's hard to figure out, it's going to take a long time for this to heal, whatever's going to happen. You know,sometimes I keep dreaming naively. We're going to be celebrating the anniversary of America GPE, you know, in a couple years. And maybe there's something about that. There's going to be all sorts of stuff going on that can remind us.

Speaker 12878.8s - 2895.86s

One of the things that Lincoln PERSON said was that he was worried, he gave that famous Lyceum WORK_OF_ART speech when he was in his third, that there was violence in the air. There were mobs that were lynching people. There were mobs that were killing abolitionists. The rule of law was being unfollowed. And he said that part of

Speaker 22895.86s - 2929.52s

the reason we worried was that the generation that was the generation of the revolutionary war heroes, they all had families who knew what those ideals were and they were fading. They were dying. So we wanted every mother to read the ideals of the revolution to their kid, every pulpit to preach it, every school teacher to teach it. And somehow we have to be reminded of what this country was about. And maybe ideally, you look at that anniversary celebration, it's going to be a whole bunch of things happening. People will remember what it's like to have founded this country as a democracy. But we can't wait that long. We've got to do something before that. We can't. And you are a better

Speaker 32929.52s - 2938.96s

person than I, because my response to the individual you were talking to about the charismatic, we need a charismatic leader. And I say, yeah, that's what they said in Germany in 1933.

Speaker 22939.86s - 2949.48s

No, charisma can go in either directions. But it's a power. It's a power that must be reckoned with and understood. But we shouldn't be looking for power. It's a power that must be reckoned with and understood. But we shouldn't be looking for that. Every leader doesn't have to be charismatic.

Speaker 32949.82s - 2953.2s

Thank you. I mean, that's part of the problem right now. I think, you know,

Speaker 22953.22s - 2965.96s

somebody else wrote a book, we're entertaining ourselves to death. It's as if we're looking for somebody who has a voice that you recognize, who has a vitality that can yell and scream. And, you know, we never even saw the leaders in the

Speaker 02965.96s - 2971.82s

old days. Maybe that was better when he knew about him because of what he said. You know, you might not

Speaker 32971.82s - 2975.38s

have even recognized him walking on the street if it hadn't been for his top hat and his beard.

Speaker 02975.84s - 2980.26s

But maybe we were better off when we weren't just depending on their physical appearance or how

Speaker 22980.26s - 2984.28s

they sounded or what they said, you know, how they said it.

Speaker 32984.52s - 3036.04s

So let me ask you this, because it raises a very interesting point because I agree with you, a big part of what's driving this is our media, for sure, but it's our social media platforms as well. Right. When you and Dick were opening up those 30 plus boxes. Did you think about or talk about, could you imagine if we had Facebook ORG or how much different those stories would have played out with the sort of galvanizing force that we find social media has todaywhere everyone has an opinion but not much knowledge about what's happening in front of

Speaker 23036.04s - 3059.3s

them, but they have an opinion. And you think back to Roosevelt PERSON's fireside chats and, you know, 90% of the radios would be tuned in and you'd hear the same voice. Saul Bello PERSON said you could walk down the street and you could look in the kitchens of people on a hot Chicago night and see them staring at their radio or in their living room. And you could hear his voice coming out and keep walking, not miss a word of what he said, because everybody was

Speaker 33059.3s - 3064.3s

listening to the same thing. So the speeches then would have an impact that could become a common

Speaker 03064.3s - 3075.52s

conversation. There was a story about a construction worker hurrying home one night and his partner said, where are you going? He said, my president, he's coming to speak to me in my living room tonight. He's to greet him when he comes.

Speaker 23075.96s - 3110.68s

But we've lost that. I mean, we've lost that now with the divided media. I think that the problem is that even Lincoln PERSON understood he never wanted to speak extemporaneously. He knew that words mattered, that words could hurt and divide as much as words could inspire. So even when a union army would win a battle and they'd come to the White House FAC to serenade him and they'd all yell speech, speech. And he'd say, no, no, I'll have a speech when I'm ready.Meanwhile, let's just sing a song and praise the troops. Because he knew that if you let yourself be, and that's what's happening on social media now. People say things. They pull them back. They say, I didn't really mean that.

Speaker 03110.94s - 3118.86s

And nobody knows what was really said or meant. In the old days, words had consequences. And as a result, words could be trusted as a result of that.

Speaker 33120.04s - 3147.9s

For I let you go, I'd love to get your impression, your thought, that Dick PERSON would have about that period in which he was so much a part of it and so entrenched in this period. What lessons do you think Dick would want us to learn from the 1960s?

Speaker 23148.24s - 3191.18s

Well, I think probably the most important lesson is that so much has been sacrificed in our country for that right to vote. You think of what the suffragettes went through. You think of what the civil rights movement went through. People's lives were lost. They were hospitalized. They spent years of their life fighting for that right to vote. That right to vote is being diminished right now in all manner of ways, the same kind of tricks that were being played before in not allowing blacks to register in the South LOC.And without voting, then there's no chance. I mean, LBJ PERSON said voting is the fundamental right upon which all the others depend. What is it democracy? It's very simple. You vote to let your leaders come in or you vote to throw them out. That's it. Not complicated.

Speaker 33191.74s - 3196.44s

So the idea that we should not have 90% of the people voting is crazy in this country. I don't know

Speaker 23196.44s - 3200.4s

why we don't have it a national holiday. We should make it as easy as possible. We have to

Speaker 33200.4s - 3204.74s

decide that everybody should have a power to vote. And then we have to stand by that. The real worry

Speaker 23204.74s - 3221.52s

is that if we have these succeeding elections where somebody doesn't accept the validity of the election, we don't have a peaceful transition of power, then I'm really going to start to lose my historian's optimism about the fact that you tough times before and we'll get through this one again. But that hasn't happened yet. So let's see what happens in

Speaker 33221.52s - 3267.38s

November. Everything depends on that. Everything depends on that. And something that we can depend on is you. You, again, one of my favorite people, I love when you write. I love to listen to you when you're on the air. And I learn and I laugh. And I think a lot of us feel a sense of nostalgia, not in the sort of sappy way, but in an appreciative way because of the way you tell history. And that was very much evident in this book that both you and Dick PERSON wrote about your love, your love for each other and your love for the 1960s. It is such a treat to have you here.

Speaker 23267.5s - 3270.22s

Thank you, thank you, Michael. I'm so glad we could do this together.

Speaker 33270.48s - 3299.96s

Oh, absolutely. At any time, I look forward to the next time already. The book is, of course, unfinished love story, a personal history of the 1960s by Puehler's Surprise WORK_OF_ART-winning author, historian. It is about a wonderful, wonderful journey that she and her husband, Dick Goodwin PERSON,took together, shared together, and now have shared with us. So thank you so much.

Speaker 23300.5s - 3301.52s

You are so welcome.

Speaker 33302.08s - 3322.1s

All righty, folks, that does it for our time together right now. You know, I'll be back because I just can't stay away from you. You know, I love you guys. So do that download thing. It makes me feel good inside and be good to each other. You know, take a lesson from what Joyce PERSON had to say.Joyce, I did it again, Doris PERSON. It's okay.

Speaker 23322.86s - 3326.5s

Okay, so a quick side note. It'll be your nickname for me from now.

Speaker 33326.5s - 3472.96s

I know. So I was telling Doris, I was having a conversation with a friend Joyce PERSON before we got on the podcast. And so the first five minutes I kept calling her Joyce PERSON. And so here we are at the end. But take a lesson for what Doris PERSON has said in our conversation because there are some good lessons there for us to learn about how we treat each other, what our civic responsibility is not onlyto each other but to the country. So think about that over the next six months as you get ready to cast your vote. And don't get carried away with the charismatic crazy because it ain't always the best thing. All right, guys, that's it. Later. media is critical. So critical. I can't imagine doing what I do today were it not for figures like April Ryan, Eugene Robinson, and the late great Gwen Eiffel PERSON. The next generation of influential black voices can be found on NPR's new collection, Black Stories, Black Truths WORK_OF_ART. Black Stories, Black Truths is a celebration of blackness from NPR ORG. Each of NPR's black voicesare as distinct, varied, and nuanced as the Black experience itself. In the Black Stories Black Truths Collection WORK_OF_ART, you'll hear stories of joy, resilience, empowerment, and creating world-shifting things out of struggle. Every episode is a living account about what it means to be black today from a unique black perspective. From Bobby Schmerta to The Wire, Michelle Obama PERSON to reparations. There's no limit to the range of black stories, black truths. Black perspectives haven't always been centered in the telling of America GPE's story.Now they are the story. In NPR's Black Stories, Black Truths WORK_OF_ART, you'll find the collection of some of NPR ORG's best podcast episodes celebrating the black experience. Hear episodes from across NPR ORG's podcast that center on black voices. It's NPR NPR NPR ORG. Turn on NPR today. And hear a range of voices as varied, nuanced, and black as the country we reflect.Stories should never be about us, without us. Listen now to Black Stories, Black Trees WORK_OF_ART, Black, nuanced, and black as the country we reflect. Stories should never be about us without us. Listen now to Black Stories, Black Truths from NPR ORG, wherever you get your podcast.

Speaker 43474.06s - 3511.92s

We need to listen to people who disagree with us. Hey, former Congressman Joe Walsh PERSON here. I have a podcast called White Flag with Joe Walsh WORK_OF_ART. Every week, I sit down with people who do not think like me and we model how to have respectful conversations, right, with people we disagree with. Learn to understand. We got to do this if we want to keep this democracy going. Listen to White Flag with Joe Walsh WORK_OF_ART.It's a daily podcast, a weekly conversation, but you can catch a little something every day, Spotify, Apple ORG, wherever you listen to your podcast. White Flag with Joe Walsh PERSON. Check it out, honest, uncomfortable conversations.

Speaker 13514.88s - 3555.9s

Is it just me? Or have we all lost our minds? It's a question more and more people are asking themselves, afraid to admit they already know the answer. It's also a podcast, one about people coming together in a time of division and uncertainty, to talk about culture and politics, compromise, and connections. It's about challenging the norms we've come to accept as a society and working together to find common ground. Fierce and unfiltered, host Jennifer Horn is a former Republican strategist and party leader turned independent sanity activist. One way or another, we've all lost our minds.Join Jennifer Horn PERSON in the search to find them again.

Speaker 43558.28s - 3596.36s

We need to listen to people who disagree with us. Hey, former Congressman Joe Walsh PERSON here. I have a podcast called White Flag WORK_OF_ART with Joe Walsh here. I have a podcast called White Flag with Joe Walsh. Every week, I sit down with people who do not think like me and we model how to have respectful conversations, right, with people we disagree with. Learn to understand. We got to do this if we want to keep this democracy going. Listen to White Flag with Joe Walsh. It's a daily podcast, a weekly conversation, but you can catch a little something every day.Spotify, Apple ORG, wherever you listen to your podcast. White Flag with Joe Walsh PERSON, check it out. Honest, Uncomfortable Conversations.