Ep. 259 - How to Guide a Prodigal Back to the Lord

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We've often said to each other, someone came up with an 18-wheeled, a 3load of diamonds and said, you can have the whole lot if you turn you back on Christ PERSON, I'd spit on those diamonds.

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I'd say, take those stupid pieces of glass away. I'm not even interested. And Paul said the same thing, you know, that we might have Christ PERSON. Treasure in earthen vessels, the life source dwells within us. So the genuine convert puts his hand to the plow, doesn't even look back.

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The false convert is like Lot PERSON's wife. She just gazed back at the world. And so if the world has any pleasure for you, something's wrong.

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Welcome to the all-new try to finish the dad joke game, where we try to finish the dad joke.

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All right, guys, we haven't done dad jokes on here in a while. We should change the name to dead joke.

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Dad jokes, pretty much what the kids would say.

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All right, guys.

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It's your job as I, your lovely guy here, host, whatever you call me, says a dad joke, and you have to try to finish it. Ray PERSON, why do you look disgusted?

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I just don't know what's coming.

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Yeah, that's the point of it all.

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All right, here we go, guys.

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Wait, I don't know how to finish that.

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Okay, guys, you know, you understand this right now is your ultimate opportunity to prove that you are the daddiest of all dad jokesters. Bring it. All right, here we go. I'm reading a book on anti-gravity. It's impossible to put it down.

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Whoa, look at that.

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Look at that smug look on Oscar PERSON's face.

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Why do I take so much pride in knowing you to that joke?

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I don't know. That's how low my life is. He's like, yeah.

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Got it.

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I got skill. All right. I used to be a baker, but I couldn't make enough. Do. Yeah.

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Weezy PERSON died in the middle of wheezing.

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Oscar PERSON.

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Yes, sir. Has anyone told you a lot of it looked like Tom Cruiseeezing. Oscar PERSON? Yes, sir. Has anyone told you you like look like Tom Cruise PERSON? No. Well, they're wrong. They're wrong.

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No, no, you blew it. No, they did. I got it right.

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Has anyone told you he looked like Tom Cruise PERSON?

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They're wrong.

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No.

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Yeah.

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Well, he does look like?

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We're going to edit out the no.

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That's right.

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All right. I told my friend 10 jokes to make him laugh. Sadly,

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oh, this one's so good. I told my friend 10 jokes to make him laugh. Sadly, no pun in 10 did.

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That's so cute. You guys are off today

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All right

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Why can't you trust stairs

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Because they're always

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Letting you down

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Up to something

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Oh up to see you down

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Both of it worked though

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Taking you down

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All right

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I used to play piano by ear

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But now I use

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Fingers My hands Oh same thing Same thing That's such a ray thing Well you don't play with your handsYou play with your fingers I've never seen anyone play I thing. That's such a Ray PERSON thing. Well, you don't play with your hand. You play with your fingers.

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I've never seen anyone play with. That's cheap. I'm not buying it.

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That could be a new piano playing style.

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Ray PERSON, you have one you always talk about. Oh, the door handles for the bathroom is filthy.

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Oh,

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I shoot him a channel.

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That's one of my favorites.

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That's so disgusting.

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Why not your mouth?

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Ken Ham PERSON would do something like that. Ken Ham would use his chin and mouth, right?

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Don't say mouth.

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It's going too far. Yeah, way too far. All right. Why? Oh, no. I used to, oh, no, I did that.What do you call a pile of cats? A meowton. They couldn't have been guessed.

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Yeah. Why don't scientists trust Adams PERSON?

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Because they make up everything. Oh.

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Throw on an audience laughter there.

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The other day I was at Costco

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and

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I took my grandma, my grandma loves to go to Costco ORG.

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No, I'm just trying to tell you, I'm telling you my grandma loves going to Costco ORG. And you know, they've got like these giant racks of stuff and they've got like boxes and boxes all tied together,and this gigantic box of Kleenex ORG fell on me. I was okay. There was just some soft tissue.

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I love it because I look over and I see he starts to get the smirk before he even starts. It's like, my grandma, my wife, my kids.

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Christians NORP don't make good liars.

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Yeah.

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That's his nostrils.

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Okay, two more guys and we're done.

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I like these ones.

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What do you call a can opener that doesn't work?

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Can't open a can't opener.

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Can't opener.

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Did you hear that one before?

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No.

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Okay, last one.

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Ready? What did one ocean say to the other ocean? I see. I see you. No.

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Nothing.

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It just waved. Yeah. All right, France GPE.

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The torment is over.

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Oh, no.

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To help listen to our previous podcast.

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No, I'll save these for later.

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Oh, there's one more I got to do.

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One more, one more, one more.

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Why do peppers make such good archers?

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Because they have an arrow.

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Sorry, what was the answer?

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You were laughing while you were saying?

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They have an arrow? Habanero, like, have an arrow pepper?

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I didn't like pepice.

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Red doesn't like ketchup.

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It's a stupid joke.

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I put pepper on stuff now, and I like ketchup.

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I don't.

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I do.

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Salom pepper?

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No way.

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Yeah, I've changed.

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Well, you know why I don't like...

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Salontera PRODUCT? No, he's talking about salt and pepper.

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Yeah, but you know why I didn't like pepper?

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I've ever told you what I did when I was about nine?

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Sneezed nine.

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No, no.

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I went through my mom's kitchen, grabbed every ingredient of everything, put it all into a bowl, stirred it up,

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and this is milk, flour, mustard, pepper, everything I could find, and I sniffed it.

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Why would you do that?

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And I never wanted pepper for a while.

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Wait, wait.

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The next 60 or something years, I didn't like paper.

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Ray was 22 at the time.

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That was the prominent smell.

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So you've been like this your whole life.

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I haven't had my whole life.

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Ray PERSON.

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Okay, no, we're not just going to gloss over this.

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Okay, we're not just going to move on.

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Okay, France GPE.

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No, no, we're going to pause here.

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You sniffed? Yeah. Well, what do you think I did it for? There has to be a climax to why I put all

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that stuff in a bowl to see what it smelled like, and I didn't...

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Ray PERSON, you seriously have problems. Yeah. I mean, you have to know that, right? Look, that's,

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this is how things have been discovered in life. I mean, how did to know that, right? Look, this is how things are being discovered in life.

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I mean, how did they discover things? They did a little sniff.

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Behold, the Lord's anointed.

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They did a little sniff. How did they discover America GPE?

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They did a little sniff. They put everything in a bowl.

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How did they discover electricity?

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They did little sniff. Oh, Ray Comfort PERSON.

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Man, you are one of a kind. All right, friends. Here's a comment. This is from Joshua W. PERSON Laid back and rich and the good

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old practical stuff. Wow, I love that subject line, Joshua PERSON. I love the Living

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Waters podcast and ministry. This podcast is laid back in the sense that you can tell these men

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are truly doing life together outside of the ministry walls. The stuff I've heard would be hard to script. I love seeing God at work through you guys, and you always bring wisdom to practical issues believers need. Keep bringing God glory.

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We need to be laid back somewhere else.

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Hey, Joshua PERSON, W. Thank you so much. That's encouraging. And that's our aim to glorify the Lord. I hope we're doing it.

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Right to Oscar PERSON. He'll send you a free pack of tracks. Oh, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Wait.

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Hold on. What did? What kind of sweatshirt is there? Oh, that's funny.

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What is it?

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What are you wearing? Made in God's image.

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Wow.

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That is cool. Made in his image. Thank you. Where do you in God's image? Wow. That is cool, man.

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Made in his image. Yeah.

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Where do you get this funky stuff? This one was really cool, actually. It's this Christian NORP couple online who designed Christian's sweater.

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Wow. What's on the sleeve? Made in his image. Same thing. Oh, same thing. It's kind of in your face, isn't it?

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What's the website? That really caught me on the part.

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I don't remember.

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But if you Google search made in his image sweater, I'm sure it'll come up.

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Now, that must have been expensive

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because it's a lot of work on there.

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It was like $12.

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No.

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It was a little more than $12.

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I have no idea. I don't remember how much.

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Yeah, it would be expensive

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because that's a lot of whatever they call up.

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Yeah.

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You seriously never cease to amaze me, Oscar PERSON.

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Thank you.

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With your style.

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That wasn't a compliment.

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I had a feeling.

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All right, friends.

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This podcast is brought to you.

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Banging the track sample pack.

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I can't talk today.

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Yeah, by far the best thing you can get if you're wondering what sort of track is best for you.

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Because we have all of our tracks, all of our booklets inside there,

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and you're able to really think through it, meditate through it, and this is the one for me.

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You know what?

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That's crazy, Mark PERSON.

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This is like one of those down-memory lane moments because I think I remember getting a track, unless I'm mixing it up, a track sample pack back before I even... Yeah, it was in an envelope.

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We used to have them...

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Yeah, it wasn't the one that had like the Superman PRODUCT type insignia? Yes, yeah, we put Superman PRODUCT.

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Well, Super Tracks PRODUCT. It was called Super Tracks. Yeah, we put Superman. Well, Super Tracks. It was called Super Tracks PRODUCT. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, I was sniffing it.

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It's one of the most exciting things that we do carry because you just spend an hour looking through all of them and reading them.

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And laughing and puzzles and all that.

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Yeah, no, those are, man, it really is good because it gives you, again, a taste of what we provide as far as tract to go and

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could stir you up. And look, it's not just to look at after you've looked at the ones that

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you like, go give them out and then order more. And they're easy to give out and people ask for more.

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Also gives them out too, not just easy.

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Yeah, sure. I get them out. Good point, Mark. Thank you. Good night, Mike.

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Yeah. No. Yeah, don't forget it, friends, the track sample back in a living water's mug,

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an evidence study Bible WORK_OF_ART, all that. Livingwaters. No. Yeah, don't forget it, friends, the track sample back in a Livingwater's mug, an evidence study Bible, all that.

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Livingwaters.com.

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Yeah, that's the arrogant livingwaters.com ORG.

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It worked out.

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They called resisted from heaven.

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Frank, I just called you Frank, Ray PERSON.

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It's okay.

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What is going to?

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I can handle it.

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Here's your brother.

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I don't feel rejected.

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Yeah.

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Ray PERSON, this whole sniffing thing, is this why you...

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You're still not over it?

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Yeah, I can't get over the sniffing thing.

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Is this why you once told a boy that the bottom of a swimming pool smells funny?

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I didn't think of what happened.

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You know what happened, Oscar PERSON?

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I don't know.

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I was in a swimming pool with about a 9-year-old kid who was just a little naive, nice kid.

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And I came up out of the water and looked at him and said boy funny smell on the bottom of this pool he disappeared and come up choking

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that is so terrible to do yeah right I did I tell you about the chocolate milk one no I had this friend

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she's a history teacher now but she calls me one day she's like leaving her college class she's

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like hey I have a question for you but I think it's kind of weird.

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Don't laugh.

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And I go, no, go ahead.

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I won't laugh. She goes, no, I don't want to ask you. I'm like, no, come on. Ask me, I won't laugh.

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She goes, okay, I know that like milk comes from cows, but where does chocolate milk come? And I go. Chocolate kale.

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Brown cows.

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She goes, I knew it, but I did it. And I just started.

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Wait, wait. I got her. I got her. Wait, wait. She was, I knew it, but I did it, and I just started that time. Wait, wait. I got her. I got her. Wait, wait. She was joking.

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No, sir. She's probably telling someone now he thought I took it seriously.

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Was it your ex-girlfriend that became your wife?

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No. Oh, man. That's funny. Brown cows. Brown cows. Yeah.

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All right.

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Frayam.

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Great name for chocolate milk. Brown cow chocolate milk. How now brown cow chocolate milk? That would work. All right, Frayam. A great name for chocolate milk, brown cow chocolate milk. How now Brown Cow Chocolate Milk? That would work.

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All right, friends, today we are dealing with the topic,

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how to guide a prodigal back to the Lord. Ray, you know, for years... You're a prodigal. What joke you back?

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You're still a prodigal. Wow, Mark is on today. That was quick. Ray, obviously you have for years talked about how oftentimes the church makes the mistake of

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affirming those who don't really know the Lord as those who do know the Lord, but they're just backslidden.

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You haven't slid forward in the first place. Explain that.

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Well, there are tears among the wheat, foolish virgins, among the wise.

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And we deal with this. And true and false conversion, a lot of people say, oh, he knew the Lord, but then he went out and murdered his grandmother eight times or something like this. This is a bit of an exaggeration. But you will know them by their fruits. And Judas PERSON was never a believer. And Jesus said, one of you is a devil.That's a little clue that Judas PERSON wasn't genuine. And there are a lot of people in Judas PERSON's category. They never see Jesus PERSON for who he is.

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And so they make a commitment, make a decision, and never bring forth fruits that are worthy of repentance. Usually because they haven't seen the sin in its true light. So we call backsliders, backsliders, when they're not really backsliders because they didn't slide forward in the first place.

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They're false converts, spurious converts, of which the Bible WORK_OF_ART speaks very clearly in the parable is soar.

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That's good, Ray PERSON. Sounds like you've said that once or twice before.

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I was thinking the prodigal some thing is being seen from a slightly different direction,

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like the first prodigal was Adam PERSON.

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Adam PERSON didn't realize

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what he had.

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There's a famous song from the 60s

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that you don't know what you've got till it's gone.

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Sing it.

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No, no.

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I can. You can't. Yes, he can watch.

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You don't know what you got until it's gone.

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Like the friend you had

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named Deasy from Lebanon.

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Yeah.

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It was actually a song.

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Mark PERSON,

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Mark PERSON, I like that one.

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Thank you, Mark PERSON.

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That was a really good screech.

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But it was really

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the Adam PERSON didn't know what he had

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until it was gone.

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When he fell, he realized what he'd given up.

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And it was the same with the prodigal son.

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He had a relationship with a father that he didn't appreciate.

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And it's just reminding me as I was thinking of this this morning, how we used to have a

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bird aviary.

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It was more complex than the one we've got now. I had a bird aviary in which we had tame birds in a cage that we could see through this window which had a reflective, reflective glass on it, so the birds didn't know we were looking at them. We watched birds that didn't know we were looking at them. We watched birds that didn't realize we were watching.

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I remember that.

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But on the outside, there were wild birds that would come in and eat, they get the food and that. And I often thought, how do my birds that are captive feel about the wild birds? They sometimes look at the sky and think, oh, I wish I could be free.Or look at the trees and think, oh, those birds, those wild birds out there are up and the trees doing their own thing. One day something happened that changed my mind about the whole thing.

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And it was horrific. A hawk came sweeping down, grabbed one of those wild birds, and I heard a scream, a whale from the bird I'd never, ever want to hear again.

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It was just horrific. It was this little screech of terror. And I ran around to try and rescue it because the bird just had never ever want to hear again. It was just terrific. It was this little screech of terror. And I ran around to try and rescue it because the bird just had it and it hooks holding it like that and I was just going to pick it. And it just off it flew and I saw it flying off and I came back and thought, I wonder what my tame birds are thinking now.

Speaker 1919.44s - 927.66s

I wonder if this is not a prison. This is a protection. Wow. And that's exactly how the Christian NORP kid feels about his parents,

Speaker 5927.96s - 932.46s

telling him what he can't do. You can't do this, you can't do that, you can't be free to do this like the world.

Speaker 4932.92s - 938.26s

It's not a prison you're in, Christian NORP home. It's a protection for you because you go ahead 20 years

Speaker 1938.26s - 941.4s

and look at those wild birds, those wild kids,

Speaker 0941.48s - 951.32s

and there's abortions, there's suicides, there's alcoholism, there's drug addiction, there's premature deaths because they're out doing their own thing and are not on the confines

Speaker 1951.32s - 976.38s

of a Christian NORP home. So you don't know what you've got until it's gone and that's what the prodigal son, the revelation he had as he sat in that pigsty. I didn't know what I had when I was under my father's protection and that's when he said even my father's servants have got it better than me. I'll go back to my protection. And that's when he said, even my father's servants have got it better than me. I'll go back to my father. And so it's a wonderful type of just realizingwhat Adam PERSON had and what he fell, what he fell from, and us realizing what we've got ahead of us. Wow.

Speaker 2976.62s - 978.44s

Man, Ray PERSON, that's really, that's really...

Speaker 4978.44s - 1002.8s

We need to let Ray PERSON speak more. Yeah, Ray PERSON, speak more, Ray. Speak more, Ray PERSON. Yeah, you know, Ray PERSON, when you were talking about that, not realizing what you have in the regret, you know, it just made me think of, like,certain men who've committed adultery, you know, and they go out and they chase some woman that's just dazzling to them. And then they do whatever they do, and then they look back and they realize. She takes makeup off.Yeah. Sees what he got.

Speaker 21002.8s - 1011.48s

But they realize how amazing their wife was. This woman who was loyal to them for 20, 30 years, who took care of them, who was, oh, man.

Speaker 41011.74s - 1030.16s

There's a testimony in the evidence Bible WORK_OF_ART of a guy that committed adultery. He said, I didn't realize what I had. And he says, this is what I've got after I committed adultery. A wife that doesn't love me. Kids that are brats. And he just went on this huge list of what he had given up and what he had got throughone act of adultery.

Speaker 21030.24s - 1032.72s

For momentary, selfish pleasure, you know.

Speaker 41033.2s - 1053.36s

And then, you know, even like the woman who committed, you know, the woman who had an abortion, you know, and she bought into the lie that it's just, it's your choice. And, you know, the, first of all, the trauma that, the psychological trauma that results from that is real and serious. But later on, she can't have kids and she's looking at little children thinking, I murdered my own child and I can't.You know what I mean?

Speaker 11053.48s - 1107.12s

Like that, not realizing what you had, you know, it's huge. But, Mark PERSON, I think we need to take a look at the whole prodigal realm, I think, from two different standpoints. And we don't want to confuse things. So, you know, there is the prodigal who's a genuine believer who can stray, but yet it is broken over their sin. Like we saw David PERSON, he strayed. He was a man after God's own heart, and he foolishly strayed, but he ended up coming back. Then you have the prodigals who are notsaved. And today we want to talk about how do you go after either of those, you know? But I think it may be good at this juncture to just speak to eternal security. Because I know immediately when these things come up, spot of times believers who are genuine believers begin to freak out. We do want to address those who are consoling themselves at their believers with the living in sin. But for those who are genuine, speak to eternal security, Mark PERSON, how important that is.

Speaker 61107.12s - 1140.84s

You know, in scripture, I think it's a sermon on the Mount, when there's going to be people that are going to recognize Jesus PERSON as Lord, and he's going to say, depart from me, you work of iniquity, I never knew you. That cannot be the case if at one point he actually knew you. Yeah. Right.So this right there speaks of, if you're saved, you're always saved. We like maybe a slightly better terminology like that. Yeah. That if you are a child of God, you can't, you can no longer become a non-child of God.

Speaker 01140.94s - 1145.1s

That God is going to protect you. He's going to hedge around you. The angel of the Lord

Speaker 11145.1s - 1151.22s

encampuses around those who fears him and he sings songs of deliverance. We take a refuge under the

Speaker 01151.22s - 1191.36s

shadow of his wing that he is going to lead you until that day of salvation when you are ultimately led to the beam of seat. That is a done deal. Romans 8 talks about for the believer that not only is he justified and sanctified, set apart for holy work, but it also talks about for the believer that not only is he justified and sanctified, set apart for holy work, but it also talks about being glorified, as in a past tense way, that the believer is already glorified in one sense, in that it's a done deed, that our names are written in heaven, and there's no eraser strong enough that can eliminate us from God's presenceand from his book. That's very important to know. This is a beautiful thing to come to grips with

Speaker 11191.36s - 1195.68s

because when you come to grips with the fact that nothing can separate me from God,

Speaker 61196.2s - 1230.5s

that when I mess up, he didn't go anywhere. Right? Fellowship can be broken for sure. And this is why it's like, come. Confess your sins to the Lord. 1 John 1.9 was written to the believer, not the non-believer. If we confess our sins, he's faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us of all in righteousness.Right. We strayed, you know, from the path. And I think a really good picture of that, and I was just reading today inside of John PERSON's gospel when Jesus washes the feet of the apostles. And Peter PERSON pipes up, and he says, listen, you know,

Speaker 21230.5s - 1236.2s

don't wash my... Peter Pipes. I was waiting for Peter Piper PERSON. He picked a pickled peppers.

Speaker 41236.6s - 1245.12s

Pickled peppers? Pickled. And he didn't want to be washed, right?

Speaker 61245.18s - 1248.9s

And Jesus PERSON said, no, if I don't do this, then you have no part with me.

Speaker 21248.94s - 1249.9s

And he goes, well, then my whole body.

Speaker 11250.22s - 1252.18s

But Jesus PERSON says something very interesting there.

Speaker 61252.2s - 1256.12s

And he says, your whole body doesn't need to be clean, right?

Speaker 21256.36s - 1258.64s

That they're already clean by the word which he's spoken.

Speaker 11259.14s - 1263.56s

The metaphor here is, listen, sometimes you walk in places where you shouldn't walk.

Speaker 61263.72s - 1266.76s

And sometimes our feet just get dirty.

Speaker 11267.18s - 1270.22s

And you don't need to be re-baptized, if you would.

Speaker 61270.48s - 1273.02s

You just need to have a good cleansing.

Speaker 21273.48s - 1274.68s

You just need to kind of come back.

Speaker 61274.76s - 1279.9s

So the beautiful aspect of this is your sin is not greater than your Redeemer.

Speaker 21280.18s - 1281.9s

Your Redeemer is greater than your past.

Speaker 61282.2s - 1284.36s

And you just need to kind of come to your senses.

Speaker 21285.24s - 1287.76s

We will continually battle with sin until the day we die.

Speaker 61288s - 1293.54s

And this is why we have an advocate who stands before the Father, whoever lives, to make intercession for us.

Speaker 21293.54s - 1294.76s

Amen. Well articulated, Mark PERSON.

Speaker 61295s - 1295.2s

Amen.

Speaker 11295.38s - 1296.38s

Ray PERSON, I want you to touch on something.

Speaker 61296.5s - 1297.68s

Then Oscar PERSON, I want to come back to you.

Speaker 11298.26s - 1303.62s

Ray, I want you to kind of elaborate a little bit on what Mark PERSON cited that you often say.

Speaker 61303.62s - 1304.2s

Oh, I wasn't listening.

Speaker 11304.62s - 1307.96s

Yeah, I know you weren't listening, so I'm going to bring you up to speed.

Speaker 61309.3s - 1310.36s

I know you weren't.

Speaker 11310.52s - 1315.98s

You know, there's the whole once saved, always saved, but you phrase it in a way that I love,

Speaker 21316.24s - 1317.86s

if saved, always saved.

Speaker 41317.92s - 1325.7s

Just clarify that, would you? Hey, listener.

Speaker 01326.04s - 1386.02s

Have you ever imagined yourself having a box of goodies for you to give away to every friend, loved one, non-believer that crosses your path? Well, now you can get one. That's because Living Waters is given away 10 free boxes of goodies every single week. That's eight in the USA and two overseas. And this is being made possible by a faithful partner of ours that has given us funds to make these resources available to you for free. Each of these boxes has $100.That's right. $100 worth of tracks, books, and even your very own podcast mug. Go to livingwaters.com ORG forward slash podcast, fill out the form and then listen to the end of the episodes where we will be announcing our winners. Livingwaters.com forward slash podcast. Good luck. Yeah, the genuine, and I don't know if that's original.

Speaker 41387.42s - 1436.02s

The genuine convert puts his hand to the plower and doesn't look back, Luke 962. And it really comes back to why did you come to Christ? And sorry to fall back on this analogy, but if you put a parachute on to escape the jump that's to come, you'll never take it off. It doesn't matter what goes on on the plane, if it gets turbulence, if all sorts of fun things happen, you're not going to take that parachute off. It's prioritized to stay on your back. And the Bible WORK_OF_ART says, put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and we put on the Lord Jesus Christto escape the wrath to come. That's what Thessalonian tells us. Thessonians NORP tells us, even Jesus who saves us from wrath to come. So as long as I know I'm going to have to pass through death, and it could happen at any moment, there's no way I'm going to take off the Lord Jesus Christ.

Speaker 01436.18s - 1443.26s

It's a ridiculous thought, and we've often said to each other, someone came up with an 18-wheeled,

Speaker 41443.26s - 1446.98s

a trail load of diamonds and said, you can have the whole lot, if you turn you back on Christ

Speaker 51446.98s - 1474.28s

I'd spit on those diamonds I'd say take those stupid pieces of glass away from you. I'm not even interested and Paul PERSON said the same thing you know that we might have Christtreasure in earthen vessels the life source dwells within us so the genuine convert puts his hand to the plow doesn't even look back.The false convert is like Lot PERSON's wife. She just gazed back at the world. And so if the world has any pleasure for you, if something's wrong.

Speaker 21475.46s - 1475.68s

Yeah, it's so good.

Speaker 41478.48s - 1478.6s

You know, 1 John 219 WORK_OF_ART, easy.

Speaker 61480.72s - 1481.28s

Obviously, you have like the whole Bible WORK_OF_ART memorized.

Speaker 21482.98s - 1483.46s

But it says they went out from us.

Speaker 41484.26s - 1484.32s

They were not of us.

Speaker 21485s - 1489.62s

For if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out that they might be made manifest

Speaker 11489.62s - 1501.18s

that none of them were of us. So they left us, but they never really left us because they were never really with us. Right. And it just demonstrates where their heart truly was at. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 21501.7s - 1506.76s

Yeah. And then Oscar PERSON, you have the prodigal that does know the Lord,

Speaker 61507.38s - 1538.38s

and yet they, in a moment of weakness, strayed, sinned, you know, gave in to the lust of the flesh. Galatians NORP makes it clear that the flesh and the spirit are at war with one another. That's why Paul PERSON says, I say then walk in the spirit, you will not fulfill the less of the flesh. But there are those prodigals that are genuine believers and that have strayed. What do you say to them? What do you say about that? And how do we

Speaker 01538.38s - 1542.54s

reach them? Yeah, that's really good. You know what it's like? It's like I used to have these birds

Speaker 11542.54s - 1551.2s

that I've got. No, that I've, man, I've had a number of

Speaker 21551.2s - 1577.38s

conversations. I've walked with a few people who I think would fall into that category and I've seen some beautiful redemptive work in them. And I think one of the things, you know, we talk often about evangelism and apologetics. I think sometimes our approach to evangelism and apologetics focuses so much on truth and goodness as it should. And what I mean by that is like the scriptures tell us that there's three things.You can categorize three things about God.

Speaker 01577.7s - 1594.46s

Truth, beauty, and goodness. And I think in apologetics, we often depend on truth as we should. We often depend on goodness, the virtues that are offered through the gospel as we should. But often in our attempt at apologetics

Speaker 51594.46s - 1601.26s

and evangelism, we forget about the beauty, the beauty of the gospel, the affection and the love

Speaker 11601.26s - 1655.34s

that we have for the Lord. And it reminds me of Thomas Chalmers PERSON quote. He says, the love of the world cannot be expunged by a mere demonstration of the world's worthlessness. In other words, like simply to look at the world and go, it's ugly, it's bad, it's terrible. Repent, repent, repent. Thomas Chalmers PERSON says, we need to do more than that. He says, but may it not be supplanted by the love of that which is more worthy than itself. In other words, what Chalmers PERSON says, we need to do more than that. He says, but may it not be supplanted by the love of that which is more worthy than itself. In other words, what Chalmers PERSON is telling us is that we need to movepeople from an affection of the world, not just by reminding them about how worthless it is, but also to remind them of the beauty that we find in the glory that we find in the love of God. In other words, we need to turn them from seeing the things of the, that we find in the glory that we find in the love of God. In other words, we need to turn them from seeing the things of the world and remind them of the love that they have with God. And this is key.

Speaker 01657s - 1730.62s

Ultimately, why people go astray, oftentimes they'll think it's an issue of the head. You know, well, I just started thinking about the ineriancy of Scripture WORK_OF_ART. Well, I just started thinking about this. Well, I started thinking about that. And that's when my faith started to wobble. But actually, our wobbly faith is an issue of the heart, not the head.I love Keller PERSON. He says, like, every year he's got college students that goes off the college. And then every Easter break or summer, they come back. And inevitably, one of them will text them and say, hey, I need to talk. You know, I'm struggling in my faith.And he would sit down. And the guy would talk about the inerency of scripture, the problem evil. And Keller PERSON would just go, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And when he was done, he goes, so who are you sleeping with? You know, and the point that he was making is that, like, our uncertainty,our lack of affection for God starts with a new affection. What we need to do is point people's hearts back to the glory of God, replace one affection with a greater affection so that there's a new fervor and a new love, a re-reminder, restore to me the joy of my salvation. Yeah.Right? Yeah.

Speaker 21731.02s - 1767.36s

Yeah, that's so key. And oftentimes there is that kind of turning from, but not a turning to. And we need to magnify the beauty of who the Lord is. need to magnify the beauty of who the Lord is. You know, I think sometimes when it comes to the prodigal who is within the confines of the church, okay, let's put aside whether or not they're genuinely converted or not, but they have publicly and openly identified with the church. I think that one of the biggest tragedies in the church today is the church does not

Speaker 61767.36s - 1772.56s

practice church discipline. And you're raising a very good point on the importance of church membership.

Speaker 21772.96s - 1802.78s

Yeah, exactly, because how can you discipline someone who isn't an official member of your church? Because if someone hasn't taken that step to make it official in the sense that, like, we can get away, people get so caught up in the, where does the Bible WORK_OF_ART say to sign a piece of paper, right? It's not about signing the piece of paper. It's not about the written documentation. It's, the bottom line is, is it's about a clear confirmationthat you are under the authority of that church.

Speaker 01802.88s - 1817.96s

It's for your safety. Yeah, it's for your safety. It's for the health of the church. But if that isn't done, who knows who's really a part of that church? Because someone can simply say, oh, hey, we're, you know, we have to put you under church discipline.Oh, this isn't, I don't call it. This isn't really my church. I've just been visiting for 30 years.

Speaker 11818.26s - 1825s

You know what I mean? So, but I think that the church is, the church is in trouble

Speaker 01825.68s - 1860.26s

because it doesn't practice true church discipline. And people hear church discipline, they think it sounds so harsh. We're actually walking through a church discipline situation right now with a former pastor. And we reached out to other pastors for counsel to do this well.And one of the guys said something so good. He said, church discipline is like you saying, hey, we want you back. We want you here. Here's the process. And we are not going to stop pursuing you,but you might stop accepting that pursuit.

Speaker 11860.52s - 1883.76s

And when you stop accepting that pursuit, we are going to recognize it. So it's not like church discipline we think of as like, we are going to recognize it. So it's not like church discipline we think of as like, we're pushing this guy out. No, man, it's it's pursuing them. Yeah. But the disciplinary process lays out, uh, lays out something for them to either accept or reject on their own behalf. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, we want to look at some of those

Speaker 21883.76s - 1888.1s

passages like, like, you know like Matthew 18 LAW and 1st Corinthians 5

Speaker 01888.1s - 1890.12s

and 2nd Thessalonians 3.

Speaker 21890.24s - 1898.66s

But Ray PERSON, the church has a coddling problem. Wouldn't you say? They coddle sinners who are coddling their sin.

Speaker 41899.32s - 1921.26s

Yeah, because a lot of churches, it just sounds terrible to say. Even have pastors that are false prophets, false converts. We can accept that there are tears among the wheat and foolish virgins among the wise and bad fish among the good within the pews, but when we talk about them being in the pulpits, then it becomes really, it's almost unbelievable that someone could get in a pulpit and not be soundly

Speaker 11921.26s - 1925.46s

saved, but there are. And they don't have church discipline because they don't fear God,

Speaker 41925.52s - 1944.46s

they don't see sin in its true light. They don't really care about people. So there's that problem. Our churches are full of false converts and so are our pulpits. Just changing the subject very slightly. Well, it's erratically changed.I was thinking about the prodigal son and his older brother wasn't tempted to run away from his father.

Speaker 11945.2s - 1949.88s

I was just wondering why, because Jesus PERSON brings, in the parabolic son, it comes back to the

Speaker 41949.88s - 1961.06s

oldest son that's rounded off. And I wonder if there's something there that could be thought of. Were you a firstborn easy? No, you weren't.

Speaker 21961.2s - 1961.94s

I was the last.

Speaker 41962.84s - 1963.28s

Firstborn?

Speaker 21963.5s - 1963.7s

Yeah.

Speaker 41964s - 1964.32s

Firstborn.

Speaker 21964.32s - 1964.92s

Yeah.

Speaker 41964.92s - 1965.74s

You're the oldest? I am Firstborn. You're the oldest?

Speaker 21966s - 1967.72s

I am the oldest. I'm not the oldest.

Speaker 41967.72s - 1977.74s

I'm not the oldest. Because we treated our oldest different than we treated our youngest. When it came to photos, we took thousand photos of Jacob when he was first born and Jacob and Daniel PERSON didn't get any.

Speaker 21977.96s - 1980.26s

It's the opposite to me. Really? Rachel and Daniel PERSON?

Speaker 41980.4s - 1982.32s

Did I tell you this? I'm still

Speaker 01982.32s - 1982.9s

on my point.

Speaker 21984.54s - 1985.48s

Fair, fair.

Speaker 01986.64s - 1989.6s

But yeah, we also disciplined our oldest

Speaker 11989.6s - 1991.56s

more than we did our youngest.

Speaker 21991.9s - 1993.24s

And it was because the eldest

Speaker 11993.24s - 1996.14s

would say to the youngest, don't do that.

Speaker 21996.3s - 1997.32s

You're going to get in trouble.

Speaker 11998.06s - 2001.4s

So did you find it different

Speaker 22001.4s - 2003.92s

to be a younger kid than your older brother?

Speaker 42004.2s - 2007.14s

Yeah, I had four other disciplinarians besides

Speaker 32007.14s - 2011.14s

my parents. Oh, really? Well, yeah, especially in the Arab NORP culture, you know, anyone can basically

Speaker 52011.14s - 2015.82s

tell you all your neighbor can discipline you almost. Seriously? Yeah, it's pretty interesting

Speaker 32015.82s - 2023.66s

in how the Arab NORP culture works, you know, but, but yeah, I mean, it definitely, um, it had its

Speaker 52023.66s - 2026.32s

different, uh, I guess, pros and cons.

Speaker 32026.66s - 2027.86s

But, but yeah.

Speaker 22028.6s - 2030.84s

Oscar PERSON was going to say something, and I carry on saying nothing.

Speaker 42031.2s - 2032.18s

More humorous.

Speaker 22032.98s - 2036.92s

It was the opposite for me because I was a, I mean, my mom was a teenager when she had me.

Speaker 42037.58s - 2042.32s

And then when I got older, like, you know, the oldest is normally one that gets all the attention.

Speaker 22042.32s - 2045.18s

But then my mom had triplet sisters when I was 13,

Speaker 42045.26s - 2047.92s

triplet girls when I was 13 years old.

Speaker 22047.92s - 2048.18s

Oh.

Speaker 02048.34s - 2051.08s

And we have like maybe five pictures of me.

Speaker 42051.08s - 2065.72s

So you became an all event. Yeah. My sisters have photo albums and videos and we got none of that. And then we always give my mom a hard time because we noticed one day that her, one of her social media accounts was like, mother of three

Speaker 02066.92s - 2070.52s

and we're like mom you have four kids.

Speaker 22071.58s - 2073.82s

Yeah but you don't really count Oscar PERSON.

Speaker 02074s - 2101.76s

Yeah, yeah. It was pretty funny. All right. So Mark PERSON, I want you to speak to this. This is an example of how you deal with a prodigal in scripture. This is 1st Corinthians 5 and in verse 1. It says,it is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles that a man has his father's wife, obviously his stepmother, and you are puffed up and have not rather mourned

Speaker 22101.76s - 2132.52s

that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. And Mark PERSON, this is where, in fact, I think that sometimes, because so much of the church is by and large, biblically illiterate, if you were to read this to someone and not tell them it's from the Bible in today's contemporary church, they'd be like, what? Put someone from the church, but that's where they get love. And that's what, no, you don't remove someone from the church. What do you say to this?

Speaker 62133.48s - 2150.38s

Yeah, well, let not sexual immorality be mentioned even among you, right? First, we got to be careful with course jesting and what we watch and what we joke about. You know, all of those things are so very important. Matt Schmucker PERSON, he said, sin in the church left unaddressed.

Speaker 12155.04s - 2165.9s

It hurts our evangelism, leaves the proud unchecked, confuses young believers, hardens the unrepentant, and worst of all, it brings shame on the name of Christ PERSON. I was visiting a church two weeks ago, and I was talking one of the pastors about church discipline for his own daughter.

Speaker 02171.52s - 2171.64s

And he kept him referring to church discipline as a grace, as a grace.

Speaker 12171.84s - 2205.04s

Yeah. And we don't do that typically. Church discipline is not a grace. It's a harsh decision. It's a harsh word. It's an embarrassing act in front of the church body.No, it's a grace. We want to protect the sheep, but we obviously want to protect embarrassing act in front of the church body. No, it's a grace. We want to protect the sheep, but we obviously want to protect the sheep in light of all the sheep. If we're going to err on the side of grace, we err on the side of the grace towards the multitudes, right? We give people a chance to repent, and if they don't repent, the most loving thing you can do is you hand them over to Satan for a season so that their bodies are buffeted.

Speaker 62206.76s - 2206.84s

That Satan can do what he wants.

Speaker 12209.72s - 2245.38s

Now, bear in mind that even Satan has a leash on them at all times. Right? There's only so much that can take place and happen. But the most loving thing we can do is to deal with sin graciously inside of somebody's life.But we're not there to make fun of someone. You know, all sorts of things are in steps are put in place so that it doesn't have to go before the church. Matthew 18 LAW, you know, you go to them first by yourself. They're not listening. They're not receiving what you say. Well, then you bring another brother with you or two people with you. They don't receive that. You go to the elders. The elders are trying to deal with it. The elders can't get through. Then you bring it before the church. So that the rest fear respectfully.

Speaker 02246.86s - 2278.88s

You know, you look through the Old Testament WORK_OF_ART. I think one of the problems is that when we talk about discipline, we relate it to the experience that we may have had growing up as kids. You know, when I was disciplined, I was disciplined out of anger. You know, my mom or a stepdad would try to discipline me out of anger, out of wrath from their own flesh. And that's not a discipline you're thankful for.But when you look at the Old Testament, any time the Lord goes to his people in a disciplinary manner, you know what happens after? They praise him.

Speaker 12279.18s - 2284.6s

They thank him for keeping his covenant, for pursuing them, for putting them on the right path.

Speaker 02284.6s - 2300.2s

And so church discipline ultimately is our opportunity to come a lot of. thank him for keeping his covenant, for pursuing them, for putting them on the right path. And so church discipline ultimately is our opportunity to come alongside and act as the hand of discipline of the Lord, to do it in a way that, again, invites them into repentance, invites them back into the grace of God.

Speaker 62300.32s - 2301.32s

What's that text, easy?

Speaker 02301.56s - 2303.22s

Open rebuke is better than love, quietly.

Speaker 22303.34s - 2307.84s

Yeah, I can't remember the reference. Yeah, probably is for the good. Yeah,

Speaker 02307.84s - 2312.54s

but Ray, that's such a good point, Oscar PERSON, and I want to correlate this with the Lord

Speaker 62312.54s - 2317.6s

in terms of what discipline is for and it's love. But Ray, in Hebrews 12 LAW,

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says, it's quoting again in Old Testament WORK_OF_ART, and you have forgotten the exhortation,

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which speaks to you as to sons, my son do not despise the chastening of the Lord,

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nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by him. For whom the Lord loves, he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is there whom a father does not chasten or discipline? But if you're without chastening or discipline,of which all have become partakers, and you are illegitimate and not sons. I mean, this is talking about the discipline of the Lord have become partakers and you are illegitimate and not sons. I mean, this is talking about the discipline of the Lord. It's an extension of God's love. And by virtue of that very fact, discipline is also the extension of God's love to his straying people through the church.

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Absolutely. I just like to bounce off what Oscar PERSON was saying about discipline. It's almost nervous to say it even on a Christian NORP program, but spear the rod and spoil the child. I had a revelation when we first had our kids. I read, I think it was Deird of Discipline WORK_OF_ART by James Dobsonand it was either him or someone else talked about not using your hand to chasing your kid. This is the hand that loves. If you've got a little stick that you can hit around the areathat was designed for that very purpose,

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that is not your hand hitting them. It's the rod that they fear, not your hand. And I thought it was a great point. And the other thing, the reason I didn't want to mention is because I read where it's important if you discipline a child in love without anger,you should make them cry because that releases their anger. And I remember when I disciplined our oldest like that,

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he said something to his mom that he shouldn't say. I said, you're in trouble. Go it and just

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bent over the bed and really quick. It was last week? No, this was the week before. And he cried.

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And then I came back five minutes later with a clean ex and wiped his tears and we had a hug.

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And we went back and I began doing the dishes.

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And he sat at the table and he started writing. And I said, what are you writing? And I turned his paper around and it says, I love my dad. Whoa.

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This is one of your kids?

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Yes, Jacob.

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Wow.

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Yeah. That's amazing.

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And it really shows that if you discipline in love, the kid knows that you're setting boundaries, that you love them enough to discipline them. So it's not, it's a discipline, a correction. You want to correct the child and say you can't do this. Because if I let you say that to your mom, it's going to get worse as you get older. And I often say, if you don't get them when they're little, you're going to lose them when they're older.

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Wow, it's so good.

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And yeah, and that's, again, the whole thing, Mark, you've cited a few things from 1st Corinthians 5 EVENT,

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but yeah, I mean, Paul PERSON talks about giving such a one over to Satan, right? And the whole purpose is for their sake, for the sake of the church. He talks in there about, you know, removing the leaven from among you. A little leaven, leavens a whole lump. There's influence. There's impact.The church sees, oh, they're permitted to live in that sin. Well, I guess I can too. Versus that chastening that says, no, we love you, you know. Matthew 18 LAW is another passage, of course, if your brother sins against you and they're unrepentant, you come to them, they don't listen, you bring one or two more, they don't listen, you take them to the church,they don't listen, then you put them out of the church in the sense that it says, but if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. In other words, you don't associate with them now in the same way that you would, someone who is a full member of the body of Christ.

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And that's because you care about them. You don't want to give them a false sense of security.

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Everything's fine. You're calling them to repentance. You're letting them sense the discomfort of

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being outside of the covering of the church and the communion of God's people, all out of love.

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Listen to what Jonathan Lehman PERSON said in his book, what are the standards for membership?

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He said, by abstaining from

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discipline, we claim that we love better than God does. And here's the full context of that. It says the underlying purpose and every act of discipline, of course, well, it must be love. Love for the individual, love for the church, love for the watching world, love for Christ PERSON.

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God, after all, disciplines the one he loves,

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and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son. By abstaining from discipline, we claim that we love better than God. Wow.

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Repent. Ooh, that is one of the best quotes I've ever heard on that. I mean, really, it's crazy to think of the statements we make by our actions or inactions, right?

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About God and about how we

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know better, because that's ultimately what it is. And there's this golden calf of an idol that the

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modern church bows before, and I call it the golden calf of, it works. Pregantism. It works, right? I mean,

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hey, this is, you know, we excommunicated someone once and just didn't go over well, this and that, but, you know, we just let this guy stick around, and hey, he ended up repenting. Look, don't be foolish. Don't ever try to, try to substitute God's ways with what you think works, because I guarantee you in a thousand other ways it did not work. It was harmful to the church, and it was rebellion against God. it was dishonoring to the Lord and His Word. And so you have to really be careful with that. And, you know, Paul goes on in 1st Corinthians 5 EVENT, again, he says, I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people, yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the coveches

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or extortioners or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I've written to

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you not to keep company with anyone named a brother who is sexually immoral or covetous or an idolater or a violer or a drunkard or an extortion or not even to eat with such a person. I mean, scripture is clear here, and this is talking about, again, the person who clearly, objectively identifies with the body,everyone would look and say, oh yeah, that guy's a Christian NORP, he belongs to this church, and they're living in open sin and rebellion against God. We're not to carry on with them as though everything's normal and fine, not to even eat, which means to have fellowship with that person. And so these things are huge and important, and we have to think about it. But we're also called to go after those, right, that have strayed from the Lord.And, you know, in Second Thessalonians 3, Paul PERSON talks about it. He says, but we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ PERSON, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which you receive from us. And then at the end, he says that they are to not count him as an enemy, but to admonish him as a brother. So there is that heart of like going after someone, not in a manner of animosity, but with the hope that, hey, if this is a brother, we want to win him back. We want to have theattitude that this, he was amongst us. He's not acting like a brother. We hope he's one. We want to try to draw him back in and not treat him like an enemy. Call him to repentance, show him care. But let the discipline do its work. When you remove someone from the church, it doesn't mean when you see him,

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you just snarl at him and you idiot, you know. But you let the discipline do its work. And then you just, hey, man, get right with the Lord. We plead with you. You're destroying your life.

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Take the clean X to them. right exactly right and uh and reach them reach them with the love of the lord in that way and so yeah and then let's not forget um galatians uh 5 1 6 1 which says

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brethren you know what i'm gonna discipline all you guys for this nonsense. But, brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. Mark PERSON. You make me sick. You don't have to read that.You just have that memorized. But Mark PERSON, really, though, the importance of remembering that as we're pursuing those, especially those who are repentant, because sometimes, sadly, those in the church treat those who are repentant as if though they're still in sin. Like they condemn them and they're harsh toward them.

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The gentleness. How important is it? As far as the east is from the west, he removes our sins from us. When somebody is quick to confess and to repent, we need to be quick to move forward. It's just God's grace that that wasn't us and that sin wasn't our sin. So when somebody is genuinely, legitimately seeking reconciliation and wanting to walk with God, don't hold it over them in the past. I remember that you did this. Or if you're in an argument with your spouse and you're not seeing eye to eye, don't bring up past failures. It doesn't benefit anyone. So we need to be able to forget about our sin as quicklyas God forget our sin and he removed our sin for months. We need to figure about their sin as quickly

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as you forgot about that girl's name in the wedding. They listen to the podcast. Good job. But yeah, and I love what it says in there,

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to considering yourself lest you also be tempted. There's such an arrogance and pride in coming down

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on someone who's sinned and is repentant in that you think you're above that. Man, and it's happened time and again where someone who's done that ended up falling into the same thing. Or you hear about these pastors that were getting harsh toward those in the homosexual community or transgender folks. I mean like cruel and harsh and nasty, no love, no compassion, no attempt to reach them with the gospel.Then you end up finding out they're secretly involved in homosexuality, right? This has literally happened. We know as someone who was a well-known pastor that this happened with. And it's sad and crazy. And so friends, let's go after the prodigal. Let's remember Luke 15 PERSON, the father of the prodigal son, his arms were open wide when thatson returned. Let's plead with them to be genuinely repentant, and let's reach them with truth and with the gospel. There you have it, friends. I'm not going to end on nonsense today. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters ORG podcast. Winner, winner, chicken dinner. I have no idea where that ridiculous saying came from. But friends, we do have winners.Winners for the podcast giveaway. That is the Living Waters ORG podcast. We have Angela from Yucca Valley, California. Yvonne from Crestline, California. Brooke from Clayton, North Carolina, Andrea from Anderson, Indiana GPE, Elias from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania GPE, Becca from Lincoln University, Pennsylvania,Lowe from Yakima, Washington, Don from Charleston, Illinois GPE, John from Ford, Australia, good on you, might. And Dave from Will & Lane, United Kingdom GPE. Congrats.