506: Jane Bamford on using ceramics to support ecosystems

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A special thank you to the Archie Bray Foundation for sponsoring this episode of Tales of the Red Clay Rambler WORK_OF_ART. The Bray Clay business is your best source for Braypoxie, a two-part, moldable epoxy intended for post-firing repairs. Working like clay, it's easy to shape, texture, fill gaps, and recreate missing parts. Braypoxie PRODUCT is sold in tan, white, and black base colors, and we also have a nine color kit that will allow you to perfectly disguise your repair. To place your order, call us at 406, 442, 2521, or order online anytime at Archiebraithclay.com. Welcome to the Tales of a Red Clay Rambler WORK_OF_ART podcast, featuring interviews with culture makers from around the world.

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This is Ben Carter PERSON. I'm going to be your host. If you'd like more information on the show, please visit our website. Tales of a Red Clay Rambler.com WORK_OF_ART.

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Welcome back to episode 506 of the podcast. Thank you all for tuning in. Today on the show, I talk with Tasmanian artist Jane Bamford PERSON. She creates ceramic sculptures and environmental prosthesis that are placed in nature to help rebalance the Australian NORP ecosystem. In our interview, we talk about the pressure climate change is putting on Tasmania GPE, working with scientists to create environmental design and how her motivation for art making has changed over time. To see examples of her work, you can visit jane Bamford.com ORG. Before we get to thatinterview with Jane PERSON, I wanted to plug an exhibition that I'm a part of. There's a show called Together at the Table, which is up now until May the 25th at Baltimore Clayworks ORG. The show features 14 potters who have made dinnerware for the table, and it also features a local woodworking studio that has made tables and other furniture. If you'd like more information, you can go to Baltimore Clayworks.org ORG. Also I wanted to throw a plug out there for next year's InSICA ORG podcast room. We are accepting submissions, so if you'd like to be a part of the conference programming,you can get a panel of two or three panelists and one moderator together and apply to be a part of the podcast room. It is a blast to record something in front of a live audience, so if you're interested and you have a topic you really want to talk about, get your application in before May the 2nd. You can find out more about that and inseca.net ORG slash presentations. Without further ado, we'll get to the interview. So I thought we would start talking broadly about some of the environmental issues that Tasmania GPE faces, because you're in what you've described in other interviews as a hotspot.You know, like the water temperature is increasing. Even on land, there are some things that are happening. Can you talk a little bit about that?

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Yeah, yeah. So I guess, you know, Tasmania GPE, I just want to introduce it as an island state of Australia, so it's in the south. And it's about the size of West Virginia, I think, with a population of 585,000 or something like that. So about a quarter of Tasmania GPE is listed as World Heritage. And then it's also got a lot of environment that's, you know, national parks. And so it's like got these incredible natural values. And also, if you're talking about the marine environment, which I work in a lot, incredible natural values.And also, if you're talking about the marine environment, which I work in a lot, it's part of the Great Southern Reef LOC. So the Great Southern Reef LOC is a great rocky reef system that's full of kelps systems, and it runs from Western Australia GPE, all across the southern part of Australia GPE,part way up New South Wales GPE coast, but all wraps around Tasmania GPE. So I've got these incredible algal ecosystems in the marine environment. So that's sort of just a little bit of Tasmania GPE. So if you go south next stop, Antarctica LOC. So it's quite south.And it's about 42 degrees south, and it's a temperate maritime climate. So as part of the marine environment, I sort of grew up on a little farm, and then we would go up to the mountains in the holidays or go to the coast.And there was this little place called Tribunner LOC. We used to had a shack at. And so I would spend a lot of time either in the mountains or in the marine environment. So I got to know those places really well. And over a period of time, and through my lifetime, I've seen like incredible changes in the marine environment.So we had these big systems of kelp and the kelp species called macrosistis pyrefera or giant kelp. And we've since lost aboutrosistis pyrefera or giant kelp. And we've since lost about 95% of that. So I've seen that in my lifetime. So part of that is to do with the East Australia Current LOC. The East Australian LOC current runs down the east side of Australiaand insurges down into Tavomanium LOC waters but then retreats. And as we've had this climate change and this global warning, the part of the east coast of Australia GPE has got this, has become this hot spot in marine temperature. And the East Australia LOC current is staying, which brings with it range extension of species,it's nutrient poor, whilst the southern ocean is nutrient rich. So these big algal systems have really changed, and I've seen that in my lifetime. So that's sort of been part of, yeah, what's my understanding of the marine system has been from looking like, looking and being curious as a child and then seeing these changes.

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You mentioned range extension, and I had heard you talk about that there was a starfish, the Northern Pacific, is that right? The Northern Pacific Starfish.

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Can you talk about it coming to Tasmania GPE and how that specifically affected the environment there?

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So, Centress-Stefanoz-Roges-E-I, which is the long-spine sea action, has come down as range extension.

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So range extension isn't like an introduced species. It comes down on the currents. And then because of the fact that East Australian LOC current is persisting here, it sort of stays here. And so part of that, the problem with that is that it's a voracious eater of our algae or kelp systems. So it caused these big urchin barons off the east coast of Tasmania where it basically eats and eats and eats. And so it's a major predator as the large crayfish, which we fish.So we've got these like difficult decisions to make about how we're going to use our fishing practices and also this loss of, you know, large areas of our old species. So, yeah, range extension is something that will happen as climate change happens. And some species are able to migrate and some species aren't.So those that migrate may migrate and then they create new linkages. And the linkages that they've left or the areas that they've left, you know, we'll have to adapt. So this is like happens in terrestrial environment but also in the marine environment.And it's really from working with, you know, five different science teams that I've been working with that I've got a better understanding of what this is and that. And so that's a lot of what underpins the way I look at things. And it just gives me a greater understanding of actually the ecosystems. You know, I feel like, you know, I wish in the early days we'd all study math, science, and ecology. But like most people have a pretty lowunderstanding of ecological systems, which is a problem. Well, the reason I wanted to start with

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this topic is that it's a balance. And once things are out of balance, all hell breaks loose.

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Yeah, well, I mean, I think as we go forward, this balance is changing really quickly. we go forward, this balance is changing really quickly and, you know, NAC systems do change, but I think it's the speed of the change that's going to be, you know, yeah, problematic.

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So can you talk about working with scientists to understand when a specific place is out of balance so that you can potentially make ceramic elements to help it get back in balance?

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Yeah, so I guess for me, I started working on some artwork to do with Centra Stephanus Roj, SEI, the long spine, sea urchin and kelp. And that sort of gave me the understanding of how important doing your research is. So like I started spending time with a scientist who was explaining what was happening. And some of the things that I had assumed were actually incorrect. So I think research is really sort of where you start with.And then from that work, I was making these long porcelain spines. I was approached by Tim Fountain, who works at the CSIRO ORG, and he's a marine technician. So this is a big Commonwealth Science and Investigation Research Organisation ORG. And they were working with a species called the spotted handfish. Now, the spotted handfish only existsin the Dermont River, in Hobart, which Hobart is the capital of Tasmania GPE. And it used to be really, really prevalent in this area. And they had found that this species was really in decline. And it's the first bony fish to be listed on the International Conservation of Nature's Red List and on the Biodiversity Act LAW. So there was some funding around supporting this species. And the CSIRO ORG had been putting artificial spawning habitat out. And they'd been using plastic artificial spawning habitat which whenyou're working with it critically in that fish withy plastics not a great thing but next stop is extinct in the wild so you know they've gone into this idea of like trying to support this species the problem with this species is that whilst most fish spawn into the water column the spotted handfish does this gorgeous dance where the male and female lay, do these dance and they lay 80 to 100 eggs around the stalked acidion. So this is where we talk about biodiversity and the fact that a spotted handfish needs anacidion or a substrate to actually spawn on. And with the introduction of the North Pacific Sea Star into the Derwent River LOC, they'd eat in the spawning habitat. So basically the CSI ORG were putting out spawning habitat for this fish. And because it was plastic, they were looking for another material. And I think they put it out to industry.And they, for whatever reason weren't interested and then this guy Tim Fountain PERSON got in touch with me because he knew I worked in ceramics. Ceramics is a really good material for the marine environment. It's stable, it's biosecure once it's fired. Basically if it breaks it becomes a rock, it gets tumbled around so it's not a pollutant. And as we know, like we've seen shipwrecks and whatever,it's very stable. It stays in the marine environment for a long time. So he knew that I worked in clay and he was like, Janie PERSON, do you want to come and work on this? And I was like, sounds like a really interesting project. And so I started making artificial sporting habitat for the breeding program.So there's a couple of areas where they collected spotted handfish to try and breed them up to then reintroduce back into the wild. And in 2017, a spotted handfish spawned on this ceramic material that I'd made. And so that was like pretty amazing. And Dr. Lynch PERSON, who's the senior research scientist on the project approached me as said Janie we want 3,000 foot the wild so the spottedhandfish only exists in seven or eight eight or nine I think they've found now sites in in the Dirt River LOC so they call they they they wanted to put in these like ash fields or artificial spawning habitat fields where these fish, they're pretty cruisy. They walk around on their hands. Like, you know, they sort of swim a little bit and then just like cruise around on their hands. But it means that they could persist in those areas and they had somewhere to spawn.So that was pretty exciting. I got time off work. I got about five months off work and asked the University, the University of Tasmania ORG, for a residency. And they were super generous and gave me time and the kilns and space to make this large run of work.So we actually made it in two pieces. So it's actually 6,000 units. So that was like really big. And like as I was working, you sort of, you don't even really know whether this is going to work in the wild. So these artificial sporting habitat, these little ceramic ash, I'm going to call them, are then diver deployed into the Derwent River. So they started around June 2018.The water temperature is about 10 degrees, look for a good day. And they put out these transect lines. So it's like start at one point and then every little while they'll plant one. And each one are GPS marks.So they take data on the uptake. Such an interesting project. And then so they started diving these in. And one of the divers who was actually volunteering on this project, Laura Smith PERSON, she started sending me these photos back of these little spotted handfish,

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like parking themselves next to these ceramic ash. It's like, this looked like a good spot.

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And so it was like quite astonishing, you know. And so over the next, you know, three or four months, they'd dive the rest of them in and spawning season, September. And then the news came that they'd actually spawned on this ceramic material in the wild, which was like so incredible.

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And for this to be your first project that it worked, you know, the shape work, the design worked. Because part of this we should explain is because they are literally put into the water by divers, and you mentioned that at 10 degrees sea, which is cold, they're going to be wearing gloves. They're going to be wearing wetsuit gloves. So it has to work for the fish, but it also has to work for the diver, like to beable to actually physically do this. Yeah, so it's really important. Like my relationships with

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the divers or the people who actually have the eyes underwater, you know, like I'd go, so what do you think about this? And it's like, for me, it was really important that also, I mean, I've got a background of working in porcelain, making fine work. I wanted them to be beautiful, you know, and also, like, so they're not, like, got little bits on them that would, like, catch on divers gloves or what have you. And, and, yeah, and having it, so they were easy to deploy because it's a you know you're you're

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underwater for a long time and it's cold and so yeah having those relationships was really important

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and having that feedback from from the science team and you're like I'd visit them and we'd have a look at the tanks and like I'd have a look at spotted handfish and they'd come and visit me and like see what a kiel look like and you know it's like it was really exciting yeah and then from that um there was one area that like there'd been a bit of um there'd been a few breakages and the science team thought maybe it was Melbourne race so they come down low they filter feed and so there'd been somebreakages. So the next year I was looking at making another 2,500. And so once again, asked the university for another residency, and they were super generous. They've been really generous in supporting me. And it's also that sort of cross-disciplinary work that's so interesting. And I'm in amongst their students, like, and I'm talking about this work, working in clayin the marine environment, habitat and species support. So, yeah, it's really fascinating work. But I started, I sort of went, oh, okay, I wanted to have a look at durability. So I started thinking, I'm going to, so they were the spine or where they spawned around was like seven meal extruded. So then I decided, okay, I'm going to make 9, 11, 13 and 15. Talk to the divers about what they've seen them spawn on, like see, see if we can bump up and get a bit of durability.So then I contacted the university's engineering department and just like sent this little email, like, I want to come and stress test ceramic rods. And they were like, absolutely. And they gave me like time in their workshop and a techie to work with. And we tested these ceramic rods. So then I had data to give to the CSRIO on what's the durability and what sort of stressthat each of these ceramics rods would take. And they chose the nine and the 11 mill. So that changed the design a bit so fascinating because you get to redesign. You get to look at things, what worked, what didn't. You get the feedback. And so they chose the 9 and 11 mil and they both put both of them, 50, 50% of them in the next year,2019, into the marine environment. And they spawneded on both but they preferred the nine. So then we had this little sweet spot, yeah, which was really great.

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Yeah.

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All of this is happening on in a, is it a tidal river?

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Is it coming in and out every day or is it flow in one direction? It is.

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It's a big estuary though.

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Like, you know, so big boats coming in, yeah, all the time. Yeah, but the areas that spotted handfish are in, and they're more in protected bays.

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Yeah, because all this is happening in an active ecosystem. I mean, one of the things that is interesting about this is that you're trying to create a ceramic object that works, but what works now might not work in five years. Like you might have to come back to the design, or actually it's been five years because you started in 2017. So beyond it getting bigger, the actual object that you made that is the spawning habitat, what else has changed that you've been able to learn from or that the scientistshave been able to learn from as they're using your sculpture slash spawning? Well, anything that goes in the

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marine environment gets what they call biofowl. So algae will grow on it and what have you. So they actually go down and either clean them. The problem with spotted handfish is that until they get, you know, you basically, you know, so sometimes I get asked to go and talk about it and people will say artists saving a species and I go, no, no, no, this is actually just moving from critically endangered to endangered. You know, this is what we think the data's looking like that we've moved at one step backwards. You're not saving a specieshere. And maybe in some of these situations, it's just like that we've moved at one step backwards, you're not saving a species here. And maybe in some of these situations, it's just like putting these species into a holding pattern until some other solutions can be made. And one of the incredible thing that's happening in that project is the development of eco-moorion. So spotted handfish spawn in these small protected bays, which is also where we have our moorings and our little boats.And chain moorings, once the wind blows, it sort of drags this area. The chain drags and seagrass and the habitat, which could be like a you know a 10-meter diameter circle depending on the prevailing winds and so what they're doing is they're developing eco moorings in these systems it's just more on a bungee system so you think abouthabitat and the marine environment how many boats we have in the marine environment and if we can have eco moorings in Hobart GPE, we can have them in all those protected bays, which is where you're, you know, fish spawn and their nurseries for fish. So like the potential for this initiative, and it may well be the legacy of the spotted handfish, is enormous for the marine environment.

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We'll be right back after a quick word from our sponsors. Today's episode is brought to you by the Rosenfield Collection of Functional Ceramic Art ORG.

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The collection exists as an online resource for research and inspiration featuring photos of over 4,000 objects made by over 1,000 artists. The images are high quality and can be used with no permission required, making them a great resource for students and teachers. To find out more, visit Rosenfieldcoll Collection.com ORG. The thing about this that pops out to me is that in the beginning, you talked about how they asked industry, and we should spell up, this is a commonwealth organization, meaning that it's the whole British Commonwealth.Australia GPE is a part of that. So this is an international agency asking industry for help. An industry was like, no, we're not going to do it, probably because there's no money in it.

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Well, I don't actually, you know, they sort of said they've reached out to industry and that wasn't happening. But, you know, like, with anything, it's sort of, it's the relationships, you know, isn't it? You know, and what I've found, you know, sometimes the fact that I grew up on a farm, I spent all my time underwater, I knew the underwater world, I knew how it worked, I knew the ecosystem. It's like maybe I was the right person to do this work, you know, and it's, I had the connections with the university. I worked in play. I was like super invested in it in, in my heart.You know, maybe, I don't know, it's sort of like sometimes maybe it is just the right thing to do

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it sort of locally. Well, that's what I wanted to ask is that it starts with an international push, but then this is a specific fish that lives in a specific river in Tasmania GPE. Like this is not, for instance, doing something to help the Great White Sharks habitat.

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So one of the things I'm interested in is how you as a Tasmanian NORP feel about that fish specifically. Because I think some people might be listening and they might think, well, who cares about that fish?

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So tell me why that fish is important.

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I think it's so interesting because actually as this project, you know, continued on, it has become, like people say, oh, is a spotted handfish one of the um the icons of the do and you know it's like i think it's just that idea of care you know like people really do care about their environment here and and that's care is one of the things that you know i'm as a as i'm thinking and i'm making this work i I realized that actually, you know, and I would have been like a little bit maybe uncomfortable as a younger artist to say that actually my work is all about empathy and care. And I would have thought that was a little bit soft,a bit of a soft option years ago, but actually now I think it's the most profound thing you can do. And so I'm sort of researching people like Joanna Macy who wrote a lot about deep ecology. And she sort of came across people and, you know, I had eco-grief, you know, which is we have that in Tasmania GPE.Like, you know, we have a lot of wood chipping. We lose at our forests. We have salmon farming in our, in our pristine waters. So this idea of eco-grief and what you do with it, you know, so Joanna Macy PERSON talks around the idea of grief as being, and she re-framed it for me. It's the most profound sense of care and for me it was like instead of being thinking oh well I'm just overreacting or I'm being um you know she talks aboutyou know it's like it's this idea that you just go away take a tablet you know don't worry about it it'll all be all right but actually for me, it gave me a lot of power to understand that care was a really powerful thing that you can do and that you can step into it and you don't need to know it all. You don't need to be an expert, but you can come from what I've seen and what I believe. And so it gave me such bravery to be able to actually step into this work and do this work that I didn't even know whether it was going to work underwater.And so, and from that, to CSI wrote and I put this design into a little Tasmania Design Award WORK_OF_ART. And it had this new category called Design for Impact WORK_OF_ART. And I said, Tim PERSON, this is us. And we won that award. But I walked around that exhibition and I looked around and I said, I love that chair and I love that lamp.And that's the most gorgeous ceramics, you know, but they're all made for humans. And it was like, for me, it was like a visceral change. It was like in this time where we've got overshoot, we've got climate change, you know, like I thought I can actually work and make work in ceramics that actually supports threatened species.And I was like, whoa, that's amazing, you know. And so from that, I thought, well, what else can I do in this space? You know, this is actually the work that I was meant to do. And I don't see, I can't see, like now I say I don't make for humans anymore, like, which is actually a sort of a dangerous to be funding and what have you. But this is actually, you know, and I've got the privilege to be able to work with these scientific teams and be invited to work on projects in habitat and species support.And it all evolves around that idea of care. You know, at the same time, I guess I was reading books like by Michael McCarthy PERSON, who's an English NORP ecologist and writer. And he wrote this book called The Moths Most Snowstorm WORK_OF_ART, where he wrote about the idea of like when he used to drive, when he was younger, in the countryside,and there was so many moths that it was like a snowstorm in his headlights. And now that doesn't exist, you know, writers like David Abram PERSON, who writes about animism, and then the way that we've located ourselves outside the ecosystem, you know, like we're in this economic ecosystem, and we put everything ourselves outside the ecosystem, you know, like we're in this economic

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ecosystem and we put everything else into the ecosystem of the other species, whilst we don't

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even see ourselves as animals, you know, and now we're probably the most powerful animal on the top of most ecosystems, but we don't even locate ourselves there. So this was sort of the reading that I was doing. And this is sort of pretty much what underpins my work is that I believe that all species deserve to thrive. Man, what a statement. I think you're right that people

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don't even consider not only our role in the ecosystem, but the marine ecosystem exists. Because I really do think, like boats, like let's think about the chain mooring. What people are thinking about is the boat. They're not thinking about how that chain is destroying any environment that's within its sort of circumference.

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Yeah, yeah. And, you know, most people see the ocean. It looks like a blue, glassy, beautiful thing, you know. But then when you do actually spend time under the water and see the changes that have happened, it's, yeah, it can be really disturbing, you know. And, yeah, I guess that's what I've seen over a period of time.You know, I'm 58 now. So, like, I've been snored before I'm on.

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Well, I did want to bring into the conversation the other projects. I know you've done a lot of different projects, but could you talk maybe about the oyster habitat? Maybe that would be a good one to focus on as well. Yeah, I guess that came around, the oyster habitat, maybe that would be a good one to focus on as well?

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Yeah, I guess that came around, the oyster habitat came around with the project before, and I might sort of go there first. I started working, looking at little penguins, so adipulaminer, which is a little fairy penguin, and that penguin exists in the Great Southern Reef LOC, which I talked about. So in Tasmania GPE, we have a little penguin colony quite close by. And artificial burrows have been made for little penguins. They only come ashore to malt.They do a catastrophic malt where they lose all their feathers or they come ashore to breed and have their young. And so they would use sort of habitat on the shore for breeding areas and multing areas. And at those times they're quite vulnerable, you know, so dogs, cats like habitat loss. So I started working in Tasmania GPE with a little penguin ecologist. And then at that time, I was invited by the Jam Factory ORG, which is a major craft and design center in Adelaide in South Australia GPE,to exhibit. They knew about my spotted handfish work. So I started working with little penguin ecologists in South Australia GPE. And I asked the curator if I could exhibit a little penguin nesting module in the gallery. So she was absolutely, so I had this little spotted handfish work and I had this a little penguin nesting module, which is actually the first time that they've been madeout of ceramic. So traditionally there'd be artificial burrows are made out of wood or concrete. And one of the problems with little penguins is they get in South Australia was they're getting heat stress during the malt. So I usually start with a problem and you go, okay, so I can actually make in clay to put ventilation holes that will use prevailing winds and sea breezes,just like we ventilate our own homes. You know, I can look at you know that i would like how do you actually survey these and they used to put a like a like a wire up into the nest it's like oh well i'll just make a lid you know and so in ceramics you can do that's just like it's actually just really practical solutions and then you know if dogs would maybe um dig into the borough i made these things what i call sand ladders which is like a cattle grid you know, if dogs would maybe dig into the borough, I made these things what I call sand ladders, which is like a cattle grid, you know,so they can't actually dig the whole open. So a few innovations in artificial burrows. And I put it in the gallery and I offered it for sale. That's like you can't take it home, you know. And so I offered it for sale to gift into habitats. So that was the first time that I started working with philanthropy.So, and using philanthropy. And so now in that colony on Kangaroo Island LOC, there are six little penguin nesting modules who have all been gifted in that way. They're all, it's such a beautiful story that actually all the gifters are women. And like we sort of accidentally was like, oh, that one's Wendy and that one's Joe PERSON andwhatever. So we go sort of, I'll go to Wendy and you, I'll see you back at Joe PERSON. Such a beautiful story. And then all of them have been used for either nesting or malting during you know the last few years and you know sometimes you'll be on the shore and you ring up wendy and sort of say hey wendy you know like there's a little penguin in your borough and there's so this connection to community and once again bringing in the idea of care then i'd started started a project. I wanted to work at home. I started to work on the project in Tadmania GPE. And I applied for a rural arts grant and I invited,I'm like, why am I the only one working like this? Because I see it as a big design wedge. You know, like there's a place for artists and designers to work in designing for habitat and species support in collaboration with scientists. So I invited six other artists, a photographer and two young emerging artists to join me. And we got together with scientists in Tasmania and we designed and made 14 little penguin nesting modules.It was during COVID time. We exhibited them for four days. It was going to be two weeks, but it was like four days. And we sold 14 of them to be gifted into the derwent estuary. So now they're all in different penguin colonies in the derwent Estuary LOC. So now they're all in different penguin colonies in the Derwent estuary. And it was like when I was working in South Australia GPE in the little penguin colony,one of the guys from the Kangar Island Landscape Board ORG approached me and he knew about my spotted handfish work. We sat at a cafe. We looked at a bit of few designs and he said he wanted to work and do some some work on native oyster reef restoration and so we spoke about it i did a few prototypes and we started this project in south austral Australia off the coast of South Australia GPE, which is part of a, it's like one small part of a national initiative to restore native oyster reefs to to the coast of Australia. So I think we've lost 8 to 90% of native oyster reefs. So these aresubtitle oysters, like not on the shore. They're like 5 meters to 10 meters deep. And the species is called Austria and Gazi.

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The philanthropic, the philanthropical aspect of this is interesting because it allows people to feel like they're doing something. Like you talked about that your work is about care and you're kind of allowing other people to also care with their money, which I think a lot of times people want, they have money, they want to do something, but they don't know what to do.And I think there's also something about this as to where like a penguin is so cute. You know, like there's this, there's almost marketing of ecology that I found to be interesting. In the U.S. GPE, all of our zoos that are ecologically based, often will have mascots that are just whatever the cutest animal is. And it's kind of a shame that we need that, but I think we do. I think we need to like emotionally be able to attach to the animal to really care and to fund their rehabilitation, or at least their habitat rehabilitation.

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Yeah, I've got this, like, really, you know, so it's a really complex problem, the fact that we value one species over another because actually without, you know, ecosystems are joined, you know, without one species, another species can't persist. So like whilst we value, say, you know, in Australia koalas or the Tasmanian dev or kangaroos, but it's like we've got to actually value the whole ecosystem. So like with my projects, now what I do what I do is I write an intention statement. So for example, with a little penguin it might be we're going to come together to share knowledge and collaborate in the best interest of Little Penguin for the do at estuary. So that when we cometo do the project, other stuff might come up, like you might want to make cards or someone wants to make a movie, but is it in the best interest of little penguins? And so that actually scaffolds your project really well. And underneath that, like I put, I usually put values in,so it might be compassion for the human world, for the non-human world and ourselves, creativity. You know, like, so you have your values underneath the statement and then you have boundaries. So some things that, so then when you're working with science teams, they get to be able to trust that these artists are going to be working in alignment for these outcomes, these science

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outcomes. So it scaffolds the project and it gives everyone boundaries and some trust.

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And I pretty much do form my projects now, the ones that I desire.

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I like the idea that each project has a mission or a vision for impact. Can you talk about how, going back to the funding idea, how grant writing or local grants or international grants play into this? Because that's a whole other beyond the philanthropy part, that's a whole other sort of opportunity for funding.

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You know, I've been funded in different ways, I guess, with the spotted handfish work. That was a commission from the CSI Road FAC. And then the work that I've done after that, I've either, you know, like I could actually locate myself outside the gallery system and not do that. But I actually quite like putting my work into galleries because what I feel like it elevates the science and it elevates yourcollaborators work to a different audience that they're not generally getting you know so you know those people that come into art galleries and what have you are actually learning about these species and it's part of that sort of learning. And it gives them the opportunity to become a philanthropist of art and science, which is really exciting.But so part of my work is funded by philanthropy, but I also apply for grants. So I've had for the native oyster reef restoration project in South Australia GPE. That was an Australia Council grant, so they're called Creative Australia ORG now. But it's pretty astonishing that a big arts body like that would fund an artist to make, so I made a thousand razorfish shell form, so a shell form to go into the marine environment,to be working with scientists and researchers for a native oyster reef restoration project. You know, I sort of think this is the work about time. You know, in times where we've lost so much habitat, both in the marine environment, this is a possibility that I think artists and designers are well placed to use their skills to create work in habitat and species support. But it's just making those links and doing your researchand actually connecting with people who know about the environment and what outcomes they need. So it's designing. It's so interesting. The work's so interesting. Like it's, and then you get, once you start working on a design, then you can thenreiterate. You know, you get a feedback from the environment. You get a feedback from the scientists. And then you can redesign and make the work better.

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I wanted to end thinking about how this has changed your aesthetic goals, because what's been unsaid, but I think this might be true for you is that as a young artist, you are making the work for you and for human beings. Now you're making work for species that are never going to thank you. They're never going to talk to you. They're humans, unless they're the divers of the scientists, are never even going to see the work unless there's an exhibition of that specific body of work.So how has this changed your aesthetics, but also just your goals in general as an artist? changed your aesthetics, but also just your goals in general as an artist?

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I used to work in Porsalum FAC. Like I used to, yeah, I guess, you know, for me, and it might sound a bit trite, but it's taken the whole ego out of it. It's like it's not about me. This is not about me. And I look at my children, like I've got two children, children they're 23 and 21 and I want them to live in a world that's biodiverse you know to have that sort of experience um of the world and even nowum we we talk about a thing called shifting baselines it's like what's normal what was normal for me in triabuna bay years ago was I would be out in my dinghy and the whole surface of the water would be flipping with fish and that doesn't exist anymore. But young people might think that that is now normal. It's like the shifting baseline of what we think is normal. And for me, I just think I'm not terribly interested in like in you know the coffeetable ascetic anymore I think we've got enough we're in overshoot and this is the time like we've got this like window now that every all of us can do things a little bit differently and for me I've made this shift that this is this is the work that I want to do. And like, I'm super lucky because I work in clay. And plays just happens to be a really good material to work in this way. And so I think that's sort of the best way that I can answer it,is that it's not about me. And because it's not about me, it gives me a lot of freedom. I can ask for philanthropy. I can ask for grants. And like I'm super passionate about supporting those scientists and researchers who are working at the pointy end of threatened species.And so it feels great to be part of a team and to collaborate in this way and to learn from them. And, you know, they really, you know, that's the other thing that's really profound is their care and their responsibility. You know, like if your responsibility is a threatened species that's next step is extinct in the wild, that's a pretty big thing. And even, you know, caring about them is a

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really important part of the project. To wrap up, can you leave your website and also social media so people can see these things that we've been talking about. Yeah, yeah, because there must have them underwater or somewhere.

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Yeah, so jane Bamford.com is PERSON my website.

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And on Instagram, I'm Jane Bamford PERSON underscore ceramics.

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Well, thanks so much, Jane PERSON.

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This has been a real pleasure.

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I really appreciate the work you're doing.

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So thanks for doing it.

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Yeah, thanks so much for the invitation to come and chat about it. Ben PERSON, it's been great to meet you.

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I'd like to thank Jane PERSON for coming on the show. Before I talked to her, I had never really thought about someone actually putting ceramics into the environment as a way to heal the ecosystem.

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So I appreciate the work that she's doing. And I also wanted to say this episode pairs well with an earlier series I did just a few months ago on sustainable ceramics, including episode 501, where I talked to members of Clay Matters, and 502 where I talked to Yulia Maklouk PERSON about understanding the carbon footprint of ceramics. Before we go, I'd like to thank today's sponsors.That's the Rosenfeld Collection of Functional Ceramic Art ORG and Bray Clay. If you'd like to be a sponsor on one of our shows, you can get in touch at brickyardnetwork.org ORG. I'll be back next week with another episode.

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Thank you all for tuning in.

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If you'd like more information

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on the artists on the show, or if you'd like more information about the workshops and events that I'll be having in the next couple months, you can follow me on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook under Carter Pottery ORG. Another great way to support the show is to leave me a comment on iTunes ORG.To do that, search Tales of a Red Clay Rambler under iTunes ORG podcasts, and you'll find a page that's linked to our show. Thank you guys for the support.

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This podcast is a production of the network, an extension of the Archie Bray Foundation for the Ceramic Arts ORG. To find out more about our lineup of ceramic podcasts, visit brickyardnetwork.org.