167. The Courier (2020)

Speaker 10s - 57.38s

POMAYOR. Hello and welcome to spy hards WORK_OF_ART podcast where your hosts go deep undercover into the world of spy movies to decipher which films make the knock list. But remember, this information is strictly for your ears only. I'm Agent Scott PERSON. Tell them, I'm in my chair. And I'm Cam PERSON the provocateur. What an entrance.

Speaker 057.64s - 58.66s

Welcome to the show, Cam PERSON.

Speaker 158.74s - 76.96s

Thank you. Thank you. I'm in my chair. You are. You clearly are in your chair. We've got a great film to talk about this week and a very great guest joining us. But before we get there, we need to induct our latest spy hard's die hard. Now, if you don't know how to become one, Cam PERSON, tell the people.

Speaker 077.52s - 100.22s

You can become a spy hard's die hard by leaving a five-star review on Apple Podcasts ORG and telling us what you enjoy about the show or what you don't. If you want to sneak something in under a five-star review on Apple Podcasts ORG and telling us what you enjoy about the show or what you don't. If you want to sneak something in under a five-star review, that's okay to us. Those five-stars still rack up. So that's all fine. But yeah, we read your review on the air and then I give you your special SpyHards DieHard's PRODUCT code name.

Speaker 1100.22s - 125.32s

Well, here is your latest inductee, folks. This one comes from the United States Apple podcast. The username is ACR 1066. Does something happen in 1066? I don't have a clue. The Battle of Hastings. The Battle of Hastings was 1066, I think. I don't know what that is, so I'll take your word for it. Well, there's a battle that happened in Hastings. We have a street called Hastings in Vancouver GPE, so...

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Which was probably named after Hastings GPE,

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where there was a battle in 1066.

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But that's not what this lovely person writes in to say.

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They say,

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A must listen the day it arrives, five stars.

Speaker 1141.06s - 158.98s

When I see a episode drop of Spy Hearts ORG, it immediately goes to the top of the list for a listen. I thought I was a spy film fan prior to listening, but now I know there is such a deeper world. Thanks Scott and Cam PERSON for sharing so many hidden gems.

Speaker 0159.52s - 171.12s

Thank you so much. I am just tickled at the fact that someone sees the adventures of Tartu GPE pop up in their podcast feed and is like, that is a must listen right this second. He's the mystery man of the Balkans LOC.

Speaker 1171.24s - 177.22s

How could you know? Exactly. Right. And so, yes, thank you very much for that very kind review.

Speaker 0177.98s - 186.64s

And as for your code name, I mean, it's obviously going to tie into this week's film. And what else could it be? But Ironbark ORG.

Speaker 1187.36s - 189.28s

It had to be Ironbark ORG, didn't it?

Speaker 0189.3s - 192s

What a great name that they didn't use to name this film.

Speaker 1192.64s - 193.12s

Exactly.

Speaker 0193.44s - 197.52s

So that is a pretty distinct and memorable code name, I think.

Speaker 1197.9s - 209.22s

Absolutely. Enjoy your new code name. Use it in public. Change your name legally. Make it your passport. I don't know.But do something with it because it's a special thing that only you have now, Iron Bark PRODUCT.

Speaker 0209.82s - 213.48s

Maybe don't travel to Russia and mention your code name is Iron Bark PRODUCT, though.

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That might not go great.

Speaker 0215.04s - 217.8s

Yeah, we don't really want that to be on us, of course.

Speaker 1217.9s - 256.72s

This is not real advice. We're just two fictional podcast spies out in the world, you know. Exactly, yes. Exactly. Well, get your five-star Apple Podcast reviews in to Apple Podcasts ORG and we'll read them out. You'll become a spy hard, too, and you'll be the next I embark.But without further ado, let's get to the review. Okay, here we are, folks. It's time to talk about this week's film. But before we get there, we need to introduce our very special guest, making his triumphant second appearance on SpyHard ORG's podcast. We pulled him out of the gulag.

Speaker 2257.1s - 277.12s

It is Mr. Ian Sanders PERSON from the Cold War Conversations podcast. Hello, sir. How are you? I'm great. Thank you very much. Honoured to have a return fixture with you. I must have done all right in the previous chat we had about Bridge of Spies WORK_OF_ART, but looking forward to diving into the courier.

Speaker 1278.24s - 285.82s

It's an interesting one because there's a lot of connective tissue between the two films. That's one of the reasons why your name popped out in my head when we were looking at tackling this film.

Speaker 2286.44s - 290.22s

And obviously your podcast ties in very beautifully to this too.

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But also, I just think it's been a little while, and we had a good time last time, and I wanted to sort of check in and see how you'd been as well. It's been a couple of years since we did Bridge of Spies WORK_OF_ART. What's been new with Cold War Conversations?

Speaker 2303.34s - 305.96s

Wow, a couple of years ago, that long ago.

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Cold War Conversations EVENT has been going from Strength to Strength now

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at something like 333 episodes.

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Wow.

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Loads of interesting guests that I've had on recently.

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I had a East German NORP tank commander

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and trying to get more content from

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the other side of the hill, the Warsaw Pact ORG countries.

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Obviously getting hold of Russians NORP now is not so easy, but there's all those other satellite countries to have a go at. And in fact, tomorrow I've got a really good spy story. I've got the story of John Vassel PERSON, who was worked in the Admiralty FAC in London and was recruited by the KGB ORG,or coerced to work for the KGB whilst he was at the British Embassy in Moscow GPE. So no shortage of spy stories over at Cold War Conversations EVENT.

Speaker 1367.14s - 373.74s

And just for those who maybe haven't tuned into the Bridge of Spies episode, what can people expect over on Cold War EVENT conversations?

Speaker 2374.54s - 425.52s

Well, it's interviews with people who lived through and experienced the Cold War. So I do have interviews with KGB spies, people who work for the Stasi, as well as CIA ORG. British people who work for British intelligence are still very reticent to speak on the record. But there's a wide range of stories there. I do quite a number of author interviews. In fact, my interview next Saturday is with an author who's written a book about John Vassel PERSON. But I have got an interview which I haven't published yet, which is with a guy who, somebody who was a friend of Rudolph Abel PERSON,

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who was the Bridge of Spies WORK_OF_ART Spy. And he was a good friend of his.

Speaker 2436.32s - 469.18s

He was a fellow artist who worked with him at the same artist's studio. And it's a fascinating interview. And I did record that one on video. And at one point in the interview, said, oh, would you like to see some of the paintings I did record that one on video. And at one point in the interview, he said, oh, would you like to see some of the paintings I did of Willie PERSON? Because his real name was, sorry, no, what was the, the name? I can't remember the, I can't remember the name that he was, that he had at the time.And he turned up with this portrait. He came back and showed me this portrait of Rudolf Abel PERSON in the artist's studio. Unbelievable.

Speaker 1469.78s - 498.76s

That's crazy. It's always great when guests come prepared with things like that. I'll never forget the time we had Nikki Naudet PERSON on the show who's a sort of master stunt man who did the hand-to-hand combat scene with Matt Damon and Jason, in the Bourne Identity WORK_OF_ART. And he just, in the middle of the conversation, just pulled out the push dagger that he tried to kill Jason Bourne with. He's like, yeah, I took it from the shoot.Great, cool. What a weird thing to bring. But, hey, we got to see it. Brilliant. Brilliant. Yeah.

Speaker 2499.04s - 501.32s

Yeah, you never know what a guest is going to turn up with.

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And you never know what you're going to get on Cold War EVENT conversations. Right. Exactly. Well, you're always going to get on the Cold War Conversations ORG. Right. Exactly.

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Well, you're always going to get quality.

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That's what you can be.

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You're damn right.

Speaker 1510.22s - 522.44s

And I was actually going to ask, you know, Ian PERSON, you have now over 300 episodes. Are there any, like, stories or interview subjects that are kind of on your bucket list, like the ones that are still kind of keeping you up at night. Like, I need to track this down.

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Mikhail Gorbachev PERSON was on my bucket list until he moved on.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Lech Valencia, the leader of the Free Trade Union in Poland in 1980. I'd love to be able to speak to him, although I don't think he speaks English NORP, so that would be through a translator. I've been watching this new series on Netflix, Turning Point, The Cold War and the Bomb WORK_OF_ART.

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And there's some great interviews on there.

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And one of the people they've interviewed is Gorbachev PERSON's translator. Wow.

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Okay.

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Who you often see in a lot of the footage.

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And I've got an interview with the director of that documentary series, which should be

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coming out next Wednesday.

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And one of the questions are going to ask him is can he get me in contact with Gorbachev PERSON's translator?

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If you don't ask you don't get.

Speaker 2573.06s - 611.54s

Yeah, yeah. But in some ways the stories that I really like are the unknown ones. I mean, it's not unusual for me to have a guest say something along the lines of,you know what? I've not told anybody this story before. I've not shared these details, even with my family. And it's amazing, you know, when I started doing the podcast, I didn't really think how powerful and how moved I would be by some of the stories that I record. And it's a real honor to, you know, record these and share them with the wider audienceand, you know, ensure their preserve posterity.

Speaker 1612.26s - 661.88s

It's an interesting one because I think when you last came on the show and when we've had chats outside of recording episodes, you sort of postulated Cold War Conversations EVENT as preserving a slice of history. And that's what the show does. And it really actually changed at least my perspective on how we do our interviews as well, because it's all well and good speaking to people who worked on, like Denise Richards were mentionedearlier, it worked on a Bond PERSON film. She's done plenty of press interviews and most of those stories we got, most of them had been published before. But there's a lot of the screenwriters we've had or directors that really have never been approached about the work that they've done, or they've done much more famous pieces, but we're asking them about a spy film they did very early in their career. No one ever talks to them about. And so I always like to approach it now as us preserving their stories, because they're not getting told either until we have those

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conversations. Absolutely. I mean, you're preserving movie history with every interview you do because, you know, no interview is the same.

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And, you know, you're probably a bit like me.

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You know, I'm always waiting for a guest to say something along the lines of, I'd not thought about that. Oh, yeah, let me tell you about this. And you think, this is great because this is unrehearsed. They've not done this before and they're telling us something new or some new insight that perhaps they haven't shared before.

Speaker 1693.06s - 704.76s

That's the goal. That's the dream. But we've brought you back for a very special assignment. You teased it earlier with the name of the film, but I'm going to throw it to Cam PERSON for the official announcement. What are we talking about this week, Cam PERSON?

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Yes, we are talking about The Courier, starring Benedict Cumberbatch. It's listed as a 2020 film, but that's because it played in some film festivals. It was actually

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released in 2021. Okay. I thought we'd covered it in 2020, but I guess it was a 2021 declassified

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episode. It was, yeah. Interesting. Okay, well, if you haven't seen The Courier WORK_OF_ART,

Speaker 1728.36s - 768.16s

it's on most, I think a lot of PVOD around the world. It is here in the UK GPE, but here is your synopsis. And this might be the shortest synopsis I've ever read. Wow, this is literally two lines. Here we go. The Courier, based on the incredible true story of a Welsh NORP businessman turned spy.And that's it? That's it. Okay. Well, there you have it. Let me see if I... Oh, wow, it's actually even shorter on IMDB ORG.I'll give you a little bit more. Businessman Greville Wynn is asked by a Russian source to try and help put an end to the Cuban NORP missile crisis.

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Okay, at least that's a little specific about the time period and the events that it transpires around. I guess so. It's a tease.

Speaker 2776.54s - 788.04s

Yeah, I wouldn't say that's necessary true. Because the Cuban NORP missile crisis hasn't really happened at the point that the... But anyway, I'm being pedantic.

Speaker 1788.4s - 792.42s

It's okay, we didn't write these synopsies. No, I know. None of us are to blame.

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We can blame the person who wrote them. But I did just sort of say before,

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we did cover this film on a declassified episode many moons ago back in 2021. So we do have our initial thoughts there if you want to travel back and hear some of those. So I won't belabor the point with Cam PERSON and I talking about our first experiences with the Courier. But I am interested to hear from you, Ian PERSON, as you are the master of all things Cold War EVENT. Did you stumble upon this film when it came out? And so what were

Speaker 2818.28s - 829.26s

your thoughts of it back then? I had somehow picked up on the fact they were going to release it. But at the time I picked up on it fact they were going to release it. But at the time I picked up on it, the film was called Iron Bart PRODUCT.

Speaker 3844.34s - 849.4s

That was the original title, which was the code name, I think, for the information that the KGB or the GRU spy was passing over was Iron Bark PRODUCT. And And I think that probably the marketing department decided that's not,

Speaker 2849.52s - 861.8s

it doesn't really grab people. We need something a bit more enticing. And so went for the courier and probably people thought it was about people on bikes delivering packages around London.

Speaker 1861.8s - 869.82s

I mean, if you go by like literal translations, iron bark to me just sounds like a really bad Ironman WORK_OF_ART spin-off. Yeah.

Speaker 0870.02s - 878.68s

Well, I also think like Ironbark ORG makes a much better hashtag for online, like hashtag Ironbark ORG versus hashtag the courier. Yeah.

Speaker 1879.06s - 905.6s

I suppose if you're going for Instagramable names, but yeah, I embarked to me just sounds like a kid's film I wouldn't want to watch. They obviously weren't thatinterested in pursuing Gen Z. No, I don't think this film is aimed at Gen Z, or Gen Alpha now. Sure. Well, Cam PERSON, I'm curious.I need to know, how did we get the message, how did we get the courier?

Speaker 0906.14s - 913.62s

Right. So we're going to keep the behind the scenes a little bit less in depth than usual.

Speaker 1913.84s - 916.4s

And maybe Scott PERSON, you want to explain to the audience why that is?

Speaker 0916.9s - 922.06s

Oh, you've really thrown me under the bus there because I wasn't prepared to make this sweeping statement.

Speaker 1922.06s - 925.58s

But this week we're having quite the curious special.

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We're doing two Spymaster interviews for you. First and foremost, later this week, we're joined

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by the screenwriter of this film, Mr. Tom O'Connor PERSON, and he gives us the complete behind the scenes of how this film was envisioned and brought to life by himself. And later this week, we are also joined by the director of the film, Mr. Dominic Cook PERSON, who expands on that story even more and gives us the complete behind the scenes, beat-by-beat breakdown of how the Courier ORG was made. So that's probably why Cam PERSON is saving his voice,not giving you the full rundown of how we got here.

Speaker 0962.82s - 979.18s

Yes, and those interviews have been recorded already. So we know how in- depth they are in their explanations as to the journey and the evolution of this story. So they can actually state the facts versus, you know, my research version. So that'll be very good listening, I think. I think so.

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And they're both very passionate about the film. They both put a lot of work into it. So I'd recommend if you're a fan of the Courier or a fan of sort of Cold War movies, check them both out later this week.

Speaker 0989.86s - 994.78s

Yes, definitely. I'll definitely be listening to those. I mean, it was an absolute pleasure to take

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part in them. And so, yeah, I think this is going to be some great stuff for the listeners.

Speaker 0999.84s - 1005.06s

It's interesting. We haven't done sort of the double bill since the Avengers WORK_OF_ART. I think back in

Speaker 11005.06s - 1019.4s

2021 when we tackled the 90s film doing the screenwriter and the director in the same week. So it's been a while since we've done that. Yeah. No kidding. No kidding. That's an odd pairing. Three episodes in the week DATE. Yeah, it is. It is. The Avengers and the courier. It's got the

Speaker 01019.4s - 1060.16s

both set around the 60s. So they've got that going for them. I mean, one doesn't feature Sean Connery making puns about getting wet. That's true, that's true. I thought that was very strange when that happened in the courier. But anyways. So the courier or iron bark as it began sort of its life was written by Tom O'Connor PERSON,who Scott PERSON mentioned earlier. And it was pretty early in his career. He'd done in 2012 an action film called Fire with Fire with Josh Duomo, Rosario Dawson and Bruce Willis PERSON. And I'd never really heard too much about this movie. I think it was maybe a direct-to-video release because it didn't play in theaters here, at least in my neck of the woods.

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But it was actually 2017s, the hitman's bodyguard that put O'Connor PERSON on the map. And obviously that movie spawned a sequel as well. But it was really following up the hitman's bodyguard that led into the courier.

Speaker 01074.26s - 1082.3s

And so I'm going to let him talk all about how that actually happened in the interview. But that's basically some context as to who the writer of the film is.

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And notably an American NORP writer as well, which you might not think watching the courier.

Speaker 01087.44s - 1094.02s

So he'll talk a bit about that as well. And perhaps how that informed the storytelling that transpires in the film.

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Yeah, because it's an interesting thing we get into an interview, but we can just talk about for a second, is this film doesn't feel particularly Americanized NORP. I mean, using it as a counterpoint, say, Bridge of Spies WORK_OF_ART, that feels like a very American film. This feels like it's from the same mold of things like Ticka Taylor's PERSON Soul, which actually wasn't directed by a Brit, but still has that sort of British pessimism to it.Sure. Yeah. Would you bring every single week? Right. That's the magic. That's right.

Speaker 21123.22s - 1135.46s

That's right. That's right. I've rained down on you. Well, it's a very British story. I mean, there's very few American NORP characters in it. And you don't really get much more British than the Greville PERSON win character.

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I mean, the name alone.

Speaker 21137.7s - 1137.94s

Yeah.

Speaker 11138.74s - 1151.74s

Yeah. Is it a gentleman's club or whatever they used to call those things at the beginning? He's playing golf. He is schmoozing people with port and brandy. And it feels very much of that ilk that I will never be part of.

Speaker 01153.14s - 1154.28s

No, with that attitude.

Speaker 11155.14s - 1159.92s

So the movie was directed by Dominic Cook PERSON, who will also be obviously joining us on the show.

Speaker 01159.92s - 1212.46s

But he's an English NORP writer-director who started out just as a TV runner and then kind of found his place, which was in theater. And he started a theater company called Panoptic, and he ran that for two years, and then became an assistant director at the Royal Shakespearean Company ORG. And going forward, bounced between the Royal Shakespearean Company and the Royal Court Theater ORG, and over the course of his career, has won five Olivier Awards for productions that he did of The Crucible WORK_OF_ART, Ma Rainey's Black Bottom and Follies WORK_OF_ART.And he's currently, I believe, adapting Follies WORK_OF_ART for the big screen. It's going to be his latest film, if it happens. He was also actually in 2014 appointed the Commander of the Order of the British Empire for his work in drama. So a very, very esteemed and respected theater director here. And I will just jump in

Speaker 11212.46s - 1217.92s

because I can hear you all writing emails to us now. It's the Royal Shakespeare Company. Cam PERSON is just wrong.

Speaker 01218.28s - 1232.14s

That's embarrassing as an English major. It really is. You love Shakespeare PERSON. You've got his entire works in your house. I don't think I've read an entire Shakespeare PERSON all the way through. And I know that. We did go to the globe, though, when I was in London. I almost fell asleep. Moving on.

Speaker 11232.24s - 1233.24s

Yes, I recall. Yes.

Speaker 01235.56s - 1250.04s

Dominic Cook PERSON, in terms of directing TV and film, he worked on a national theater live production of Comedy of Errors WORK_OF_ART, which would have been a televised version, or not a televised, but a version of the play that he would stage that was actually shown in theaters.

Speaker 31250.76s - 1272.46s

He also did three episodes of the Hollow Crown WORK_OF_ART series, and then led into a 2017 drama he made called On Chesnail Beach WORK_OF_ART, starring Shersha Ronan and Billy Howie PERSON. And that movie didn't make too much of a mark, but that led into the Courier ORG, which was, I think, a little more noticed when it came out.

Speaker 11273.12s - 1283.96s

I think they certainly wanted it to be more notice when it came out. I think we'll get into that conversation in a minute. But this film is very much a COVID-19 victim.

Speaker 01284.68s - 1294.78s

Sure, yes. I will say, though, like, the courier, there was awareness in North America LOC about it, whereas I would say on Chesnail Beach LOC didn't really cross the pond.

Speaker 11295.36s - 1299.58s

I don't think it crossed many ponds or roads, because I've never heard of it either.

Speaker 01299.9s - 1301.04s

Okay, well, that's fair.

Speaker 11301.54s - 1304.76s

Sorry, is that spelled C-H-E-S-N-I-L?

Speaker 21305s - 1309.68s

It is, yes. Is that not Chesel Beach GPE? Oh, oh.

Speaker 11309.96s - 1318.44s

Oh, yes. Come on, Ian PERSON. Get in there. It's correcting Cam Day PERSON. This episode is now brought to you by correcting Cam PERSON.

Speaker 01319.44s - 1330.12s

You know, one day I'm going to be able to correct you guys on, like, Canadian NORP pronunciations for something or other. You guys don't,'t like spell things weirdly. We have stuff like Worcestershire sauce.

Speaker 11330.38s - 1332.54s

It's true. Yeah. You'll never have that.

Speaker 01332.98s - 1339.5s

Nor would you want it. No, we do have like places like Tuasen GPE. So there's that, you know, some interesting spellings.

Speaker 11339.9s - 1340.46s

Nanaimo GPE.

Speaker 01340.62s - 1342.36s

That's a weird one. Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Speaker 11343.4s - 1369.06s

So, yeah, as we said, this movie began its life as iron bark and then was changed to the courier. And we'll get into the reasons for that with actually the writer in particular. So in terms of the production budget, I couldn't find it anywhere online. But I would not have been big budget. It, as Scott PERSON said, was released during the pandemic. So when we actually reviewed it on the show, it was because it was a on-demand release.

Speaker 01369.4s - 1371.38s

It was released in a few theaters in the UK GPE.

Speaker 11372.02s - 1405.68s

Over here in North America LOC, not so much. And so domestically, in North America, it did 6.6 million international, 19.4, for a worldwide total of $26 million worldwide. Again, people were not really rushing out to theaters at this point in time. So that really is no comment whatsoever on the movie's quality or whether people actually enjoyed it or not. And for that year, it landed number 101 atthe box office between Chaos Walking, which was the Daisy Ridley Tom Holland PERSON sci-fi film. That film has a hilarious history, by the way.

Speaker 01405.76s - 1417.42s

If anyone wants to look up Chaos Walking WORK_OF_ART, that film was shot in like 2016, I think, and it went through so many reshoots. They tried to bin it. Yeah, a funny film to read about, not a fun film to watch.

Speaker 11417.84s - 1420.36s

Yeah, and this landed one spot above Spencer PERSON,

Speaker 01420.74s - 1425.24s

which was the Princess Diana story with Kristen Stewart PERSON. Oh, okay, right. Yeah, very dark with Kristen Stewart PERSON. Oh, okay.

Speaker 11425.48s - 1426.24s

Right.

Speaker 01426.6s - 1432.12s

Yeah. Very dark and depressing film. I saw it in theaters. Poor Bedfellows right there, I'd say. Yeah, not exactly a great pairing.

Speaker 11432.92s - 1468.08s

And the top three for the year. Number one was Spider-Man No Way Home WORK_OF_ART. Number two was the battle at Lake Changjin LOC. And number three was High Mom WORK_OF_ART. The latter to our Chinese NORP productions that, you know, obviously box office was a little outside the norm when it came to the pandemic era where Chinese NORP theaters were showing a lot of moviesand actually having audiences show up. Not really the case in North America and much of the UK and Europe LOC. For sure. I mean, just speaking to that sort of COVID-19 situation for a moment, I don't think this film would have pulled me back into theat theaters even if it was shown around here.

Speaker 31468.24s - 1480.34s

I think my first film back was Tenet WORK_OF_ART during COVID-19, but that was a big marquee release that demanded to be seen on the big screen. I wouldn't say the Courier ORG necessarily has to be seen on the big screen.

Speaker 01480.82s - 1487.6s

No, and also, it took quite a while to lure back older moviegoers who would have been more of

Speaker 31487.6s - 1491.46s

the prime audience for this film. Like, you're not going to get as many 20-year-olds showing up to

Speaker 11491.46s - 1497.16s

see the career, but like they had a real problem for, it was about two years, putting out, say,

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R-rated films or more serious dramas and actually having anyone show up. Well, just throwing it to you in

Speaker 11503.56s - 1508.54s

for a second, do you recall your first trip back to the theatres after COVID EVENT?

Speaker 21509.2s - 1516.94s

I don't, actually. I'm not a big moviegoer. I'm much more comfortable watching it on a big screen at home, to be honest.

Speaker 01517.72s - 1520.36s

The courier may well have tempted me out.

Speaker 11520.48s - 1527.04s

I think I'm part of that demographic that Cam PERSON described there. So

Speaker 01527.04s - 1532.18s

the trailer I thought was really strong with it. And I was

Speaker 21532.18s - 1535.84s

seriously thinking about going and seeing it at the pictures and then it came on

Speaker 31535.84s - 1539.02s

pay-per-view and I thought, you know, why bother?

Speaker 01540.1s - 1543.72s

Did you, actually that's a good question because I was sent

Speaker 11543.72s - 1546.8s

or Cam PERSON I did the class of episode so we were sent screeners of the film.

Speaker 21546.88s - 1547.78s

We didn't have to pay for it.

Speaker 11547.82s - 1550.26s

But Ian PERSON, did you find yourself paying for it in the end?

Speaker 31550.28s - 1552.02s

Did you do the sort of PVOD system?

Speaker 11552.4s - 1558.1s

I think it was, it was either on Netflix or Amazon Prime ORG, so I'd already got those

Speaker 31558.1s - 1558.62s

subscriptions.

Speaker 21558.62s - 1562.12s

So it wasn't a, you know, pay-per-view per se.

Speaker 11562.32s - 1565.86s

It was already in the bundle for that particular channel.

Speaker 31566.22s - 1567.58s

There was that sort of moment, wasn't there?

Speaker 11567.62s - 1570.48s

But the P-V-O-D PRODUCT was really important because you had stuff like,

Speaker 21570.58s - 1574.82s

there was a couple of Disney films that went straight to PVOD, like Black Widow WORK_OF_ART, I think, did that,

Speaker 11574.96s - 1575.64s

day and date?

Speaker 01576.14s - 1587.68s

Black Widow WORK_OF_ART did simultaneous. Yeah. Mulan WORK_OF_ART, I don't remember if that was simultaneous. They may have just gone PVOD with Mulan WORK_OF_ART. I think they did. I think that was straight to Disney Plus ORG, but you had to pay money for it.

Speaker 11587.84s - 1588.14s

Yeah.

Speaker 01588.3s - 1594.64s

And the thing about the Courier ORG is, I would guess it probably wasn't hugely successful on PVOD.

Speaker 11595.18s - 1636s

It feels like a movie that needs more of like an Amazon or Netflix ORG or something, like a streaming model, to really grab eyeballs. I just don't know like when you present a list of movies that people pay for, if there is likely to buy something like The Courier versus a Mulan WORK_OF_ART or a Black Widow. Well, it doesn't have that sort of water cooler urgency to it. Like, it doesn't feel like you have to see it. Like, back when Marvel ORG was important, for instance,where you had to see the latest Marvel film in the first weekend, so you can go to work the next week and talk about, oh, guess what Thor PERSON did in CG blah blah blah blah it doesn't have that moment necessarily so yeah maybeit being on Netflix or Amazon ORG it is its perfect home

Speaker 01636s - 1645.76s

and you just see Benedict Cumberbatch and you're going to have a certain segment of audience members who are going to go oh I'd like to see things because I like him it's the penguins guy exactly exactly yes but it's interesting you know going to go, oh, I'd like to see things because I like him. It's the penguins guy. Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 11646.02s - 1655.04s

Yes. But it's interesting, you know, I think this is like our second time doing it declassified than going into a full review after that.

Speaker 01655.24s - 1656.86s

I think so, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 11657.54s - 1680.88s

It's interesting to see sort of the conversation continue about this film. People have sort of caught up with it since. It had that sort of lull on release because of things like COVID EVENT and the world ending and bits and bobs like that. But I think since then, spy movie fans have caught up with this film because, I mean, I put out a post about the other day and had a lot of warm responses to it.A lot of people really, really enjoyed this film. Yeah.

Speaker 01681.08s - 1701.52s

I mean, it definitely is, I think, more out there. Even I picked up the Blu-ray at my local library and they had several copies. So there's a segment of the audience that's just going to pick it up that way as well. It feels like there's a lot of movies that you and I have covered on declassified that were perhaps streaming releases or whatever that just disappeared down the void.

Speaker 11701.78s - 1705.7s

Whereas I feel like the career actually still is getting play.

Speaker 31706.24s - 1710.68s

Without remorse. What happened to that film? It's getting a sequel, apparently, so who knows?

Speaker 11711.58s - 1718s

I can't wait for that. But Ian, I'll just ask you then, because obviously you're part of the Cold War EVENT world.

Speaker 01718s - 1724.96s

I know obviously the podcast deals with the real life situations and spies, but you have a great Facebook group.

Speaker 11727.02s - 1727.08s

A lot of conversations happening there and a lot Facebook group, a lot of conversations happening there,

Speaker 01728.58s - 1729.12s

and a lot of listeners and a lot of engagement.

Speaker 11732.72s - 1734.22s

Does this film ever sort of pop up in conversation when you're talking about Cold War EVENT films?

Speaker 21743.2s - 1751.34s

It doesn't, especially, it's generally not that much discussion about films in our group. I can't remember when this, you know, whether during COVID EVENT, I'm sure we would have discussed it because I would have put the trailer up in the,

Speaker 31751.34s - 1761.4s

in the Facebook group. And I think it's a good depiction of that time. As with any Hollywood

Speaker 21761.4s - 1769.68s

movie, they take shortcuts in order to smooth out timelines and just make it easier to follow for a general audience.

Speaker 31771.22s - 1782.46s

But, you know, I always think with any of these sort of films, as well as Bridge of Spies WORK_OF_ART, is that if it gets people more interested in this period of history, then that's a good thing.

Speaker 21782.46s - 1788.96s

You know, even if they take some liberties with the story, people will generally, if they're

Speaker 31788.96s - 1793.94s

fascinated by, Google it more and do further investigation and actually find out more about

Speaker 01793.94s - 1797.34s

the story and hopefully end up on Cold War EVENT conversations as well.

Speaker 21797.84s - 1800.98s

Well, I'll be interesting to hear from your listeners what they think of the film when

Speaker 11800.98s - 1824.44s

we put this episode out. It would be an interesting conversation, but a lot of people who have a lot of knowledge about what really happened, applying it to sort of this slightly heightened world of the film. And speaking of the Courier ORG, I think it's time to talk about the film. Cam PERSON and I have already sort of shared some of our thoughts.So, Ian, I want to throw it to you first. You're our guest. You've sat down, you've watched the Courier ORG for us. What do you think of the courier? I like it.

Speaker 21824.62s - 1826.38s

I think it's got a

Speaker 31826.38s - 1834.72s

really good period feel to it um i think the uh cumabatchers greville win i mean if you've actually

Speaker 21834.72s - 1865.46s

seen photos of greville win PERSON he he looks he looks the part i think he carries off from what i know of greville win and some of the tv footage or film footage there is of Greville Win PERSON speaking. He's done a lot of work around the character, as you would expect, with Benedict Cumberbatch PERSON. And he really goes in for the hardcore. I've been in a Soviet NORP prison for quite a few months later on on in the film which I'm sure

Speaker 01865.46s - 1868.2s

we'll discuss as well

Speaker 21868.2s - 1913.36s

but I think they've gone to a lot of effort to get the details right so the plane that he's the airliner that they use is aBritish airliner of that period a Vickers Viscount so that you know they haven't just used any old aircraft or a British airliner of that period, a Vickers Viscount PRODUCT, so that, you know, they haven't just used any old aircraft or taken shortcuts there. And generally, it covers the story really well. It follows more or less the storyline. There's a few bits that, as I said, it sort of abbreviates.But I really enjoyed it. And watching it another time, you know, watching it again, I thought, actually, this is even better

Speaker 01913.36s - 1921.58s

than what I thought it was the last time I watched it. Well, I had a question for you, Ian PERSON, because you've covered so many Cold War EVENT stories over the course of your podcast. Like,

Speaker 21921.58s - 1928.9s

how familiar were you with this story? I was quite familiar with it because I did do an episode on Penkovsky PERSON,

Speaker 31929.24s - 1933.48s

the GRU Soviet NORP spy.

Speaker 21933.6s - 1966.98s

So I was familiar with it. And also the story sort of starts in the same year as the shootdown of Gary Power PERSON. So as you said, Scott, there's a direct link with Bridge of Spies WORK_OF_ART here, because it's exactly the same period. You know, there's some bits that they abbreviate, because it's not always clear as to how Pemkovsky PERSON is sort of caught in the end.You know, you've got that surveillance of him. Yeah.

Speaker 01968.14s - 1971.62s

But the actual truth of the matter was

Speaker 21971.62s - 2005s

is that there was a British spy called George Blake that was working for the KGB and he revealed that somebody at the British embassy was actually MI6 ORG. So the Soviets NORP trailed this guy and his wife, and it turned out his wife was the person who was receiving the information from Penkovsky PERSON.She was basically wandering around Moscow GPE with her child in a pram. She'd meet up with Penkovsky PERSON, and he'd drop the documents into the pram. And I don't think that's apparent in the film. Penkovsky PERSON and he dropped the documents into the pram.

Speaker 02008.32s - 2009s

And I don't think that's apparent in the film.

Speaker 22010.08s - 2010.32s

No, it's interesting.

Speaker 02013.22s - 2023.92s

Like, there's definitely a movie you could make out of this story. There'd be much more of like a procedural or much more of like the fly on the wall observation of the events. And it's very like, I think when you watch the movie, very clear that they were much more

Speaker 32023.92s - 2030.18s

interested in the relationships than kind of the, even what could feel like the Wikipedia ORG greatest hits.

Speaker 22031.1s - 2048.76s

Yeah, because, I mean, it's a bit of a comedy of error. I mean, when Penkovsky first tries to contact the Americans, first of all, he basically approaches a couple of American students in Moscow and hands them a package and says take that to the U.S. Embassy FAC.

Speaker 02048.92s - 2051.14s

And of course, they're thinking, oh, we're being set up here.

Speaker 22052.06s - 2106.84s

But eventually one of them believes him and takes the package to the U.S. GPE embassy. The CIA ORG think it's a trick for quite some time. And then eventually they think, well, actually, yeah, let's try and do, try and contact this guy. They make a real mess of it. And then they get the British involved because they know the British are more experienced in running agents in Moscow GPE. And that's really where the downfall starts because obviously there's this leak within MI6 with George Blake PERSON,who then tells the Soviets about this person in the British Embassy who's working for MI6 ORG. But, yeah, I mean, the backstory, there's a load more detail that is a really interesting spy story in itself. So I would recommend people to, you know, look at that because there's a

Speaker 12106.84s - 2139.8s

really interesting story behind it. It's always tough when you've got a film based on real events, especially real events when we don't know all of the answers, because it's hidden behind all these closed doors of, you know, classified documents and things like that and people being scrubbed out of history because you kind of have to fill in the blanks yourself and I tip my hat to anyone who can bring a film inthat's this good in my book which I'll get to in a minute and it make it feel believable and realistic at the same time

Speaker 32139.8s - 2144.6s

but also entertaining and maybe I'll just sort of segue cam

Speaker 12144.6s - 2161.12s

if you don't mind, into my thoughts about it. Swing away. I do love this film. I had a lot of, I think I was moderately pleased of itwhen we first watched it, but this second time watching it, I think I, it's been a lot more time focusing on the character work

Speaker 32161.12s - 2182.2s

and how they build that up. And I think it's such a masterstroke to, because I know I could, you know, I'm not an expert like Ian PERSON is. Ian PERSON, you know the story very well. So you can kind of compare the reality to the fiction here and find out what is really happening and comparing and contrast.I don't know much about that side of the thing. So I'm looking at more as a piece of film.

Speaker 02182.2s - 2183.74s

You're an expert on Condor Man PRODUCT.

Speaker 12184.24s - 2185.28s

So unless he's throwing through the sky, then, you know. That's all I've got. more as a piece of film. You're an expert on Condor Man PRODUCT. So unless he's

Speaker 02185.28s - 2190s

throwing through the sky, then, you know. That's all I've got. Michael Crawford PERSON is the man,

Speaker 12190.08s - 2194.24s

but we're not here to talk about our flying, spying, deafifying man of the hour.

Speaker 02195.6s - 2204.48s

It's so smart to base this story on an every man. You know, he is your gateway into this world.

Speaker 12204.48s - 2222.06s

He is me. He is you. He is the listener, you into this world. He is me. He is you. He is the listener, you guys at home. He is plucked out of just living his normal life with his wife and kid and sent off to be a spy in Russia at the height of the Cold War EVENT. And it's the scariest thing you could do.

Speaker 02222.62s - 2267.16s

Like, I cannot imagine what Greville PERSON was going through during actually doing this in real life. And I think Benedict Cumberbatch PERSON is a masterstroke when it comes to casting. But I think he's also held up by a wonderful cast of people around him. I'm going to be the first person to take a punt at saying the guy's name,Marab Nanitzi PERSON. I can't pronounce that very well. I'm sorry, but Rachel Brosnahanen PERSON is also fantastic. There's just a great cast. Angus Wright PERSON is in there too. Jess Buckley PERSON is fantastic. And I mean, I've got my criticisms, which I'll get to in a bit. But I just think if you're looking for one of those sort of reality-based Cold War EVENT-esque spy films

Speaker 12267.16s - 2273.46s

really go with the nitty-gritty of spycraft but are entertaining at the same time I can't pick many better than this

Speaker 02273.46s - 2276.38s

Well you mentioned how it has a lot of parallels

Speaker 12276.38s - 2277.68s

with Bridge of Spies

Speaker 02277.68s - 2301.72s

and you can really see that but the thing that I think you kind of queued in on something there which is you said he's an every man and Tom Hanks PERSON is kind of like an every man, but that character, that real person, obviously, who took part in the events of Bridges Fives WORK_OF_ART, not really an every man.Like, incredibly successful lawyer, somewhat of a public figure, and, you know, this diplomat being sent in.

Speaker 12301.82s - 2309.2s

That's very different than a guy who's basically a salesman being sent into a world he really doesn't understand.

Speaker 32309.92s - 2314s

Like Tom Hanks' PERSON character in that film, someone understands what he has to do.

Speaker 12314.32s - 2379.8s

He understands diplomacy and how to talk to people, even if the situation around him is intense. Whereas, like, that is something that I think really works for the career, which is like, this is a real fish out of water. And he has no idea what's going on half the time. You know, it's a CIA and MI6 ORG basically saying what they're going to do and telling him, don't worry about it. We'll figure it out.And there's a moment later in the film, you know, we've alluded to Benedict Kumberbatch's character being put into the Russian NORP prison and tortured. And we'll talk about that, I'm sure. But the moment where he's picked up on the plane, and he's saying, oh, why are you picking me up? This is, I didn't do anything wrong,and he's taken off the plane. That moment is the scariest moment in the entire film because he is completely without power in that situation. He has no skills to cope with it. He has not had years and years of MI6 ORG training on how to cope withtorture or anything. He is just, it's you or me at the airport picked out of a line that by security taken off to a back room. We don't know what's going to happen to us. We're completely powerless in that moment. And that's terrifying. Well, what I love about that moment, too, is obviously he sees,

Speaker 02379.8s - 2386.32s

you know, the police coming to get him, but also the guy sitting behind him is also part of the arrest.

Speaker 12386.44s - 2389.6s

So it's like he's surrounded by people who are going to arrest him.

Speaker 02389.66s - 2505.58s

Like there's no friendly faces. There's no way out. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I really enjoyed it. Cam PERSON, what about you?I really enjoy this movie a lot as well. And I think it does a fantastic job in a very unflashy way at condensing a multi-year story into a two-hour package that is still compelling and doesn't feel choppy. You can get to the end and go, oh, they traded like 5,000 documents or something like that. I didn't really feel like they were passing that many documents over the course of this movie. But it doesn't really matter because they, I think, succeed so well in nailing the core relationships that inform the entire story. I think, like, the friendship between the two men, you know, the salesman and this, you know, Russian NORP who is passing the secrets back and forth,it's all grounded in things that are entirely recognizable to pretty much anyone watching the movie. It's them talking about their families, their home lives, their aspirations for what they'd like the world to be like. These are all things that anyone could relate to watching the movie. And I think it does an incredibly good job at making that friendship count in about 45 minutes of screen time. And that's 45 minutes intercut with marital storylines, what's going on with MI6 and the CIA ORG, you know, there'sa lot of other business going on around it, and yet the building of that relationship over 45 minutes or so has to carry you through the entire second half of the movie where Benedict Cumberbatch really takes the spotlight, and you getthe prison visit and things like that. It is, I think, really impactful. It's not just a performance by Mareb Nanichi, I think, really impactful. It's not just the performance by Mareb Nnichi PERSON, but also, like, the way that character just looms over the whole movie, right? Yeah.And I know I probably mangled that name, but there's going to be a lot of mangling of his name, and he deserves to have his name mentioned as many times as possible because while Bennett Cumberbatch PERSON may be the star of the movie, I think he's the secret weapon that makes the movie work.

Speaker 12506.22s - 2516.86s

Just keep a counter, guys, listening at home. How many times we mispronounce his name? And then let us know, drop us an email, see how many you can count, how many times we mispronounce his name. I want to hear Ian PERSON have a go to do.

Speaker 22517.58s - 2572.06s

I'm not even going to go there. I'm sticking with Mareb PERSON. He's fine. No, he is brilliantly cast in this. I mean, I've as you'd imaginePenkovsky PERSON to be, I mean, I've not seen any footage of him speak. There are some photos of him and there's certainly a likeness there.And I think it comes across pretty well. I mean, for Penkovsky PERSON, I mean, he was doing this really for ideological reasons. He wanted to work for the Western ORG. He wanted to become a officer of either the British Army or the US Army. So, but he was also a bit of a loose cannon.

Speaker 02572.74s - 2580.54s

He was difficult to handle as an agent as well because he, you know, when he had the

Speaker 32580.54s - 2586.52s

meetups in London, you know, he would be out be out you know around the nightclubs

Speaker 02586.52s - 2588.06s

and stuff like that

Speaker 22588.06s - 2625.5s

and I think that there's there was some confusion when he was being interrogated by the KGB they'd recorded a conversation that he'd had in a restaurant with Grevillewin where Penkovsky PERSON had said to win how Zeph and the KGB ORG were very mystified by this conversation because they thoughtthis must be a code name for somebody and it turned out it was some girl that Penkovsky PERSON had met in a nightclub and he was asking Greville Wynnhow she was was she still doing all right in London Oh no not the wholesome family man I'm seeing in the movie and he was asking Greff will win how she was, was she still doing all right in London?

Speaker 02628.04s - 2630.04s

Oh, no, not the wholesome family man I'm seeing in the movie.

Speaker 12634.26s - 2637.86s

I do appreciate a little bit of character they give to Penkovsky because he talks about how he wants to move to Montana GPE. Yeah.

Speaker 02638.58s - 2650.4s

And basically be a cowboy, which I just, I love that image of Marab PERSON just riding around on a horse being a cowboy. But I was reminded of Sam Neal's character in Hunt for Red October WORK_OF_ART who also wanted to.

Speaker 22650.86s - 2664.56s

Yeah, absolutely. I was going to say that there. There we go. He wanted to move to Montana GPE and be a cowboy. So I think that's just a little nod to spy movie issue there. Maybe that was his plan. I don't know. Wasn't that the same year too that Benedict Cumberbatch played a cowboy in Power of the Dog WORK_OF_ART?

Speaker 02666.1s - 2666.64s

Maybe. I think it was. Are we going the same year too that Benedict Cumberbatch played a cowboy in Power the Dog WORK_OF_ART? Maybe.

Speaker 12667.98s - 2670.32s

I think it was. Are we going back to horse hards all of a sudden? I think we are.

Speaker 02670.52s - 2681.9s

I think we are. Throwback. Let's talk about some more likes, things that we really liked about the films. Ian PERSON, I'm going to throw it to you. Something you want to call out, a scene, a character, a performance, a moment that you really liked.

Speaker 22684.18s - 2740.64s

I think that the moment that I really like, and it is sort of like the every man piece in there, is when he is first recruited, when he sits down for that dinner and he says, you want me to be a spy? And it's, you know, it's almost like, and you can sort of understand it. You know, it's exciting to think that you would be a spy. But obviously the implications have you said, you know, previously about what might happen if you get captured.But he's got this implicit trust that MI6 ORG will pull the irons out of the fire at the last minute or ride over the hill with the cavalry or rescue him. And he's got this naivety as to exactly what he's getting into there. Well, I love that, you know,

Speaker 02740.72s - 2759.9s

initially he's like, this sounds dangerous. And they say something like, if this were dangerous, you'd be at home right now. Like, they're, I think, really underselling the potential threats of this. And I think it's done in a way that is actually really almost like amusing, but also like you're like, oh, this poor guy, this poor guy.

Speaker 12760.56s - 2784.34s

I think he's been reading too many, like at this point, Ian Fleming PERSON maybe, or maybe some grey and green Spy WORK_OF_ART novels and just got an idea It's head as to what a spy is like And he's hoping he's being sent off with a DB5 To drive aroundActually, it wouldn't be a DB5 in the Fleming PERSON books But sent to, you know, Gallivance around Europe and Shaggy PERSON's way through a nest of spies somewhere But that is not the mission he is sent on

Speaker 02784.34s - 2801.62s

No, and I mean also There, there's the moment, too, where they realize that Penkovsky PERSON is in trouble, and he's like, use me, send me in. But it's like, really, what is this guy going to do? Let me at him. Let me at him. Yeah.I think he's in a little over his head.

Speaker 12802.48s - 2822.78s

Yeah, he's got that sort of tape. I mean, the problem is, and it's actually something I'll come to and dislikes maybe in a little while. But he, it's that classic spy movie cliche of they become a spy and then are instantly fantastic at being a spy. Is he, though? Well, it does it, 5,000 documents later.

Speaker 02823.24s - 2828.28s

But he's not really a spy, right? Like, they're just kind of like exchanging documents back and forth.

Speaker 22828.7s - 2841.34s

And he, in the real story, he's not doing the main, the heavy lifting with the document exchange. It's this woman whose husband is in MI6 ORG with the pram. Yeah.

Speaker 12841.54s - 2844.42s

He's doing a lot of the document exchanges.

Speaker 02845.46s - 2845.64s

Hmm.

Speaker 12846.06s - 2849.7s

Well, I guess they've amalgamated that for the film.

Speaker 22850.36s - 2864.2s

But, you know, I think there is a great scene, though, that restaurant scene and getting an idea of how they're manipulating him as well, how there's a slight bit of them twisting his arm without him knowing it.

Speaker 12864.2s - 2874.02s

And it doesn't really wink at the audience either. You kind of have pulled along with it. But you know that there are higher stakes. And oh, don't worry, we'll pull you out.

Speaker 02874.08s - 2874.64s

It'll be no problem.

Speaker 12875.48s - 2880.56s

And I think, like, you know, you have Rachel Brosnahan in that scene as the CIA ORG member

Speaker 02880.56s - 2926.68s

who's obviously involved in this. And we talked to the writer about that character because it is a composite character of several individuals who are tied to the real events. And they made a real artistic choice with actually having a female character take that place in the movie. But I think this movie does an incredibly good job at writing a composite character who actuallyfeels like an interesting and compelling individual. We don't know a ton about her, but I was consistently engaged with where she was involved throughout the story. It has a great scene with Jesse Buckley later in the movie as well. And I mean, a lot of movies, Scott PERSON, that we have covered have very bland composite characters that stick out like a sore thumb because you're like, this feels like a fake person.

Speaker 12927.16s - 2937.76s

Well, you know, they could really sort of hedge their bets and not, you know, not really run with it. But you get someone like Rosnerhan in, especially with her Miss Maisel WORK_OF_ART pedigree, and she's used to doing

Speaker 02937.76s - 2956.7s

period sort of comedies and dramas. She knows what she's doing in this era. She knows what she's portraying. And I think she really gets the assignment. I remember watching the Ipchus File TV show by ITV a year or so ago. And they've sort of really boosted up the gene character in that show.

Speaker 22957.8s - 2990.44s

To the point of stretching credulity a little bit. And you can feel it falling apart that she's given all this extra stuff. That's not the case here. Rachel Rosanhan's PERSON character feels completely at home in this story. I know that in reality it was all just male CIA ORG people working on this case. There wasn't really any women involved at all. But changing it to a woman means it doesn't matter to me. It gives you more representation. It actually gives you that wonderful scene with Jess Buckley PERSON later as well.I think you wouldn't get that without this character being a woman. So I think it paid off in the end.

Speaker 02991s - 2992.62s

Yeah, I mean, ultimately, this isn't a documentary.

Speaker 12993.04s - 2994.28s

It's supposed to be entertaining.

Speaker 02994.86s - 2998.74s

And I think her contributions actually kind of increased the entertainment factor.

Speaker 12999.26s - 3014.94s

I agree. I think if I'm going to jump on over to a thing I like, I have an idea what Cam PERSON's answer is going to be, so I'm going to let that over to a thing I like, I have an idea what Cam PERSON's answer is going to be, so I'm going to let that be and let you do that one. Okay. I don't know if that's accurate, but we'll see.Okay. Well, I'm really rolling the dice here.

Speaker 33014.94s - 3054.98s

But I just actually wanted to tip my hat to two things, and this is really coming under the umbrella of the look and feel of the film. Because the cinematography, who I should have the name of the cinematographer ready, I won't, I'll vamp whilst I look it up. But, you know, the cinematography is fantastic, but also the sort of costuming and the sets are great. And this has done, I mean, no, this is filmed in Russia GPE.It's all just sort of done in post that stuff there. A lot of it shot in the UK GPE. The cinematographer is Sean Bobbitt PERSON, by the way added name in there but they really capture that feel that I think also Bridge of Spies WORK_OF_ART is very successful at doing and I imagine this has done far cheaper than

Speaker 03054.98s - 3061.04s

bridge of spies was um yeah significantly that's a Spielberg PERSON production they had a little more

Speaker 13061.04s - 3098.6s

money to play with for sure yeah yeah it Yeah, it just, it looks the part, specifically like the houses, both of their houses just feel real and lived in. Everything just feels like, almost like they had some people on set who knew what that era looked like and could really say from experience, perhaps, what the offices should feel like, what the meetings should feel like, what the home should feel like. Nothing felt out of place. I mean, I'm not saying I was, you know, some films have, you know, iPods PRODUCT lying around or something like that.But it just felt like they spent a lot of time making sure that the vibe was right so you could be drawn into the world more.

Speaker 03099.02s - 3099.18s

Yeah.

Speaker 23099.38s - 3107.48s

Well, the cinematographer, Sean Bobbitt, who you mentioned, actually works with Steve McQueen quite a bit and worked on 12 years of slave and shame.

Speaker 03107.7s - 3109.84s

So he's pretty visually accomplished.

Speaker 13110.2s - 3114.42s

And I'm pretty sure he's an Oscar nominee, if not for 12 years of slave or a couple other things.

Speaker 03115.36s - 3122.44s

But I love the shot at one point you have, it's going to setting up the home life of Greville PERSON.

Speaker 13123.04s - 3125.56s

And you see him and his wife in the separate rooms.

Speaker 03125.82s - 3126.06s

Yeah.

Speaker 23126.12s - 3128.24s

And you see him in like the lounge and then her in the kitchen.

Speaker 03128.32s - 3144.2s

And the way those two rooms have their own distinct feel and vibe and that they are kind of occupying two very different places in the home. And it looks so beautiful. You could frame that shot. And that's not the only shot through the movie that looks that good. For sure.

Speaker 13144.34s - 3179.72s

And I'll also note just something I picked up on. They do a real, they put a lot of effort into making the homes of both Greville Winn and Oleg Pankowski's PERSON character look very similar because there are these two men that are connected, at least in the film world, maybe not so much in real life. But they're both idealistic men trying to do the right thing for the world. But also their home lives are very similar with how their families are set up. Those are how the houses are set up and how they sort of conduct their business day to day.There is a lot of work to go into it to sort of almost provide like a mirror image between the two of them.

Speaker 03180.24s - 3188.52s

It's subtle. It doesn't scream at you that they're doing it. But I just think it's a nice touch. Yeah, I mean, they do a very good job at creating a connection between the two of them.

Speaker 13188.74s - 3207.26s

I like how you see them visiting the play, or the ballet, I should say, and how they both have this emotional involvement. But you have, like, Khrushchev PERSON up in the balcony looking over them. So it's kind of like the eyes of Russia GPE are always on top of them. And that's like their only real escape is that, you know, that kind of getting sucked into the, into the ballet.

Speaker 03207.82s - 3211.02s

I think the cinematography is particularly good with this.

Speaker 23211.02s - 3224.7s

I mean, it feels right. It feels like they've really got the early 60s captured well. Although I was irritated to see, because I looked for bloopers and stuff like that.

Speaker 03224.74s - 3239.56s

And apparently somebody criticised the fact that you could hear a police siren in one scene and the British police only had bells on their squad cars in the 1960s. They didn't have sirensbut you're naturally going to expect that from somebody.

Speaker 23240.44s - 3241.78s

Oh boo, disavowed.

Speaker 13242.68s - 3258.26s

Yeah, we're cancelled in the podcast, we're done. I'm sure if I went to the goofs page of IMDB ORG, there'd be some real eye-rolling goofs in there. There always are. There always are. Cam PERSON, I presumed I knew what you were going to say, but why don't you prove me wrong anyway?

Speaker 03258.96s - 3263.78s

I was going to talk just about the relationships and the way that they are so effectively conveyed.

Speaker 13264s - 3264.3s

Bingo.

Speaker 03264.3s - 3269.62s

And we've talked about, obviously, you know, Greville and Oleg PERSON, the scenes they have together.

Speaker 13269.86s - 3276.36s

You know, I mentioned the ballet, but just the kind of gentle discussions they have about, you know, who they are as people.

Speaker 03276.36s - 3285.62s

But then also something that would be completely sidelined or turned into very one-note material, the relationship between Greville PERSON and his wife.

Speaker 13286.32s - 3295.2s

And I think there's some really clever stuff going on because Jesse Buckley, you don't cast her and give her just like generic stuff. That's, no, that's not acceptable.

Speaker 33295.68s - 3308.52s

And so I like how she is often too smart for the situation. She's someone who's going, this doesn't add up. And there is, you know, references to him having had an affair in the past. And so she is on to him.

Speaker 03308.82s - 3344.24s

And I love the way that she has to play an active role throughout the course of the movie, at a certain point going to the prison to see him. And she has a great moment there where she basically says, it's looking good. You may only have to do another year or two. It's like, oh my God, we've seen what this man has gone through. But there's like a real strength to her and intelligence and there are so many movies about men in dramatic historical situations where you havethe woman at home. And there's a lot of people that have won Oscars WORK_OF_ART for the Women at Home roles. But this one actually feels like one where the writer and the director actively cared

Speaker 23344.24s - 3352.2s

about making that a compelling figure. It feels like a real relationship. You know, you could very

Speaker 03352.2s - 3357.84s

easily just soft soap that and just have it almost like as a background piece, but it becomes,

Speaker 23358.14s - 3366.12s

you know, quite as, well, it does become a central part of the, you know, the film, you know, her suspicions about what he's up to. And, you know, the inference, you know, her suspicions about what he's up to

Speaker 33366.12s - 3369s

and, you know, the inference

Speaker 13369s - 3372.66s

there that he, you know, he did have an affair previously.

Speaker 33373.96s - 3375.96s

Yeah, you could have,

Speaker 13376.32s - 3405.48s

you could argue that you could take 10 minutes out of this film and really sort of pare down that character and it, maybe the end result would still be the same, but I think it just adds a touch of a splash of color to this whole story knowing that there is a real person behind this spyknowing that there is a real relationship in there and that you actually care about what the wife is going through despite this big massive stakes of the Cuban NORP missile crisis you care about his his wife and their relationship?

Speaker 33405.64s - 3406.64s

Yeah.

Speaker 23406.68s - 3406.92s

Yeah.

Speaker 13408.54s - 3408.62s

Be interesting to, you know,

Speaker 23409.42s - 3421.12s

whether, you know, Jesse Buckley looked at that script and thought, yeah, this is something I can really get my teeth into. And if it hadn't have been that script, whether she would have turned it down because it was too,

Speaker 13421.5s - 3482.3s

you know, vanilla. There is a story in our interview with Tom O'Connor late this week about that and how that character came to be. So obviously it's based on the real person, but look out for that.We'll have a bit more information there. Okay. I did just want to add in an extra like that no one's mentioned, but we've talked about it a little bit, and I'm assuming it's in everyone's like section. And that is, I mean, I'm not saying I like it, but the Greville PERSON being in prison.And the treatment there and the physical transformation of Benedict Camberbatch actually physically went through. It's enhanced with digital effects, but he did drop about 10KG in weight. I'm not sure what that is in pounds. I'm sorry, North Americans NORP. For this role, he committed to it. It's one of the things that really attracted him to doing this role, was actually getting to do a physical performance like that. And we've seen, much like the sort of wife at home characters,we've seen plenty of torture scenes in spy movies, and there aren't many that leave an impression on me like this one does.

Speaker 03482.9s - 3489.06s

Well, you can look at Zero Dark 30 WORK_OF_ART, which has very graphic torture scenes.

Speaker 13490.36s - 3495.26s

And they definitely are revolting to look at, but this is more of an emotional punch.

Speaker 03495.7s - 3502.04s

When you see what this character goes through over that period of time, and what I think is

Speaker 13502.04s - 3509.9s

the big gut punch is when you have him sat down in the interrogation room opposite Oleg PERSON and you see what Oleg looks like.

Speaker 03510.6s - 3518.48s

And you feel so much for that character and the fact that they don't specifically tell you what they've been doing to him, which apparently was quite horrific.

Speaker 33518.78s - 3519.78s

I've read some things.

Speaker 03519.96s - 3521.12s

It really sticks with you.

Speaker 33521.32s - 3524.58s

Yeah, it really does stick with you in that moment in the movie.

Speaker 13525.24s - 3529.84s

And it's actually quite good in the sense of the trailer, or the least the one I watched today,

Speaker 03529.84s - 3532.68s

doesn't really reveal much about what happens to him in the prison.

Speaker 13532.76s - 3579.8s

So you do get this physical transformation reveal in the film. And it hits you like, oh, I did not see that coming. I did not know we were going to see him sort of drop all that weight and look so powerless. And there's a real, there's a nice touch that I noticed on my second viewing with Benedict Cumberbatch PERSON and push-ups. Yeah. You know, early in the film, he's not able to do a push-up.As he gets better at spying, he's actually able to do a few. He's getting stronger. And then as he's in prison, he loses the ability to do a push-up again because he becomes beaten down and weak because of that and it's just like a showing of his sort of power going up and down and him taking his power away in prison. And I thought that was really niceand I think the Jesse Bucky PERSON scene was great too and it reminded me a lot of the BBC ORG adaptation of 1984

Speaker 23579.8s - 3606.52s

where you see John Hurt PERSON go through the torture in the Ministry of Truth FAC, I think it is in that sequence there. And he doesn't do the whole weight drop thing, but it is quite harrowing to watch that, especially the way they sort of shoot it with the one light dropping downand everything like that. Like this is a well-put-together moment, and I think it will catch people off guard, and it will leave an impression on you.

Speaker 03606.52s - 3626.22s

It's a great moment during the prison sequence where you have like kind of the peephole or whatever in the door and it's shot through that and you see Bennett PERSON cover hatch just melting down inside the room. And like I remember that moment has like real visceral impact. And it's not, you know, overly graphic or overly intense. It just really conveys the experience that he's going through. And it's not, you know, overly graphic or overly intense. It just really conveys

Speaker 23626.22s - 3656.34s

the experience that he's going through. And it's also, it comes back to that every man view as well. You know, he's not been trained for this. He's not even been told, you know, what to say or anything like, you know, anything like that. And you try and imagine yourself in that situation. You know, and as you say, it starts with being pulled off the plane and then just goes downhill, you know, rapidly and over a long period of time. I would sing like a canary.

Speaker 13656.78s - 3660.1s

They would get everything out of me. I would not last very long.

Speaker 23660.1s - 3667.66s

I mean, I saw the look of that soup in there. I don't know. I think I'm giving it up pretty quick. I'd be on the plane still.

Speaker 03668.94s - 3677.42s

I'd have given it all up just sitting on the plane. Listen, there's all to sit down and talk, shall we? I've got details. Let's have a nice cup of tea.

Speaker 23677.84s - 3678.94s

Get your notepads.

Speaker 03681.1s - 3683.8s

We interrupt this program to bring you a special report.

Speaker 13684.52s - 3689.5s

Red Alert, spy hards, we are shaking things up over on the Patreon ORG page.

Speaker 03689.78s - 3692.56s

That's right, we are launching an exclusive new show

Speaker 13692.56s - 3696.6s

where we tackle the exploits of the small screen's greatest secret agents,

Speaker 03696.92s - 3700s

like Jack Bauer, George Smiley PERSON, and beyond.

Speaker 13700s - 3716.14s

And don't forget every month you also get two agents in the field episodes where we decode the adventures of your favorite spy actors in their biggest non-spy movies. But cab, tell the people what we have coming up next.

Speaker 03716.5s - 3724.98s

Well, Scott, in our latest episode of On the Small Screen, we're going to look at 2008-24 Redemption WORK_OF_ART TV movie.

Speaker 13725.48s - 3728.88s

Will Kiefer Sutherland Deliver, or will this be a Jack Bore PERSON?

Speaker 03729.42s - 3737.7s

So strap on your Condor Man PRODUCT wings and soar into the future with us over at patreon.com slash spy hearts.

Speaker 13737.7s - 3743.66s

But before Big O zaps us with a red pulsating laser, let's get back to the spy jinks.

Speaker 03743.64s - 3747.6s

red pulsating laser, let's get back to the spy jinks.

Speaker 13752.88s - 3759.7s

All right, let's move on over to dislikes, things, critiques we have of the film. I have a couple of small ones, but Ian, I'm keen to hear from you first. Is anything you'd like to sort of pick up about the film?

Speaker 23770.88s - 3785.62s

I don't think so. I've sort of spoken about it because I'm looking at it from the, you know, the real story to see where, you know, where they've done shortcuts and, and, and, and sticks really close to the story. It does take a few liberties around the fact, you know, there's a, they think that the, uh, GRU ORG knew that

Speaker 03785.62s - 3787.8s

Penkovsky PERSON was a double agent

Speaker 13787.8s - 3789.9s

for about a year

Speaker 23789.9s - 3791.06s

before he was arrested

Speaker 33791.06s - 3793.64s

but they wanted to follow him and that

Speaker 23793.64s - 3858.92s

isn't apparent it seems like things move very quickly in the film and I get why they you know why they do that so you know I guess my you know, that would be my criticism is, is the, you know, how far away some bits of it are, are from, from the truth.But in terms of the general story and the layout of it, it, it works for me. It's not, it's not, you know, I don't think they've taken that many liberties, and they've managed to make a really good drama out of, I would say, probably 90% factual, you know, storyline that they've put together there. Obviously, they're making up, you know, the dialogue because, you know, they won't know that. But there's nothing really major that leaps out that I would criticize about it.I think it's, you know, great casting, great cinematography, and it's Cold War EVENT. What's not to like?

Speaker 13860.18s - 3865.72s

That actually does lead me to a question about your sort of Cold War EVENT knowledge,

Speaker 23865.82s - 3871.16s

because as you say, you're coming at this from having prior knowledge of the actual real events,

Speaker 13871.22s - 3873.56s

or at least some before you watch the film, maybe there's some more reading.

Speaker 23873.9s - 3876.78s

You've obviously had an episode on one of the characters in this too.

Speaker 13877.82s - 3895.46s

When it comes to watching more, you know, Cold War-based films, not just Spy WORK_OF_ART movies, but films set during the Cold War EVENT, do you find that it's actually hard for you to watch ones that are based on real-life events because you find yourself drawing those comparisons? Or do you actually like it when they are based on real events?

Speaker 23896.16s - 3900.9s

Well, I guess it can spoil a film because you know what's going to happen.

Speaker 13901.86s - 3902.18s

Sure.

Speaker 33903.18s - 3913.34s

You know, because you know what the historical side of it is. But then some films do put a twist at the end where it's not, you know, it doesn't actually follow historical fact.

Speaker 13914.54s - 3915.44s

Not really.

Speaker 23915.6s - 3928.8s

I enjoy most of them. I mean, some of the fiction ones, I mean, you mentioned the ITV Ipcrest PRODUCT file, which I just didn't lie. I just felt

Speaker 33928.8s - 3936.66s

it was a bit, they tried too hard to make it look like the 1960s or whenever, you know, the period

Speaker 23936.66s - 3953.84s

it was, it was set in. Whereas here, you know, you've got some great performances, some nice understated performances as well, you know, the relationship between some great performances, some nice understated performances as well. You know, the relationship between them, and that was a very important part of this story, is they built up this really strong friendship.

Speaker 33954.96s - 3959.62s

And, you know, Wyn PERSON says, you know, he would never betray me.

Speaker 23959.68s - 3978.98s

He would never betray me. He had that trust in Penkovsky PERSON there. And yeah, I think it's a, it's as accurate as you could do in a film of, of that story within two hours, to be fair. I had a question for you,

Speaker 03979.02s - 3982.86s

Ian, because you came on last time to talk about Bridge of Spies WORK_OF_ART, a movie that has a lot in

Speaker 33982.86s - 3990.26s

common with this movie. Quality aside or enjoyment aside, which do you think was better at translating kind of the real-world story?

Speaker 03991.16s - 3993.82s

I think this was, The Courier WORK_OF_ART. Interesting.

Speaker 23995.84s - 4003.62s

Because the relationship side, the relationship between the characters is more believable.

Speaker 04003.82s - 4006s

I mean, with Bridge of Spires WORK_OF_ART, you've got that great

Speaker 24006s - 4008.08s

relationship with Tom Hanks PERSON and

Speaker 04008.08s - 4010.36s

Rylance PERSON there.

Speaker 24010.6s - 4011.54s

I think, I think that

Speaker 04011.54s - 4013.56s

works well, but I think

Speaker 24013.56s - 4015.66s

you know, the

Speaker 34015.66s - 4017.82s

relationship between Greville

Speaker 24017.82s - 4062.04s

Winn PERSON and his wife, as you say, in the relationship with, with Pankowski PERSON, there's some nice nuances in there that I, I'm not certain you get from, from Bridge of Spies WORK_OF_ART. I mean, it's difficult. I'm trying to think of bits of the two. But I think because this is the most recent one I've seen of the two, you inevitably, you know, see more,more details in it that you like or that you dislike. But yeah, I think this one is a more accurate representation of the pressures of being a spy or being involved in espionage.

Speaker 04063.3s - 4080.46s

And actually, Bridge of Spies WORK_OF_ART is kind of a mark against that one. It's actually the relationship he has with Amy Ryan PERSON in that movie. That sort of marriage story really is subpar in comparison to this one. So I love Bridge of Spies WORK_OF_ART. I love it to pieces, but that is definitely an element that falls short in comparison to this one.

Speaker 14080.88s - 4082s

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 04082.72s - 4086.94s

And speaking of falling short, I guess I'll chuck my two cents in.

Speaker 14087.3s - 4207.82s

I have a bit of an issue with how Penkovsky PERSON's handled in this film. I feel like, I mean, not a lot of is known about what happened to him at the end. There's a lot of different takes on it. Some say he was just murdered. Some say he was used to something else and put back to pass his way. He just spent the rest of the time and he's in a gulag. There's lots of different interpretations of what happened to the chap. But, you know, once it all goes down and they'recaptured, the POV really is just Benedict Cumberbatch PERSON at that point. And the story seems to sort of want to not talk about Penkovsky PERSON much anymore, probably his reappearance in the prison. But that for me is almost more of an interesting part of the story because much as Benedict Cumberbatch PERSON is a fish out of water, he has had none of this training to do anything, to sort of survive this environment. We're talking about a man, Penkovsky PERSON, who has abandoned his entire country, sold hiscountry out, and will face a very bleak ending, and he knows that. It's Mark Rylance getting into the car at the end of Bridge of Spies WORK_OF_ART. He knows he's going off to a very sorry end, but we don't get to see it or experience it with the character when we spent 45 minutes building up the story about him and his family, about what they all were going through. You never really get a proper resolution on that.And obviously, you get the small payoff where he finds out that his actions have stopped the Cuban Missile Crisis. So I could hear you biting back at me saying there is that little olive branch there. But I don't think you get a character or an actor with the sort of pedigree of Mirab Ninitsky PERSON and I hope I got that right that time. And then don't use him in the torture scenes. I feel like you could have had them both. Like I could see a shot in my head of both of them back to back on the walls of the prison cells going crazy and having the same reactions to it or something like that. I could just see those sort of things in my head.And I feel like there's a bit of a missed opportunity there that I would like to have seen more of.

Speaker 04208.3s - 4258.72s

I wonder if they wanted to have an element of mystery as to what was going on with Pankowski PERSON, that they want the audience to be wondering, like, what's going on with him? Is he going to give up information that could get Benedict Cumberbatch's character of Greville PERSON, you know, in trouble?So I think that might be part of the reason, just dramatically, to keep it a mystery. But, like, I also kind of wonder if they underestimated how much the audience would care about the Pankowski PERSON character and actually become emotionally connected to him. Sure. Because you have a movie star in Benedict Cumberbatch PERSON. And I wonder if they were thinking the audience cares about him. That's who they really genuinely care about.But I almost wonder if they didn't realize that they really had a secret weapon in, you know, the actor playing Pankovsky PERSON. Nice. Well done.

Speaker 14259.18s - 4260.7s

Thank you. Thank you. Very smooth. I know.

Speaker 04261.7s - 4264.68s

And see, Prince, the actor formerly known as Pankovsky PERSON.

Speaker 14264.94s - 4265.76s

That's right.

Speaker 04266.32s - 4282.7s

From now on, yes. I just wonder if they were like, we want a good actor for this role because it's an important role, obviously. But they didn't realize that he would be something of a powerhouse in this movie opposite Benedict Cumberbatch PERSON, and people would actually genuinely emotionally want to follow him.

Speaker 14283.18s - 4318.18s

I mean, listen, I think the film resolves perfectly and I think it's a fine ending. I just, if we're talking about nitpicks, that's something that popped to my mind I would have liked to have seen a bit more, especially because what is known to himisn't a straight story that we can tell. It is almost a bit ambiguous. Actually gives them a bit of creative license to come up with their own ending for the character, and you could have seen that through to the end, but we just sort of left it to, you know, it's a mystery.I guess that's interesting. But if you're telling a story sort of a, you know, docudrama style that this is going for in a way, maybe you could have seen what happened to him. I don't know.

Speaker 24318.68s - 4331.82s

Yeah. I mean, there were various stories as to what happened to Pantikovsky PERSON in real life. It's believed that he was shot in 1963, but there were stories about the KGB ORG pushing him alive into a furnace

Speaker 34331.82s - 4338.16s

in front of a gathering of high-ranking Soviet NORP officers. Oh boy.

Speaker 14338.64s - 4340.16s

Which, yeah,

Speaker 24340.62s - 4341.6s

that would have been a scene.

Speaker 14342.4s - 4345.78s

That's a very dark ending to the film, for sure.

Speaker 24346.7s - 4380.36s

Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, if you read Wynn PERSON's book, because he wrote a biography, he plays fast and loose with the truth. I mean, you can tell he was a salesman. There's a lot of porkies in there. But, yeah, I think, yeah, it's a shame that they don't, you know,you don't hear more about Pencosky PERSON towards the end. He just sort of disappears out of the narrative, doesn't he?

Speaker 14380.88s - 4385.8s

Yeah, and Ian PERSON, as a former salesman myself, I'm offended by what you just said.

Speaker 24386.84s - 4394.2s

And I completely understand it. I wonder, too, if, like, Pankowski PERSON comes to a very grim end.

Speaker 14394.86s - 4401.42s

The movie has a bit of, like, a hopeful ending. You're definitely given the impression that Greville PERSON is going to be haunted by this experience.

Speaker 04401.64s - 4409.46s

But it has the kind of hopeful reuniting with the family. Things seems to be going okay for them, although in real life that wasn't really the case.

Speaker 14409.58s - 4412.26s

But it wants to end on kind of an upbeat note of hope.

Speaker 04412.7s - 4416.52s

Which is the same as Bridge of Spides. You see Mark Rylands PERSON get and pull into the car.

Speaker 14416.62s - 4420.3s

You don't know what that happens with him. You get an idea of what that means, but you don't see it.

Speaker 04420.3s - 4422.94s

And then Tom Hanks PERSON goes home and hugs his wife.

Speaker 14423.78s - 4428.54s

Yes. But they have in that movie text at the end saying what happened to them.

Speaker 04428.88s - 4429.06s

Sure.

Speaker 14429.12s - 4438.1s

And I wonder if in this movie it's like you have the Pankovsky PERSON ending and then suddenly like a card comes up saying like horrible things that they did to him.

Speaker 04438.54s - 4444.92s

The audience, any like kind of moment of hope they had at the end of that movie is instantly erased and it's a total downer.

Speaker 14445.3s - 4457.04s

So I can understand why they're kind of dancing around it. Yeah. Maybe it's just a personal taste thing. I'd be keen to know what you will think, let us know what ending you would have preferred. Would you like more Penkovsky PERSON? Cam PERSON, I dislike from you.

Speaker 04457.44s - 4482.04s

Yeah, I'm just going to have kind of a nitpick one, I suppose, or I don't even know if it's a nitpick. But just something I think, you know, we've been comparing it with Bridges Spies WORK_OF_ART in certain cases. I think this movie doesn't do quite as strong a job as Bridges Spies WORK_OF_ART. It kind of capturing the atmosphere of paranoia around the Cold War EVENT and the nuclear threat. You have a moment where people are hearing, I think it's like a radio broadcast about like, you know, the duck and cover kind of stuff.

Speaker 34482.22s - 4488.1s

But I didn't feel kind of like the intensity of the fear of what was going to happen.

Speaker 04488.18s - 4491.16s

And obviously you have them talking about the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Speaker 34491.4s - 4496.12s

But I feel like Bridges Spies WORK_OF_ART did a better job at conveying how people actually felt about it at home.

Speaker 04496.42s - 4499.84s

Whereas you don't have a lot of scenes, say, of Jesse Buckley acknowledging these things.

Speaker 14500.34s - 4550.74s

No, I would agree with that, actually. That is another thing I had noted down in my dislikes. And I made a note of a great line in, I can't remember whose speech it was, but it was one of the people on television about how we're living under a nuclear sword of Damocles PERSON, which I just thought was a fantastic bit of speech writing there. Yeah, they used like clips of television and people watching televisions to give you an idea of what's happening in the background,but you never really feel like the Cuban Missile Crisis is actually any actual threat. You just, if you know about the Cuban Missile Crisis, you know what sort of threat that was. But otherwise, if you're showing this too, I mean, we spoke about how this film doesn't really appeal to Gen Zeds and Gen Alphas out there. But they may not know what the Cuban NORP missile crisis is or was. So giving you a little bit an idea of what the stakes actually were might have been useful. I don't know.

Speaker 04551.08s - 4551.3s

Yeah.

Speaker 14551.72s - 4555.4s

I mean, Scott, there's a lot of tick talks about the history of the Cuban NORP missile crisis.

Speaker 04555.5s - 4557.98s

So clearly you are not hip with the Gen Zs.

Speaker 14558.28s - 4561.06s

The fact that you said hip with the Gen Z says it all.

Speaker 04561.94s - 4565.5s

But I think as far as if you're actually going by the timelines,

Speaker 24566.34s - 4570.92s

the arrest of Pankowski is before the Cuba GPE missile crisis.

Speaker 34571.52s - 4572.16s

Right.

Speaker 24573.36s - 4603.4s

And so, you know, prior to then, there was quite a warming in the relationship between the West and Khrushchev PERSON. You know, they were, you know, trying to, well, Kennedy PERSON had been trying to build a, you know, a decent, you know, a decent relationship there with them. And at one point, he actually asked Khrushchev if they wanted to participate in a joint moon mission rather than the US GPE finance it solely.

Speaker 34604.68s - 4609.34s

So there was a warming of relations, but obviously then when with the discovery of the

Speaker 24609.34s - 4636.04s

missiles on Cuba GPE, then there was an immense cooling down of relations there. So, yeah, I think Bridges Spies WORK_OF_ART overdoes it, I think, with the nuclear stuff, because you've got the girl watching the atom bomb going off and crying. Right. You know, and it's just, I think it's overdone, but maybe that's just me being British.

Speaker 14637.38s - 4653.3s

Yeah, it is all personal taste things. And as Cam PERSON said, these are all little nitpicks about a film we all seem to have very much enjoyed. So let's get to sort of final notes before we get to the knock list. Guests are always first. Is there really notes you've got down here that you haven't mentioned already you'd like to bring up? Not really.

Speaker 24653.5s - 4660.28s

I think I've covered everything and I've harped on too much about details, about timelines.

Speaker 14661.08s - 4662.54s

No, no, no.

Speaker 24662.54s - 4663.26s

We love to harp.

Speaker 14663.4s - 4667.16s

You are our master of all things, Cold War EVENT. That is why you're here. You are our master of all things called war.

Speaker 24667.22s - 4670.7s

That's why you're here. I've got a couple. Cam PERSON, what about you?

Speaker 04671.88s - 4686.36s

I only had a couple things. I'll mention first of all. We have the introduction of Greville PERSON where he's playing golf. And I was thinking about how many spy movies have we seen golf in? Goldfinger PRODUCT's the obvious, but I feel like there was another one.

Speaker 24686.68s - 4690.18s

I would imagine there's quite a few, actually, if you actually look into them.

Speaker 14690.88s - 4693.86s

I think there might have been a Matt Helm PERSON or something where we saw golf.

Speaker 04694.44s - 4697.94s

There's definitely one out there, Cam PERSON, but I can't think of it off the top of my head.

Speaker 14698.02s - 4716.52s

But it's interesting that you mentioned golf, because I had a golf-related note. Oh, okay. Yeah. So there's a couple of James Bond PERSON nods in this film, and I'll let you all find them yourselves. But here's one.At the beginning of the film, you were introduced to Benedict Cumberbatch PERSON playing golf.

Speaker 04717.12s - 4719.8s

Now, did you recognize where he was playing golf?

Speaker 34720.38s - 4720.84s

No.

Speaker 04721.06s - 4722.68s

Was it the course from Goldfinger PRODUCT?

Speaker 14723.24s - 4732.4s

It was. Stoke Park FAC. It was the golf, the goldfinger, the Goldfinger PRODUCT course. They even make a point of showing he's using a Dunlop 3 PRODUCT.

Speaker 34733.18s - 4738.92s

Oh, wow. Crazy. And if you'll remember Goldfinger uses a Slashinger 7 PRODUCT.

Speaker 14739.68s - 4787.86s

That's right, yeah. Golf trivia. Who'd have thought you'd get it here, folks? I had a couple more. If you tune into the film at the one hour and 41 minute TIME mark, you'll see a glimpse of Cam PERSON and I recording the podcast right now. What?I'll leave that there. You can go look it up in the film, and if you find it, send us a screenshot, and you'll know what I mean. Okay. That's just a little bonus gift journey for you all to take. up at the film and if you find it, send this a screenshot and you'll know what I mean. Okay.That's just a little bonus gift journey for you all to take. And my final note is I want to give kudos to the casting director for the film, Nina Gold PERSON, for managing to find the child actor with the weirdest looking head to match Benedict Cumberbatch's PERSON weird looking head.

Speaker 04788.14s - 4799.34s

It's eerie. I actually had that in my notes to mention as well. I was staring at that kid the whole time going like, like they found, they found Benedict Cumberbatch's PERSON like secret love child or something.

Speaker 14800.04s - 4812.6s

I mean, that is the front line of the front page of the sun tomorrow. Now thanks to you, Cam PERSON. Benedict Cumberbatch's secret love child found in a 2021 film played by Kea Hills PERSON. I'll give the chap a name mention whilst we're here.

Speaker 04813.08s - 4817.16s

Not exactly kept in the shadows if he's being presented in a film as Bennett Cumberbatch's PERSON son.

Speaker 14817.46s - 4822.32s

No, a weird way of getting that story out there, isn't it? It really is.

Speaker 04822.32s - 4839.46s

I just had two other notes. The number one, when we are in Russia with Pankovsky PERSON, there's an elevator that looks very dangerous to get off of. It never stops moving and you have to basically just get on and off while it's in motion. And it reminded me of the crazy

Speaker 14839.46s - 4848.48s

elevators from funeral in Berlin. Yeah, they like some crazy lifts in Europe LOC, I suppose. Not in the UK GPE, but...

Speaker 24848.48s - 4849.64s

There is one in the UK GPE.

Speaker 14849.92s - 4859.42s

There's one at Sheffield University ORG. Is there? It's called a Patanoster lift, I think, those things. It's at Sheffield GPE. I'm going to have to get up there.

Speaker 24859.9s - 4875.2s

Yeah, there's one there. I mean, I... Sorry, Cam PERSON. I just want to mention, there's one thing. I mean, I, I, sorry, Cam, I've, I just want to mention, there's one thing that you've reminded me, which was a local connection for me, because when I lived in London, I used to live in Crouchend GPE.

Speaker 04875.58s - 4887.7s

And the scene where Winn is outside the underground station, I think it's South Kensington LOC. Yeah. He's actually filmed at Hornseyornsy Town Hall FAC that was in

Speaker 24887.7s - 4898s

Crowchend GPE. So it's made up to look like an underground station. So I was delighted to see there was a local connection which would have been a stone's throw from where I used to live in London.

Speaker 04898.76s - 4903.76s

Oh, very nice. Well, I mean, I've got a local connection for you just to close out my other notes.

Speaker 34903.86s - 4906.84s

Brilliant. Which is one of my favorite things to do when I watch movies,

Speaker 04906.92s - 4909.54s

and they show like movie marquees or anything like that,

Speaker 24909.64s - 4912.68s

is to note down what is playing within the world of the movie.

Speaker 04912.98s - 4939.06s

So when we are getting the tour of Swing in London of the 1960s, on, you know, playing in the theater, not the movie theater, but the actual theater is the sound of music, theatrical production. And when they show a movie display marquee, it's actually for the Elvis movie, Girls, Girls, Girls WORK_OF_ART. Brilliant. And how is that connected to you, Cam? I've seen Girls, Girls, Girls, Girls WORK_OF_ART. It's terrible. It's

Speaker 14939.06s - 4959.86s

truly terrible. Okay. Yeah, strange to the connection, but I appreciate you paying the attention to it. I always enjoy that part. Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, it's that time again, folks. It's time to talk about the knock list. Ian, you're our guest. You'll get the first vote. But for those who are tuning in for the first time, Cam PERSON, tell the folks what the knock list is.

Speaker 04960.34s - 4964.7s

Yes, the knock list is the need to see official classics of the Spy Hearts ORG podcast,

Speaker 14964.7s - 4966.54s

where every week after we talk about a movie,

Speaker 04966.86s - 4971.38s

we decide whether it belongs in the pantheon of all-time great spy movies.

Speaker 14971.74s - 4977.32s

So it's a lot of competition in there and movies as notable as North by Northwest or Goldfinger PRODUCT,

Speaker 04977.92s - 4991.98s

but also some obscurities like Hannah, five fingers. There's some kind of spy hardities mixed in the spy in black as well. And Bridge of Spies WORK_OF_ART. Bridge of Spies WORK_OF_ART. Yeah, Bridges Spies made the Knock List WORK_OF_ART, yeah.

Speaker 14992.24s - 5002.9s

So, yeah, Ian, so far you're one for one in terms of getting a film onto the knock list. So I'll go to you for the first vote. Is the Courier ORG making the list of the best spy movies of all time?

Speaker 25003.42s - 5006.88s

Can I just ask, how many are there on the not list at the moment?

Speaker 15007.28s - 5010.68s

Around about 25. That sounds right, yeah. Maybe 30.

Speaker 25010.88s - 5011.64s

Right. Yeah.

Speaker 15011.64s - 5016.52s

Okay, so it's quite a select band. Quite discerning, most of the time.

Speaker 05018.08s - 5021.62s

A couple questionable judgments, but yes.

Speaker 25022.64s - 5033.32s

I would say yes because I just really enjoyed the film and I think it's a really good depiction of an important piece of Cold War EVENT history.

Speaker 35033.88s - 5039.32s

So I would say yes from that point of view.

Speaker 25039.68s - 5049.32s

But I mean, I guess if we've put Bridger Spies PRODUCT on there, then I would say it's at least equal to that.

Speaker 35050.04s - 5050.64s

Okay.

Speaker 15050.86s - 5051.1s

Okay.

Speaker 25051.74s - 5052.24s

All right.

Speaker 35052.36s - 5053.12s

That's a yes.

Speaker 15053.26s - 5057.1s

One yes of three. Let's find out what Cam's vote is, Mr. Smith PERSON?

Speaker 05057.5s - 5059.96s

I am in very tricky territory with this one.

Speaker 15060.16s - 5064.4s

Okay. Because I really enjoy this movie. But I don't think it ever achieves greatness.

Speaker 05065.2s - 5066.94s

And that's something that I struggle with

Speaker 15066.94s - 5083.02s

because the born identity didn't make the list. Spy game didn't make the list. There's movies I legitimately would recommend to people out there. But when I'm making a list of what I'm trying to create this ultimate spy movie list, does the career belong on there?

Speaker 05083.42s - 5097.3s

I don't know that it does. I think it's a very good entertaining movie, but I don't know that it quite hits the kind of the heights that I hope for when I'm looking at a movie for the knock list. So are you on the fence or are you saying no?

Speaker 15097.9s - 5104.36s

I think I'm going to be a soft no on this one. A soft no. I didn't know we had a consistency scales

Speaker 05104.36s - 5106.14s

on the knock list and so, all right. A soft no. Well,'t know we had like consistency scales on the knock list and so

Speaker 15106.14s - 5107.96s

all right. A soft no.

Speaker 05108.24s - 5110.04s

Well, I like to qualify it because

Speaker 15110.04s - 5112.06s

you know when we're talking about cats and dogs three

Speaker 05112.06s - 5116.22s

a no to that is not the same as a no to the courier.

Speaker 15116.6s - 5118.4s

And there's been many films over the years

Speaker 05118.4s - 5120.16s

that have not made the knock list but they've still

Speaker 15120.16s - 5123.28s

had recommendations from us all the way back to something like

Speaker 05123.28s - 5126.08s

The Man from Uncle, the Guy Ritchie PERSON version of the film.

Speaker 15126.52s - 5130.56s

We both enjoyed it, but it wasn't, it didn't quite live up to what it should have been,

Speaker 05130.76s - 5139.28s

given with all the pieces put together. And I think that, yeah, I think that sort of highlights what you're saying there, Cam PERSON.

Speaker 15139.28s - 5159.22s

But now it means the answer forced to me, which is very rare when it's a three-way podcast. We have a yes from Ian, a no, a soft no, from Cam PERSON. What do I think? And this is an interesting one because I don't ever write down yes or no to the knocklist on my notes. I never write down. I just

Speaker 05159.22s - 5166.22s

know intrinsically what I want to do with it. And this is the first one in a very long time I've written knocklist question mark.

Speaker 15166.76s - 5250.36s

Oh, wow. Well, that was part of my strategy, was to leave you with the deciding vote. Thank you, yeah. Now everyone's listening to me and hoping I'll pick either for them or against him if you're a fan or not of this film.Ultimately, I disagree on something you said earlier, Ian PERSON, that this is equal to or slightly better than Bridge of Spies WORK_OF_ART. For me, I'd say Bridge of Spies WORK_OF_ART has this pipped a little bit. And there are some quite strong similarities between these two films. They are different in their own way, but there is a lot of connective tissue there as well. You've got sort of the bromance, that sort of stuff.Fish out of water, all that sort of joined in there too. But that film has this sort of Spielberg PERSON sheen to it, which I think lifts it up a little bit. And there are lots of things I loved about the courier. And you'll note our dislike section was very short, and there wasn't a lot of commentary against the film.And there were small things, if there were nitpicks. But there's something about it for me that just isn't ticking. There's just something inside of me that's saying it shouldn't. And so I think I'm actually, if we're going with Cam PERSON's hard or soft method, I'm also a soft no. So that means it's one yes and two soft nos,which I think still equal a no. And I'm sorry, Ian PERSON, but by the look of it, the courier is not making the knock list.

Speaker 25251s - 5264.74s

I think that's fair enough. I mean, what I'd say about the courier is I think it's more textured and nuanced than Bridge of Spies WORK_OF_ART. As you said, Bridge of Spies has got the Spielberg PERSON gloss on it,

Speaker 35264.98s - 5266.76s

but I think there's more,

Speaker 25267s - 5288.12s

far more depth to the characters in, in, in this. And, um, you know, I,I, I, I, I think that that's, that's what makes, makes,makes the film as alongside all the other bits like the cinematography and the set design and, and all of, all of that bit. But I will bow. It's your podcast.

Speaker 15288.9s - 5290.8s

You can overrule me.

Speaker 25291.2s - 5294.9s

To be fair, you've been more successful than most of our guests when people come on the show.

Speaker 15294.98s - 5298.02s

A lot of people have been on here three or four times and got a nose every time.

Speaker 25298.1s - 5299.84s

So you've actually managed to get one on the list.

Speaker 15299.94s - 5336.44s

It's true. That's pretty rare. And I will just add in. I was praising this film when I started talking about it at the beginning of the show. It's still a recommendation for me to go and check it out. If you haven't seen the courier and you've made it this far in the episode, finish listening and then go and stick it on, because I think you'll have a good time with it. I think for me, it falls into the category of like a spy movie fans spy movie. But should it be on the list of the best spy movies of all time? I don't think so. But I'd still say it's like, if you finish the noclos and like, hey, I'd like a few more,I would chuck things like this at you and like The Man From Uncle.

Speaker 05336.98s - 5337.28s

Yeah.

Speaker 15337.52s - 5341.48s

And I would say people, if you haven't seen it, check it out and then tell us why we're wrong.

Speaker 05342.14s - 5342.34s

Yeah.

Speaker 15342.5s - 5343.2s

Let us know.

Speaker 05343.36s - 5344.78s

We're usually often wrong.

Speaker 15345.72s - 5374.38s

So most of the time. We're used to it now at this point. It's been almost four years of talking about spy movies. We've taken a few knocks, if you're pardoned the pun. But there you go. One yes, two knows.The courier is not making the knock list the dossier on the film is complete and filed as classified and all that leaves me to do is say, Ian PERSON, thank you ever so much for being on the film is complete and filed as classified, and all that leaves me to do is say, Ian, thank you ever so much for being on the show. It's been a pleasure to have you back on SpyHards ORG,and it's been a blast speaking with you.

Speaker 25375.16s - 5386.6s

Well, it's been an absolute pleasure for me. Delighted to be back, and, yeah, if you have any other Cold War EVENT movies that you think you'd like my opinion on, then would love to be back.

Speaker 15387.18s - 5395.72s

I think the next one we have you back on for should be a slightly light affair. Something crazy, like just off the wall. I've got to fill my mind, actually.

Speaker 25397.6s - 5426.4s

It's not beloved, but it's certainly crazy and off the wall, as Cam PERSON said. But I won't spoil that now. I'll save that for the future. But before we let you go, Ian PERSON, we spoke about it at the beginning of the show. But where can people find more about Cold War Conversations EVENT? Cold Warconversations.com.We're also on Twitter at Cold WarPod. Just search for us on Facebook ORG. And we're on Instagram at Cold War Conversations EVENT.

Speaker 15427.2s - 5443.24s

There'll be links in the show notes below to all of those locations plus how you'll be able to find it on things like, you know, Spotify, Apple ORG Podcasts, places like that. But wherever you listen to SpyHards, you can also listen to Cold War Conversations EVENT. Subscribe to both. They'll make a nice little accompaniment on your podcast feed.

Speaker 05444.02s - 5448.14s

And also check the show notes and I'll have a link to the Pankowski PERSON episode for those who want

Speaker 15448.14s - 5452.56s

to follow up on the courier. There you go. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you, Ian PERSON.

Speaker 05455.62s - 5461.26s

Well, there you go, folks. That was our chat about 2021's The Courier WORK_OF_ART. I want to once again

Speaker 15461.26s - 5525.74s

say thank you to our guest, Mr. Ian Sanders from the Cold War Conversations ORG, for bringing his Cold War EVENT expertise onto the show. For the second time, it was absolute blast to have him. And if you haven't checked out Cold War Conversations EVENT, do so now with our blessing. And if you want to hear more about The Courier, don't forget to check out our two Spymaster interviews coming out this week. Firstly, with Mr. Tom O'Connor PERSON, the screenwriter for the film,the man who came up with the idea for putting the screenplay together and really saw the film through from conception to reception, which is a thing I like to say sometimes because it rhymes.And later this week, we are joined by Mr. Dominic Cook PERSON, the director of the film as well. So plenty of background knowledge on the courier and a lot of love for spy movies in that episode too. So check them both out and let us know what you think of them.Drop us a line at SpyHarspot ORG at gmail.com with your thoughts. But now the time has come. The question must go to my favorite Canadian NORP co-host. Mr. Smith, what are we talking about next week?

Speaker 05526.1s - 5534.78s

Scott, we're going back to the gritty 70s with the 1973 Burt Lancaster espionage thriller, Scorpio WORK_OF_ART.

Speaker 15535.22s - 5611.62s

That's right, Cam, if you want some 70s pessimism, a real downbeat, spy flick, but an interesting one to talk about Scorpio WORK_OF_ART is your film. Your mission, folks, should you choose to accept it, is to join us next week as we take a look at Burr, Lancaster's Scorpio WORK_OF_ART. If you like what you heard on the show,please consider supporting us over on our Patreon ORG. Patreon.com slash spyhards, or click the link in the show notes below. Lots of different membership options there and a ton of bonus episodes to gain access to, including our new show SpyHards OSS WORK_OF_ART on the small screen as we take a look at the television antics of some of our favorite spies from, you know, James Bond PERSON documentariesthrough to recently we had an episode out looking at the John Le Carre BBC adaptation of The Night Manager WORK_OF_ART. Want to check out there. Great discussion on a great show that I recommend people check out. But go and find that episode now. And if you don't already, make sure you follow us discreetly on social media at SpyHards ORG.That's S-P-Y. H-A-R-D-S on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram ORG. But until next week, folks, you'll find Cam PERSON and I trying our darn this to stay out of that gulag.