President Biden Agrees to Debate Former President Trump, the Results of the Maryland and West Virginia Primaries, and Michael Cohen’s Cross Examination at the Trump Hush Money Trial

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Welcome to Real Clear Politics on SiriusXM's POTUS ORG. Welcome to Real Clear Politics on Sirius XM for Wednesday, May 15th.

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I'm Andrew Waldworth, and I'm joined by RCP President and co-founder Tom Bevin PERSON and Washington Bureau Chief Carl Cannon. So Tom, it looks like we will have at least two presidential debates, the first on June 27th on CNN, and then a second on September 10th that will be hosted by ABC News. Biden released a video this morning, taking a shot at Trump PERSON. The clip, here's what he said. This video was released on Twitter or X or whatever we call it these days. And it dropped about eight o'clock this morning.

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Donald Trump lost two debates to me in 2020. Since then he hadn't shown up for debate. Now he's acting like he wants to debate me again. Well, make my day, pal. I'll even do it twice. So let's pick the dates, Donald PERSON.I hear you're free on Wednesdays.

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So there you have a little Clint Eastwood PERSON impression by the president there.

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Make my day, pal.

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Yeah. Right. What'd you make? Surprising. This is one of the, I think, surprise moments of the campaign. I'm not sure that, you know, strategy-wise, what's behind this?I mean, everyone was saying, look, Biden, was it this bad New York Times Siena ORG poll that sort of, you know, strategy-wise, what's behind this? I mean, everyone's saying, look, Biden PERSON was it this bad New York Times Siena poll that sort of, you know, was a bad guy, Biden sort of trapped in a bad news cycle and reignited all this talk about, you know, oh, Democrats NORP might have to ditch him and find somebody else. And they were, his folks decided, you know, listen, we got to get you out there and make a stand or something. I don't know. I don't know that this is going to be, we'll see how it turns out. I mean, maybe he's going to do great.And it'll be a positive moment in the campaign for him. Or maybe it's going to be, you know, we'll look back on this and be like, that's the day that Joe Biden lost the election when he agreed to debate Donald Trump PERSON. It's going to happen June 27th. It's going to be in Atlanta and the CNN ORG studios. And so, you know, I guess the only question leftis whether RFK Juniors ORG, I just saw a report that he's trying to, quote, worm his way onto the debate stage. I don't think they're going to let him. Well, Carl Trump PERSON responded. He said, let's rumble.So he's in, I guess. What do you make of it?

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Well, Trump PERSON would always want to debate this guy. But, you know, the Biden PERSON folks and their friends in the media had been floating trial balloons since the winner about why Biden wouldn't debate Trump PERSON. You know, remember that. And they said, you know, he'll just lie on the stage. He'll be a convicted criminal.We don't have to debate a person who just lies. And that was never going to fly. And it didn't fly with Joe Biden PERSON. You know, whatever his handlers wanted to do, remember Biden blurts out on a Howard Stern PERSON show, of course, I'll debate the guy. So Tom PERSON may have been surprised I was, and I said on this show, he's going to have to debate him. And now even his folks realize this for the reasons Tom PERSON cited,he's behind in all his polls. The person trailing in the polls doesn't refuse to debate. That's not the way this works. But it's worth talking about the conditions that the Biden PERSON campaign insisted on. It can be in June. The first one in June, second one in September, the presidential debates historically have been in the autumn. They're going to be before the, in the first debate, it'll be before the conventions. And there's going to be no crowd there.The Biden campaign also insisted on us, also insisted on three or four different networks. And the one, the first one, is the network CNN that, you know, you could argue is so openly hostile to Trump PERSON. It has been since he came on the scene, certainly when he was president. So trying to get a-

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Well, they're all openly hostile to Trump PERSON pretty much.

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I guess.

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I can't really argue that, Tom PERSON. So Trump PERSON acts like he has nothing to fear. He apparently doesn't fear Biden PERSON.

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But also Biden didn't want any audience there because they cheer for Trump PERSON and boo him, throw him off his game. I don't know why. That's what they said. That's not me. They didn't want the crowd there.It neutralizes the commission on presidential debates. I wonder if this is the end of that commission, which had a long run, you know, mostly served the country well. There were some controversies. One of them is the one Tom alluded to the third party, Kenneth. There was a 15-point threshold, which just seems capricious, but that is what it was. Bobby Kennedy, you know, was inching up towards that. This is clearly designed to keep him off the states. This is what the Biden PERSON campaign is insisted on. And I don't think, maybe you guys don't take Kennedy PERSON as serious as I do, but I don't think that's a good thing. It solidifies the duopoly. We had these two old guys. Did you guys see Mitt Romney's PERSON line?God, he had a funny line about it. He said, it'll be entertaining, informative, like two old guys on the Muppets.

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I don't think either one of those guys wanted RFK or wanted him on the stage. But I do, Tom PERSON.

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I want him to the stage. I think we should. I might have, I'd have Cornell, Western ORG Jill

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Stein PERSON, too. I think we should have debates and they should be open. And I don't think the duopoly should control everything. But, you know, what's interesting is, so the manner in which Biden PERSON chose to do this, he did it via video, he did it on Twitter ORG, he did it with bravado, make my day, pal, he took a shot at Trump, you know, I hear you're open on Wednesdays. I mean, it was very presidential.

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They could have released a statement. They could have, you know, done this a variety of different ways. And now, because they've chosen to do it this way, there's no wiggle room. He can't really back out of it. It'll look terrible if we get near June and he comes up with some excuse. Oh, he's a felon now.

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I said before he was convicted. So, you know, he's kind of like, he's locked into this now. And as I said, that may end up being a good thing for him and may end up being a terrible thing for him. We're going to have to wait and see. But I can tell you, I suspect this debate is going to do massive ratings. I mean like massive ratings. Yeah, you know, the announcement,

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which was a video and we played a little audio of it, so you could hear it, but you couldn't see it. If you do see it, a little television thing, there's six jump cuts inside a 15 second video. Normally you do a 15, you do jump cuts when you can't get one good take. And so you have to like take a bunch of takes and put them together. And so I don't know. A lot of people were talking about that this morning is whether or not, I mean, the guy couldn't get string of 15 second video together and they had to take multiple takes of it. But the other thing, Carl PERSON, you know, you were talking about the conditionsof the debate, one of the conditions, you said no live audience, but the mics will be set to automatically shut off when a speaker's turn is over. That's interesting. I don't know how that works technically. I don't know whether that means someone's actually sitting there and will flick a switch or it'll be on a timer or something. But it shows, I think, how much Trump PERSON wanted this debate that he would agree to all these conditions. Trump may not be aware of how often he interrupts people, Andy PERSON.

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Well, you're listening to Real Clear Politics on Sirius XM ORG.

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I'm Andrew Wallworth PERSON.

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I'm talking with RCP President Tom Bevin and Washington Bureau Chief Carl Cannon PERSON.

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So, Carl, what about the Commission on Presidential Debates ORG?

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We talked about that a little bit, but they've been iced out of this.

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They wanted to do three debates for the top of the ticket, one for the vice presidential office.

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So are they just out of this entirely now? Or do they get one debate, do you think, at the end of

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this thing? Or as you say, is this the end of this commission? My guess is, it's, well, it's the

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end of it for this cycle. I don't know if it's, and it may be the end of it forever. This was a reform.

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This was an idea to level the playing field. The criticism about it that I found valid wasn't anything the Biden campaign said or Trump complained about four years ago.

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I remember Trump PERSON pulled it.

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There was supposed to be a CNN debate and Trump PERSON pulled out of it on a real fig leaf.

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You know, Steve Scully was supposed to be the moderator and as a, in college, you know, he interned in the Biden PERSON's office.

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That was pretty weak.

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But they always said the commission that they were nonpartisan. And that wasn't quite right. They were bipartisan. And what I talked about, this idea of opening up the debates to other people. That was their weak link. But even there, they had some integrity about it.I thought they set the threshold way too high because it's hard to get to 15% if you don't have a political party until you debate. You know, if Bobby Kennedy's debating these two guys on stage, he's like it'll be at 40% the following day, for all I know. But even there, the Biden PERSON campaign wasn't even willing to take that chance. But I think they're done for this cycle. And maybe forever. I just don't know.

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Tom, do debates matter the end of the day? Not really. I think, you know, we've seen from time and time.

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Run that by Richard Nixon, Tom PERSON.

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Well, yeah. I mean, okay, that's the exception rather than the rule. I think in the modern era, you know, we've seen swings in the vote, right, after debates. But they're sort of short-lived. They don't fundamentally change the dynamic of the election. You know, we saw Obama when he came out for his first debate on his re-elect, he was kindof flat and was reminded of Reagan PERSON when he came out, just sort of, you know, he didn't have his stuff, right? He was kind of, and you saw him dip in the polls. Mitt Romney PERSON bumped up after that. And then Obama PERSON came back the next debate, and he was much more aggressive and sharper and everything sort of reverted to the mean, right? We were back to where we started. And so you can see,and there have been in primary debates, there have been instances where, you know, oops and things like that were there are events that transpire on stage that really do harm candidates' chances overall. But Tom PERSON, you're impeaching your own witness.

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You said they don't matter, but you're citing things that did matter. Primary debates.

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Well, how about general election debates? How about Ronald Reagan in 1980 against Carter PERSON? I mean, he really solitaire. Carter PERSON had gone around saying that this guy was a racist and a warmonger. And Reagan PERSON came across as very likable. It's a chance to introduce yourself to a broader audience, right? That's what a debate does.

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Joe Biden and Donald Trump PERSON don't really need to be introduced to a broader audience.

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The problem is the project changed any minds by what they do on that stage. Yeah, the problem is the broader audience has seen them.

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They can use a little less introduction. You're listening to Real Clear Politics ORG on Sirius

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XM. I'm Andrew Wallworth. I'm talking with RCP President Tom Bevin and Washington GPE Bureau

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Chief Call Cannon PERSON. We're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about the Trump trial and the gaggle of Republicans who were there yesterday voicing their support for the former president. And we'll look at the result of last night's primaries in Maryland GPE and West Virginia and what they may mean in November. So stick around.We'll be right back after this. It's real.

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It's clear and it's on POTUS ORG. It's Real Clear Politics ORG.

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Sirius XM-124.

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Real clear politics.

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A neutral, even-handed arbiter of political data. You're listening to POTUS, SiriusXM, Channel 124. Welcome back to Real Clear Politics on SiriusXM ORG.

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I'm Andrew Walworth, and I'm talking with RCP ORG Washington Bureau Chief Carl Cannon and RCP founder and president Tom Bevin PERSON. So Carl last night, my home state of Maryland GPE held its primaries. The big news is that David Trone, who spent about $60 million trying to win the Democratic nomination for Senate ORG, was defeated by Angela Also Brooks, the county executive of PG County GPE. And that sets her up for this very interesting race against the Republican NORP nominee,former Republican governor Larry Hogan. So what do you make of the matchup? What else was interesting about the results?

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Well, I was told at lunch a week ago by a Democratic NORP political consultant that Maryland will never again elect a white Democrat NORP statewide. And obviously, that's hyperbole. But it's interesting. Angela also Brooks, I guess she'd be the fourth African-American NORP woman to serve the United States Senate and only the third one elected.Gavin Newsom appointed LaFonsea Butler last year to replace Steinstein PERSON. So there's that. You know, David Trone, who's a congressman, he gave up his seat in the Maryland GPE congressional delegation. He spent all this money, 55 million of it, I think was his own money in this foxy way. He kind of was the Democratic version of Larry Hogan. So I assumed, and a lot of other people, did he be a tougher customer in November for Hogan PERSON?But maybe not. Also, Brooks PERSON is a well-trained machine politician. She's lepsap to make mistakes than Trone PERSON. He made a big one in the campaign. It was a minor slip of the tongue, but he said the word jigaboo on the, he meant to say bugaboo. And Alsa Brooks PERSON did not let him forget that. You know, and establishment Democrats NORP went on the thirdand six congressional districts in that state. So Maryland GPE seems to be reverting to form. We had these early polls that showed Hogan PERSON winning big.

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And it's going to be a tough race for the Republicans. Tom, what do you think? Yeah, I mean, so I interviewed Spencer Kimball PERSON from Emerson College about this on Monday about this race. And we were talking about the pretty dramatic shift that, you know, we saw in these polls. I mean, he did a poll in February, had thrown up 15. And then his last poll, which was just taken last week, had also Brooks up three points. And she obviously won by 12. So the surge was real and it was even bigger, you know, in the final days.But he also polled the general election. And again, it was pretty dramatic. I mean, he had the Emerson College poll in February. He had Hogan up seven against also Brooks PERSON. In the May poll, Emerson found also Brooks up 10 points. So a pretty dramatic shift there as well.And I think that's to, to Carl's point is Maryland GPE seems to, I think, have reverted to, you know, sort of the mean, if you will, of being a pretty deep blue state. I think it is going to be an uphill battle for Hogan PERSON. He's going to now, he has name recognition. He has, you know, he's a formidable candidate for sure.

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It's very popular as governor, but you can have all.

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He's experienced. He's been, he's been vetted. I mean, there's not a lot you're going to learn about Larry Hogan that you don't already know. And so I'm not sure that's true of also Brooks PERSON. I'm not sure how much scrutiny her record has gotten at this level at this stage. And so, but, but again, you know, I think it is it's going to be a tough fight for Larry Hogan to win over it, especially if, you know, again,we're in an environment where people are really tribal and Joe Biden PERSON's going to win that state by 20

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points. Yeah. You know, also Brooks, the results were also Brooks 54% troned 42%. So she really, you know, she really won that big. Hogan PERSON only got 62% of the Republican NORP primary vote, which was a little surprising to me. But this is a very Trumpy Republican Party out here. And out where I live on the eastern shore, the first district, he did not do very well out here in Trump country. live on the eastern shore, the first district. He did not do very well out here in Trump country. On the presidential level, Biden 86.3 percent PERCENT, uncommitted 10.4 percent. And Trump got 80 percent. Nikki Haley got 20 percent. So any lessons there at the top of the

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ticket? Well, it's the same. They got about the same, the uncommitted and, and Nikki He PERSONd, I got about the same, about 150,000 votes at the last counting. So, yeah, what you've got is a base of the party. The Democratic Party stuck with Biden and knows it. And the Republican Party stuck with Trump PERSON and knows it. But there's significant portions in each party who's not happy about it. And they keep, they keep telling us this. And all they can do is do these protest votes. It doesn't matter.But it makes you think, you know, there's base elections and then there's elections with the independents count. This is going to be both. Donald Trump to win has to get these Nikki Haley PERSON voters to vote for him and then get, you know, about half the independents. And you could say the same for Biden PERSON.He has to get these people who are dissatisfied with his presidency, think he's too old. You know, some Democrats NORP think he's too pro-Israel and other Democrats think he's too anti-Israel. He's going to get those Democrats NORP coalesce around him and then get the requisite number of independents. So they're looking at the same map.

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Well, Tom, the other race I was watching is West Virginia, Jim Justice won the nomination for the Senate ORG. On the Republican side, he's going to face off against Wheeling Mayor Glenn Elliott PERSON, who had won Joe Manchin's PERSON endorsement. Any surprise there or is this sort of...

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No surprises.

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And this is a, you know, again, West Virginia is a state that's going to vote for Trump PERSON by

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30, 40 points.

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I mean, it's, it is a real bastion of, you know, sort of pro-Trumpism.

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And as a result, that's why the, that's why the Democrats NORP, you know, they're basically starting the Senate election at a 50-50 situation. And then they've got a, so they're going to have to hold all of these other Senate ORG seats. That's why the map is so difficult for them. And again, we've talked about the, you know, the different races, Montana in particular, Ohio GPE is another one where these are states that Trump PERSON's going to win handily. And the question is whether those candidates,both incumbents and Tester and Sherrod Brown PERSON are able to get enough ticket splitters to hold on. And they might be able to. But it is going to be a struggle for them. The other interesting race there was the was the Republican NORP governor's primary. And, you know, Shelly Moore Capito PERSON, who's been, you know, an elected official in West Virginia for when she was in the House for seven terms, Senate ORG, lost. And which I thought she might have a put up a stronger showing than she did.So that was a, I don't want to say it was a shocker, but. There's a crowded field, though. Yeah. Big field. It definitely was. And the attorney general who ended up winning, I mean, the interesting thing, if you readhis bio, though, he wasn't, he wasn't born in West Virginia GPE. I mean, he lived a bunch of places not in West Virginia GPE and then eventually moved there and got elected. So it was like, it was kind of like a hometown girl versus I don't want to say a carpet bagger necessarily. But yeah, and she ended up coming up a little bit short.

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Well, Carl, we're talking about the trial a little bit. There's no trial in New York today. It's Wednesday. But yesterday Michael Cohen PERSON was on the stand. He was facing cross-examination. Cohen buttressed, the prosecution's case, testified that he made payments to Daniel ORG's quote to ensure that the story would not come out, would not affect Mr. Trump PERSON's chances of becoming president in the United States GPE.So what did you make of Cohen PERSON's testimony and how he's holding up under

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cross-examination? Well, the cross-examination focused not only on Michael Cohen's PERSON many previous lies. I mean, he went to prison perjury, but also his deep animus for Trump PERSON. You know,

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they used to be close to how they hate one another. And his desire for revenge, his less for publicity, his history of over-the-top insults against Trump PERSON that have continued during the trial. And, you know, why? Because the jury doesn't, isn't going to love Michael Cohen PERSON. But it's to put doubt in the jury's mind that Trump really didn't care at all what Maloney PERSON would think about the Stormy Janiels' accusations. That sounds esoteric, but it's not.The prosecution's case, and they've never really even bothered to say what their theory of the case is yet but they're building towards it is that is that these payments to stormy daniels somehow interfere with the election which you think

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about it is goofy it means it means non-disclosure agreements themselves are illegal well then the statute to say that it doesn't but i digress but but but cohen went to maybe went a little too far he said oh he didn't care about this at all about mona and nothing you know volunteered this quote oh you know how many times should it be easy for me to get somebody else i think the idea is to get the jury to think that he went over the top with that because the statutes is murky you know what percentage does it have to be you cared more about your wife and 51% 49% about winning the electionCohen PERSON of course he's not a subtle person oh he's all about the election and I think the idea the prosecution is to put in get them to think this guy hates Trump PERSON and he lies maybe he's lying about that too you mean the defense, not the prosecution. Excuse me. Yeah, Trump PERSON's lawyers are trying to get, to put doubt in there that maybe he doesn't, maybe he made up that part about Malani PERSON.Maybe he's exaggerating that. It's all, I mean, what else can they do? That's what they've got.

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Well, he's definitely not the ideal star witness.

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I mean, the guy is, you know, he has lied about it.

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And the other thing, too, is for anybody who had any sort of dealings with Trump pre, you know, when he was pre presidency, basically, back in the day when Michael Cohen PERSON was his main guy, he was the gatekeeper. I mean, if you were a media person, he's the guy you had to talk to. He would, and all these reporters who cover Trump PERSON and who have had their asses chewed out by Michael Cohen PERSON. I mean, he was an absolute. A fuck and a bully. Just, yeah, I mean, an absolute bully. I mean, he was the biggest asshole, you know, imaginable. And so here he is, like presenting himself on the stand as a sort of, you know, calm, mild manner.And maybe, you know, he's... Come on, Lanny Davis PERSON says he's seen the light.

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Maybe he has seen the light. I'm open to growth and change, Carl PERSON. Well, we're going to have to leave it there, you guys.

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You've been listening to Real Clear Politics on Sirius XM ORG. I'm Andrew Walworth PERSON. I've been talking with Carl Cannon and Tom Bebin. But don't go away to Real Clear Politics on Sirius XM. I'm Andrew Walworth PERSON. I've been talking with Carl Cannon and Tom Bebben. But don't go away. Real Clear Politics ORG will be right back after this.

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Online at Real ClearPolitics.com. On air on Sirius XM Channel 124. Real Clear Politics ORG is on

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This is Real Clear Politics ORG. On POTUS ORG, Sirius XM-124. Welcome back to the show.

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I'm Carl Cannon, Washington Beer Chief Real Clear Politics ORG, talking out with our White House correspondent Phil Wegman PERSON. Phil, you were at the White House today. Before I ask you about the story you had this morning about the FDIC ORG, are they giddy now about this debate? We talked about it earlier with Tom and Andy PERSON.Now Biden PERSON's all in. Are they nervous or are they happy?

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I think Biden PERSON world enjoys being underestimated because if you go back to 2020, the Trump campaign was talking about how Biden was over the

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hill, how he wasn't capable of standing on stage against someone as, you know, virile and strong

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as President Trump PERSON. And then the consensus was if you actually watched that Chris Wallace PERSON debate from start to finish, that Biden PERSON did a pretty able job. They're hoping for a repeat now. And I think that what will be interesting, though, is that in 2020, Trump was the beleaguered president. Now it's President Biden PERSON, who has to account for all of the

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challenges that he's been handling. Well, I guess they figure, I mean, the polls, you know, Biden PERSON's trailing this guy in states for, he was never behind him in 2020 in which he carried. So, I mean, I guess they figure, as I said, as I told Tom and a few minutes ago, you don't duck the baits when you're behind in the polls. Sometimes when you're ahead in the polls, they know that. Speaking of the White House, though, Phil, you got a lead on the story this morning on our front page. The White House did not offer its full faith and credit to the FDIC chairman who asked by Real Clear Politics about a bombshell 234-page investigation that detailed a toxic environment within the agency.What's going on there?

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So first we have to give credit to the excellent reporters of the Wall Street Journal who really dug into the workplace culture at the FDIC and published a report last November. This goes beyond just a manager occasionally berating employees. This goes beyond general workplace rudeness. What the Wall Street Journal ORG uncovered and then what the law firm, Cleary Gottlieb ORG, actually confirmed in their report,was a environment that was incredibly unprofessional, one that rivaled the worst behaving fraternity on college campuses. And so now the question is, now that there's been all of this sexual harassment and reprisals, the question is, how is the Biden administration going to reform the FDIC ORG? They have a chairman in there currently, you know, Grunberg PERSON, who says that he is capable and up to the challenge. But the issue is a lot of this bad behavior occurred under his watch. And beyond justthe question of bad behavior at issue here really is the financial regulatory agenda of the Biden administration. Because if Grunberg was to step aside, that would leave the FDIC ORG board deadlocked to two, and so going into an election year, that would basically take the president's financial regulatory agenda off the table.

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All right. Let's slow down, though, and let's explore that a little bit. What is it about the policies of the FDIC that the Republicans NORP don't like? And why do they blame Chairman Martin Gruenberg PERSON for it?

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So the Biden PERSON administration has pushed for different policies to ensure that banks have to have higher reserves, that they have to make all sorts of different reforms, general standard things that you would expect from progressive administration. Republicans NORP are, of course, opposed to that policy. But now this scandal, these allegations of what occurred at the FDIC under Groomberg's watch, that gives them an opportunity to go after him personally. And these Republicans NORP are really running a playbook where they see personnel as policy. And if this guy can be moved out of the way, perhaps because of some legitimate concerns and gripes about his leadership, then that would stymie the policy.

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You're listening to Phil Wegman, White House correspondent for Real Clear Politics. I'm Carl Cannon PERSON,

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Washington Bureau chief of RCP, and you're listening to us on Sirius X-Im's ORG Radio,

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POTUS channel, 124. Phil, Martin Greenberg was a, he's a Biden PERSON nominee. He served in the Obama and Trump administrations, I'll add. He was well regarded. His Senate ORG confirmation, if I recall, was on a voice vote, not necessarily unanimous because not everybody's there, but nobody objected to this guy. Now suddenly he runs into the the buzzsaw and he himself is not being accused of sexual harassment of these things, if I understand the report correctly. So that's, that's correct. Yeah. So what is he supposed to do? And is the president sort of caught up, you know, he made a bravado pledge during thecampaign that while he was running. And this was kind of aimed at Trump PERSON, you know, that anybody who engaged in bad behavior of this kind sex harassment or other kind bullying behavior. And his administration would be fired on the spot. That's what Biden PERSON said. Now, he isn't fired this guy on the spot. But, I mean, is Groomberry PERSON, is he a fault guy here?Is he a scapegoater? The Republicans NORP sort of conflating a bunch of things. And how much of it is his fault?

Speaker 31647.78s - 1665.88s

It's a yes and question in that no, he has not been personally accused of some of the egregious sexual harassment claims. But in the Cleary Gottlieb report, it does detail how Greenberg PERSON, who has been there for some time, has a history of berating employees.

Speaker 51666.14s - 1667.34s

He has a bit of a temper.

Speaker 31667.54s - 1673.3s

And I actually spoke to a whistleblower earlier today who talked about how this type of behavior,

Speaker 51673.84s - 1681.38s

this volcanic temper is well known within the agency on Capitol Hill ORG before the House Financial

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Services Committee on the House ORG.

Speaker 51683.96s - 1685.8s

You had members of Congress ORG pushing him

Speaker 31685.8s - 1716.42s

and asking if his temper was a problem as the agency was dealing with different bank failures earlier last year. So there are questions of whether or not he himself, because he has been there for so long, didn't see some of the bad behavior. And then there are specific questions about his conduct. But I think that, yes, you know, Republicans NORP, you know, they have some allegations against him personally. And then they also, you know, certainly see a convenient fault guy.

Speaker 51716.82s - 1774.88s

So he issued an apology in advance of this. He's going to be testifying, right, this week or next week. That's right. He'll be before the Senate Banking Committee tomorrow. Right. Tomorrow. So, you know, anticipating this, he issued a statement. As chairman, I'm ultimately responsible for everything that happens at our agency, including our workplace culture.And then he said, I want to thank, this is the part. I want to thank everyone who shared their experiences throughout the process. It's like Bill Clinton PERSON used to say, you know, we must love our critics. They show us our faults. I forget who he was quoting when he said that. And the Chairman Greenberg PERSON added, I know that doing so was difficult to anyone who experienced sexual harassment or other misconduct at the FDIC ORG. I again want to express how very sorry I am. And I also want to apologize for any shortcomings on my part. Phil, are the Republicans on the Senate Banking Committee ORG going to think that's a sincereapology? Are they going to treat him with respect? Are they just going to go after him?

Speaker 31775.48s - 1816.86s

My guess is that they are going to point to some of the current FDIC ORG employees who don't buy his apology. We got our hands on a statement written by numerous FDIC ORG employees who don't buy his apology. We got our hands on a statement written by numerous FDIC employees who describe themselves as both being from the far left and the far right and who are basically reminding Congress that this is not a partisan issue that the allegations laid out in the report are very serious. And they are urging Congress ORG to put pressure on this guy because according to that statementthat we were able to obtain through real clear politics, they don't have confidence in either the chairman or his management team being able to turn this thing around.

Speaker 51817.38s - 1834.16s

Now, several Republicans in Congress ORG have already called for his resignation. And I guess what I wonder is, is that just going to make the White House, is President Biden PERSON going to dig in his heels and say, I'm not, is this going to actually help Grunberg to help hold on his job? Or is the White House ORG going to sink in an election

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year? You know, we don't really need this headache. You know, it could because certainly while his predecessor was famous for telling people you're fired, Biden PERSON has not actually brought the axe down on many of his employees or many folks within his inner circle. I don't expect this to be much different. And we have seen already Democrats NORP circling the wagon around the FDIC chairman, arguing that the bad behavior was not mostly his and that the report, you know,

Speaker 01867.68s - 1906.62s

spent too much time focusing on him rather than some of these larger systemic problems at the FDIC ORG. You know, the joke about that agency is that employees are, you know, quote, found dead in chair because it's probably one of the cushiest gigs that you can get in all of Washington GPE. And so the argument is going to be this is something that was longstanding. This is not just, you know, one individual.Instead, there needs to be, you know, wholesale reform. And frankly, Canon, I think that some of these Democrats NORP are going to look at Republicans and say, wait a minute, you voted for this guy as well. Now you just saw a political opportunity to give the president a black eye.

Speaker 51907.12s - 1918s

But we'll see how this develops. But that's going to do it for this segment. I'm Carl Cannon, Washington GPE, Beard Chief Real Clear Politics. You've been listening to Phil Wegman, our esteemed White House ORG correspondent. And we'll be back after this.

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This is Real Clear Politics on Sirius XM ORG, XM.

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Not bound by any left-right contracts. Real Clear Politics on Sirius XM. ORG XM. Not bound by any left-right constructs.

Speaker 61928.74s - 1941.86s

Real Clear Politics ORG. Open to a wide political spectrum. This is POTUS on SiriusXM Channel 124 ORG. Welcome back to Real Clear Politics on SiriusXM ORG.

Speaker 21941.98s - 1956.72s

I'm Andrew Walworth, and I'm joined now by James S. Robbins PERSON. He is the Dean of Academics at the Institute of World Politics in Washington, D.C. GPE, and author of This Time We Win, Revisiting the Tet Offensive WORK_OF_ART. Jim PERSON, welcome to the program.

Speaker 01957.22s - 1958.34s

Hi, Andy PERSON. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 21959.06s - 1993.36s

So, Jim, I wanted to have you a piece in The American Spectator, ran this week, about the parallels people are drawing between today's campus protests against Israel and the 1960s anti-war protests. A lot of that is being driven by the baby boomers who participated or led those protests. The Wall Street Journal had a piece on Monday with the headline 1960s activists see parallels with today. So your piece takes a gimlet eye, a look at that. What do you see as the effect and the legacy of the student protests

Speaker 01993.36s - 2033.28s

of the 1960s? Well, I think the protesters today are definitely inspired by what they saw from their history classes about the anti-war movement or the civil rights movement. And of course, since most of those histories were written by the people who were in them, you know, who never left academia, never went out in the real world, and then they just wrote about how great it was when they were kids, that kind of has built this myth that those protests were popular, that they led to changes, that the student movement waswidespread. And unfortunately, all of that is false. Yeah, so tell me about that, because one of the

Speaker 22033.28s - 2043.34s

great things about your article is you actually have data, you have the polls from the time, and that to me is really interesting reading. So tell us about that. Well, the polling from the time

Speaker 02043.34s - 2085.2s

shows that these protests were not really all that popular, even amongst the student groups. And I find this most interesting. For example, a poll in 1967, that summer, the summer of love, right? Remember the much hyped summer of love. It found that 67% of college-age kids actually supported the war effort, and it was only 28% who wanted to withdraw. And among college-age, like draft-aged young men, the numbers were even higher. So the idea that all of the students were out there in the streets, they hated the warand all this other stuff, that's simply not true. Not even a majority did.

Speaker 22085.98s - 2096.84s

And yeah, I mean, one thing you point out in that article is that the young people were actually more hawkish than the general than the general population. How does that compare with numbers today?

Speaker 02097.64s - 2129.84s

Well, I don't think that you'll see widespread student support today for protesting. Although it's interesting that according to a Harvard Caps ORG poll, among the younger generation, there does tend to be less of a pro-Israel NORP stance than amongst the older generations who are 90% pro-Israel. So those numbers have eroded a little bit when you get down to younger generations, probably because of all of the stuff they've been taught about settler colonialism and God knows what else in the schools today.

Speaker 22130.34s - 2195.7s

Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that because you and I've talked about this, Jim PERSON and our old friends, we talked about this from time to nine, but there was something, it was called the Long March through the Institutions, which is the idea from the 60s. I think it was Rudy Deutsch, if I'm right, who is this German NORP radical. But the idea that if the left wanted to really triumph in America GPE, there was never going to be a revolution per se. But by sort of burrowing into the institutions, they would be able to sort of change the culture from within.This is sort of Herbert Marcosa and the Frankfurt School ORG and all the things that people may remember from political science if they ever taught it in college. But is that part of this story as well that this is really, because you hear people talking about outside agitators, but aren't the real agitators inside the institution itself? Isn't this sort of now what they're being taught by that generation that you mentioned came out of the 60s and never left the academia?

Speaker 02196.58s - 2212.04s

Oh, that's good. Inside agitators. I like that. Not just outside. Yes. One difference between academia now and, say, back in the 60s is in the 60s, amongst the faculty, you had diversity of intellectual thought.

Speaker 22212.48s - 2236.52s

You might have a conservative professor next to a liberal, next to a radical. There was a wide variety of people that you were learning from. Today, that has become almost completely radicalized amongst the professoriate, particularly in some of the less scientific fields, more the humanistic fields, where there's really no quality control in terms of reality.

Speaker 02237.56s - 2291.64s

I mean, you know, if you're building a bridge, you're building a bridge. There's a certain objective quality to that. If you're talking about political science, well, anything goes. So particularly in those fields, they've been completely taken over by the radicals. And it's been amusing to me as someone who's not particularly radical to see some of the liberal administrators who are more moderate maybe, they're more easygoing kind ofpeople, but completely at a loss of what to do about these radicals in their midst, but they're the ones who brought them in through their admissions process, through their hiring processes, and whatever else they did. So it's kind of an interesting revenge of the radicals on the liberals, you know, on that side of the spectrum. And it also underscores how kind of useless college degrees have become these days.

Speaker 22292.08s - 2338.12s

Well, I'm talking with James S. Robbins PERSON. He's the dean of academics at the Institute of World Politics in Washington, D.C. GPE, and he's the author of This Time We Win, Revisiting the Tate Offensive WORK_OF_ART. And I did want to talk, I want to talk about two more things, but I did want to talk about the war itself a little bit, because you make a pretty compelling case in that book about how, well, the reality of the Ted Offensive, but tying that back to protests. I mean, what are the unintended consequences do you feelof today's protests? Because certainly the intended or unintended consequence of ending the war in Vietnam did not bring the war to a closure that I think was good for the West. Let's just put it that way.

Speaker 02338.84s - 2391.58s

No, I don't think so. And I think that the things that the protesters are talking about, you know, from the river to the sea and things like this would be highly bad for the United States strategically, definitely bad for Israel GPE. So I don't think that they're representing rational policy for the United States GPE. But again, what they're doing on these campuses isn't popular in itself. Take for, here's during the 60s, 1969, the moratorium march. It was like the biggest series of marches that they had,and it culminated in this massive demonstration in Washington GPE, D.C. And this is looked back on by the protesters is like one of the great moments in this whole movement where they, you know, descended on Washington and taught Nixon PERSON a lesson and stuff. Well, Richard Nixon at the time, his Vietnam war policies had 77% approval by the American NORP people.

Speaker 12391.84s - 2415s

And in fact, he was drawing troops strength down in Vietnam GPE. I mean, the protesters should have given him a medal. You know, he was kind of doing what they wanted. But instead, they called him a war criminal. Okay, fine. The point is, for all that demonstration, all the effort they went to,it really made no difference in terms of policy. And it made no difference to the American NORP people who were against what they were proposing. Yeah.

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And people should remember that Richard Nixon PERSON was reelected in a landslide. 49 states.

Speaker 02421.62s - 2422.06s

Right.

Speaker 22422.24s - 2457.76s

So something you wrote in the article, I'm just going to read the quote because I thought it was so important. You say the main target of the protests are the protesters themselves. Campus rallies are a form of mobilization, indoctrination, and radicalization. The organizers, funders, and outside agitators involved with this movement understand this dynamic very well. It is the reason they are doing it we are watching them in real time mint PERSON the next generation of true believersto keep the myth and the revolution alive just explain that what that uh what you're getting at there

Speaker 02458.56s - 2552.36s

well i've done a lot in looking at mass movements and how you radicalize people in terrorism that's my academic background and what you radicalize people in terrorism. That's my academic background. And what you see when they bring these kids in, these college age kids who are already impressionable, right? I mean, there's a reason why cults try to go recruit people on college campuses. They're intellectually curious. They're, you know, they're out of the house for the first time or something like that. Okay, so they're vulnerable kids.And so they bring them into these encampments. They're in their wearing costumes. They're chanting, engaged in this highly ritualized behavior. I don't know if you've seen any of the live streaming of this stuff, but it's pretty scary. You know, there's a lot of call and response and indoctrination. Well, they're just radicalizing these kids. They're turning them into clones of themselves for, you know, shock troops for whateverkind of radical stuff they want to do. And to me, that's the most troubling aspect of this. And you could talk about free speech or the exchange of ideas, but that's not what it is. It's a type of psychological and emotional molding that's going on where they're creating this kind of radical true believer mindset out of these impressionable kids. I mean, why not just have a stand-up Oxford-style debate about this? Why have an encampment? Well, because the encampment,you're controlling people for 24 hours a day. And so you can drum into them this ideological message, this adjut prop. And that's extremely damaging, I think, for the future.

Speaker 22552.9s - 2575.74s

Well, Jim, fascinating stuff. I've been talking with James S. Robbins PERSON. You can read his piece on today's campus protests in The American Spectator. And you're listening to Real Clear Politics ORG on Sirius XM ORG. I'm Andrew Walworth. So on behalf of Carl Cannon, Tom Bevin, and all of us at RCP ORG. Thank you for listening. We'll be back tomorrow with more Real Clear Politics. Have a great evening.

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The Politics of the United States. This is POTUS on SiriusXM Channel 124 ORG.