PMP396: Leadership Approaches to Conflict Resolution with Jen Schwanke and Will Parker

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Hi friends, it's Will Parker here from Principal Matters ORG, the school leaders podcast. We are excited to announce that we are approaching our 400th episode. Can you believe it? To make this milestone even more special, we'd love to hear from you. If this podcast has inspired, helped, or encouraged you, would you consider sharing your thoughts with us? It's easy.Find a quiet spot. Record a 60-second voice memo on your phone and email it to Will at William D. Parker ORG. Would you consider sharing your thoughts with us? It's easy. Find a quiet spot. Record a 60 second voice memo on your phone and email it to Will at William D. Parker.com. We are eager to hear why the show resonates with you, your favorite moments or anything you find particularly thought-provoking or funny. Thanks in advance for your contributions.And thank you for doing what matters. Principal Matters podcast, episode 396. for your contributions. And thank you for doing what matters. Principal Matters podcast, episode 396. Hi, friends. This is Will Parker, host of Principal Matters ORG, the School Leaders Podcast. Each week we bring you inspiring,innovative and imaginative ideas for your own school leadership. This week, I'm on with my co-host, Jen Schwanke PERSON, deputy superintendent from Dublin City Schools ORG, author of four great books.Jen Schwonkey PERSON, welcome back to this conversation.

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Hi, everyone. It's so good to be back. I always love it. We were joking offline that we never run out of things to say, and we have some things to say today, too. So that'll be fun.

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We do.

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So like a couple of weeks before this recording takes place,

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Jen, I was in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I had the opportunity to work for a full day with a group of 21 assistant principals, all of whom are in a program that the district offers as they are prepping for building principal positions. It was such a, I love, you know, I do so much of my work virtually, Jen PERSON. So when I get a chance to spend a whole day with my people in a room full of principles, it just makes my heart so happy. We had an exit ticket assignment as we were heading to lunch.I just said, hey, take that question you're really chewing on, put it on a post-it, sticking on the door on your way out. And so I collected all of those and was able to respond to a couple in that session. But then I brought them home and thought, I can't wait to share these again, because these are such great questions for us. And so we're going to just take the first one today. And these are actually what I did was I took the 21 questions.And I tried to look for common themes among them and even combined some of them together. So here's question one for listeners. We're going to be talking today about leadership approaches to conflict resolution, which is great to have an author

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in the room. We just wrote a book on conflict resolution. But here's how the questions phrased, Jen PERSON. How can leaders effectively guide and protect their teams without appearing confrontational,

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especially in sensitive situations like managing resistance from individuals loyal to previous admins or calming angry parents? Now, that's a mouthful. But we can go lots of different directions, but let me give you an opportunity to respond to that and then I'll add some thoughts too.

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Well, let me first address the first part of your question, Will, which is about how to frame your mind for resolving conflict. And I want to be careful, too, even with the word resolving. Sometimes it's managing it. Sometimes it's facilitating it. Sometimes it's ignoring it is the best approach. And what I encourage folks to do when I talk to them is follow the cycle of anticipate, analyze, and act. It's ideal if you're not taken aback by conflict. If you know that it's coming or you know why it would come, you know how it began, what the antecedentswere, and so on. And that's all part of the anticipate process. Now, obviously, we can't always do that, right? Sometimes conflict flares up without anyone even knowing it was coming. But still, to know the people, to know the players, to know the setting, the environment, the climate of your school. And while we were talking about how there's going to be listeners hearing this as their school year wraps up, and that's a perfect example of a time where emotions are high. You know, a lot is due, a lot needs turned in, a lot to wrap up. And so tempers canflare quickly. So even the time of year can be something you use to anticipate conflict. And then the second step is analyze it. And this is where I tell folks, you know, slow down, think, don't add impulsivity to impulsivity. Think about the why. Think about your intended outcome. Slow down. Recognize if there might be no action needed on your part. You know, if it's just a little spat that is going to be forgotten in 10 minutes, there's nothing needed to be, you know, nothing you need to do.Or it might be something where you think, I got to put a pretty robust system or protocol in place to avoid this. And then that, of course, leads to act. And that's whatever action that you feel is best for the players involved in the conflict. It's what you actually do, even if what you do is nothing. It should be a deliberate choice, what you're doing to address the conflict.I love that.

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And I think, I know we've talked about this in other settings, but I think it's worth repeating that knowing the time of the year that you're in obviously helps you to anticipate what kinds of conflicts you may be. And I know I'm a broken record, but I'm going to say this, especially since we're releasing this recording in May. And that is that at the end of a grading period, especially the end of a school year,everyone's tensions rise. Students are concerned about their grades. Teachers are concerned about finishing their grades. Parents are looking at their grades. And in that moment of additional pressure, sometimes people respond in ways that are surprising and confrontational. And so just expect it. And it is a, you know, as an educator, I used to kind of put myself in that mindset.Instead of dreading those days, I just walked in with my eyes wide open, recognizing today people are probably going to be a little stressed out because we're stepping into these moments where really big decisions are being made that could affect next year or the year

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after or years to come. Right. Right. And I think you've you've nailed it there with the particular type of emotions people are feeling at any given time during the year. So how people feel in August is different than in October, different than December, February, and so on. And you're right, the end of year conflicts tend to be anticipation or anxiety about what this is going to mean next August or September. You know, what is this student going to bring to the classroom next year? What is this colleague going to behave likenext year when we're sharing a classroom space, say? It tends to be worry about what's next. Not always. But I think it's important to know and look for trends too. Like I used to, as a principal, I'd be like, I know exactly what's going to happen when it's, we would call it the harvest party in October, I know what's going to happen. There's going to be classrooms who celebrate in one way classrooms that don't celebrate. I'm going to get a few parent emails. We're going to have to work through this.It was as regular as a clock that that was going to happen. And so like you said, well, you know, you got to keep your eyes wide open and say this is what today's going to bring.

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So talk to me about the difference between resistance and uncertainty because sometimes when we're addressing things and we're trying not to appear confrontational, we'll talk about that in just a minute. Right. But why is it helpful for you to think about the difference between resistance and uncertainty?

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When I, and I know you do this a lot in your work too, it goes back to that whole idea of put yourself in someone else's shoes. Sometimes when people are feeling a certain way and they, it manifests itself in conflict, you know, a power struggle with a student or a colleague, fighting something that just doesn't need fought. You know, it could be all sorts of types of conflict. And if you put yourself in the shoes of the others, you might see that they're truly resistingsomething. They're resisting a mandate. They're resisting an expectation. They're resisting a student's behavior, a colleague's behavior, whatever. Or they're not sure. And this is what I meant between discern between resistance and uncertainty.Sometimes people are just not sure what's going on for lack of a better description. What happened? What does this mean? Why did someone speak to me that way? Why isn't anything being done? It's being uncertain about the antecedes that led to thesituation and how it's going to end. When people aren't certain, when they feel a lack of control, or when they feel like they're not being heard, it again manifests itself in higher emotion and responses that maybe aren't as disciplined as we'd like. And so as a principle, I tried to think, okay, is this real resistance? Is this something that somebody's just pushing back on? Or do they just need more information?Do they just need me to say, yeah, I see you. I get it. There's a lot we don't know about what's going to happen and approach it that way. So I think that's an important distinction to make when dealing with

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someone who's feeling conflict. Yeah. And I think that begs the question to the leader of asking yourself, do I actually understand the emotion or the resistance or this feedback that I'm receiving from this person before I respond? And so sometimes it might help us to first ask some questions before we make the assumptions that we know what people are asking us, if that makes sense? In other words, I know as a leader sometimes it's really easy for me to assume I think I know what this person's asking, and I know the answer, and I'm going to

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tell them. But maybe just that 30 seconds of probing might help me provide a better answer.

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Right. Right. Right. Tell me what you mean by that. Or let me understand exactly what's going

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through your head. Right. Exactly. To ask that question. Right. So let's,

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let's take the second part of this question, which is, because this question actually has so

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many things packed within it. Right. So the next part of this question is,

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without appearing confrontational. So I want to talk about that for just a minute,

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because this person's asking,

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how can leaders effectively guide and protect their teams without appearing confrontational? Thoughts about that?

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Well, I'm going to turn my thoughts back on you. So get ready. One of my greatest weaknesses as a leader, I've gotten a lot better, but is a tendency to feel defensive when dealing with confrontation. So talk to us about

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you. Have you, is that a tendency of yours? And when you have reacted with defensiveness, how has

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that turned out? Yeah. I think all of us, especially when we are unsure of the, of where we fit into the context of where we're working,

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can tend to respond defensively.

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I'm thinking especially about my early years when I was still unsure of some of the questions people were asking me or in my early years as a school administrator, unsure of the trusts or loyalty that had been built among me and other staff members. And so sometimes those questions could be perceived as personal attacks or maybe someone undermining the position that I have or not trusting me. And so those dynamics can work their way into just even how you perceive when someone'sapproaching you. I think what I've discovered over time is the more confident you get in your practice, the less defensive you become. I don't know.

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What about you, Jen PERSON? I think that that would be exactly how I would describe it for my own journey. When I wasn't confident, I felt defensive all the time because even a pretty innocuous question would make me think, oh, they're criticizing me. They're coming after me. I didn't do something right. I dropped the ball somehow. And so many times that's not it at all. I now actively work against feeling defensive and I know the physical signs. I know how it feels in my belly and I knowhow it feels in my, you know, against my skin as though I have to defend. I have to fight, you know, I have to defend myself. And now I know that is no good. I have to get beyond that. And I felt a smidgen of it a couple weeks ago in my district. there was a impending big storm, big weather. And there was a lot of uncertainty, obviously, about if this storm would hit. And we got a lot of questions, you know, what are you going to do? How are you going to handle this?What are you going to say? And I kept feeling defensive. And then I thought, wait a minute, this again is coming from people who are really uncertain and they're looking for leadership. And so rather than be defensive and say something like, listen, we're all doing the best we can with very little uncertain information, I could just simply say, I hear you.This is a really confusing day. And it wasn't about me. I think defensiveness sometimes narrows the problem to, within ourselves to, well, I must have done something wrong. This must be an attack on me. And most of the time it's not. It's someone who just needs a little more information or needs some

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support. I agree. The other thought I would like to add to this tension around not appearing confrontational is something I'm sure I've said before. But if your goal is to make everyone happy, you're going to fail. Right. If your goal is to help people, then you're probably on the right track. And so however that comes across to others, maybe perceived as confrontational, but we can't avoid, we can't avoidsaying what needs to be said or directing people in the directions they need to go because that's the responsibility that we have. And so I think sometimes maybe our fear of coming across as confrontational might cloud the, well, I just like to think about this, too, and this may be a Brunea Brown PERSON quote, that, you know, clarity is kindness. And so sometimes we don't want to be clear because we're afraid that's going to sound too director someone might think we're being confrontational, but we can't avoid those moments. And we're certainly as leaders almost never going to make everyone happy with the decision we're making, but that comes with the territory. Let's take a moment to thank our sponsors and then we'll be right back.Everyone talks about the power of data-driven instruction, but how do you actually get the right insights and know the best next steps? The secret is I-XL PRODUCT. I-XL PRODUCT helps you easily assess performance and determines the best path forward for each student. Whether you need data for benchmarking or intervention planning,I-X-L PRODUCT can do it all. And I-X-L PRODUCT doesn't stop at assessments. It also provides you with everything else your school needs from a standards-aligned K-12 curriculum to actionable analytics. I-XEL's online learning and teaching platform is research proven to improve student outcomes and is used by 95 of the top 100 U.S. GPE school districts. If you also want to start driving real progress, get started today at Iexcel.combackslash p.m. Are you ready for a tool that can help you elevate engagement and foster a culture of care and connection within your organization while also saving you time? Introducing Libra PRODUCT, your gateway to turningthose culture-building insights into action. Discover how Libra transforms the way you engage with your team. Imagine integrating all your engagement efforts with platforms like Outlook or Gmail PRODUCT into one seamless experience. With Libra PRODUCT, you focus on people, not software. Celebrate the achievements that make your team unique from personal milestones to professional accomplishments. Ensure you and your team have the means to meet their connection goals, fostering a workplacewhere everyone feels valued and understood. Don't let another day pass where engagement is just another item on your to-do list. With Libra, embark on a journey to increase efficiency, improve engagement, and cultivate a caring workplace. Ready to see the difference? Request a demo today at LibraHQ.com ORG.That's L-E-B-R-A-H-Q dot com and take the first steps towards a workplace where everyone feels connected and cared for. Libra PRODUCT, where engagement meets genuine care.

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What are your thoughts? Yeah, when you and I talked about this question ahead of time, I got literally stopped at the word confrontational.

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That to me implies all of those body language pieces that can be perceived as scary or hostile or power struggles.

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And so I never, I don't, I think it's rare that a true confrontation should happen in education. That's why I'm always saying, let's pause, let's wait, let's think about this, give it some time, because confrontation tends to be out of emotion. Somebody just can't take it anymore, right? I'm done. And body language for confronting someone tends to be pointing, clenching the jaw,standing up, posturing. My own weakness here is crossing my arms. Whenever I feel like I need to be in a situation of confronting my arms are crossed because and that this, this instinct to protect myself, right? But confronting a person, I think never goes well. I think confronting a problem always goes well. So I'm just being very careful with that word because I used to think, you know, if I was displeased with a situation, I would think,well, someone needs to confront that person. I now would never do that. If you're using the word

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confront, you're still in a place of emotion. More like address, talk about, sit down with, discuss. That's what you want to do with humans. And you do that in, in an effort to confront a problem, if that makes it.

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You know, it seems so small, that distinction I'm making, but no one likes anyone to come at them, especially not without them knowing it's coming. So that's just something to keep in mind in,

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in my experience. Now that's so wise. Let's take a minute and respond to the parts of this question that are a little bit more conditional because, and again, just for listeners to know, when I placed this question together, I was actually combining a couple of different questions. And so because there was one person's question in particular about how to manage resistance from individuals loyal to previousadmins or calming angry parents. And so their concerns about confrontation were around that team dynamic. Like, okay, what if I'm working with people that I'm the new leader and, but they're,

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they see things the way they used to be done. And so talk about that for a moment, Jen PERSON. If you're that person stepping into that situation, what are some things you would have in mind in that kind of

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situation? Well, you know how I told you that when we were talking, I got stopped on the word confrontation. I got, I also got stopped on the word loyal. That's a very, very weighted word. And I think you and I have talked before where I've told you, I have a very very weighted word. And I think you and I have talked before where I've told you I have a very conflicted relationship with the word support in terms of principles and how it's used for and against principles. Same with loyalty. And I think loyalty and support are the same word in that context.And so when we think about a principle who's dealing with a loyalty to a past administration, that brings us back to, okay, are they resistant to the new administration? Or are they trying to be loyal to the past administration by showing resistance? Or are they just not certain? And I will always say, I think, that loyalty to a staff, to teachers, to students, to parents, whatever, that doesn't mean always saying what they want to hear. And it doesn't mean always agreeing with them. So you kind of have to redefine what loyalty means to you and what youwant it to mean to your staff. Loyalty can mean, hey, I'm always going to have your best interest in mind. That certainly doesn't mean you get everything you want when you want it. So I think loyalty to a past administration is very tricky for principals, right? Because they want to honor the past. They want to honor, they don't want to break up any relationships that used to work or any perceived feelings people have. But on the other hand, you want your staff to be loyal. I'm using air quotes there.Loyal to you and your mission. And so I don't, I don't know what you'd add to that will, but I think it's worth breaking down what we mean when we look for loyalty. Yeah.

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Well, I'm going to speak to something that I would have said to the younger will. And I'm talking about that first couple of years at administrator will when I struggled so much with decision making and trying to, you know, student behavior, evaluating teachers for the first time, encountering resistance in ways that I had never imagined. And then being able to look at people on my team and know who could I trust to go to for input and feedback, who is going to be able to both guide me, correct me, support me, all those things. And this is whatthe two words that are coming to my mind, Jen PERSON, right now, is learning the difference between the importance of trust versus the importance of winning. And so if you're using that word loyal, because it's loaded with, I need to know that I'm going to be able to be seen as right. I'm going to beable to win in confrontations. I'm going to be able to keep the upper hand. There's this, I just need to caution you that if your goal in leadership is to quote unquote win, then you're going to be sorely disappointed. Right. Because if that whole winning attitude is how you approach teachers and kids and families, you're going to find out really quickly that that's not service. That's self-interest and self-preservation.If your goal, however, is to gain trust and to work together towards the best end of what's what's the best interest of these kids and these teachers and these families in our school as a whole, that's a whole other conversation. And so I just want to make that distinction.

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Well, and you, it's interesting, this is like a podcast on words. It's interesting you use the word winning because I was working with a group of principals at not too long ago at a conference. And I said one line that I've always felt to be true. And the nods and the cheers and the class that I got, I said, education is a very, there's an underground of competition in education. And, you know, it's competing for the principal's favor. It's competing to be principal's favor. It's competing to be thefavorite teacher. It's competing to have the best lessons. It's whatever the competition is. And I think among principals sometimes it can be a competition to be the very best principal, to be better than the last principle, to be the most liked principal. And then that leads to your word winning. And so it would be a hollow win, though, if you got to the win through mistreating people, confronting people, being aggressive, you know, you may be feared or you may be respected. I don't even, what the goal is to win. But you have to think aboutif you're looking at it in terms of winning, winning a battle, winning a person, winning favor, that's probably misguided. I'm saying the exact same thing that you are, that you were.

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I'm going to tell a, yeah. Go ahead. Tell a story. I want to tell a funny story that's just coming to mind. I love that quote you said, an education as an underground of competition. And sometimes we, we fail to recognize when that's happening to us. I was the co-assistent principal with a number of different individuals. And one of my friends, in particular, one day, I had been doing the work longer. So I was mentoring him and his new work as an AP. And he came to me one afternoon. He goes,well, I have a kid sitting in my office who got reported for being tardy to class. And I have just been reading in the Rite Act LAW because he's at the place now where he's been tardy enough that I'm going to have to sign him to disciplines. And he's just swearing to me that the class that I just said he's tardy to, he's not. And I know because the teacher standing outside that room was just was standing right there when the student showed up tardy and he keeps telling me no the teacher in you are both incorrect because the time hadn't wasn't marked yet tardy and he he said i actually um was so frustrated

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with him that i opened up the camera in that hallway and i could see the clock in that hallway so I could just prove him wrong. And I just watched the video without him

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present and he's right. Like the time hadn't turned yet. So I'm not sure why this teacher thought class had started, but she was, she sent him down here and shouldn't have. He's like, what do I do now?

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Yeah, exactly. And I said, well, this is when you apologize.

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Because when you call it wrong as an adult, then you can just own it.

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And he goes, and he said, this is part the way. He goes, do I have to like it? And I said, I said, you don't have to like it, but you have to do it because it's not about winning.

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It's about what are we doing. That's going to best tell kids. Now, having said that, let's talk to that leader who does sense this resistance or this weird dynamic of people that may have voiced the, that's not the way we used to do it or whoever was here before is not you. And I don't know, Jim PERSON, what thoughts you have toward that. I think I would just start off by saying, welcome to leadership. Every situation you step into, you're stepping into the shoes or the legacy or the history of someone else. And you need to be you and be comfortable with the fact. I would think, first of all, you should admire it if people felt admiration or loyaltytowards someone who was there before you. But you're not going to convince others to go in a new direction by confronting that loyalty or by doing a comparison game. I just think sometimes it's important to recognize, but if that's a reality, it's a reality. But I'm going to still need to make decisions thatare based on best practice and our policies and consistency and fairness and firmness. So I don't

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know, what would you add to that? As you're talking, I'm thinking about my friend Tish PERSON, who, you know, sadly and tragically, she lost her husband. And she had, she eventually went out into the dating world again. And she dated several people who didn out into the dating world again. And she dated several people who, who didn't want the memory of her ex, who wanted to come in and be part of her life and pretend that had never happened, right? And her current partner, they're engaged now. She says he, he honored the past.He respected the love I had for John PERSON. It was never a threat that I had been in love before. They're merging households and they're doing it with respect and love for the past, but also hope for the future. And so that I was thinking of Tish PERSON as you were talking because a principle should come in again, not to compete with any legacy and just say, you know, here's who I am. And we're going to start our, we're going to blend and start our own future together. And to that end, I think we have to remember it takes time. You know, Tish PERSON would tell youthat her fiance was never in any hurry. He knew she needed to grieve. He knew it might take years. And so principals in the same sense can be like, you know, I'm going to be here with you. And we're going to have our bumps in the road. But that doesn't mean I'm better or worse than the previous principle. I'm just here. And how can we

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develop a relationship together? So, you know, it's probably a little bit too much of an aggressive analogy I made there. But but really it's about time and patience and confidence in who you are and you sure hope it'll work out for a long-term relationship and you'll just do your best. Well, there's so much maturity in that. And I think that's a great application that in real relationships, we want people to know us for who we really are. And let's just sit in that reality and not ignore the reality.And so if you're stepping into a school situation where you're inheriting a long legacy of someone who's gone before you,

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and maybe that was great or maybe there's things that need to be changed, it just is what it is.

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And so, again, you and I said this earlier, defensiveness typically happens when we are less secure in ourselves. So take a breath and just recognize that you're qualified to be in this work that you're doing. And as you grow in the work, you'll feel more and more confidence. But sometimes just like when you're stepping into new teaching, you have to demonstrate that confidence in a place where your calm exterior eventually matches up to the experience that you're going to have so you can really feel that sense of confidence.

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You know what's a fun trick I started to do and it really is fun. And again, I think this comes with confidence and a willingness to be wrong. I've learned to go into situations where I think I might have a better way or I really want to lead through a conflict or whatever. I will say, okay, here's how I see the situation. I want to be wrong here.I really want to be wrong. Convince me I'm wrong. And that tells my audience, whether it's one person or 30, I am open and willing for you to tell me what you think. I will admit if I'm wrong. I admit I don't have all the information and I need you to help me with this. So it's just a fun little trick. I think teachers could do it too. I think principals, assistant principals,you know, here's how I see it. Here's how I think we should go forward. Convince me I'm wrong. And then listen, you know, listen to what they have to say. If nothing else, it'll be a lively conversation where everybody gets a chance to admit they have learned something. What a great takeaway, especially

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when I think about the, I've been studying the five voices by Jeremy Kubitschek PERSON and Steve Cochran and they talk about how everyone on your team has a different voice and you do too. People hear you differently. And sometimes the guardians on our teams are the resistors. And an immature guardian can be a negative Nancy PERSON, but a mature guardian can really save your butt if they can see that you're getting ready

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to step into something that's going to harm you or the school. And so I love that. How about engaging

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that guardian with that question? Convince me I'm wrong. Right. Tell me I'm wrong. Just help me understand. I've even said before, if we have,

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you know, a situation where let's say a student is really going sideways, I'll be like,

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I really want to be wrong here. I badly want to be wrong. And that helps too. I love that.

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Well, as we wrap up this conversation, Jen PERSON, I just want to tell listeners, I know we just

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drop this question on you in May as you, many of you are wrapping up the school year. And so, oh, just God bless you,

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leaders, as you're wrapping up, I think I've said this many times before. My wife, Missy calls this Mays cember. She, because she says, December and May are the two hardest months to ever be married to an administrator. And she's right. And so I know right now many of you are managing just the craziness of spring and all of the emotions and the weather and the activities. And so as you wrap it up, every single day you're stepping into situations where your ability to manage conflict in a way that stays centered in the reason that your whole schoolexists means your gift to the people that you're serving. And sometimes you get it wrong when you do apologize. And sometimes you get it right. And when you do take confidence in that. But I hope this has been helpful. Jen PERSON, any other thoughts as we wrap up? No, I do. You said it twice. So I'll say it

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one more time to make it a trifecta, but apologizing is it causes no harm to yourself, and it really is usually well received to say, oh, wow, I was wrong on that. I'm so sorry for the time we wasted or I'm so sorry I guided us wrong. It doesn't cost a thing. Yep, we're both saying that because we learned it the heart way.

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So Principal Matters, listeners, thank you for all that you do in leading and guiding your schools.

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Until next time, thanks for doing what matters.

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And we'll talk to you again soon. Thanks, everyone. Find free resources like this one at William D. Parker.com. Subscribe for our free weekly newsletter, which contains bonus material. And also check out the links for Grow Academies, Masterminds, Executive Coaching ORG, and keynote presentations for my books, as well asfor Principal Matters Associates ORG. You can find out more under our Speakers tab at William D. Parker.com. Thank you for learning together, and thank you for doing what matters.