Charlee Dyroff & 'Loneliness & Company': Debut Discussions

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In our series debut discussions, we're asking debut authors to tell us their story. Not only the story in the novel they wrote, but the journey they took to hold that book in their hand. On today's episode, we welcome Charlie Dyeroff PERSON. Charlie is a writer from Boulder, Colorado, whose work has appeared in Slate, Gulf Coast, Gwarnica ORG, among others. She received an MFA from Columbia University and lives in New York GPE. Her debut novel, Loneliness and Company WORK_OF_ART, is out now.

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Welcome to Fop Fiction Women, Charlie PERSON. Yay. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

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Listen to the show bunch and just like it's really fun to hear the behind the scenes. So it's

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kind of surreal to be on the other side talking to you both. I love that. Love that.

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This is so exciting for us too. And we are going to chat about loneliness and company, of course. But before we do, with our debut discussions, we love to go back in time because writers begin as readers. So what kind of reader were you? Tell us your story. Yes.

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I was, I read a lot as a kid. I feel like I read everything from like Amelia Belia PERSON to like all these chap books going forward to just whatever we could find at the bookstore. And my parents used to joke that I was the kind of reader who would get so lost in a book that the house could burn down.

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And it was happening. And I think they even once like pulled my brother aside and they were like if no and seriously if the house burns down like you've got to get her

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sister yeah just a little sister like reading on the couch but yeah I don't know I loved reading

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and even to this day I still like enjoy diving into a book. And I think your relationship changes to reading a little bit when you become a writer. But I still try and get back into that mode where you just disappear in a world and you're not trying to dissect it all the time.

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Yes. That's a good point. That is a really interesting thing that no one has ever brought up. Your relationship does change because you're reading when you write, you're reading and you see kind of behind the curtain, right, of how these things get made.

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And you wonder, like, oh, was that always there? When did that come in?

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Okay, so bridge the gap for us between reader and writer. Did you also start writing at a young age? And when did you know you were going to take it really seriously? Yeah, that's such a good question.

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I liked to create stuff when I was younger. Like, I would draw pictures and try and sell them to my dad for 10 cents. And, like, I liked to write poems and do random things, but I never really thought about it that much. It was just I was lucky to have a childhood where my parents encouraged me to like create and read and do sports and just try things.

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But I didn't actually know, and this sounds so silly when I say it out loud, but I didn't actually know that you could be a writer, until like my mid-20s. And I had graduated college. I was working. And I actually

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started a food blog. And I had started interviewing people like chefs and pastry chefs and bakers about the stories behind like the desserts they made. It's so funny.

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I love that.

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And I think I had, like, one reader of this blog, most often my mom.

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That's how I started, like, writing.

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And I still, it was just like a side project outside of work.

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But I really liked it.

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And I think, you know, in hindsight, there were, like like many profiles of people. I didn't even know what that was. And that was kind of, I just started wanting

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to spend more and more time doing that. And I would get up early before work and I would work on

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this blog or I would try and write a story. And my friend was like, you should apply to grad school. Like, you're spending so much time in the mornings. Like, you don't want to go out anymore. You want to get up early.

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Right, right.

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Like, work on this blog or these things.

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And so I ended up applying to grad schools in New York GPE.

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And I was lucky I got in. And that's really, like, during grad school, during an MFA ORG program was when I realized like, oh, there are real writers.

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Like there are people who write. And of course, I think you know that being a reader, but you don't think about like the person putting the story on the page.

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I mean, that was part of why we started this podcast in the first place is how many people would be avid readers and not even know the author's name. I'm the reverse. I know the author's

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name. I never remember titles. I'm like, oh, that book or this book or their last book. They are separate, but I think there's only more to gain by knowing the person behind it and what goes behind it. Because if no other reason just to know that this is a job, This is a thing people do. Yeah. Because you are not

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the first person that said that to us. In fact, so many have. I didn't know this was a job I could have.

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Yeah. Right. Right. And it's kind of funny because I have worked in tech and I've worked for like an app before.

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And that was the same thing where I was like, oh, we have all these tiny little squares on our phone. And you don't think about an entire team that works behind that.

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Oh, gosh, yes.

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And it's, I'm sure in every field, but in writing or movies or whatever, you know, art it is, I feel like you can get lost in the story, which is pretty cool.

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But then you don't realize like, oh, someone might have spent, you know, 10 years making this thing that I devoured in a weekend.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So when you were drawn to food blogging, were you interested in the characters?

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Were you interested in their, like, backstory?

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It sounds like those are two very natural things that you were interested in and made you want to come back to the page.

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Is that what it was? Yeah.

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Yeah. Yeah. My mom is a wonderful, like, cook and baker. I mean, she used to make cheesecakes and sell them to, like, restaurants in Boulder GPE where I grew up. So we grew up, like, I wanted to learn to bake with her and cook with her. And I do think food is such an important part of storytelling and family and culture. And so I started to become interested in that, especially living in New York GPE. There are so many different types of food and kinds of people that move here and want to, you know, it's their dream to open up a store and sell something that they had in their childhood. Or they're inspired by by i remember talking to awoman i can't remember the small bakery but she um was making these pastries inspired by caprisons

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oh wow because she just loved caprisons PRODUCT growing up yeah oh my god i think that's like a long answer

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to the question but i i was really interested more in the people and their stories, which I think is maybe what led me to be interested in writing fiction one day.

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Yeah. That's where it started.

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And you've already touched on a few things that I can see.

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You're clearly the seeds, the life seeds for loneliness and company, but did you start writing

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that during your MFA ORG?

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How did this novel come about?

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Yeah, I think this is the hardest question that I keep trying to ask myself, too, because I want to keep writing and I want to figure out, I'm like, oh, if I could figure out how I wrote this,

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then maybe I can write another book. Oh, boy. You're in my head right now.

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It's like, Karen PERSON's going to be into this.

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Yeah, I'm glad you guys understand. It's an interesting thing. But I would say I started writing this in grad school, in the MFA ORG program. But it's a little bit of a complicated story because I was actually in the MFA program for nonfiction. So I wasn't writing this as

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part of the coursework. Okay. Wow. And I loved nonfiction. I still love essays. My professors were

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wonderful and I learned so much. But I also had a hard time with the workshops. I don't know if I

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have thick enough skin. I mean, power to people that can turn work in so quickly and have it, you know, assessed so quickly. But I think I was struggling with some of the, just it was intense, right? And so I started writing fiction, I think, as an escape from nonfiction. And just a space where I could really play and create a story that no one had to

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read and I didn't have to get feedback on and it didn't have to be anything important. And I

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remember, I have a friend who makes fun of me for this, but I didn't call it a novel or a book

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probably until like the second round of the manuscript was done. Like I just kept doing it a project.

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Oh, yes.

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Okay.

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I'm afraid if I gave it.

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A little denial there, but yeah.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Right?

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And then I didn't have to tell anyone about it.

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And I also didn't have to face myself.

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Like it was, it could just be whatever it wanted to be instead of trying to put it in a box.

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And definitely denial there.

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But I think it helped me.

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Yeah. Yeah. I think you needed that. Yeah. Well, this is probably time then for you to tell our listeners what loans and company is about. Yes. No more denial, right? It's here. You did it. I'm holding it.

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It's very crazy.

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But yes, and the elevator pitch is such a funny thing to try and boil down a story you've worked on for so long into, you know, a few sentences.

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And I think that's a skill, too.

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You both know that from hearing so many of them.

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And sorry for the preamble.

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I just am like thinking about it.

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Okay, but loneliness and company is set in a near future New York GPE, and it follows a sort of quirky, ambitious young woman who gets kind of tangled up in this secret

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government project where they are building an AI to help befriend all the lonely people in the

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world.

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Such a good premise.

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Yeah, that was great.

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Yes, it's perfect.

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So we want to start with Lee PERSON, who, as you said, the novel follows her.

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She has her whole life mapped out perfectly. And when her postgraduate assignment comes back at an unknown company in a dead city,

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as you're talking about in this

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near future New York GPE, her goals are really turned upside down and she resists it all along the way.

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But what we learn later on is that she's been tasked with curing a human condition we thought

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was eradicated loneliness. And at one point, Lee PERSON asked herself, what does it like to be lonely?

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And you go on to write her answer, which I'd like to read a little bit of if that's okay. I try to let the feelings sink in. I try to really feel it, but for myself this time. Sometimes hot shame runs through me. Other times I'm afraid of who I've become, of the future, of not being enough. I crave silence, but want someone to break it, to be around people and to be left alone.

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I'm disappointed with where time has taken me. I want others to understand and I'm frustrated when

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they can't. Those pages really moved me and I want you to tell us a little bit more about Lee

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and what made you want to explore loneliness with such depth and unflinching?

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You know, you talk about the denial of getting this novel down, but you are unflinchingly looking at loneliness and technology in so many pieces of our current lives in this novel.

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Tell us about that.

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Thank you so much.

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And it's lovely to hear you read it.

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I haven't heard someone read the words. So it's a cool experience. Yeah, Lee PERSON is an interesting character. I feel like she, I don't know where she came from. Like, I know she came from a lot of me and a lot of my experiences, but she's also not me. And I think that happens to debut novels

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a lot. You pull a lot from like your life and what you experience because it's maybe the easiest

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way into writing a book. But it's interesting because when I was writing her, she also felt so

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different from me. So it's hard to figure out where the voice for her came from, and it took a lot of time to develop her.

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I remember when I was first writing her, I think she was so unable to access her internal emotions that it was actually really hard to read for other people because she just didn't know herself at all, which I think is maybe still part of the story, but it took a while to make

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it readable to other people, because it's not fun to talk to someone who's in denial of themselves

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all the time or to follow that character through a long book. Not that my book's that long,

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but you know what I mean? But yeah, so I remember writing into the voice a lot before I knew any of

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the plot, and I was trying to figure out, trying to figure out what she wanted, why she was coming to the page.

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And the loneliness aspect of it, I think, was in the book all along and I didn't know it.

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And it was something that was something that I think did correspond with my own life, which I was in grad school at the time, and I was teaching at the time,

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and I was living alone. And all of those are very solitary activities. And I really was

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very lonely. And I didn't know it. And I think sometimes you know something's going on. You know,

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you're not feeling yourself, but you don't really know what's pulling you down.

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Especially if you're busy. If you're doing things, it's hard to go,

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what's my problem? I'm in front of students. I am doing this. I'm writing. Yeah, living life. Yeah.

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Yeah. Right. Right. I think that's such a good point because, you know, you're busy and especially sometimes you have people around you. Yeah. Friends or you have a partner or you have something. And so you're like it's it's a very

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strange experience of almost beating yourself up for feeling lonely because you shouldn't.

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Like you have so much going on. Yeah. And so it took me a while to realize like, oh, I, I am

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really lonely. And then that also felt very shameful to admit.

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And I actually think I wouldn't have figured it out for myself. But going back to the MFA ORG,

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I had been turning in all these essays outside of this book. And I had a professor who we had a

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one-on-one, you know, review of an essay turned in, and she was like, she was so

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polite about it. She was like, the narrator of these essays is extremely isolated. Like,

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she kind of pointed out in my nonfiction, a lot of my work was really betraying me and

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and showing that I was lonely. And I hadn't, I hadn't figured that out in the world of fiction yet.

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And so I really started to think about that.

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And I was like, what would it be like if a book could talk about someone that feels really lonely, maybe doesn't know it?

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And maybe doesn't even have a reason to feel that way, like quote-unquote reason.

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Right.

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And what would that be like?

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Oh, wow.

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I love the chills. Yeah, the stories of other people seeing. that way like quote-unquote reason right right and what would that be like oh wow i love good the

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chills yeah the stories of other people seeing what your writer's subconscious is telling you like we've

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heard a lot of stories like that and it makes so much sense to me i mean i've written things where i

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look back and go oh oh like i guess that's what i was going through. This was in my head, yes.

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Yes, so you need many people need that.

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Yeah, to have that pointed out.

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And then I love how it bled into your fiction.

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So in the book, you explore loneliness through the lens of technology.

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And at one point, Janet PERSON says,

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I'd rather have a world of lonely people than a world of numb ones.

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And this novel really does elevate human connection over technology, but it also, you know,

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subtly demonstrates the way the lines blur between what's human and what is technology.

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So tell us why you wanted to use this lens to explore that.

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Yeah, you both are such close readers.

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I love it.

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It's such an honor to have your book read that way.

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So thank you.

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You know,

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I think it came probably from a couple of things.

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One,

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I mentioned that I worked and still work in tech.

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And I think that it's hard not to think about it, right?

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So I've always been thinking about apps and social media and just the way we engage on a Zoom PRODUCT or what is this world we're slowly morphing into.

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And it's not always bad that, you know, like my mom can FaceTime my nephew now and be able to spend more time with him.

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So it's a really strange world where I think we want to draw

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lines of like good or bad or you know, AI is great or AI is terrible and it's actually so more

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nuanced than that. And so I think I wanted to create a world that is in the future and there is

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tech everywhere and some of it's funny, some of it's broken and some of it's weird and some of it's funny, some of it's broken, and some of it's weird, and some of it is really frustrating, and some of it's kind of fun.

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Like, she, Lee PERSON has this ongoing, I don't want to give anything away about ongoing chat with someone. And it's like, well, is that a real friendship when you get to chat with people on Slack PRODUCT at work or online across the country. But to your point, Kate, I think I have two little sisters and I have seen myself and my friends kind of migrate more and more online. And you kind of, you get to keep all these friends. You have people you connect with all over, which is really cool.But sometimes that can feel like it's enough and like it takes the place almost of going to have a coffee with someone. And you don't realize until you go out and you meet friends for a drink or a coffee, like, oh my gosh, I needed that.

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It's very different.

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Yeah.

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And so, yeah, I think I'm kind of biased and I do think that in-person connection will always be so important.

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And something we can't forget as we kind of move into this digital age.

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Absolutely.

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It's something, though, that can trick you. Just like being busy doesn't mean you're not isolated and lonely.

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I was thinking about, you know, online relationships or even just watching TikToks or,

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you know, like people dancing.

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You're like, this is humanity.

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I'm watching someone else's humanity.

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And you think you know them and understand them.

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And to some extent you do.

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But also, it is just different having that human connection, that energy of being in a room and

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just going wherever the conversation goes, wherever it goes, instead of like a packaged,

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you know, clip or real to watch.

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Really, I think we see that a lot with, I was talking to a friend the other day.

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You know, I'm 10 years out of college and I've been keeping up with some people online. I've seen their wedding. I've seen the baby. I've seen whatever. So it feels like they're still a friend. It feels like you still know them. But the last conversation I had with them was probably in college. And it's interesting because we feel like we have to keep up with all of these people.

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It feels like your life is really full from that perspective.

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But then where does the emptiness come when you put your phone away?

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And you're spending time scrolling on TikTok PRODUCT, watching the videos, doing whatever versus like sitting kind of awkwardly at a bar alone.

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Because maybe the bartender and you will have a conversation or someone will walk in

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and you'll meet them and that's harder to do now, I think.

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Yes.

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Yeah, or it's harder to even think about doing, right?

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It's like you don't even consider it because you think, oh, well, I just interacted in some other way.

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By the way, Kate PERSON does not have this problem.

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Kate PERSON sits down at a bar and immediately is engaged in conversation with either the bartender or probably both and people

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on either side of her. I have a little bit of a track record. It is a skill. But as you're talking,

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I'm thinking, yes, I do do that. But I have teenagers who are the next generation is so problematic

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to me. I don't think they would ever know how to do that.

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And like they play video games with their friends online, but they're not,

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they think that's hanging out with their friends.

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I'm like, that's not hanging out with your friends. That's a form of interaction. But, you know, the human connection, like you're saying, I think I've learned. It helps. It is energizing. It does make you feel differently than those types of interactions. But I worry that maybe they don't quite understand that.

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But they think I'm a boomer. So I think that's interesting because it's, I think you said it exactly right. That is a form of interaction and friendships. It's not like you're saying, don't ever do that. That doesn't count for anything.

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But if that replaces everything, everything else, then what kind of world are we living in? And I don't know the answer. I think that's...

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Yeah, I think the ideal is to have both. Yeah.

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Yeah. And I guess they get that at school at this age, but when you're older, it's not so easy to come by.

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There is something in this. I don't have a question about this. So just being prepared to talk whatever you want to talk about. But I can't not say there's something that's brought up twice in this book as Lee is reflecting on something that Toru PERSON tells her. And it's about the chance that something could fail is actually what makes success even greater.And the first time I read it, I was like, oh, that feels so profound to me. And then when it came back around at the end and Lee PERSON is considering it for herself and whether she does subscribe to that or not, I was like, I have to just talk about this because, I mean, I know we talk about risk and rewardand just but the way you said it and maybe it was the way it was couched in this unflunching novel that was so willing to be both protected and vulnerable that I don't, there was just something about it that really struck me. So I want to talk about what you were thinking about as you wrote that, what you think about that idea and how you came to

Speaker 31390.04s - 1415.44s

give that to your novel. Yeah. So I grew up as an athlete and I think there was something maybe there that kind of carries over into this book about just thinking what does it mean to really throw yourself at something and likely fail and I've really failed as an athlete I know I won't say that because they're so

Speaker 11415.44s - 1421.42s

nice but you know we I grew up playing volleyball and we trained all of the time and we never won

Speaker 31421.42s - 1467.02s

anything and it was still this undying belief that maybe, maybe I could be really good, right? Maybe I could play in the Olympics EVENT. And I had so many injuries and it, I honestly probably just wasn't good enough either, but to commit to something and to train for it and to go after it was something that I think really shaped me as a person and has carried over into work and like wanting to do a good job at work and work well with other people. It's carried over into writing. And I think writing is a really interesting thing where you could work onsomething for years and years and years. And what makes it beautiful is that there's absolutely no guarantee it will work.

Speaker 11467.14s - 1467.42s

Yeah.

Speaker 31468.8s - 1483.06s

There's so much doubt in writing. And so I think that maybe those nuggets in there about, you know, taking risks and going after something, even though the likelihood that you'll fail is great. Yeah.

Speaker 11483.1s - 1486.58s

Very high is where that comes from because I think

Speaker 31486.58s - 1492.88s

there's sort of this, maybe it's morbid, but there's sort of an electricity to trying to do

Speaker 11492.88s - 1500.38s

something that you might not be able to do. Yeah. And had you told me, you know, at 20 coming out of,

Speaker 01500.38s - 1520.88s

or 22 coming out of college or had you told lee at the beginning of this book that it sounds horrifying it's like why would I ever do anything for which the chance of failure is so high a and B it's not going to happen to me because I will achieve achieve achieve and so failure is

Speaker 11520.88s - 1527.28s

an option but not really for me and you know that know, that was, I think, a large part of

Speaker 01527.28s - 1533.78s

why I became a lawyer. The sky was the limit, but there was really no bottom. The bottom one lawyer,

Speaker 21533.98s - 1539.88s

I mean, yeah, you're pretty good. You're doing all right for yourself. So it gave me that floor,

Speaker 11539.88s - 1545.16s

but also what I thought was a blue sky ceiling. Now, I don't believe that anymore.

Speaker 01550.14s - 1563.12s

And for me, that was what writing and writing for publication ultimately. Because writing anybody can do and you can work on your craft and it's really important and vital to make art. But publishing is an unkind, crowded, tough space.

Speaker 11563.44s - 1570.44s

And so that for me gave me that feeling, I think, where maybe Lee PERSON gets too by the end.

Speaker 01572.58s - 1573.14s

Yeah.

Speaker 31573.14s - 1575s

I can see that with law.

Speaker 01575.5s - 1577.76s

My roommate was a lawyer, is a lawyer.

Speaker 31578.06s - 1600.96s

We're just not roommates anymore. She works so hard, and it is interesting because it is not easy to go to law school to be in that competitive environment. But I think there are certain people that really excel in it because they want the challenge. And so I can see that being like, I won't fail. This is a difficult thing.

Speaker 01601.04s - 1612.12s

But at least once I graduate and I'm a lawyer, then there's like only up from here. I don't know. It's very interesting. It's a very cushioned challenge. It is like one that

Speaker 21612.12s - 1617.44s

that doesn't let you fall too far. So I don't know. When I read that, I just thought of that in a

Speaker 01617.44s - 1624.42s

whole new way. So thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah, there's a ladder as one who's in the law firm

Speaker 21624.42s - 1646.06s

ladder. And there are nice steps, you know, like Lee. If we do, if we work hard, if we do what we're supposed to do, you get to the next one. You get to the next one. So this does lead nicely to my next question. I really related to Lee. We watch Lee slowly at first trying to connect with or interact with Veronica PERSON, ordering the food she wants

Speaker 01646.06s - 1651.26s

and the relationships she gets into. And you write, it feels a little bit like I'm doing everything

Speaker 21651.26s - 1699.1s

wrong. But maybe that means I'm finally doing something right. Maybe I'm just listening to myself for the first time in a long time. But what does it say about me if in this one moment of clarity all I want to do is something bad? Is it possible my instincts, my gut, my heart are wired wrong? Oh, and that was very relatable. I mean, Lee PERSON has been chasing external validation for so long.She says early on, I was like, oh my God, this is so me. She's never broken a rule in her life. She also says, like, she's done everything she was told. And at that point, it's frustrating to her because it's like, why did I get this placement? I did everything I was supposed to do. I did all the things. And this is what my therapist always tells me. Yeah, you did all the

Speaker 01699.1s - 1719.36s

right things. And yet, look where you are. So, you know, it happens. That doesn't guarantee anything. And in chasing this external validation, it means she doesn't know how to trust herself and her instincts and her choices. And so, you're more about what you were exploring with Lee PERSON and this relationship.

Speaker 31720.74s - 1725.4s

Yeah, I think, gosh, I relate to her too.

Speaker 11730.86s - 1743.06s

I think, I mean, I guess that makes sense because she comes from my head. But I think, yeah, it is just so funny to hear the different things that really hit home for people because you just never know when you're working on something.

Speaker 31743.06s - 1814.22s

because you just never know when you're working on something. And when I was working on Lee PERSON, especially in this beginning part that we meet her and where she has done everything, right? She, you know, seeks that external validation. I think that's just, it's something that's maybe a part of me going back to sports where you want to be told you're doing a good joband that you're working hard and that you're doing all the right things. But I think I definitely turned it up for her to see what would it be like if someone really was so unable to access themselves because they needed to do a good job in terms of how the world thinks you should do a good job. So I wanted to explore that. And I also, I wanted to explore, like, when you have a mentor, I think, who is telling you that this is the right way to do things, the power of that. Because mentors are soimportant, especially to young people. And I think when you are younger, the first person who believes in you outside of your parents is very powerful.

Speaker 11814.24s - 1815.14s

It's powerful. Yeah.

Speaker 31815.58s - 1820.86s

And so I just, I think I wanted to think about, I mean, I think I wanted to think.

Speaker 01821.44s - 1842.24s

I wanted to think. Grapple with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to grapple with that.And yeah, just we all want external validation. And so what happens when that's the only thing we put value on? And what happens when you do finally start to listen to yourself? Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 11842.58s - 1842.6s

Yeah.

Speaker 31842.62s - 1865.22s

This novel is a class and end both, right? It should be online and in person and external validation and internal compass. And you have to have both for all of those things to have a really, I think, complete and fulfilling life. So I want to talk a little bit more about process now.

Speaker 11865.34s - 1868.84s

You have this secret project that you've written.

Speaker 01869.6s - 1874.78s

When do you think, you know, maybe I should maybe think about getting an agent

Speaker 11874.78s - 1876.86s

and some eyes on this thing.

Speaker 01877.16s - 1878.5s

At what point in that process?

Speaker 11879.4s - 1879.58s

Okay.

Speaker 01879.58s - 1887.42s

So when I finished the manuscript, I think that I read it through again.

Speaker 31887.6s - 1903.06s

I started editing it. And that's when I was able to start to admit to myself, this is a book. It's not just a project. It's a book. And as soon as that switch flipped in my head, that's, I think, where I became competitive. You're like, okay.

Speaker 11904.86s - 1907s

How does this world work?

Speaker 31907s - 1911s

Because this isn't a very clear world to operate.

Speaker 01911s - 1912.52s

Publishing is crazy.

Speaker 11913.48s - 1916.32s

And so I just try to learn as much as I could.

Speaker 31916.4s - 1945.62s

I talked to as many people. I read as much as I could. I listened to podcasts. Like this one, I just tried to learn what is the publishing world. How do you even get it out there? I think the MFA ORG program did a really great job of letting you explore. And I think some people have an issue with it. They almost build a bubble to create, but they don't necessarily tellyou what to do with that. Yeah. And they're, you know,

Speaker 11945.98s - 1951.44s

we're very lucky if you are able to go to a program like that because there are panels and things.

Speaker 31951.58s - 1975.34s

I just, I don't think I was aware of it because I didn't think I had a project that could do that. So I don't want to downplay anything that they do. But yeah, so I started reading a ton, trying to learn and realized you have to get an agent. And so when it was ready, I think I had friends read it and give me feedback. And then it was just time to rip the

Speaker 11975.34s - 1983.76s

band-aid and see, is this a real thing? And I queried, I think I queried 10 or 15 people, which isn't

Speaker 31983.76s - 1990.52s

that many. And I got really nice rejections.

Speaker 01997.58s - 1997.88s

And it was kind of a weird time because I felt lucky to have people read the full.

Speaker 32000.88s - 2007.92s

I don't know if everyone listening to the podcast knows how it works, but if you query an agent and write them a letter about why they should read your book, they might not answer you at all.

Speaker 02009.92s - 2016.04s

So I wouldn't get discouraged there, but so they might not answer you or they might request

Speaker 12016.04s - 2021.42s

some of it, or they might reject you right off the bat, or they might request the full manuscript

Speaker 02021.42s - 2025.94s

to read. So I felt very lucky because I got quite a few requests for

Speaker 32025.94s - 2033.08s

the full manuscript and then I got quite a few rejections right away. But they had an inkling,

Speaker 12033.38s - 2039.64s

like one or two sentences of feedback and I will forever be thankful for the agents that rejected

Speaker 02039.64s - 2048.36s

me that spent time to write one sentence. Because it doesn't happen a lot. And they were all saying that

Speaker 12048.36s - 2057.1s

they couldn't, Lee PERSON was very inaccessible. And they couldn't relate to her. And so I stopped

Speaker 02057.1s - 2063.48s

querying because I was like, oh, this is the definition of insanity. I'm just going to get the same.

Speaker 12063.48s - 2065s

Right. If I had gotten different

Speaker 02065s - 2070.84s

direction and rejection, maybe I would have been, but it was all the same. Yeah. So I'm sorry,

Speaker 32070.92s - 2077.12s

this is a long story. No. So I put the manuscript away because I didn't know how when someone says

Speaker 12077.12s - 2082.7s

they can't relate to the narrator, I was kind of confused because that was the whole story. So I

Speaker 32082.7s - 2086.72s

went away and I started working on other things.

Speaker 12086.72s - 2099s

And then a friend gave me a book probably a year later, The Answers by Catherine Lacey PERSON, which is very funny title because it did kind of provide me like the answer.

Speaker 32099.8s - 2131.62s

And I read it and it was one of those things where it was not my book at all, but it helped me think about how, going back to how to read as a writer, I was starting to think about how did she do this book. And it has a lot of elements of kind of research. And this famous guy has all of these girlfriends. He's doing like a girlfriend experiment. And so it's really not the same as my book, but something unlocked a way for me to go back to the manuscript.

Speaker 02132.16s - 2135.84s

And I went back and that's where Janet PERSON comes in.

Speaker 32136.32s - 2140.32s

And Janet PERSON was not part of the original manuscript at all.

Speaker 12141s - 2142.52s

And I really loved writing her.

Speaker 32142.52s - 2146.32s

And she helped me kind of see a different view of Lee PERSON.

Speaker 12146.32s - 2155.36s

Yeah. And so long story short, I revisited the manuscript. I rewrote a lot of it and I queried again

Speaker 32155.36s - 2164.24s

and I ended up finding my agent Danielle Bukowski at Sterling Ward Literistic ORG and she is wonderful.

Speaker 12164.24s - 2165.92s

Yeah. But it was a process.

Speaker 32166.28s - 2168.58s

You know, it's a long journey.

Speaker 12168.92s - 2171.38s

You know, that was a very similar process to mine.

Speaker 32171.52s - 2176.84s

And I won't, but it is, like I got immediate requests for fools.

Speaker 12177.22s - 2178.54s

I got enthusiastic.

Speaker 32179.08s - 2180.2s

I definitely want to read this.

Speaker 02180.2s - 2184.78s

And then I got, you know, again, all rejections, but with one or two lines of like,

Speaker 32185.76s - 2191.98s

I don't know. It just, it seemed to me, even though a rejection is hard to think of as a green light,

Speaker 02191.98s - 2196.38s

but it just felt like you got to keep going. But I didn't know how. And so I put mine away for

Speaker 32196.38s - 2204.08s

some period of time, too, until I found a way back into it. And then, you know, then it can go

Speaker 02204.08s - 2205.22s

from there.

Speaker 32206.12s - 2206.44s

But it's funny.

Speaker 12206.56s - 2206.62s

Yeah.

Speaker 32211.62s - 2212.38s

But I love that it's another book that really isn't similar to yours, that is the thing that unlocks it.

Speaker 02212.56s - 2213.64s

And that's amazing.

Speaker 22214.36s - 2219.82s

So you got your agent and then tell us about going out on submission.

Speaker 02221.28s - 2221.94s

Yes.

Speaker 22221.94s - 2232.46s

So Danielle and I, I think we signed in May or April of, I can't even remember when you're.

Speaker 32232.9s - 2243.6s

I know. What is time? Yeah. I think maybe in 2022 we signed in a springtime. And then we did maybe one or two rounds of revision.

Speaker 02244.44s - 2248.4s

Nothing too crazy, pretty light, but just tightening it up.

Speaker 12249.26s - 2254.7s

Danielle PERSON was the one who pushed me to add the ending.

Speaker 02255.64s - 2260.46s

So that was kind of nice to have someone be like, okay, let's take this one step further.

Speaker 32261.56s - 2267.7s

And then we went out on submission in the fall and it wasn't up and down. I mean,

Speaker 12267.7s - 2272.76s

it was pretty quick, but it was there for a week and some people are reading it and some people

Speaker 32272.76s - 2301.1s

are rejecting it right away. We ended up on a call with Bloomsbury with Grace PERSON and her team. And they were just so enthusiastic and they loved the story. And everyone from the marketing side and the editorial side, they just felt the story in different ways that were passionate to them. And it was really cool. It was a very fun call to be on. So we sold it to them in the fall.

Speaker 12301.64s - 2304.96s

It was nice to not have to do two rounds of submission.

Speaker 32306.04s - 2306.24s

Yeah. Yeah. And, you have to do two rounds of submission. Yeah.

Speaker 22306.96s - 2312.82s

And, you know, because I am friends with Grace PERSON, I asked her if she would write a little

Speaker 02312.82s - 2314.56s

something for me to read on this.

Speaker 32314.72s - 2318.1s

So this is very special. Don't anyone else expect this.

Speaker 12318.22s - 2328.36s

But there was just such bizarre connection that I had to just, because I didn't know when I booked you, I didn't know about the connection. I didn't have the book yet. I hadn't gone to the acknowledgement.

Speaker 02328.66s - 2402.16s

So then when I did, I reached out to Grace PERSON immediately. And so Grace PERSON submitted a little something for me to read. It's just, and you can see her love from it. So for my first read of Charlie Dyerf's PERSON novel, I fell in love with her ability to match emotional precision with emotional complexity. That is such a perfect sentence because that is what it is. And I get that people, whatever the early drafts were, that Lee PERSON was inaccessible, you kept some of that,that precision, that exterior, but also so emotionally complex. And I loved that. So Grace PERSON goes on. She captures the textures of loneliness and isolation. The way pushing yourself socially can be both a good high and a bad trip. And how your best friend can also be the most annoying person in the world all in the same moment. And that complexity carried through to so much of the rest of the novel. Part of what I find so hopeful about the story is that it allows for the messiness of realityand loneliness and technology and the world we have and the world that's yet to come. Which again, the idea of, yes, of both end. And Grace PERSON, of course, captured that beautifully, I think, in her notes.

Speaker 12402.8s - 2404.38s

I love the shout out.

Speaker 32404.38s - 2405.2s

What a surprise.

Speaker 12405.4s - 2414.62s

I have chills. It's so fun to work with someone who really sees your vision. And Grace PERSON is just an amazing editor.

Speaker 32415.24s - 2429.9s

I think that's such a nice note that she sent because she really did. I mean, the letter that I still remember it, the letter she sent Danielle PERSON that I got to read was that, you know, she started reading it at the office and then she couldn't stop.

Speaker 02430.02s - 2436.26s

Like, she read it in one sitting and just saw that there was something there we could really do

Speaker 12436.26s - 2438.12s

and really brought it to life.

Speaker 02438.56s - 2439.4s

So I love that.

Speaker 12439.96s - 2440.72s

It's fantastic.

Speaker 32441.14s - 2441.38s

Yeah.

Speaker 12441.82s - 2442.08s

Yeah.

Speaker 32442.58s - 2450.06s

I'm very curious about compatibility amongst writer and editor, but that's a little just for my own.

Speaker 12450.06s - 2453.46s

You're taking it one step further here because you know grace is signed.

Speaker 02453.64s - 2454.28s

Exactly.

Speaker 32455.08s - 2455.56s

Okay.

Speaker 02456.06s - 2462.66s

But Charlie PERSON, yeah, we've come to the point when we ask about astrology, do you know your sign and do you relate to it?

Speaker 22463.52s - 2466.82s

I do know my sign and I knew this question was coming.

Speaker 02466.82s - 2473.4s

So I did I talk to my friend who knows the most about this astrology.

Speaker 22474.14s - 2475.66s

Well, so I'm a Libra.

Speaker 02475.9s - 2476.26s

Okay.

Speaker 32476.94s - 2481.9s

I do relate to being a Libra, but I will say that I don't know much astrology.

Speaker 12482.2s - 2487.36s

And I think I put almost a barrier there sometimes because I know I believe't know much astrology. And I think I put a almost a barrier there sometimes

Speaker 32487.36s - 2495.04s

because I know I'll believe in it too much. When it comes to me in complex or in conversation or

Speaker 12495.04s - 2501.2s

whatever, I do feel like I very much relate. So my friend, when I was telling her, I said, I'm going to

Speaker 32501.2s - 2508.96s

be on this podcast. I know they're going to ask me about being a Libra. And she was so funny. She was so excited. You guys are going to ask this question.

Speaker 12510.96s - 2516.72s

But so I've always felt that you do want balance. And I feel that in my personal life.

Speaker 32516.72s - 2523.04s

If there's something off in my personal life, if I feel like someone's mad at me, I have a really

Speaker 02523.04s - 2526.44s

hard time doing anything else. Like, I want everything to be okay.

Speaker 32526.76s - 2527.04s

Yes.

Speaker 12527.88s - 2533.78s

And she was funny because she said that Libra PRODUCT's being an air sign.

Speaker 32534.18s - 2536.92s

Got to clear the air. What did she? Can I read it?

Speaker 12537.08s - 2538s

Yes, of course.

Speaker 22539.26s - 2540.62s

We would love that.

Speaker 12541.34s - 2549.82s

She says, Libra's are air signs, which can translate to being restless. I think

Speaker 32549.82s - 2555.62s

you have trouble sitting still. And maybe you could think of that as your creative impulse. You're

Speaker 12555.62s - 2564.12s

always imagining, creating, and moving. I love that. Yes. Yeah, air signs always very intellectual.

Speaker 22564.12s - 2577.14s

So that makes sense for you and everything you've talked about and also for this novel. But also given the scales, the two sides of things, I've already mentioned a number of times. The both end, right?

Speaker 12577.26s - 2586.36s

That's what I was going to say. Yeah, you can't leave it at one thing. It has to be kind of a balanced picture of whatever it is that you're looking at.

Speaker 32587.66s - 2592.54s

So imagine how that would be a nightmare for my boyfriend.

Speaker 02593.14s - 2593.34s

Yeah.

Speaker 12593.76s - 2594.84s

Well, you know.

Speaker 02594.84s - 2597.82s

I can circle conversations over and over, but what about this?

Speaker 12597.88s - 2598.6s

What about this?

Speaker 02598.86s - 2601.52s

Like, what if you get this option or this option.

Speaker 12601.62s - 2604.72s

Yeah, they get a wrap a little bit is because of that.

Speaker 22604.8s - 2607.4s

It's my rising sign, so I do relate to it a bit.

Speaker 12607.46s - 2609.04s

That's sort of how you present in the world.

Speaker 02609.04s - 2612.88s

But I always thought it was like, that's why I'm a lawyer or litigator, right?

Speaker 32612.92s - 2616.48s

Because to be good at my job, I have to see both sides of things.

Speaker 22616.58s - 2620.5s

So I thought it was sort of an occupational hazard, but I now think it's actually

Speaker 32620.5s - 2624.78s

probably in me and that was well suited for my job.

Speaker 22624.88s - 2626.52s

But, I mean, it's exhausting. I've said

Speaker 02626.52s - 2630.38s

this to many Libres on there. I find it exhausting because we could do this all day. I mean,

Speaker 22630.46s - 2647.6s

and I don't think I'm indecisive, but I have to have thought about both. I got to think about it and weigh the things and weigh the things, which I guess some people could be exhausting. And I don't act thinking first. I don't, you know, I'm not going to do that.

Speaker 02647.82s - 2649.62s

But that's the other thing I thought about,

Speaker 22649.68s - 2659.68s

we got the aneagram a lot on here just because other authors mentioned it. And Lee felt so anagram three to me, which I don't know if you know anything about that, but that's what I am.

Speaker 02660.1s - 2662.64s

But it could be what you are because you said a lot of that as heard.

Speaker 22662.74s - 2669.16s

This whole external validation and not necessarily trusting your feelings, right?

Speaker 02669.36s - 2672.96s

Competition. Wanting to win and succeed.

Speaker 22673.42s - 2686.32s

And you do feel things, but you put them aside because you want to be productive. And you want to keep achieving and getting that external validation. And so that made me think of that with her more so too

Speaker 02686.32s - 2687.96s

because I've related to that part.

Speaker 32688.22s - 2688.42s

Yeah.

Speaker 12689.12s - 2694.78s

So you could do a series of the anagrams of characters.

Speaker 32695.16s - 2695.44s

Yeah.

Speaker 12695.68s - 2703.08s

Well, some authors do, the ones that are into it do say they sometimes do think about that

Speaker 32703.08s - 2704.14s

for each of their characters.

Speaker 22704.14s - 2709.4s

Just like some who are into astrology say they like to know the signs of their characters.

Speaker 32709.4s - 2713.74s

It just helps them with, you know, certain attributes or things.

Speaker 22714.3s - 2719.42s

So what I get stuck on with that, though, is that's how she starts.

Speaker 02719.72s - 2721.64s

But then she goes, right?

Speaker 22721.76s - 2723.7s

And your Enneagram PRODUCT is not supposed to change.

Speaker 12723.78s - 2724.5s

Is that right, Kate PERSON?

Speaker 22724.96s - 2730.42s

Yeah, it doesn't change. But there is sort of a spectrum, you know, and like your wings.

Speaker 02730.72s - 2733.36s

So you're not totally set, but I get what you're saying.

Speaker 22733.66s - 2733.8s

Yeah.

Speaker 02733.88s - 2733.9s

Yeah.

Speaker 22733.9s - 2734.7s

Yeah.

Speaker 02735.8s - 2736.8s

But we like all the things.

Speaker 22736.8s - 2738s

It doesn't mesh as well with character arc.

Speaker 02738.12s - 2739.82s

It lines up with character establishment.

Speaker 22740.38s - 2746.06s

But as far as character arc, I always get to like caught up. And wait, is she this way anymore?

Speaker 12746.3s - 2747.42s

And has she changed?

Speaker 32747.7s - 2749.74s

I get caught up with that in life.

Speaker 02750.2s - 2771.1s

So what parts of ourselves are fundamentally ourselves and what parts are changeable. But anyway, we want to leave with what you're loving right now. Anything you want to share as far as books you're reading, shows you're watching, anything that you'd like to share. We'd love to hear. Yeah. Okay. So,

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well, it's very nice in New York GPE right now, which I'm sure you both are. Gorgeous.

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I'm loving spring weather and spring energy. And I just started reading Disappearing Earth

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by Julia Phillips PERSON.

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And it's really good.

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My friend recommended it to me. It's kind of these stories in time. I don't want to give too much away. But it's, I would recommend that. And then the other, I guess, very random thing. But I am a huge fan of Trader Joe's ORG.

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So I've been really eating there. Like they have, have you guys. I am a huge fan of Trader Joe's ORG. Nice.

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Who isn't?

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Who isn't?

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Like, they have, have you guys had the chocolate almonds with like salt on them? I love eating those when I write.

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Oh, a little writerly snack.

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Maybe I've got to add that to our. We do. That's right. Yeah.

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Yeah, because I bet you some people don't eat at all. They get very

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into the scene or the world, but I like to have a little treat. Yeah, I like that. That makes sense.

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I am that way. I don't have anything around me, like no snacks, no nothing. I was just going to ask

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that. That makes me, but I do listen to music. Are you not, are you a music

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person or no music? Yes. I will listen to one song over and over if it's really working for me.

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Yes. That's correct. You're the same. Yes. It depends. Like if I'm in the exploratory,

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like I'm figuring this all out. I'll have like a whole playlist. But once I get in a flow, it is the same song over and over. Yeah. I think there has to be something with flow

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state where, you know, a certain beat or a certain feeling that you're getting from the song

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is helping you kind of get in the place you need to write that scene or the character or whatever.

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Yes. I love that. People really run the gamut on that. Yes, for

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Lonely ORG isn't a company that you had on repeat. No, because it wasn't a book. Remember,

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it was just a project. That's right. It was a project. I was listening to music while writing

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this project. I listened to a lot of Jungle ORG. Do you know the band Jungle?

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They, I'll send you some stuff, but they also have just phenomenal

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music videos,

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which I didn't watch while writing, but just

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they're so creative. But their music often

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has a beat that I find

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useful when writing. I love that.

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I love that. I love that.

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Love it.

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Well, Charlie PERSON, thank you so much for coming and chatting with us.

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Loneliness and company is out now.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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It was so nice to chat with you.

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And thank you for listening.

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Yeah, of course.