National Parks Traveler Podcast | NPS Budgetary Blues

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Welcome to National Parks Traveler ORG, where we explore the national parks and the issues that involve them.

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With the summer vacation season not too far off, no doubt many National Park Service ORG superintendents are trying to figure out how to manage the crowds and avoid impact to natural resources in the park system. This is Kurt Reppencheck, your host at the National Parks Traveler ORG. With Memorial Day weekend, just two weeks away, in Congress ORG and its usual battles over how to fund the federal government, we want to take a look at how the funding situation looks for the park service. To help understand the financial setting across the national park system, we've askedPhil Francis from the Coalition to Protect America's National Parks ORG to provide some insights. We'll be back in a minute with Phil PERSON. Smokey's Life ORG, full of stunning photography and thought-provoking reads,

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Smokey's Life ORG Journal is a biannual magazine produced by Smokey's Life, formerly the Great

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Smoky Mountains Association.

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Members receive it free of charge each spring and fall, and it is available for purchase in retail stores throughout Great Smoky Mountains National Park and online at smokieslife.org ORG. The Blue Ridge Parkway Foundation is the primary non-profit fundraising partner for the Blue Ridge Parkway FAC. It is made up of people who have a deep love for this majestic road and want to ensure that its natural beauty and the experiences it offers indoor for generations to come. Show your appreciation at VRPFoundation.org. Listener and reader support make the National Parks Traveler possibleevery day of the year. If you enjoy the Traveler's content, please consider a donation at National Parks Traveler.org.

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Welcome back to the Traveler, Phil PERSON. It's great to see you again.

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Well, thank you, Kurt. Great to see you. Great to be back. It's an interesting time. It is. It seems that whenever we get together, we're talking doom and gloom for the Park Service ORG budget.

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And when last we visited this topic, I think it was late fall. And there was the threat of another government shutdown because the House couldn't come to terms with the Senate ORG on a budget number for the federal government. They managed to pass through a continuing resolution. But I believe that continuing resolution and budget agreement was pretty hard on the National Park Service, wasn't it? Yeah.

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I have in front of me a report that was dated November of 2003, which is interesting. It was written by the Congressional Research Service ORG. And I've been trying to get actual numbers from the National Park Service, and it's hard to do. Yeah.

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But, and looking at this list, it says that in 19, fiscal year 23, that the budget for their park service was about $3.5 billion, $3.475 billion, and that they requested $3.76 billion.

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And the House passed the budget of $3 billion. passed a budget of $3 billion. And then the Senate passed a budget of $3.457 billion. And at the end of the day, I mean, they're looking at another reduction in the Park Service ORG budget, which is,and I don't think everyone really realizes, and I've come to realize that people really don't understand and it's understandable why. What that means to an agency. You know, what happens when you cut someone's budget? You know, I was in the park service for 40 years and was a manager for most of those years in one way or another. And I remember times where we looked at our budget about halfway through the year and we found that we didn't haveenough money to finish the year because of budget reductions or flat budgets or because of increases that weren't funded by the Congress ORG. The pay increases for employees, you know, there's been some nice pay increases for employees, which was overdue, you know, but the money didn't accompany the increase. And, uh, and so a large percentage of the Park Service ORG budget goes to employees salaries and support costs and fixed costs. So, and so in the superintendents have to not fill jobs or keep vacancies open for longer and not have as many people to serve the public or protect park resources.Has an amazing impact on morale downward. And it makes it more difficult now to recruit and retain employees. And it's, it's difficult. You know, the park service has done some good things though, you know, with one time funding like the Great America's Outdoor Act LAW, the Legacy Restoration Fund Act LAW.And, you know, there's been a variety of funding, but not funding that is ongoing that goes from fiscal year to fiscal year to give the managers the ability to hire and retain employees and to do things that at one point in time that the nice park service was able to do.

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Yeah, yeah, you know, and you're talking billions of dollars, $3.4 billion. And, of course, the Park Service ORG budget is broken out into various aspects. I mean, there's the operations budget, which pays for the day-to-day operations in the park system, as well as there's a maintenance and construction budget lines and various other budget lines.I believe back in March, NPCA National Parks Conservation Association said that the budget agreement was going to cost the park service $150 million to the current budget. the park serves $150 million to the current budget. And as you mentioned that the budget bill does not provide any additional funds to help the parks cover that 5.2% pay raise that Congress ordered last year. When you start looking at, you know, more granular, again, the $150 million cut represents overall 4.3% budget cut from FYI 23 funding and $1.2% or $35 million cut in the Park Services Operations ORG budget. Now, some people might think, well, those are single percentage. It's not that big of a deal. It's not that much money.But, you know, you look around the park system and there's a lot of maintenance that needs to be done. There are a lot of positions that have been left unfilled because park managers don't know how to fill them because they don't have the money to fill them. It just goes on and on and on the impacts. And, you know, somehow the park going public needs to appreciate these budget cuts when they go to their favorite park. Perhaps it's the Blue Ridge Parkway, which last year shut one of its campgrounds earlier than usual because they didn't have the staff.

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Yeah, and some places aren't open anymore at all. But those are some of the impacts. You know, let's take the Lurridge Parkway FAC, for example. There's over 600 buildings to maintain. There's 14 visitor centers to maintain, you know, a measly 500 miles of road or so, you know, overlooks and restrooms and 200 milesof trail, you know, working with and restrooms and 200 miles of trail, you know, working with 4,300 neighbors. There's a lot of responsibility. There's a lot to do. There's a lot of accidents and incidents and a lot of infrastructure to maintainand roads to repave and trails to maintain.

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And so if you've got an employee,

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I was telling someone yesterday who,

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who spoke to who's a Stanford in Congress ORG.

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And I, I just mentioned that, you know, the park services lost thousands of positions, literally thousands. I can't get an exact number. It's at least 2,500. And I read one publication who indicated it's more like 5,500 vacancies. And so the thing that happens when you've got the drop in numbers of people and then trying to add people back is that there are costs associated with everybody that works there. You know, somebody needs suppliesand materials to accomplish their job. It could be toilet paper for restrooms. It could be water lines for campgrounds or visitor centers or other public use areas. You know, it might be new shingles for a roof or new air conditioning systems. The things that we all experience, you know, in day-to-day life is we manage your own homes. You know, I've had to replace my HVAC system a couple of times since I moved in here. That's not cheap.And so, and then our cars wear out. We have to replace them in trucks. And there's all this, all these other costs that are often never talked about. That has to be done in order to keep a park in decent shape. I'm not talking about, you know, creating expensive, luxurious places.I'm talking about basic maintenance, you know, fixing holes and roads and sidewalks and trails. And, you know, we have a high windstorm. And I remember once in the Smokies, we had 11,000 trees come down in one storm. 11,000. And so somebody had to clear that, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so that costs money.

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It creates unsafe conditions if we can't take care of those problems.

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creates unsafe conditions if we can't take care of those problems. I tell a story that, a true story that happened years ago in the parkway. We had a, we had a homicide. And the rangers were called, of course, to respond to this homicide up in the northern part of the parkway. And they hop in their patrol car and it wouldn't run.It was so old and needed maintenance. They had to hop into the back of a pickup truck and ride to the sign of a homicide of a young student. And you know, that's just really unfortunate. I know when the smokies, they handle over 3,000 incidents a year. They have as many as a dozen fatalities in a year. It's still a real safe place to go because, you know, 12 fatalities out of 15 million visitors,your chances of being okay is pretty high. But it still takes time unless, you know, if you're a member of the family who's lost someone, that one fatality means everything.

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Sure.

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And so, and so I think there's a lot of things that people never get to know. They don't know, and there's no way for them to know. People love the parks. They would love for the parks to be well-funded. I'm convinced. But the politics in Washington GPE and the mechanisms for allocating funds makes it very difficult,I think, for us advocates out there, trying to raise more money for the National Park Service to be successful.

Speaker 1765.98s - 817.18s

Yeah, and, you know, a lot of the things that you're talking about are just normal wear and tear and don't include the disasters that strike, such as, you know, the flooding that hit Yellowstone a couple of years ago and that hit Death Valley and that hit Mojave National Preserve FAC and the wild fires. And I believe at the end of the year, Congress came up with over $100 million just to address, you know, a handful of parks that were struggling with disasters. And now with, you know, climate change impacts seeming to be around every corner, I noticed the other day a number of national parks, including Mammoth Cave National Park FAC, closed down because of the weather forecast I was calling for tornadoes. I mean, how many tornadoes does Mammoth Cave National Park FAC ever see? And then you've got sea level rise in Fort Pulaski and Georgia and the problems that it has with keeping the waters back.And you can go on and on and on. The expense of operating these fabulous places just keeps going up and up and up, not to mention the increasing numbers of visitors that go out there.

Speaker 2818.04s - 856.7s

Well, and also increasing numbers of parks. You know, there are many special places that we need to preserve. There are stories that have left untold that I think is important to the country and times change and we need to protect many of these sites and there's great interest in them and every year people advocate for a new park unit to be included in the national park system.And when a new unit is added, there's costs associated with that. And I'm glad that we're trying to protect these special places because unless they're protected, the storage will be lost.

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You mentioned there were some places in parks that are closed to the public because of lack of staffing. You know, I'm just wondering back, I think it was in the late 80s, early 90s, the superintendent at Yosemite National Park FAC threatened to close the gates, and he actually might have closed the gates just because he didn't have the resources to manage the crowds. Have you heard from any of your peers still in the service?Is anybody talking about closing this area of the park or closing that area of the park?

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I mean, yes, I have, but not widespread.

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It's harder to talk with people because of COVID EVENT.

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People aren't answering the phones. They aren't responding to requests. I think there's some political aspect of this. I remember sending in a Freedom of Information Act request of the National Park Service seeking information so I could understand the problems and challenges in the National Park Service. I didn't get a response for three years. I called my first, the first park where I worked way back in the 70s and multiple times I left a message. I never, I never heard from them. I've called regional offices and no one answers the phone or no one calls back. I was in Washington just the other day and and I went toheadquarters of the National Park Service and it's like a ghost town there. There's hardly anyone present. Very few people that I know. I don't think there are very many people left in a National Park Service in headquarters who have any park experience. So, you know, the impacts of COVID EVENT and reduced fines and political changes, is having a big effect, adverse effect, I think, on our agency. I heard just yesterday, someone suggests that the National Park Service should be at its own agency. I mean, it would not be part of the Department of the Interior ORG anymore.

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Yeah. Because of politics associated with being part of the Department of the Interior ORG.

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Is that a good idea? I don't know. Maybe it is. Maybe it's not. It's been debated for many years. But yeah, I remember being in Yosemite in 1989 through 1991. And I remember important people from the Washington GPE office would come down and appropriations committee staffers would show up. And we would tell stories about the number of rangers that were once in Yosemite Valley, which I think the number was 28.And at the time of this visit, we only had five left. So I don't know what the answers are. We keep plugging away, providing information. And I know we sound critical. And I think we all just love the perks and we're disappointed, you know, when things get worse, when we don't have the resources and manpower and equipmentto get the job done like we once were able to. Yeah.

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You know, Phil PERSON, it's kind of like, I don't know, maybe this is a poor, to get the job done like we once were able to. Yeah. You know, Phil PERSON, it's kind of like, I don't know, maybe this is a poor analogy, I think it fits, is like, you know, how do you boil a frog? You put a frog in a pot of cold water and you slowly increase the temperature. And what we're seeing here with the park service is we're slowly reducing the amount of money it has to operate while increasing responsibilities and the needs for that money. One of the impacts of climate change are the shoulder seasons in the parks are gettinglonger. And you well know how valuable seasonal employees are to the park system and the parameters that are put on those seasonal workers. How is that impacting the parks?

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Well, I think it's having a big impact. I know that lack of housing, affordable housing, is having an impact. Thankfully, some members of Congress ORG are trying to assist, and there have been some donations made by private sector organizations that has allowed for replacement or improvement of existing housing. But if you go to Yosemite LOC, you mentioned Yosemite, I used to be in charge of housing was one of my responsibilities. And we had for national parkservice employees nearly 400 houses and and the concession operator had probably 2,000 places that housed the concession employees and so the money that's been granted you know to help protect these houses that we have or maybe build new ones and replace them, you know, it's great. It's very much appreciated, but it's not enough. I mean, more needs to be done. done. So when when I know if you if an employee is looking for a job and there's some really key important and fun jobs, places that people want to go, Yosemite is one, but maybe the best example that I can think of is in grant teatis.

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And if you go to Jackson, Wyoming GPE, it's a place where I've heard someone say, it's a place where billionaires are buying out all the millionaires.

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Right. And so the housing there is very expensive. And the salaries are employees are earning. It just doesn't allow for them to live there in Jackson GPE very well. I mean, there are probably some examples. So we've been, we've been looking at some new hiring authorities that might allow employees to take the jobs that the park services has,that are vacant, and we can't get on to fill it under the current situation and one of one of the authorities hiring authorities we've been seeking is local hires and so hiring people from the communities themselves who maybe don't need housing and that's going to require the office of personnel management to approve it no and b to improve it and there's a lot of steps that have to be gone through in order for that kind of response to this problem to occur. I don't know about you, but I know where I live. The price of a house is more thandoubled in the last five or ten years. And so where do we, where do employees going to go? And then when we have a house to fill, we've been putting one or two or three people in a room. You know, there aren't enough bathrooms. When during COVID EVENT, people were passing COVID around one to another and new policies were created and saying that you can't have more than one person per room.And so housing is a huge issue and a very expensive problem. But one is really important to the morale and the ability to attract and retain employees that are needed to maintain the parks and serve the visitors.

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And, you know, you mentioned that we're seeing some relief come in, but it seems that, you know, it's the haves and the have nuts.

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I mean, Yellowstone LOC has made great progress.

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I know Friends of Acadia has helped Acadia National Park FAC find some housing for employees. Mammoth Cave FAC just recently embarked on new employees in housing. But, you know, there's 429 units in the National Park FAC system. And interest rates are high to buy a house if you want to do that. And GS5 ORG salaries are low. Yeah, I don't know how it works. I don't know how you make it work.

Speaker 21370.3s - 1438.48s

Yeah, it's going to be a hard, it's a hard issue to address effectively. I've continued to go to my university on recruiting trips for the National Park Service. And the last couple of times I've been, you know, we have a room full of people who come, probably 30 people will show up.And we have several sessions of 30 people, kids, young people. We talk about jobs, state park. People were there and city parks and people are there and so forth. And so, and of course, I'm there promoting the National Park Service. And the last couple of times when I've asked people, which of you, who are, who is really interested in becoming a NationalPark Ranger? And I got the same answer to both times. And the answer was here. who are who is really interested in becoming a national park ranger. And I got the same master of both times. And the answer was zero. Not any. And so I wanted to explore that some more. I said, well, what is it that you want to do?

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And more people want to work for city parks than national parks. And, uh, and, but most of the people who are in these colleges within the

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university, you know, they want to, they be involved in recreation of some kind. Sports, coaches, they want to be a coach. And not really interested in, and working in a national park. I bring up, you know, if you talk, because you're an athlete, is that why you want to be involved in? I say yes. And I said, well, you know, saving somebody's life on the side of El Capitanrequires some athleticism. And, you know, backcountry skiing in order to save someone's life or find someone on it requires quite a bit of stamina and athleticism as well. And it says don't discount the National Park Service if you want a job that requires, you know, being an athlete, being physically fit because there's plenty of those jobs available. Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm.

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But without success. You got to try harder, Phil PERSON. There's plenty of those jobs available. Without success, you got to try harder, Phil PERSON. I keep going back. I'm 72 years old. I've been doing this since I was about 25.

Speaker 11521.84s - 1605.1s

You know, there are some great jobs out there. I mean, river rangers, I mean, you know, spend your week floating a river and camping out every night and making sure that the visitors are safe and not in any trouble. I've been reading this book, The Wolverine Way, that came back, came out a couple decades ago, I think, about Wolverine research in Glacier National Park FAC. And the things that these, you know, some of them were volunteers with the research programs and were, you know, full-time employees.But getting up in the middle of the night when the Wolverine PRODUCT trap alarm goes off and you've got to ski out there to the trap and, you know, sedate the Wolverine PRODUCT and do whatever you need to do, put in a transmitter or whatnot and let it go. I mean, waking up at 3 o'clock in the morning and having to ski, you know, 10 miles to this trap or whatnot, take some talent, take some physical attributes. And at the same time, you know, backcountry skiing. It opens it up for you there.So there is lots of parallels to recreation in a city park or a county park in the national park system. But I have to believe, Phil PERSON, that the biggest problem is what we've touched on is the salaries in the housing situation. If you can't solve those conundrums, I don't think you'll be able to, you know, fill all the jobs that

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you need to fill. Well, and I think the hiring process itself is very cumbersome. You know, people go to USA GPE jobs and fill out applications, and then the applications are sent to our Washington office, and a lot of people don't want to go through that process. They're not sure how to use it. And if you go online, or maybe it's just because I'm a former park service person, I see a lot of questions and answers online because therearen't personnel people available in parks anymore.

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People have questions. Well, how do you, how do you do this?

Speaker 21647.9s - 1715.36s

What kind of application should I have? How much detail should I provide? What happens can I apply for more than one part? I mean, there's a ton of questions and there's no one there to answer the questions anymore. And there used to be personnel staff, uh, located, especially in bigger parks and smaller perks used to get assistance from the bigger perks. And there were peoplein the regional offices around a country that could provide assistance. You know, people have questions about retirement and benefits and you know, they's just, they're just not accessible anymore. And the park service continues to my utter amazement and disappointment to, to centralize those systems. And instead of things getting better, it's getting worse. And the reason why are they doing that?Well, they're trying to be more efficient. You're trying to save money. Well, I think at some point in time when you're trying to be efficient, if you go too far, instead of that being a good thing, it becomes a bad thing. Yeah. And I'm afraid and I don't know,

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you know, I'm not there every day and you know, an old guy and they're probably looking at me and say, well, you know, you're just not with it anymore. But I think I'm not alone in feeling this

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way. You know, a lot of my old guys and gals friends who work for the National Park Service

Speaker 11735.66s - 1743.42s

field, I think, very similarly as I do, that things are just not working as well as they could.

Speaker 21744.06s - 1745.68s

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 11747.58s - 1748.2s

Well, listen, enough of the doom and gloom.

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It's springtime.

Speaker 11755.92s - 1777.68s

It's springtime in much of the country, although here at Traveler headquarters in Utah GPE, it's still snowing. The good news with that is we need the moisture and I don't have to cut the grass. But getting excited about traveling out into the parks. You know, my wife and I are supposed to go up to Grand Teton in June for some paddling on Jackson Lake LOC, which is full. Thank goodness. What do you see on your end of the country? I mean, you've got to be getting excited

Speaker 21777.68s - 1811.46s

about hitting great smokies or going up to the parkway. Yeah, you know, I work in the Smokies for 11 years and the Blue Ridge Parkway for eight years and, you know, we're slammed with people. It's great, but it's still possible, just like you talk about in Yosemite LOC or some other parks. You know, you'd say, well, look at all the people, 15 million people, 16 million people come to this park, four million people in Yosemite and I found Yellowstone LOC. But you can go to these parks and there's

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plenty of places that you can still go. Yeah. And, uh, and enjoy such incredible beauty and have

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such a fantastic experience, um, you know, that I really hate to dwell on the doom and the gloom because over 300 million people are still coming to the national parks. All right.

Speaker 11832.9s - 1848.46s

Now, hold on, hold on. The Smokies LOC, I've been there several times. And one of the last times I went there, I was told to go visit Catalucci PERSON because people don't know about Catalucci PERSON. Is that still the case or has it been discovered?

Speaker 21850.08s - 1875.78s

Oh, it's been discovered, of course, but it's not as busy as other places in the Smokies LOC. You know, the last numbers that I saw, which has been a while. You know, there's like 2 million people that visit the Smokies in the Gatlinburg area. 2 million people in Cades Cove GPE, two million people up on top of the mountains and a little less over in Cherokee GPE. So it can be busy, but there's 900 miles of trails too.

Speaker 11876.06s - 1876.62s

Yeah.

Speaker 21881.86s - 1898.98s

And if you go on one of the more popular trails, you're going to find a crowd. Now, what I was said in the Smokies, we had a long, long survey going that began way back in 1952. We surveyed the public to find out what they thought about their experience in case COVID can take you several hours to drive around

Speaker 11898.98s - 1908.54s

that 11 mile loop road. Yeah. But 82% of the people that we I think that's just fine. They're okay with the

Speaker 21908.54s - 1913.6s

crowds. And if you're not okay with the crowds and you don't know what Catalucci PERSON is, it's the

Speaker 11913.6s - 1927.16s

smaller version of Cades Cove GPE. And when I was there, I had it to myself. And granted, this was in the late 90s. So it's been a while. Well, and we reintroduced elk back in, let's see,

Speaker 21927.22s - 1980.9s

what year was that? Somewhere around the year 2000, I believe it was, 2000, 2001. And a lot of people are now driving there to see the elk. We have volunteers who help manage that. They call the Bugal Corps. And it's a beautiful place. And the Blue Ridge Parkway, you know, 16 million people, the most visited unit of the National Park System is right next door. Not a lot of people say, yeah, but look at all the commuters.Yeah. Those numbers have been excluded. The $16 million doesn't include them. But once you're on those, once you're on the Blue Ridge Parkway FAC, it's easy to find places which aren't crowded and extraordinary views and a biodiversity.

Speaker 11980.9s - 1983.94s

Such as. Nobody's listening.

Speaker 21983.94s - 1986s

We can share these secrets. Well, there's a lot. Such as. Such as. Nobody's listening. We can share these secrets.

Speaker 11986s - 1994s

Well, there's a lot of favorite drives, you know, that you can take and really not find huge crowds.

Speaker 21994s - 2026.9s

And days of the week and time of the day, you know, you have to consider all those things. But in the smokey in this region, we've got national forests surrounding the parks, you know, and they're all as busy as the national park units. But a beautiful, incredible hundreds of thousands of acres of resources. Now I'm sounding like a travel tourism promoter, but it is. It's really a special, special, amazing place.

Speaker 12027.48s - 2029.22s

And all the surrounding communities.

Speaker 22030.02s - 2031.8s

Talk about local, local color.

Speaker 12032.46s - 2035.92s

Yeah, you know, the parkway was all about drive a while, stop a while.

Speaker 22037.06s - 2067.2s

And I remember when we had the 75th anniversary of the parkway, I was superintendent at that time. And we created a board and we had someone from every county all 29 counties run the board to the plan for the 75th anniversary with the idea of talking about driving a while and stopping a while and sharing what was in the local communities the things there are to see and do and and but then on the parkway we're always trying to take care of the scenic

Speaker 12067.2s - 2074.08s

views, the view sheds. And so, but there's just some amazing spots here. And Yosemite LOC,

Speaker 22074.8s - 2088.88s

can be terribly crowded in, in the valley, as you know, but hop on the roads and get out of the valley, head to Wobon hour, you know, head up. Tiago Road FAC.

Speaker 12089.46s - 2098.6s

Pyago Road FAC, one of the most beautiful places I've ever been to, get on a trail, see the falls.

Speaker 22099.2s - 2101.14s

That is just amazing. Yeah.

Speaker 12101.34s - 2106.84s

You know, one thing I'm going to be watching this year, how are gas prices affecting

Speaker 22106.84s - 2114.46s

travel? How is the, the RV industry is down, sales are down. People who bought RVs during the

Speaker 12114.46s - 2137.7s

height of the COVID pandemic are rethinking that strategy. I noticed for the first time and maybe forever that some of the concessionaires were saying, hey, it's March, and there's still plenty of availability in our summer lodges. I wonder if we're going to see a decline in visitation this year because of the cost of travel. Maybe so.

Speaker 22137.9s - 2169.4s

I always thought that gas prices was one of the most important indicators of what kind of season that we were going to have. But now I think it's more complex than that. I think the other costs are also having impacts. And you know, taking some of the disposable income, uh, housing costs, you know, and there's one and inflationary costs in the grocery store, which I think is declined, but people still, I think feel that the prices are higher than they were.Yeah.

Speaker 12170.04s - 2172.84s

Even those items that are more expensive.

Speaker 22173.34s - 2188.28s

So, yeah, I think the economy is sort of complex, and I'm not sure exactly what the key indicators are. But certainly gas is one of them. Cost of motel rooms probably has an impact too.

Speaker 12189.12s - 2198.36s

Park logic. Three, four, $500 a night. Exactly. So let me ask you, you've been up on the hill talking to

Speaker 22198.36s - 2206.46s

Congress ORG folks. Are there any park issues aside from the budget that are being talked about that we should watch for?

Speaker 12207.66s - 2212.02s

Well, I think global climate change is certainly one of the most important.

Speaker 22213.48s - 2225.34s

And, you know, I think about cities too, like down in Miami GPE. I think Miami has begun to, in New York GPE. I just read it in an article the other day about building higher walls.

Speaker 02226.38s - 2232.02s

So, yeah, because of rising sea levels in Miami GPE, I know, had talked about that.

Speaker 12232.08s - 2238.62s

It's going to impact the Everglades LOC for sure and other parks, coastal parks around the country.

Speaker 02240.08s - 2242.68s

Air quality continues to be a problem.

Speaker 22242.68s - 2277.68s

We need to solve the air quality problem. It's impacting human health as well as the health of our natural resources as well as our historic resources or cultural resources. And so, yeah, those things have to be addressed. We can't continue the way we always have. And we can't just set it aside thinking that, you know, people aren't telling the truth.I'm convinced that the scientists are doing a really good job of getting their numbers right.

Speaker 12278.6s - 2298.86s

You know, you mentioned cultural resources and, of course, National Park Conservation Association recently launched their call for a cultural resource challenge to get Congress to invest $250 million, I believe over a five-year period to help the Park Service ORG take care of its cultural resources.

Speaker 22300.24s - 2338.14s

And we're doing the same. The Coalition to Protect America's National Park ORG is also joining in in that effort with the same numbers. We think that's very important. Cultural resources are forgotten. And now we're adding new parks, which have cultural stories and cultural buildings that are going to need to be preserved and protected. And the stories told, all the stories.And that's one of the things that I really come to appreciate is we've got to tell the rest of the story. And I think that was Paul Herbie PERSON used to say that, right? Yeah.

Speaker 12338.48s - 2343s

Now for the rest of the story, I think there's a lot of rest of the story that needs to be told.

Speaker 22343s - 2344.08s

They really are.

Speaker 12344.28s - 2354.42s

And there's a lot of cultural resources across the park system landscape that are at risk from climate change, whether it's from flooding or just more precipitation

Speaker 22354.42s - 2364.44s

and what that's doing on some of these century old missions in the southwest or, you know,

Speaker 12364.54s - 2383.28s

several century old. You go to Pecos National Historical Park, and you look at that old Spanish NORP mission, what remains of it. Yeah, a lot of threats out there and decisions to be made and what do we protect, what can we protect, and how do we protect them.

Speaker 22384.52s - 2396.44s

Exactly right. And who is going to do the work to do that? And it all ties back into our earlier conversation with budget and staff and housing. It's all, it's all integrated.

Speaker 12398.82s - 2420.1s

Whatever happened, didn't Sally Jewell when she was Interior Secretary, called for a revival of sorts of the Civilian Conservation Corps ORG to engage young adults and maybe even mid-age adults to go out across the public lands landscape and tackle some of these projects that need to be tackled?

Speaker 22420.94s - 2461.26s

Yeah, I think that's right. If I remember right, I remember meeting her when she came to the Smokies many years ago and conversation about that. And, you know, thankfully, there are a lot of youth organizations that exist. You know, but here's a reminder. And I'll tell you a story to make my point. Way back in about 96 in the Smokies LOC, we decided that we needed to increase the number of volunteers.So we sent out a news article and we got so many phone calls that it shut down our phone system.

Speaker 12463.1s - 2471.5s

And we went, we went from having maybe a couple of dozen of volunteers to 2,000 volunteers.

Speaker 22472.24s - 2472.54s

Wow.

Speaker 12473.14s - 2480.42s

And so same thing with student like student conservation association, other organizations, very much like that.

Speaker 22480.94s - 2532.04s

You know, you're finding Newsevity ORG and so forth. But you've got to have someone to manage that. You've got to have some equipment for the people to use. All of these things have to be fundedand supervised and organized and orientation provided to the students and participants. And there's nothing, almost nothing is free.You know, it always costs money. And I was saying yesterday to someone, I said, you know, making these decisions a matter budget, it's like deciding, you know, which child do you love the most? You know, they're all needed and they're all important. You care for them all, but you can't fund them all.And so how do you address that? Not easy. No, it's not.

Speaker 12532.5s - 2587.82s

And I think one thing that gets in a way is a lack of public awareness because the park service doesn't promote itself as it should be, doesn't promote itself as a career for people. And maybe it can't. I don't know what the restrictions are. I know they can't advertise for some strange reason.But, you know, building up to the Centennial back in 2016, there was a lot of public awareness, corporate awareness. And I worry that some of that has fallen off that you know well we got to the centennial and things are good and let's turn our direction someplace else but as we've been talking for the past 40 minutes there are a lot of needs out there across the park system both in terms of budget needs and muscle needs and it just it never ends but I thinkpublic awareness can really help combat that, many of those things.

Speaker 22587.82s - 2608s

Yeah, and that's why we're doing this today, I think, is to help with public awareness and a lot of social media efforts have been made over the years and reaching out. And it's not, well, it's good as important and nothing is just important as actually being in the place itself

Speaker 12608s - 2615.36s

yeah yeah having that experience i wish i wish there was a way that we could bring more people to the

Speaker 22615.36s - 2638.7s

parks and to experience what the opportunities are right i mean not talking about visitors but maybe maybe programs once the visitors are there that have young kids, we have programs for kids, of course. And I think many, many of our employees actually come from those programs. But maybe the park service could do more of that.

Speaker 12639.72s - 2676.86s

Well, I think it goes back to that public awareness. I know I grew up, a-class family in New Jersey GPE. I never knew about the park service. I never knew about the Student Conservation Association ORG. A lot of these programs that are out there today that can introduce youth to the parks,they're so very valuable, but they have to reach all segments of youth. And that perhaps is a challenge. But yeah, you introduce people to the parks and the possibilities just expand in terms of what you want to do with your life, what impact you want to have.Yeah.

Speaker 22677.24s - 2715.28s

And I think organizations like NPCA ORG and our coalition, we're trying to address that too. We're trying to reach a broader audience and be inclusive, you know, when thinking about careers and when we think about stories that need to be told, you know, and places that need to be protected, those are important. I hope the National Park Service is successful. I don't know what structure needs to be in placeto make that more possible. I know that whatever declining staffs and budgets is going to be very hard.

Speaker 12715.9s - 2722.38s

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely need more historians to both investigate these stories and tell these stories.

Speaker 22723.38s - 2725.24s

Yeah, exactly right.

Speaker 12726.78s - 2728.9s

Well, Phil, I appreciate your time today,

Speaker 22729.2s - 2731.32s

and enough of this doom and gloom.

Speaker 12732.7s - 2736.36s

Well, you know, there's no way to tell the story that we have

Speaker 22736.36s - 2740.14s

without it sounding a bit desperate.

Speaker 12741.82s - 2746.6s

You know, but once you're in there, you know, once you're there, once you're

Speaker 22746.6s - 2753.54s

there, once you're an employee, it's a pretty darn good experience. And I don't want that to be

Speaker 12753.54s - 2759.8s

forgotten for sure. Yeah, yeah, there are definitely worse places to be. And from time to time,

Speaker 22759.8s - 2764.88s

we get complaints about our podcast being too political. And, you know, politics are part of the

Speaker 12764.88s - 2765.16s

parks. And if you part of the parks.

Speaker 22765.34s - 2770.46s

And if you can't clear that funding hurdle, the experience is just going to go downhill.

Speaker 12771.3s - 2781.28s

And it's been an ongoing uphill struggle. And I look forward to the day when the Park Service ORG has more money than knows what to do with. Me too.

Speaker 22782.86s - 2783.68s

All right, Phil PERSON.

Speaker 12783.76s - 2797.52s

That's Phil Francis from the Coalition to Protect America's National Parks ORG. Check out their website and look into the Cultural Resource Challenge and lean on your congressional delegation to encourage them to get behind it. Thanks again, Phil PERSON. Thanks, Kerr.

Speaker 22802.08s - 2803.34s

That's our show for this week.

Speaker 12803.58s - 2830.56s

We hope you found it interesting. While we don't like drilling down into politics and the national parks, the two are inseparable, and it's important to understand how 535 politicians in Washington, D.C. GPE, can help or hurt the national parks. For the traveler, this is Kurt Rappencheck PERSON. See you in the parks.The composers and musicians at Orange Tree Productions

Speaker 02830.56s - 2888.62s

have created a unique collection known as the National Park Series that has grown to include more than 30 CD titles. Composed against the backdrop of a park sounds of nature, these musical scores will connect you with these beautiful places and take you there, at least in your mind. This collection is the number one selling National Park Audioseries in the world and provides the background music for National Parks Travelers' ORG podcasts. Visit them at Orangetree Productions.com ORG. Editing and production work for the National Parks Traveler podcast is done by Splitbeard Productions ORG. You can learn more about us at splitbeard productions.com ORG. National Parks Traveler is a 501c3 nonprofit media organization that provides daily editorial coverage of national parks and protected areas. Traveler ORG's coverage is made possible by reader and listener donations.Visit us at National Parks Traveler.org.