Loneliness & Isolation: Shocking Impacts

Speaker 00s - 6.1s

When we talk about social interactions, there's three components that are important.

Speaker 26.46s - 102.86s

Reward and motivation. You get a gold star for saying dopamine, stress responses, and social cognition. What often happens when you isolate animals or humans, you see a lot of stress features get kicked up because it's stressful to be alone. And you also see an attempt to find reward. So there's this sort of like motivational component to when I'm alone, I need to not be alone. And I know there's always going to be people who are like, I like being alone. Leave me alone. Generally speaking, being socially isolated and loneliness actually poses risk factors for mental health and also for physical health.In the past 20 years, social engagement in general has taken a dive, internet, social media, but this was all exacerbated by COVID-19, where there was an even greater decrease in the size of people's social network, and this leads to an increase in loneliness. Even perceived social isolation can lead to things like poor decision-making, avoiding future social contact, increased substance use, which can be a damage to your health and also to other relationships, which promotes furtherisolation. It seems that we have what's referred to as a homeostatic need for social contact that is likely modulated by dopamine and this reward system. It's built into us to have it feel good when we connect with other people. An earlier mortality rate is associated with a lot of these things that we see surrounding loneliness.

Speaker 1103.56s - 111.42s

In older age, it shows that the longevity of anyone is increased drastically by the strength of their social connections.

Speaker 2111.42s - 130.52s

We thrive when this aspect of our neurological makeup is stimulated and supported. And we don't just thrive in terms of brain health. We thrive in terms of our whole body. And yeah, our spirit as well, our emotional place. Us feeling we're connected and we belong, that's what social connection does. That's what keeps you young.

Speaker 0131.2s - 143.88s

It's MyN. Bealliolik PERSON's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing or two. So now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down.

Speaker 2144.44s - 145.58s

Hi, I'm Myam Beaelic. I'm Jonathan Cohen. And welcome to our breakdown. It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down. Hi, I'm I'm Bielick PERSON.

Speaker 0145.86s - 146.64s

I'm Jonathan Cohen PERSON.

Speaker 2146.84s - 147.76s

And welcome to our breakdown.

Speaker 0148.42s - 150.82s

This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to.

Speaker 2151.7s - 152.8s

Today's all about connection.

Speaker 1153.5s - 154.14s

Let's connect.

Speaker 2155.08s - 163.84s

We got a question from someone asking us to review some of the aspects of an episode we did with David Rico PERSON.

Speaker 1164.34s - 165.22s

Who's David Rico PERSON, mine?

Speaker 2165.58s - 176.34s

David Rico PERSON is a therapist who... We love a therapist. We do love a therapist. Who did a tremendous amount of his research and work at Esselin back in the day.

Speaker 1176.54s - 177.22s

What's Esselin ORG, mine?

Speaker 2178.72s - 183.96s

Esselin is a center in Northern California LOC. It's known for very...

Speaker 1183.96s - 184.88s

All the hippies go there.

Speaker 2185.1s - 189.16s

Well, it's known for very progressive psychology research.

Speaker 1189.66s - 190.28s

Way out there.

Speaker 2190.58s - 204.02s

Well, not necessarily way out there, but it's a place that is open to modalities like somatic work and things that used to be considered kind of fringe aspects of psychotherapy, which are now, in many cases,

Speaker 1204.28s - 209.44s

standard for psychotherapy. It used to be way out there. Then it got incorporated into mainstream.

Speaker 2209.74s - 212.82s

That's right. And now it's old news. Now instead of being way out there, they're like,

Speaker 1212.86s - 218.44s

oh, you were ahead of your time. Right. So David Rico PERSON taught there and actually just has a,

Speaker 2218.44s - 227.14s

had a very interesting path. He wanted to be a priest. And he ended up, you know, doing work really about how we connect.

Speaker 1227.66s - 255.98s

David Rico wrote books like How to Be an Adult in Relationships WORK_OF_ART, very important for connection, because if you're connecting from your kid parts, you may be not showing up the way you want to. When the past is present is one of his books, he's written a lot of books. It's hard to actually find all the titles. Five Things We Cannot Change, Triggers, Daring to Trust WORK_OF_ART. He is actually one of the foremost experts on human connection and how to be in a relationship that works.

Speaker 2256.62s - 267.78s

He identified what was called the Five A's, and that's what this question was that came to us. The question came from, Gen X, Biocch, on YouTube ORG, how can a child who has never received the

Speaker 1267.78s - 273.42s

five A's learn to navigate life? Was that that user's given name? No, that's just what I call them.

Speaker 2273.48s - 280.14s

Okay. If you've never received the five A's, which David Rico PERSON talks about is being very important

Speaker 1280.14s - 285.96s

for you to maintain and have healthy attachment and healthy connection with others. How do you navigate life?

Speaker 2286.26s - 295.04s

So I don't know that I can answer that question today, but what we're going to do is a little bit of a dive into what's actually going on in the brain when we do connect.

Speaker 1295.04s - 300.02s

So you're suggesting that there's a list. We love a list. Yep.

Speaker 2300.84s - 303.54s

And it's not that people just don't connect.

Speaker 1303.68s - 313.58s

It's like fundamentally growing up, we can receive these things on this list, and we will be better at connecting than if we don't receive these things on the list.

Speaker 2314.2s - 334.24s

Well, I think, I don't want to say better at connecting because that feels like we're ranking people. But I think the notion that for some people, it comes easier than others. And understanding David Rico's PERSON work is one of the ways that we can learn how to be an adult in relationships and identify where connections maybe didn't happen and where we might have a tendency to not be able to pursue them. Amazing.

Speaker 1334.58s - 346.94s

If you're listening at home, you can make a little note. See how many of these you have received. Let's look at the list. Number one thing. Attention. Attention.

Speaker 2346.94s - 350.96s

If you've received attention. So what does attention look like when you're a child?

Speaker 1351.4s - 356.42s

It looks like when you need something, someone is there to receive that need. Doesn't mean you

Speaker 2356.42s - 387.24s

always get it, but having someone pay attention to your needs. And this can even be, you know, something that you may not even have memory of when you're pre-verbal, you know, were your, were your caregivers distracted, you know, were they needing to take care of their own needs so much that you didn't get the attention you needed? So it doesn't just mean praise. Like, praise is actually a very controversial topic in parenting circles, meaning attention is not just about positive praise. It's about knowing that someone's there for you. That's what getting attention is not just about positive praise. It's about knowing that someone's there for you.That's what getting attention is.

Speaker 1388.18s - 390.32s

Number two, acceptance.

Speaker 2391s - 432.42s

Acceptance. Feeling that your caregivers, and I'm using caregivers, you know, could be your parents, could be whoever took care of you, could be a nanny, could be a grandma, a grandpa. Feeling accepted.Like, you see me the way I am and that's okay. I don't have to change to make you comfortable. If this is sounding foreign to you, you're not alone. But that's what the notion of acceptance is, feeling accepted. You know, if you're different, if you have different physical abilities, different cognitive abilities, if you don't fit, let's say, the designated sex or gender, you know, that culture has assigned you. You want to be accepted the way you are.You want to feel that you're okay the way you are. That's what acceptance is.

Speaker 1434.58s - 441.4s

And of course, these are all on a scale. It's not necessarily everything about you is accepted all the time. Did you get any of it?

Speaker 2441.84s - 442.4s

Sure.

Speaker 1444.86s - 450.88s

Any acceptance is what we're looking for. They're actually much more aware now that comparing children to one another within a family

Speaker 2450.88s - 464.48s

sets up a dynamic where no one feels accepted. Well, all of these things get more complicated in a family dynamic, for example, in attention, is there one member of the family who needs more attention than others? It could be a child.

Speaker 1464.52s - 465.06s

Because they're the most special? Well, it could be they're attention than others. It could be a child.

Speaker 2465.06s - 468.16s

Because they're the most special? Well, it could be they're the most special. It could be they have the

Speaker 1468.16s - 473.96s

highest needs. Could be that they're just better at everything. Could be, but we don't need to

Speaker 2473.96s - 486.28s

talk about your childhood. But yeah, attention gets divided once there's more than one child. And, you know, sometimes children who are easier, or, you know, they say sometimes there's a more

Speaker 0486.28s - 495.44s

congruent match between children and parents. And I'm sure if you're part of a family, you experienced it, even if you're an only child, you know, sometimes you just, like, relate better

Speaker 2495.44s - 503.52s

to one parent. That can be more of what we call like a congruent match. There's more congruency, which means it's easier, easier to accept that kid or...

Speaker 1503.52s - 505.06s

That's the parent that lets you do whatever you want.

Speaker 2507.02s - 509.28s

Number three, appreciation.

Speaker 1510.06s - 510.62s

Appreciation.

Speaker 2510.94s - 565.94s

You know, what that looks like is I'm a valued member of this family, right? Or I'm a valued member of this relationship. These things don't only occur in a child and caregiver situation. These are also things, you know, sorry, we should have said that, these are things you need in any relationship you have, friendship, romance, even work relationships, but it starts, obviously, in the home. So appreciation means there are things about you that areunique and they're appreciated, they're valued, and that's expressed. You know, a lot of times, you know, as adults, we sometimes say to parents like, you never, you know, you never told me I was good. And a lot of parents will say, like, I thought you knew, right? This is what it is. Being able to say, I appreciate what you do. A lot of families who bless their children on Friday nights in Jewish homes, a lot of people will whisper something to each child that they appreciate about them, that they did that week.

Speaker 1566.08s - 567.26s

What did you whisper to your kids?

Speaker 2568s - 589.38s

I often do something funny because they feel very self-conscious, especially when we're around other people on a Friday night for me to bless them. They have to stand, and now they're taller than me. So a lot of times it'll be something funny, like you didn't annoy your brother to the point that he hit you this week. But it is an opportunity.You know, how do you build that in to any relationship? How do you, I don't know, have I told

Speaker 1589.38s - 596.2s

you I appreciate you today? No. No. Can I sign up for the Friday blessing? If you want to

Speaker 2596.2s - 600.86s

sign up for the Friday blessing, send us a message on Instagram ORG. We're going to start a Friday

Speaker 1600.86s - 613.42s

blessing. Uh, WhatsApp group. Who knows? We're going to figure it out. Number four is allowing. Allowing. I allow you to explain what this next one is.

Speaker 2613.88s - 626.44s

Yeah, so the notion of allowing is a sense of freedom, you know, being given space to be allowed to be yourself. This kind of has overlap for me with acceptance,

Speaker 0626.9s - 631.34s

but allowing is also the notion that I can try new things, and that's not threatening to you.

Speaker 2632.38s - 637.04s

Anyone grow up in a home where if you went outside the bounds of what the family established,

Speaker 0637.04s - 643.22s

it was like, nope, don't get too excited, don't get to this, don't wander there, don't run with a knife

Speaker 2643.22s - 646.96s

in your hand. Or why would you want to do that? That's not something you like.

Speaker 1646.96s - 652.52s

Right. Being allowed to succeed also has inherent in it, being allowed to fail, you know, to

Speaker 2652.52s - 664.58s

experience things. I was given an assignment by a mentor of mine this week. She wants me to tell her what I fail at this week, not in a self-deprecating way, but what did I try and do that was a lesson, you know, so being allowed to do that.

Speaker 1665.12s - 669.38s

Not that we talk about business on this podcast, but failing quickly is an essential part of trying

Speaker 2669.38s - 675.42s

something new. I fail quickly all the time. Sometimes I feel slowly. Number five, affection.

Speaker 1676.36s - 683.78s

You know, you'd think this was kind of easy. Overlap with attention, ish? No. No. Yes. I mean,

Speaker 2683.78s - 686.6s

if you're receiving affection, it means someone's paying attention.

Speaker 1686.76s - 688.18s

Someone acknowledges you exist.

Speaker 2688.18s - 700.78s

But not always, because if you're given affection in a way that feels haphazard, that feels misdirected, that feels manipulative, inappropriate, that is a disruption to, you know, affection and obviously attention.

Speaker 1701.86s - 708.42s

Affection is a very important part, well, of life for humans. But more generally

Speaker 2708.42s - 713.36s

speaking, it's incredibly important for all primates. You know, Google your favorite primate,

Speaker 1713.42s - 719.26s

if humans is not it. It's actually very important for all mammals. So anything that, you know,

Speaker 2719.32s - 724.36s

that has a live birth, right? And nurses, it's young. Go ahead and think of a whale.

Speaker 1724.36s - 727.12s

Have you ever seen a sea lion sneeze? That's

Speaker 2727.12s - 734.38s

amazing. Yes, but that's not affection. But if you've ever seen a sea lion and it's pup, it's... Sneasing.

Speaker 1734.62s - 747.92s

No. It looks a lot like a lot of other mammals. You know, even whales, you see physical attention that typically moms, you know, pay to their babies.

Speaker 2748.48s - 753.96s

So, you know, affection is not just a way that you know that you matter.

Speaker 1754.1s - 755.32s

It's actually critical.

Speaker 2755.72s - 758.66s

And, you know, we'll get into this probably a little bit when we talk a little bit more about

Speaker 0758.66s - 759.36s

the science here.

Speaker 2759.82s - 799.74s

But it's actually necessary for, you know, the development of all the brain structures that subserve the way that we know that we matter and feel connected to other people. And, you know, inappropriate affection can really disrupt that system. Lack of affection can disrupt that system. You know, we've talked about these horrible accidental experiments when children have been, you know, left in, in orphanages without, you know, any affection or stimulation or attention and the, you know, the significant andharrowing impact on, on the ability to attach, you know, even when rescued from that situation. So, so those are the five A's.

Speaker 1800.18s - 812.38s

So what you're saying in those experiments is that without these informative years, it makes connection and attachment, if not impossible, much, much harder. Yeah.

Speaker 2812.46s - 867.9s

I mean, I was speaking specifically about, you know, like touch, you know, the importance of touch and attention that way. But, yeah, the notion is, you know, there's a lot of silent ways that we can show that there's been damage, meaning, you know, sometimes it's very clear if someone can't be touched, won't be touched, you know, if you've ever gone to, you know, we went to an adoption center, just we were looking at those dogs, and you can tell the ones that have been hurt and are afraid of people, right?You can see that in humans as well. And, you know, that's a trauma response, right? And all, most animals, I mean, all animals have the ability to exhibit that. I mean, I had a bird for 12 years, you know, and you could definitely tell when there was fear at a, you know, and we'd take her to the vet and things like that. So, so it's not just mammals, you know, that experience that. My MIELX Breakdown is supported by Delete Me ORG.

Speaker 1868.46s - 872.12s

I'm pretty positive. More of your personal data is out there on the internet for anyone to

Speaker 2872.12s - 967.84s

see than you might think. Your name, your contact info, social security number, home address, even information about your family members, all being compiled by data brokers and openly sold online. Anyone on the web can get your private details. And this can lead to identity theft, fishing attempts, harassment, unwanted spam calls. We recently found a solution to protect our data with Delete Me ORG, a subscription service that removes your personal info from the largest people search databases on the web.And in the process helps prevent potential ID theft, doxing, and fishing scams. I know, actually, more than three people who have been victims of identity theft, not to mention basically everyone that I know is annoyed by spam and robocalls on at least a weekly basis, if not daily. Privacy matters. Now that I found Delete Me ORG, I can rest assured that my private personal information is safe, which is especially important to me as a person who exists publicly.But Delete Me's ORG interface is incredibly simple to use, and they quickly find and remove any personal information that you don't want online, and they make sure it stays off. Sign up and provide Delete Me ORG with exactly what information you want to delete it, and their experts will take it from there. Delete Me sends you regular personalized privacy reports showing what info they found, where they found it, and what they removed. And this isn't just a one-time service. They're always working for you, constantly monitoring and removing personal information you don't want online. Take control of your data, keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me now at a special discount for our listeners. Today, get 20% off your DeleteMe ORG plan when you goto join DeleteMe.com slash breakdown and use promo code Breakdown WORK_OF_ART at checkout.

Speaker 1968.34s - 985.82s

The only way to get 20% off is to go to join Deleteme.com slash breakdown and enter code breakdown at checkout. Join DeleteMe.com ORG slash breakdown code breakdown. My and Beallax Breakdown is supported by Song Finch ORG.

Speaker 0986.88s - 995.4s

Play them loud, watch them land, dancing loud, listen back, and recognize that's a track.

Speaker 2995.86s - 1079.86s

You know when you're listening to a song on the radio and you get the feeling that the song playing was written about you, well, imagine having the power to gift that incredible feeling to someone you love with an original song from Song Finge that actually is written just for them. Jonathan PERSON and I actually worked together on creating our own song with the Song Finge ORG musician. That's the song you're hearing now. It turned out incredibly special, very personal to our relationship. We are extremely thrilled with it. The process was super simple and really fun. My favorite part was choosing the genre and the artist,and I just want to make all the songs now. Song Finch ORG lets you create an original radio quality song inspired by your own life, people you love. It's completely unique, personal, and lasts forever. Here's the process. You tell them who the song's for,what style of song you want, and then you share some personal details about your relationship. Then an actual songfinge musician, who you choose will write, record, and produce your original song in just four to seven days. There's unique add-ons that can make it even more special, like a vinyl record of your song or a one-of-a-kind art made from your lyrics.You can even add your song to Spotify ORG. With more than 350,000 happy customers, SongFinch is proud to be called the number one custom music company in the world. Maybe you want to do a song for Mother's Day, Father's Day, upcoming graduation or a wedding, maybe just to show a loved one how much you care. Start your song now to lock in a top Songfinch artist. Don't waste another dollar on more stuff. Get a radio quality original song that is totally unique to your relationship.

Speaker 11080.36s - 1099.7s

For limited time, Songfinch is letting our listeners upload their song to Spotify ORG for free so you and the lucky person you gifted to can listen to it anywhere anytime. Go to Songfinch.com ORG slash break and start your song. After you purchase, you'll be prompted to add Spotify ORG streaming to your original song for free, a $50 value.

Speaker 21100.2s - 1149.02s

Again, the URL is songfinch.com slash break. Don't forget to share your song with us too, songfinch.com slash break. Don't forget to share your song with us, too. Songfinch.com slash break. So these five A's, you know, to go back to the original question, you know, if you don't have those, and no one has them perfectly. I think that's also important. Very few people. And that's not to say that there are no good parents or no good relationships. But as humans, we struggle. And, you know, these are ideal categories that we want to try and hit. So how can you navigate, you know, without these things? I mean, I think David Rico's PERSON book,How to Be an Adult in Relationships WORK_OF_ART is an excellent place to start because it literally goes through each of these A's talks about what it looks like, what it could look like for you, and how to sort of literally actively repair that. And there's really great exercises in that book.

Speaker 11149.08s - 1153.68s

And we talked about that here. Also, mine Bialy's Breakdown episode with David Rico PERSON is a fantastic place to start.

Speaker 21153.92s - 1167.76s

That's really good because we cover a lot of the basics. But what Jonathan and I thought might be helpful to do today is to actually break down, what is connection? What is it? What is

Speaker 01167.76s - 1174.68s

social connection? When we talk about our social world, what matters about it and what is the brain

Speaker 21174.68s - 1223.96s

actually doing and why when we connect with people or when we don't connect? So I want to give a shout out to a really fantastic, you know, large review article that was published in Neuron in the end of 2023. And the title is characterizing the mechanisms of social connection. So I'm kind of basing our conversation off that. I want to give credit where it's due. It's Delgado, Ferreari, and Chang PERSON are the authors.And it's a beautiful, very long, very detailed summary of a variety of different categories of social connection. And we wanted to highlight some of them today. So when we think about our social world, why do we socialize? Jonathan PERSON? What are some reasons we socialize?

Speaker 11225.08s - 1227.18s

To try to get some of the five A's?

Speaker 21228.38s - 1251.24s

Great. So to form relationships. And forming relationships, so you can do two things with relationships. You can form them and you can maintain them. So anyone who knows what it's like to be charismatic on a first, second, and third date knows, that's building a relationship. It's what happens from date four on that's actually maintaining it that can

Speaker 11251.24s - 1263.96s

be hard for people. I mean, also my answer is a little bit sarcastic. Like, we have fundamental drives to maintain connection for survival. Correct. Band resources together, hunt and gather

Speaker 21263.96s - 1265.38s

together. Great. Food defense together, hunt and gather together.

Speaker 11270.14s - 1271.02s

Great. Food, defense, you're much more likely to get picked off if you're not part of a group.

Speaker 21271.02s - 1274.1s

You want to procreate and pass your jeans on.

Speaker 11274.56s - 1276s

It's as if you prepared for this episode.

Speaker 21276.46s - 1314.5s

So in terms of social connection, right, it's a way to establish relationships, to maintain relationships. Also, to learn about others, right? Because we learn about ourselves and we learn about others. That's just a thing that happens. But Jonathan PERSON hits on a really important component. When we connect socially, it's actually a way to reduce uncertainty about future interactions. That's sort of the scientific technical phrasingfor what you said. So there's a social reward that's involved with having relationships. It's kind of why we have them. And yes, it's fun and it's nice and sex feels good and so it's cuddling and holding hands. Who else is going to send you the funny gifts?

Speaker 11315.68s - 1324.48s

And it's nice to get funny gifts. But there's a social reward that is built in to this system

Speaker 21324.48s - 1332.76s

so that we can essentially maximize our survival. So some of the things that happen in social reward is that you feel like you belong, right?

Speaker 11333.06s - 1335.54s

You don't want to make the Instacart PRODUCT order by yourself.

Speaker 21335.76s - 1377.56s

That's right. But what's incredibly important to understand is that you actually maximize your physical wellness, your mental wellness, and some might say your spiritual wellness, right, your emotional, you know, wherewithal. So those things are also improved by being in social interactions. Now, Jonathan PERSON gives a really simple example, like, you don't want to hunt alone on the prairie. You just don't.It's not going to go well. You can hunt a bunny. Even that you might want a friend for. But in terms of when we think about survival, you don't want to hunt alone. What's another thing you don't want to do alone? You know, sleep? No, it's not sleep.

Speaker 11377.68s - 1381.94s

What are you looking for? Raise children. Oh, yeah. You don't want to do that. No one. No other

Speaker 21381.94s - 1386.92s

primate does what we do. And we're not saying that all the single

Speaker 11386.92s - 1392.02s

people out there who decide to have children or... No, but what a lot of single people do is they have

Speaker 21392.02s - 1399.76s

a support network. And even when people choose to have a child, we hope that they have friends,

Speaker 11400.2s - 1406.6s

you know, family members, someone extended, but the notion that human beings, even for people who don't

Speaker 21406.6s - 1412.84s

couple up, the notion that we're going to put you and a baby in a room alone and see what happens.

Speaker 11412.92s - 1413.72s

You're going to lose.

Speaker 21413.96s - 1414.8s

You're going to lose.

Speaker 11414.88s - 1417.38s

It's never been the way that primates do it.

Speaker 21417.88s - 1421.54s

So the notion that we need to be together.

Speaker 11421.76s - 1425.14s

Even only two people raising a baby is not a good idea.

Speaker 21425.14s - 1425.54s

It's kind of a mess.

Speaker 11426.04s - 1429.54s

Well, especially if those two people are of opposite gender,

Speaker 21430.02s - 1458.82s

meaning typically females would group together with like-minded primates who typically are female. Sometimes there was always that one dude chimpanzee in the documentary who was like, I hang with the ladies, and good for him. He was very helpful. He held the baby.He picked some berries. There's always that one dude. Just some people like to sleep alone, and that's a thing. But evolutionarily, yes, sleeping alone is very, very vulnerable. It's like the best way to be picked off by a predator.

Speaker 11462.14s - 1462.76s

Unless you're indoors and then it's a little safer these days.

Speaker 21464.66s - 1466.38s

This is why Jonathan PERSON likes to sleep alone. And look, there's a lot of scientific research

Speaker 11466.38s - 1487.94s

that sharing a bed actually decreases your restorative sleep time because when someone else pulls the covers off of you or turns in bed. Jonathan PERSON is the exception to every primate rule. There's a lot of disruption. Quick anecdote. My son's mom and I did not have any help.We were in Los Angeles by ourselves.

Speaker 21488.08s - 1490.92s

I thought you meant we're sleeping. It's like it's usually kind of just happens.

Speaker 11492.24s - 1500.62s

And we raised our son for like the first four years without babysitters. That was not the best idea for our sanity.

Speaker 21500.9s - 1502.9s

No, that was very, very, very difficult.

Speaker 11502.9s - 1509.22s

You needed that chimpanzee dude who was like, I'll take a shift. We really did. No one wants my sperm, so I'll hang out here.

Speaker 21510.76s - 1519.4s

We needed that neighbor. So the topic of connection has always been important, but there's kind

Speaker 11519.4s - 1524.7s

of two recent things that have happened, and by recent, I mean, in our generation. There's two

Speaker 21524.7s - 1529.5s

recent things that have happened that have drawn a bit of attention. I mean, in our generation. There's two recent things that have happened that have drawn a bit of attention. I mean, the internet? Are we going there?

Speaker 11529.68s - 1532.84s

I mean, social media, I think, you know... That is not social connection.

Speaker 21533.98s - 1540.06s

Okay. Dr. Cohen PERSON has spoken. Right. This is an incredibly important topic because there's been

Speaker 11540.06s - 1545.54s

this trend to look in our, you know, in our phones more than we look at other humans. And for young

Speaker 21545.54s - 1553.3s

people, it's, it's an epidemic. It's observational. It's comparative. You know, people talk about it like

Speaker 11553.3s - 1559.62s

it's the popcorn of social connection where what we're really craving is rich nutrient dense meals.

Speaker 21561.28s - 1569.06s

Well, our brains actually are craving nutrient dense meals, but we're kind of being, you know, main-lined popcorn.

Speaker 11569.32s - 1570.88s

Yeah, so we're all nutrient-deficient.

Speaker 21570.88s - 1623.54s

And many of us are allergic to popcorn, and we just don't know it. It's upsetting our tummies. But anyway, it's not a bad metaphor, you know, for social media and the Internet, you know, kind of shifting the way we interact. And the other thing that happened recently was there was a global pandemic. And I think we forget. I don't forget, because every time I sit in this room, I remember us saying, we're doing this podcast because everybody's isolated and there's a global pandemic and we don't even knowwhat's going to happen and there's no vaccine. It was terrifying. And it led to a tremendous amount of isolation. And some of it was, we are now finding out possibly more detrimental in terms of social development, especially for young people, than it was helpful. This is not a place to discuss that politically, but we basically did anexperiment on ourselves in terms of social connection and interaction that we're now seeing the

Speaker 11623.54s - 1636.44s

impact of. There are a lot of emerging studies that are saying that children, especially the younger ones, are developmentally behind their grade levels. Their grade levels are not up to what the expectation was.

Speaker 21636.44s - 1638.48s

They're out of their minds, kids who were locked up.

Speaker 11638.62s - 1640.22s

I mean, yeah, kids, teenagers.

Speaker 21640.58s - 1643.04s

Still having fairly significant impacts.

Speaker 11643.04s - 1646.08s

And let's talk, again, about what's going on in the brain.

Speaker 21646.56s - 1654.46s

So there's three kind of components when we talk about social interactions. There's three components that are important. We've touched on them a little bit. I just want to go over the brief.

Speaker 11654.46s - 1661.38s

I like another list. Well, this is a quick list. The three kind of processes that are involved

Speaker 21661.38s - 1683.9s

in the kind of connection we're talking about. So Jonathan PERSON mentioned reward, you know, reward systems, motivational systems. What do we get from having social interactions, right? And we know that there's a reward motivation system already in the brain. So the question is, is that involved here with social interaction, the way we know it's involved with reward and motivation? There's also stress-related responses, right?

Speaker 01684.14s - 1714.3s

What's it like to be isolated? It typically brings up stress, and there's a whole bunch of research, often with animals. I'm just going to preface that. But we know what the brain is doing in stress, is that the system that's being recruitedwhen we talk about social connections and stress. And finally, social cognition and the processes of the brain that we know are established for us to understand what other people are doing, thinking, how they're behaving. We know what those structures look like from a ton of other research.How does it connect to social connection per se?

Speaker 11714.6s - 1715.5s

Give us the three again.

Speaker 21715.9s - 1746.82s

The three are rewarded motivation. So we know that circuit. If you're paying attention, you get a gold star for saying dopamine. She's going to talk about dopamine. And I am. So reward and motivation. stress responses, right? Because things that come up insocial interactions, especially when you're deprived of them are stress responses and social cognition. What do we know about what the brain knows about how to interact socially? So those are the kind of three categories that we know already exist in the brain, how do they connect to the notion of social connection?

Speaker 11747.34s - 1752.72s

So what we're saying is that when we have a social connection or when we don't, these three

Speaker 21752.72s - 1755.98s

systems of the brain are impacted.

Speaker 11756.42s - 1760.48s

You either getting something or you're being, you're not getting something.

Speaker 21760.48s - 1760.68s

Right.

Speaker 11760.78s - 1765.52s

So I'm approaching it from the position of, we know that there are

Speaker 21765.52s - 1788.78s

systems in the brain that govern reward and motivation. We know there are systems and links and connections, and we'll talk about them, that govern stress responses. And we know that there are systems in the brain that are in charge of social cognition. Do those relate to the kind of social interactions and social connections we're talking about? That's what we're going to be talking about today. We know that the brain is wired to understand reward and punishment and motivation, right?

Speaker 11789s - 1790s

We know that exists.

Speaker 21790.36s - 1806.64s

That's right, the carrot of the stick. We know that the brain regulates stress responses, and we know that the brain regulates how we interact socially. The question is, how did these systems relate to whether I am able to connect with another human being as a social person? Let's explore.

Speaker 11807.22s - 1810.8s

So I just want to mention the brain structures that are involved in these three different pathways.

Speaker 21811.1s - 1901.88s

So reward and motivation is the striatum, which is like the largest, the largest region of the basal ganglia. So like in the middle. And the ventromedial prefrontal cortex. So prefrontal cortex is this part in front. It's the special part that we, quote, higher, primates possess. And ventromedial just has to do with which region. It's ventral and medial.The stress pathways are amygdala, which we've talked about here that modulates fear, anxiety, and the hypothalamus, which processes a lot of different aspects of our human experience, physiological in particular, but also emotional. And then the social network is medial prefrontal cortex and the temporal parietal junction. That's the junction of the temporal lobe, which is the one that lays this way, and the parietal lobe, which lays this way. Those are the three anatomical categories that we're going to look at. So let's talk first about social isolation. So we'retalking about social connection. Let's talk about what happens when we're isolated. What often happens when you isolate animals or humans is you see a lot of stress features get kicked up, right? Because it's stressful to be alone. And you also see an attempt to find reward. So there's this sort of like motivational component to when I'm alone, I need to not be alone. What are the things I can do to not be alone? Or to think you're not alone. True. So this is

Speaker 11901.88s - 1905.72s

kind of an indication of, you know, if you think about what it means as a human,

Speaker 21906.18s - 1951.12s

it means that, and I know there's always going to be people who are like, I like being alone, leave me alone. But what we know is that generally speaking, being socially isolated and loneliness actually poses risk factors for health, right? For mental health and also for physical health. So there's all this incredible research that was done, and especially because of COVID EVENT, all this research is continuing to be done to see sort of what happened. In the past 20 years, social engagement in general has taken a dive because of the things that we talked about, internet, social media,but this was all exacerbated by COVID-19, where there was an even greater decrease in the size of people's social network, right? And this leads to an increase in loneliness.

Speaker 11951.76s - 1957.7s

USA Today, Americans are lonely and it's killing them how the U.S. GPE can combat this new epidemic.

Speaker 21957.7s - 1966.84s

It is something to think about. And even perceived social isolation can lead to things like, and this article talks about

Speaker 01966.84s - 1974.72s

it, poor decision-making, avoiding future social contact, meaning a fear of social contact,

Speaker 21974.92s - 1985.6s

resulting from lack of social contact, increased substance use, which can be a damage to your health and also to other relationships, which promotes further isolation.

Speaker 11986.12s - 1988.74s

They talk about loneliness being worse than smoking.

Speaker 21989.62s - 2007.14s

I can't speak to that because I'm not looking at the stats. But yes, an earlier mortality rate is associated with a lot of these things that we see surrounding loneliness. My and B. Alex breakdown is supported by Eight Sleep ORG.

Speaker 12007.48s - 2009.64s

At this point, we're pretty sure you've heard of Eight Sleep ORG.

Speaker 22009.8s - 2080.62s

Their buzzworthy sleep technology called The Pod PRODUCT can be added to your existing mattress like a fitted sheet to automatically cool down or warm up each side of your bed and in turn improve your sleep quality dramatically. Athletes, business titans, and celebrities all swear by the pod. So do we. Eight Sleeps launched their newest generation of the pod, Pod 4 Ultra PRODUCT. Cools, it heats, and now it elevates automatically. It's also clinically proven to give you up to one hour more of quality sleep every night.Pod 4 Ultra can cool down each side of the bed to 20 degrees Fahrenheit below room temperature, keeping you and your partner cool, even in a heat wave. There's just nothing else like it on the market. Pod 4 Ultra PRODUCT also introduces an adjustable base that fits between your mattress and your bed frame to add reading and sleeping positions for the best unwinding experience. And for those snore heavy nights, I know nothing about those,the pod can detect your snoring and automatically lift your head by a few degrees to improve airflow and stop you or your partner snoring. Plus, with Pod 4 Ultra PRODUCT, you can leave your wearables on the nightstand. It's integrated and imperceptible sensors, track your sleep time, sleep phases, heart rate variability, and heart rate with 99% tracking accuracy, just added easily onto any bed.JC, the mattress cover is something that you love, which has really improved your sleep.

Speaker 12080.62s - 2083.32s

I absolutely love the pod cover.

Speaker 22083.5s - 2087.18s

The temperature control is actually what gets me the most.

Speaker 12087.44s - 2092.04s

It increases my deep sleep and I'm just amazed at how much of a difference it makes.

Speaker 22092.42s - 2099.58s

Head to 8Sleep.com slash MBB. Use code MBB to get $350 off Pod4 Ultra PRODUCT. That's 8Sleep.com

Speaker 12099.58s - 2107.94s

slash MBB. Use code MBB for $350 off Pod4 Ultra. Eight Sleep currently ships to the United States, Canada, UK, Europe, and Australia GPE.

Speaker 22110.54s - 2113.72s

My Ambialx Breakdown is supported by Cozy Earth PRODUCT.

Speaker 12114.04s - 2116.18s

Picture this. You're planning your summer getaway.

Speaker 22116.48s - 2185.6s

What to eat, where to visit, what to do, where to sleep. Don't you also want the comfort of home while you're away? That's where Cozy Earth PRODUCT comes in to elevate your entire travel experience. Elevate your summer getaway with Cozy Earth's PRODUCT luxurious bedding and loungeware, ensuring the comfort of home wherever you roam. Use code break for 35% off at CozyEarth.com ORG. Experience the unmatched softness, buttery smoothness of Cozy Earth's PRODUCT bedding,surpassing even the finest hotel sheets for a restful night's sleep on your travels. Travel-friendly and hassle-free, cozy earth's bedding comes in super adorable totes, making it the perfect companion for your adventures near and far. Stay cool and comfy during long flights with Cozy Earth's PRODUCT temperature regulating bamboo joggers and pull-over crew, adding a touch of style to your travel ensemble. Whether you're exploring distant lands or enjoying a staycation at home, Cozy Earth PRODUCT has everything you need to turn every moment into pure bliss. We love Cozy Earth PRODUCT. My favorite thing is about how soft each and every one of theirproduct field. Their bedding is temperature regulated. It's a go-to for anyone I need a gift for, especially myself. Want to rest easy on vacay? Take a trip to CozyEarth.com ORG slash break. Type in our personal code break at checkout. You'll get an exclusive 35% off. That's promo code break for 35% off. It's promo code break for 35% off.

Speaker 12185.86s - 2208.52s

It's our way of saying thanks for listening. Oh, and one favor, choose podcast in the survey after ordering and then our show from the drop-down menu. That really helps the show and helps them know that we sent you and try out their products. They're really amazing. Happy sleeping. My MBLX Breakdown is supported by Airbnb ORG.

Speaker 22209.68s - 2370.7s

Jonathan and I both love staying in Airbnbs PRODUCT, especially when we're away for somewhere longer than a day or two. Helps me keep my nutrition on track. If I have a kitchen where I can cook and do all the things that I need, one of my other favorite things about staying in Airbnb ORG's is you get to stay in a novel place every time. You never stay in the same place twice. And it kind of feels like you'rehome away from home. I know so many people who could be hosting their spaces while they're away so that other people can enjoy them. And a lot of people don't realize they might have an Airbnb ORG of their own right under their noses. You might be thinking my space couldn't be an Airbnb ORG, but you know what? That's not true. If you're concerned about the time commitment, you can Airbnb your place even just like a few weeks a year when you're traveling, especially if you're someone who loves to host all those little details that really elevate a spaceand make it unique. That really matters. Airbnb hosting is a way to earn extra money and make sure that your space is being utilized, even if it's just when you're out of town. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host. It seems that we have what's referred to as a homeostatic need for social contact that is likely modulated by dopamine and this reward system. It's built into us to have it feel good when we connect with other people. So anyone who guessed that I was going to mention dopamine, again, you get a gold star.There are a lot of examples of animal research, like I said, in particular, where you see there's a mice study where you see them seeking, really actively seeking out novel social interactions after they've been deprived of social interactions. And that's associated with an increase in dopamine neurons, specifically in the dorsal raffa nucleus, which is really fun to try and dissect. But there's not much more I can say about it, except it's got a concentration of dopaminergic neurons. Also, the amygdala that we've talked about, there is research showing that if you activate the amygdala, you'll get this release,and it's a specific activation, not just like scaring mice, but that might happen. That kind of activation of neurons that are gabaergic, which is usually more of a downer of a neurotransmitter, can drive dopaminergic release in the ventral striatum, which is just a region of the striatum that's ventral, which promotes affiliative behaviors. And this is actually something that's in the title of my thesis, that people are always like, what's an affiliate of behavior? The desire to be aroundothers, which can look like grooming, it can look like cuddling, it can look like all sorts of

Speaker 12370.7s - 2375.3s

things depending on the animal. Not the bad type of grooming. Not the bad type of grooming,

Speaker 22375.48s - 2427.44s

the good type of grooming. In addition, you know how sometimes when you've fasted, if you've ever fasted, some people fast for religious reasons or just for, I don't know, dietary, nutritional reasons? Sometimes you have a craving for food, right? A specific craving. It seems that there's an equivalent for socialization. There's a social craving that can happen when you're properly, you know, queued. And craving for food and social contact can occur with the same system of the brain, right? And that's dopaminergically regulated as well, which is, you know,shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but the notion that it's not the food you're craving and it's not the social interaction you're craving, it's that the brain is wired for craving. It's wired to want something to get a reward, and that is governed by dopamine.

Speaker 12428.64s - 2439.18s

So how does knowing this change what we should be doing, or change how we understand what our motivations are that are driving?

Speaker 22439.58s - 2474.64s

Well, I think for me, what this highlights, and this is just one point, for me, what this highlights is that even when we're feeling lonely, even when we may actually be lonely, it's important to know there are behaviors that we can do which can get us hopefully back on track to some extent because ultimately our brains are wired for social connection and they're wired for it in a way that should feel rewarding. It should feel positive. And it will then have positive impacts on your physical wellness and your mental wellness.

Speaker 12475.76s - 2477.3s

What I hear also is that...

Speaker 22477.3s - 2480.62s

Everybody hurts. Sometimes. Everybody cries.

Speaker 12481.92s - 2496.66s

What I also hear is that when we are hurting, further isolation, which can be our tendency, takes us and creates a momentum that pushes us more into loneliness, more into isolation. And what I

Speaker 22496.66s - 2504.54s

think a lot of people don't realize is that the state that they find themselves in, depending on

Speaker 12504.54s - 2506.3s

how they choose to respond to that state,

Speaker 22507s - 2508.76s

you know, contrary action versus,

Speaker 12509.48s - 2515s

what's the opposite of contrary action? Non-contrary action?

Speaker 22515.36s - 2517.02s

Great. I thought there may be a better word for it.

Speaker 12517.08s - 2518.32s

Oh, no, active, yeah, no.

Speaker 22518.48s - 2521.58s

So like either I'm going against the state that I'm in

Speaker 12521.58s - 2537.26s

or I'm accepting and reinforcing, I think, is the word I'm looking for, the state that I'm in. That creates a momentum that is programming the brain. The brain becomes more socially isolated.

Speaker 02538.26s - 2542.7s

And the positive impacts that we're looking for become harder to get.

Speaker 12542.7s - 2549.34s

So, for example, feeling lonely, you can search for that dopamine hit by looking online,

Speaker 02549.48s - 2551.28s

but you're probably going to have empty calories.

Speaker 12551.42s - 2553.86s

You're not going to actually get the connection you're searching for.

Speaker 02554.5s - 2568.7s

Texting is slightly better, but also not great. And actually picking up the phone, which may be the hardest thing to do when you feel really lonely because you may not know who's around to call or you may not think that, like, making a call to anyone is better than staying in that isolated state.

Speaker 22568.7s - 2575.22s

Well, and the fact is even being around people, if you don't feel like interacting, can actually be healthy as well.

Speaker 12575.5s - 2577.84s

Go sit outside at a park or a coffee shop.

Speaker 22577.86s - 2580.82s

Yeah, I mean, don't be that creepy person alone outside a park, but yes.

Speaker 12581.56s - 2588.18s

Not a kid's park. Maybe go to an adult park. The duck pond. Oh, got it. Go to kid's park. Maybe go to an adult park. The duck pond. Oh, got it. Go to, great.

Speaker 22588.6s - 2589.94s

Being around people.

Speaker 12589.94s - 2595.08s

Anywhere, go sit at, get a meal out and be around other human beings.

Speaker 22595.34s - 2754.78s

And anytime you also can be in nature, I mean, this came up, you know, a lot in this, you know, giant review paper. Anytime you can be in, they call it naturalistic settings, anytime you can be in a more natural setting, we know there's so many positive benefits of that. So also, you know, there's many things that happen when you're able to physically get out of your space if you're able to get out of your space. So that's the first point. The other thing I wanted to mention is there's been, in terms of the stress response, remember we talked about the brain has this, you know, kind of stress component and how does that, you know, play into deprivation of socialconnection or a desire for social connection. One of the regions important is what's called the default mode network. And we actually talked about this in our South by talk. The default network is typically called a task negative network, meaning it's what happens when you're kind of a baseline, you know, where, what connectivity is happening when you're resting, right? However, there's been some really interesting research in terms of the default mode network in depression and that this network gets reinforced in ways that some of our baseline, you know, what we kind of colloquially call the default, like my default mode, right, is ruminating, that that can be kind of overactive in depression. And so loneliness anddepression are so closely linked. So this is also a region of cortex and also hippocampus and amygdala and all those regions and all these connections are also where some of this research is pointing. There's also a component of social connection that we can see protective benefits kind of across the lifespan. So obviously early in development is what David Rico is talking about, you know, these five A's and those are the things that we sort of look to first, you know, what's your home life like? But interestingly, you know,the teen years, which is a time and could be tween or teen, when children start to sort of detach and distance themselves from their parents, much to our dismay. And this often will happen with the mother before the father, which is, I think I've told that anecdote that apparently there's a pheromone that starts unconsciously being unpleasant to teenagers. And I remember when I found this bit of research out, I said to my children, did you know that there's a pharmon? And I think by then they knew what pheromones were,because it's something we talk about, that makes, you know, kids want to be like, not so much, mama. And I can't remember which of my kids it was, but one of them was like, yeah, I think that's happening. They're like, yes, you smell.

Speaker 12755.44s - 2757.22s

No, but it's not about smell.

Speaker 22757.78s - 2778.62s

It's a chemical thing. But anyway, the age at which we see that kind of separation is a time in life where hopefully adolescents are then getting some social reinforcement from friends, right? From the next sort of social cohort. For kids who struggle, this is going to be a hard transition time,

Speaker 02778.7s - 2784.06s

right? It's going to potentially increase isolation or loneliness if you have trouble connecting,

Speaker 22784.42s - 2818s

right? And add to that social media, the time that we're spending on our phones, add to that COVID-19. You know, we're talking so much about the significant, the astonishing, significant increase in reports of anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, suicide attempts among young people. This is this transition period that we know is so critical for social interaction and for social connection, which over the last 20 years, the chips have been

Speaker 12818s - 2823.68s

stacked against us, really all of us. And then it comes back again as we get even older.

Speaker 22824.44s - 2856.94s

In older age, it shows that the longevity of anyone is increased drastically by the strength of their social connections. And there's been so much research. Why are people living longer in, you know, name it. There's some communities in Greece and there's some in Japan and Northern Europe. And everybody's saying, is it the olive oil? Is it the twigs? Is it the way the clouds form? Guess what? It's social interaction. It's people who are spending most of their time with other people playing games, playing shesh-besh, what do you call it? Backgammon, you know, doing Tai Chi ORG. Drinking good olive oil.

Speaker 12857.16s - 2862.6s

Drinking good olive oil. No, but in Northern Europe LOC, some of the happiest reported places in the

Speaker 22862.6s - 2891.64s

world. And I know people like, it's because of social democracy, maybe. But one of the reasons that we know that it is, and we know this from what the brain, like literally the brain is telling us, we thrive when this aspect of our neurological makeup is stimulated and supported. And we don't just thrive in terms of brain health. We thrive in terms of our whole body. And yeah, our spirit as well, our emotional place. Us feeling we're connected and we belong, that's what social connection does. That's what keeps you young.

Speaker 12892.14s - 2894.84s

Feeling like someone cares about you. Someone wants to check in.

Speaker 22894.94s - 2900.34s

You have someone to go for a walk with or play the game with. The game of life?

Speaker 12901.28s - 2902.5s

All very important.

Speaker 22902.5s - 2906.52s

One of my favorite sentences in this article in Neuron ORG, quote,

Speaker 12906.82s - 2911.62s

even the maintenance of weaker social ties has been associated with lower levels of depression,

Speaker 22911.88s - 2913.34s

end quote. So like,

Speaker 12913.46s - 2916.96s

so even the people that annoy you are helping you out.

Speaker 22917.2s - 2920.04s

It doesn't even have to be good. You don't even,

Speaker 12920.24s - 2921.16s

you don't even have to like them.

Speaker 22921.16s - 2921.76s

It's like pizza and sex.

Speaker 12922.76s - 2925.28s

Even some pizza is better than no pizza.

Speaker 22925.56s - 2946.42s

That's right. Even cold, crummy pizza. At least it's pizza. And of course, we're not saying if you're in an abusive relationship that those social ties are better than none. Like if you're in a situation that is not safe, that is not healthy, absolutely, we needyou to get out. But even a D&D game once a week can be helpful.

Speaker 12946.42s - 2983.38s

This is important because I think people in the effort to optimize to be more productive, they start to look at relationships, especially as you get really busy at work, maybe in your 30s, in your 40s, you're like, these are the time that I have to, I have maybe have young kids, I have a family, I have my career, like, I have the time that I have to, I have, maybe have young kids, I have a family, I have my career, like, I have the people that I've grown up with, but then, you know, these new people, and you start to see, like, how much room do I really have in my life?And there is a finite amount of room, and you can get into a bad trap, or some people can get into a bad trap of, like, what's this relationship providing?

Speaker 22984.18s - 2986.72s

It's lowering your depression, even if it's not that good.

Speaker 12987.36s - 3018.64s

And I think it's important to recognize, you know, I think especially having moved away, it's hard to keep connected to a lot of people I grew up with in Toronto GPE and the time zone is tough and, you know, to keep those relationships. But to isolate from them and not put that effort in, thinking about that as actually having intense health outcomes, that's really interesting. And I had a conversation a couple weeks ago now with a friend who I grew up with.I grew up playing hockey with him at six years old.

Speaker 03019.32s - 3022.52s

And I played hockey with him for years.

Speaker 13023s - 3056.5s

And we went to school together. We went to summer camp together. And then, you know, we each had families. We grew apart. But getting on the phone with him for 40 minutes, hearing his voice brought me back to those memories of all those times when I was younger. There's the magic word. And all of a sudden, I felt this, like, sense of renewed aspect of myself that I hadn't really felt connected to previously. It's like going and having that conversation with him, even though we weren't even talking about those old times, just reconnecting.

Speaker 23056.96s - 3059.92s

All of a sudden I had like more of a sense of myself.

Speaker 13060.04s - 3061.18s

I'm going to tell you why right now.

Speaker 23062.48s - 3063.26s

Let's hear it.

Speaker 13063.62s - 3065s

It's your striatal neural circuits.

Speaker 23065.3s - 3067.12s

I knew it was my striatal neural circuits.

Speaker 13067.12s - 3074.36s

Well, the rewarding value of social interactions is encoded in our memory.

Speaker 23075.04s - 3077.2s

And so think about all the different kinds of memory there are.

Speaker 13077.2s - 3079.08s

We just have parties at his house when his parents were home.

Speaker 23079.08s - 3120.52s

Okay, so that I don't want to talk about it. But think about all the different components to memory, right? What happens? Like, if you, you know, if you close your eyes But think about all the different components to memory, right? What happens? Like, if you, you know, if you close your eyes and think about, you know, what's one of the happiest moments you can remember from your childhood, you know, like, it could be a sport, it could be, you know,a toy you played with, it could be a meal, a Christmas, you know, like any of those memories. Like, when you experience a memory, right, it does something. Like, Christmas, you know, like any of those memories. Like when you, when you experience a memory, right, it does something. Like you feel it if you're, you know, kind of tuning in somatically. You're not just thinking something. Your body is experiencing something, right? Well, everything we think creates a cascade of neurochemicals. Right. So,

Speaker 13120.72s - 3132.44s

of course. Duh. Like it does. So that coding of memory surrounding social interaction is incredibly important.

Speaker 23133.02s - 3165.58s

So why? We know, and this is just, you know, kind of there's very basic experiments. People are more likely to want to think about positive social interactions that they had with others, even if they're of negative things. So I'm sure there's many things you did that we don't need to talk about positive social interactions that they had with others, even if they're of negative things. So I'm sure there's many things you did that we don't need to talk about. But you can have a positive social interaction about a negative event, right? Meaning, like, oh, we broke into that house or whatever you did, not you, someone. The positivity is in the camaraderie, the connection, you know, the... Not getting caught. Not getting caught.

Speaker 13165.66s - 3166.86s

Okay, so maybe that's not a great example.

Speaker 23167.06s - 3187.5s

But when people recall these kinds of memories, these positive memories, that's what I mentioned. We know that it's recruiting these striatal neural circuits when we're recalling these memories. And positive memories of, you know, previous social interactions have an impact on the decisions

Speaker 03187.5s - 3196.86s

you make about further connections in the future, meaning, you know, it feeds on itself and it grows.

Speaker 23197.24s - 3216.24s

If you had positive experiences that you then choose to recall and you choose, you know, to remember, in theory, it can lead to choosing more like that. Now, I think a lot about, like, the people I went to college with. You know, there's always, like, that dude who wants to talk about college, like, five years after college.

Speaker 03216.32s - 3223.12s

And then, like, 10 years. Exactly. There's that dude, right? And sometimes it's a lady. But, but, you know, there's.

Speaker 23223.22s - 3227.14s

We were the best friends. Right. Okay. So that guy may be onto something.

Speaker 13227.36s - 3237.92s

He may be recruiting the most triadal neural circuitry for that. But it's this reinforcing value, right? And that's like reward, its motivation. What am I driving towards?

Speaker 23238.52s - 3242.12s

That can lead to positive decision making. I want more of that, right?

Speaker 13242.5s - 3278.34s

This is fascinating. I fully experienced this. So, you know, living in a small town that I've just moved to in the last year, I don't have those connections in the town I live in. And it's easy to be like, I have work, I have my kid. I don't know this person. Am I really going to be friends with them after playing pickleball a couple times? Like, is it worth it? And I don't consciously make that trade-off, but I can feel myself unconsciously making the trade-off or evaluating it.

Speaker 23278.74s - 3282.98s

Could I really see myself being friends with this person? What effort do I have to go through?

Speaker 13282.98s - 3289.4s

What's the risk and what's the reward? And how motivated are you? Exactly. And these are all different systems in the brain, right? They're all

Speaker 23289.4s - 3294.94s

different parts. And I can feel myself calculating that and feeling risk adverse because of how much

Speaker 13294.94s - 3339.96s

I have on my plate, really. I'm like, oh, I'll just cook another meal or spend time with my son or do some self-care. And interestingly, when you talk about that and when I think back to some of my happiest times, which often were either in summer camp or high school friends and we had that bond, it makes me more open, even not consciously, more open to thinking, oh, maybe there's that type of friendship, although different, but like the feeling of friendship is almost infectious.And the fact that that's possible by remembering those past memories, I think I can definitely feel, opens me up more to the possibility.

Speaker 23340.5s - 3366.44s

When you say that you're risk averse, what you really are is what's called afraid. And fear kills motivation. So the motivation to feel like I can put myself out there. I can meet a new person. Also, you're a shy person. You're a very, very cordial and amicable person.It's part of your nature. But it's also like it's hard to make new friends, even as a grown-up.

Speaker 13366.44s - 3372.68s

I don't like chatting that much. I have friends who are like, get on the phone. I'll call you out on this episode, Dean PERSON.

Speaker 23372.88s - 3373.72s

He's a chatter.

Speaker 13373.94s - 3383.52s

Dean is a chatty, Kathy PERSON. I hope you hear this. But I admire that about him because he can just drop into any social situation. I don't have that.

Speaker 23383.72s - 3401.9s

So what we're talking about, again, these are all different systems, right? We've got the reward system. We've got the motivation system. We've got the risk system, right? So what happens when you are recruiting positive memories and positive associations, it's making the motivation stronger, correct?

Speaker 13402.2s - 3412.46s

The potential for reward is greater and the risk gets smaller. So everyone talks about, oh, you have to just be in the moment, how about to only think about

Speaker 23412.46s - 3416.26s

right now. However, sometimes you have to think about what happened in college.

Speaker 13417.02s - 3436.32s

A neuro hack would be that before I go into a social situation, I spend a couple of minutes thinking about all the positive connections I've had, which will increase my motivation to have connection in the moment. And make you less afraid. And increase my activity in the...

Speaker 23436.32s - 3470.18s

Stryatal neural circuitry. So I'd like to take us from memory of good things to coupling. Okay. The first place I'd like us to go is it's a rough data point, but an important one. So we know that sharing experience can lead to social bond creation, right? That's kind of why we do things together, right?It increases our connection when we do something together.

Speaker 13470.34s - 3472.24s

And people want to get married for the tax benefits.

Speaker 23472.98s - 3490.22s

What about when we think about addictive behaviors? There's a lot of research about what happens when couples try to quit smoking. Is it easier for them to quit together than it is to not quit together and for one of them to quit?

Speaker 13490.38s - 3491.8s

What would you like...

Speaker 23491.8s - 3495.1s

Everybody wants to know. What would you think?

Speaker 13495.64s - 3504.4s

This is a hard one, because on one hand, if someone falls off the wagon, you're more likely to also fall off the wagon. You're like, oh, they're smoking. I'm going to smoke.

Speaker 03505.76s - 3511.46s

I want to say it's easier together, but I mean, this is an episode about connections,

Speaker 13511.64s - 3514.84s

so maybe it is easier together. But I don't know, for some reason, I think maybe it's easier

Speaker 23514.84s - 3547.9s

by yourself. So I don't have a definitive answer, but the analyses of the longest term, you know, kind of research in this have failed to produce reliable evidence of effectiveness in maintaining smoking cessation beyond six months. So this is a very interesting thing. The shared experience of smoking may aid in actually regulating emotional instability in a way that it feels safer for them not to quit smoking. Explain that.

Speaker 13547.9s - 3558.7s

So there's a family systems theory of what's called symptom system fit in which the act of

Speaker 23558.7s - 3573.48s

of smoking in this case is a communication function that facilitates a positive social support and maintains a dynamic even though the behavior is not healthy. Okay.

Speaker 13574.38s - 3594.18s

This is really interesting, and my example, you may be like, is not an exact parallel. But Larry David PERSON once described how, I think it was was him and I don't know if it was a wife or someone he was dating. He quit drinking coffee and the relationship couldn't continue.

Speaker 23594.18s - 3615.88s

So this is what it is. It's that even though we know that social connection can promote healthy behaviors and healthy and maybe if one is trying to quit smoking, it's easier because the other one's like, let's be healthy, we could do it, right? But there are also situations where shared interpretations can lead to basically joint bad decision making.

Speaker 03616.64s - 3621.14s

And what it is, if you think of like what's similar is we're in this together.

Speaker 23621.14s - 3624.84s

That's this podcast, just joint bad decisions.

Speaker 13625.42s - 3632.52s

But I thought it was interesting because the notion is, again, we're coded for connection,

Speaker 23632.52s - 3664.4s

but you can't always know how it's going to code, you know? But let's think of a simpler situation. What happens when two people look at a piece of art? Okay? This is the example that this article talks about. So they have the same visual perception of it, right?You're looking at it from the same vantage point, right? So nothing's like different about it. But everybody's going to interpret it differently. Why might we interpret a piece of art that we look at differently?

Speaker 13664.66s - 3670.7s

I mean, we are different people with different experiences. Okay. I know where I begin and you end.

Speaker 23672.1s - 3675.82s

My point is not why we shouldn't be codependent and have the same feelings about a piece of art.

Speaker 13676.12s - 3680.88s

Let's say it's a piece of art and it depicts a dog. Okay. You tend to really like dogs.

Speaker 23681.08s - 3689.84s

You have a past experience, positive experiences with dogs. I've been bitten and scratched by dogs. I may, just for that reason, be like, eh, doesn't do it for me. Maybe it's an

Speaker 13689.84s - 3699.82s

artist that I'm familiar with, that you're not familiar with. Maybe it's modern art, and you don't like modern art, but I really do. Colors I like. Colors you don't like, etc. Great. So these are the

Speaker 23699.82s - 3731.7s

differences. But what we know is that having a shared mutual perception of something fosters a social connection, right? So this is not to say you have to like the same kind of art, but there's a very elaborate calculation that is done. I mean, think about any social situation. Think about any situation of peer pressure. What does it mean to want to fit in? What are we actually wired for?

Speaker 13731.96s - 3738.02s

It's an interesting balance because you don't want people who are exactly like you because you want

Speaker 23738.02s - 3764.66s

novelty, you want someone to add something that you hadn't thought about and have some contrasting views. You want to be pushed in your thinking and how you feel. On the other hand, you want enough overlap that there feels like a similarity and a connection point, and that's a pretty intricate balance. Right. And I'm bringing up this painting, this art example,because that's one of the examples, and it's one of the easier ones to put people in an fMRI scanner

Speaker 03764.66s - 3768.26s

and say, like, what does their brain look like if they agree, if they don't agree, what's their

Speaker 23768.26s - 3805.6s

perception? Ventrometrial prefrontal cortex is what is active in these sort of kind of, you know, calculations about what's the meaning of this, and what does it mean if someone else agrees with me about this, right? But another great example of this is what happens during gossip, right? That's technically a maladaptive behavior, meaning talking about other people when they're not there, especially disparagingly, is actually not a healthy thing.But why do people gossip? Why is this part of essentially how we're wired and have to fight against? Having a mutual understanding about something can make you feel more connected to a person,

Speaker 03805.76s - 3826.44s

even if it's a mutual understanding about something that really doesn't feel so good, right? And they measure this by, there's really interesting ways that psychology measures this. They measure eye contact and how often people turn awayand body language and all these things. But mutual understanding is important. And, you know, one of the places I know that you like to connect,

Speaker 23826.98s - 3856.6s

which is actually talked about in this article, is watching television together. And this is not something that I really enjoy doing with another person, not necessarily. I really like watching by myself. Also, that's a different story. But there's something really interesting that happens when people are consuming the same stimulus, like movies or TV shows.

Speaker 13856.78s - 3858.44s

And this is different than Netflix and Chill PRODUCT.

Speaker 23859.08s - 3864.52s

This is different than Netflix and Chill PRODUCT. So there's something called temporal synchrony.

Speaker 13867s - 3873.06s

And what they see is... It's going to be the new Netflix and Chill PRODUCT. Let's get our temporal synced. Temporal synchrony is seen

Speaker 23873.06s - 3913.96s

in brain regions supporting social cognition when people are watching something together. So temporal synchrony has to do with its neural synchrony. It's firing. I'm not here to explain why or why not synchrony is actually determining accuracy. But for the purposes of this review article, which is in one of the most respected medical journals in the world, I'm going to go ahead and say this temporal synchrony is observed, and the interpretation is that these two peopleare experiencing something together, and that feels like closeness.

Speaker 13914.58s - 3918.48s

What about if it's just music?

Speaker 23918.9s - 3967.64s

Let's talk about what shared experience is. So in this case, nonverbal facial expressions. So that can happen during music. So let's expand it out and say nonverbal facial expressions. Laughter, chit chat between dyads. That's what they call it two people in a study is a dyad, right? Those kinds of things, nonverbal communication like, oh, did you see that? Did you hear that? Was that funny to you, right? That shared experience is what is leading to this synchronization. And it's nothappening when you're alone. I mean, sometimes I do talk to people who aren't in the room. But those communication skills is, what they're doing is it's helping me build a model of what's important

Speaker 13967.64s - 3973.36s

to you, right? And in codependency, what's important to you is important to me. But that's taking

Speaker 23973.36s - 3984.6s

into the extreme. That's taking it to the extreme. In a healthy relationship or a healthy interaction, and this again doesn't have to be with just a lover. It could be with a friend. Oh, we're sharing this together. This is funny. We're looking at it together, right?

Speaker 13984.6s - 3991.22s

But take that one step further. And like some of the people I'm closest with, we're sharing this together. This is funny. We're looking at it together, right? But take that one step further. And like some of the people I'm closest with, we used to go on canoe trips together.

Speaker 03991.92s - 4004.6s

You're going and venturing out into the unknown as part of a team, having a shared experience of something that is uniquely to the group, people that you would go to summer camp with when you're all together.

Speaker 24004.6s - 4010.76s

And that is an environment that is unique to that in that scenario. We're having a shared

Speaker 14010.76s - 4016.16s

experience. Things go well, don't go well. We navigate that together and then afterwards,

Speaker 24016.36s - 4109.48s

you know, there's a bond formed. That's exactly right. And I think, you know, when we think about sort of these three systems that we've talked about here, you know, reward and motivation and stress and social, like literally the social cognition of human interaction, these are all systems that are occurring at the same time. They're overlapping. It's very, very hard to parse them out. But I think, you know, if I had to sort of sum up these, like, overarching principles here,loneliness is a real thing. It's a real thing, and it can be very hard to escape it without the proper motivation. And without really being able to call on enough resources to remember the reward waiting for you so that you are more motivated to push aside the risk that we know is involved with interacting. And not connecting socially is stressful. It's stressful to the brain. It's stressful to the body. And we are wired to do things to correctthe stress that comes from isolation. We're wired for that. There's a lot of things that impede it, but that's what we're wired for. And finally, the notion of I have a way that my brain understands what it feels like to connect. And I can recruit that. I know how, but I need to, again, be able to

Speaker 04109.48s - 4115.02s

navigate the risks and the rewards and be motivated enough to engage in those things to get

Speaker 24115.02s - 4122.96s

that ultimate reward of social connection. I mean, even finding a way to have a watch party on a

Speaker 14122.96s - 4128.26s

phone for something that you're binging is healthier than doing it by yourself.

Speaker 24128.6s - 4134.44s

Sure. And some things it's fun to do by yourself. Like some things you like to watch. I'm one of the only

Speaker 14134.44s - 4142.12s

people I know who likes to watch Narnia. Over and over. And Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit WORK_OF_ART over and over and over again.

Speaker 24142.12s - 4147.36s

And that's something, I mean, I am happy for other people to watch, but, like, if they talk,

Speaker 14147.4s - 4157s

I don't like that. And I want to be able to say the things that I want. I want to be able to cry when I want to. So certain things it's okay to want to do on your own. It's a little ritual, cathartic ritual for you.

Speaker 24157s - 4174.94s

It can be a cathartic ritual. But, you know, even parallel play, which toddlers tend to participate in and often, you know, for kids who are on the spectrum and also even teenagers and adults on the spectrum, parallel play is a very comforting way of having social interaction without having to also like...

Speaker 14174.94s - 4230.82s

This is actually a really interesting point. And the explosion of at-home work in the last three years has really taken away something from us. You know, everyone thinks about, is it more productive? Is it not productive? You don't have to have the commute. But also, what we lack is the fact that we're not around the energy of other people working. And that can have a huge detrimental impact on our focus, our ability to be motivated.So for us, we're a fully remote company at the company I co-founded, it's very often that you'll ping someone on Slack and be like, hey, are you around? You may have a question and you're like, oh, are you working on something right now? Oh, yeah, I'm also working. Let's just kind of hang out. And it's been shown that people, their focus increases, their motivation increases, their feeling of, you're accountable to.

Speaker 24230.82s - 4243.78s

You're accountable to someone. You may not get up and wander off and get a snack as much. You may, you know, feel like you have much more. There's no real better word than feeling connected.

Speaker 14244.4s - 4253.24s

And, you know, it's kind of getting over that hump of it being like this strange thing of, oh, let's just hang out on camera together doing parallel play.

Speaker 24254.24s - 4265.4s

Valerie brings up a good question. Also, you know, is it the default mode network that leads us to want to be isolated? And how do we know what's healthy alone time versus what's not healthy alone time.

Speaker 14265.48s - 4266.1s

That's a great question.

Speaker 24266.46s - 4309.18s

It very well could just be the default mode network. More likely, it's a combination of all of these different components we're talking about. And given your physiology otherwise, your neurophysiology, given other aspects of depression or anxiety or all of those things can be, you know, can be acting on all of these systems. And, you know, I haven't as yet heard of like, oh, you can be born with a gene that disrupts your default mode network. I don't think it workslike that. And so, you know, a whole set of regions. But when we talk about depression and misregulation of things like the default mode network, you know, that's going to look like isolating to some people. And it may look like other things to other people, but that's going to also depend so much on your particular,

Speaker 14309.42s - 4333.94s

you know, genetic makeup. What about practical ways to be like, am I isolating because I need to recoup and restore? And sometimes, you know, you do need a little time alone versus am I doing that to a point that can be detrimental. And for me, I definitely toggle a line between not being totally sure sometimes when I have to do paperwork.

Speaker 04334.2s - 4338.5s

It's much more helpful if I like call you on the phone and be like, hey, I got to just do something.

Speaker 14339.08s - 4344.06s

Sometimes we'll be cooking and just have each other on the phone. And sometimes they're like,

Speaker 04344.12s - 4347.66s

are we talking? No, we're just kind of hanging out. How do you know?

Speaker 24348s - 4395.84s

Or how do people know in general? The question that I'm hearing you're asking is also, there's something to, you know, a sense of parallel play and camaraderie. But the question that I'm hearing you asking is, how do I know if I'm isolating or just having alone time? The answer to that for me is check yourmotives. Because if you are motivated by fear, meaning fear of being around other people, fear of what you look like, fear of how you sound, fear that your hair doesn't look right, fear that you put on weight, if you're motivated by fear, chances are, that's isolating. If you're motivated by an independent desire to have an experience that is preferential alone, me and Narnia PERSON, so I could cry by myself and people won't tease me.

Speaker 14396.54s - 4401.32s

Are you afraid of being teased, though? No. That's me checking my motives and saying,

Speaker 24401.64s - 4415.02s

I'm not watching Narnia PERSON alone because I'm afraid of what it would be like to watch with other people. I'm watching because I seek pleasure and enjoyment from doing this activity alone, not because I'm afraid of what happens if I'm not alone. That's isolating.

Speaker 14415.26s - 4420.54s

And are you drained or restored after the time alone? Yeah, you can do the introvert extrovert

Speaker 24420.54s - 4467.28s

test for this as well. You know, introverts are going to tend to want to do more things alone and they're going to feel more depleted when they don't. So there's also, you know, you have to take into account where do I fall on that scale. But in terms of if I really, for example, if there's a movie that I really want to see and I don't like watching movies in a movie theater alone, but I'm afraid to ask someone, and I end up going alone. It's good to go alone, but that was motivated not by the desire to sit alone in a movie theaterbecause that's cool and it's what I like to do, and I know a lot of people. I actually love going to the movies alone. I get to stretch out. I pick my seat. I don't have to take somebody in the bathroom, if it's a child or an adult. But that's really, for me, that's the check-in.

Speaker 14467.92s - 4471.4s

So let's wrap this up. Let's summarize. What do we learn today, Ma'am?

Speaker 24471.64s - 4511.78s

Well, when I think back to the question from our Ask Miami-M ORG anything that brought us here, how do I learn to navigate in a world if I haven't had, let's say, the optimal five A's, you know, presented to me? And what we've talked about today is, I hope, some basic understanding of how the brain is wired, what social connection looks like, whether it's romantic or friendship, or even in a work environment. If you are missing, you know, any of these A's, it can look like a lot of different things. I'm not going to say it looks like you can't interactsocially. But a lot of us have fears about social interactions based on a lot of different things. I'm not going to say it looks like you can't interact socially, but a lot of us have fears about social interactions based on a lack of attention, affection,

Speaker 14512.52s - 4521.8s

allowing acceptance or appreciation. Appreciation. So if you find yourself a person who is isolating

Speaker 24521.8s - 4541.42s

or not really enjoying social interaction or questioning why everyone's telling you to put down your phone. Maybe this is something to look at. Are there messages from when you were very little that might have disrupted, you know, the way that you want to approach social interactions? And what are some of the things that you can do now to try and repair that

Speaker 14541.42s - 4552.22s

for your own good? If you have a question, ask my anything by sending us a DM on Instagram or post a comment on YouTube ORG. We love comments on YouTube ORG.

Speaker 24552.38s - 4553.04s

We love questions.

Speaker 14553.42s - 4561.48s

We do love questions. You never know if your question will be featured in an upcoming AMA WORK_OF_ART episode or, in this case, it could turn into its entire own episode.

Speaker 24561.54s - 4565.64s

That's right. And that was all thanks to at GenXBiach ORG.

Speaker 14566.88s - 4572.12s

Her given name. If you haven't already subscribed to the show, please do so. It really

Speaker 24572.12s - 4577s

helps support what we're doing and allows us to do more. You can subscribe anywhere you get

Speaker 14577s - 4581.26s

podcasts and follow the YouTube ORG page. Click the little bell notification for new episodes.

Speaker 24581.74s - 4585.24s

And from our breakdown to the one who hope you never have. We'll see you next time.

Speaker 04586.06s - 4588.22s

It's MyN. Beaulix Breakdown.

Speaker 14588.34s - 4590.08s

She's going to break it down for you.

Speaker 24590.22s - 4593.32s

She's got a neuroscience PhD or two.

Speaker 04593.4s - 4598.74s

One fiction. And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down.