Mike Duplan

Speaker 30s - 23.62s

What's up, everybody. I've got Mike Duplan PERSON on the podcast. This isn't his first time on here. I'm trying to think. This is your third or fourth time on here, I guess. But yeah, what's going on, dude?How's Colorado GPE?

Speaker 029.92s - 35.96s

How's Colorado? Well, it's cloudy and cool today, which is kind of a nice break. It's more seasonal than it's been warm this last week. But, yeah, lots going down here.

Speaker 337.12s - 48.92s

Yeah, yeah. I mean, anybody that is paying attention to Colorado GPE right now, there's a lot of crazy stuff going on. And it doesn't look good, but we're trying.

Speaker 050.58s - 71.64s

Yeah, it's ground zero in the battle between us and the animal activist industry. So they've chosen Colorado GPE because they've got friendly folks in the governor's office to push forward their agenda. So I'm sure this isn't lost on anybody. Most people are probably pretty up to date on what's going on down here.

Speaker 371.98s - 117.08s

Yeah, it's wild. Well, yeah, Mike's always a good interview. You know, Mike actually had sent a list of a few different things to talk about. I think, man, honestly, the Gore range hunt is, it's cool, but I think one of the things that would be, I think the hunting for exception animals and the career path in the hunting industry would be, you know, maybe what I would want to cover first, as bad assas your other hunt was, we can kind of cover that in the end. But the exceptional animal thing, I think, is always good to get a perspective from kind of your side and in mind where I'm more of a quantity guy and you're definitely a quality, you know, guy and what mindset it takes to get there. Sure, yeah.

Speaker 0117.24s - 195.38s

And there's definitely some things a guy has to do. And it really kind of ties all together. And I would say the number one thing you have to do is you have to have the time to do it. And it's, you know, one of the limiting factors in Colorado GPE is just the season dates. And when you have, you know, such as a fourth season is only five days long, that creates a real issue when you're trying to hunt for a really good deer. You've only got five days to do it.So people are burning, you know, 25 preference points on some of these tags and they've got five days to do it. And it presents a real challenge for people. So there's a, you know, when you start lining up what it really takes to do, you know, there's obviously you need the time. You need to, one of the things you have to be able to do is to be able to pass up animals. And you're not going to go home with something big if you're shooting a mediocre animal in the second day. And a lot of people don't have the ability to do that.And I understand it. It's, you know, everybody's got their own value set here. But there's no way you're going to consistently kill big animals if you settle for something in the early part of your hunt. So, you know, you really need the time and the ability to pass stuff up. So those are probably two the biggest keys when it comes down to hunting for big animals.

Speaker 3196.02s - 246.84s

Well, I think a couple of the things that, I mean, and it's hard to tackle this all at one time. Time's definitely a big one, you know, the passing things up, which I am not good at. Also knowing what an actual big animal, you know, is, these are all things that are going to, I mean, people can say they're trophy hunters pretty easily if they're just shitty hunters because it's an easy way out. And I know actually a lot of people like that, an easy way to just say, I never saw anythingbig enough, which there are a lot of those people out there. And I mean, more power to you. You know, but the thing is, is knowing what a big animal is. And I've called Mike on more than one occasion because I'm like, dude, what does this score? Because you are anally retentive, definitely taking away some inches like very reserved in your scoring, I would say.

Speaker 0247.6s - 275.86s

I tend to plant towards the conservative side when throwing numbers at something. And so I'd much rather be wrong on the underjudging than overjudging. So, you know, having the big eyesand overjudging something, you just tend to look foolish. If you underjudge something and it looks bigger, it's like nobody really cares there. It's like, oh, good, nice surprise. But if you're saying, oh, man, that's a $2.10. And he ends up being like $1.85.And he looked like an idiot.

Speaker 3276.62s - 278.52s

So there's that.

Speaker 0279.08s - 287.76s

And did you just say that you feel like hunters that say they're a trophy hunter and they're not successful that's like kind of an excuse for them?

Speaker 3288.22s - 304.24s

Oh yeah, I know guys, a lot of guys that use that, you know, they didn't find anything big enough because they're trophy hunters when in reality they just don't find animals but usethe trophy, and I hate the word trophy hunting. Looking for an older class

Speaker 1304.24s - 310.28s

animal, right? Looking for a mature animal will use the trophy hunting thing of like, yeah, I just never

Speaker 0310.28s - 333.32s

found anything big enough. Well, that's kind of funny because my perspective on that, I would say that a lot of guys say they're not a trophy hunter, so they set them, don't set themselves up for failure and they can settle for other animals and feel good about it and kind of virtue signal that they're a meat hunter. And so, you know, having us having two different perspectives on that approach is kind of interesting too.

Speaker 3333.76s - 411.06s

Well, and I'd say both are 100% correct. And I say this way it's a good perspective because I am not, I'll shoot big shit occasionally. And I say that. that Like I have shot some pretty big animals But I am I'm not great at At holding out right I'm just I suck at itI always have I mean Mike's giving me shit I everybody's giving me shit about it And I mean it doesn't bug me And I tried to get better at it Later But I think that people need to realizeWhat you're putting If If you're going to pick up a recurve, don't expect to all of a sudden shoot bigger animals than you did with a bow, right? And if you're going to be a bow hunter, you may not shoot as big as stuff as you could probably with a rifle, depending. Bow hunting's good, seasons are longer, whatever, but really you just need to know how to find big animals and hold out. I mean, there's a reason why guys like Mike or, I don't know, Ryan Lampers, or I mean, I can list guys off that are consistently shooting Tony Trich PERSON, big animals.They know how to hunt. They know where they're at. They can hold out. You know, there's a lot of things going into play where me, I know how to do all those things, except I suck at holding out. And I would say, you've given me shit about that since the time before time. And you've always given me shit about that, which doesn't bug me.

Speaker 0411.94s - 425.7s

No, but the reason why I give you shit about it is because I know you can take it. And we have this trust of, you know, you're from the military. I'm from the fire service. There's two groups right there that are world classic giving other people shit.

Speaker 3426.08s - 427.68s

Oh yeah, when I joined, I got called

Speaker 0427.68s - 452s

every way possible. Yeah, yeah. I'd say it's just you know, we bust each other's balls in the fire service you guys did in the military and it's just a the only reason I do it is because I know you cantake it and it's all in fun too. So I do know you're just chasing that dopamine hit on a more frequent base I do know, you're, you're just chasing that dopamine hit on a more frequent base. It just means you're a much more in-depth addict than I am.

Speaker 3452.36s - 526.32s

I mean, it's different addiction. It's different, man. I would disagree with you on that because what turns your crank is just different than mine. I mean, you're shooting a, you know, whatever, let's just say a, a five or six year old three by three while it's older. It's not turning your crank compared to a 220 inch six or seven year older or whatever where for me, I'm like, it's a victory. If I can hold out for an older deer that sucks it like has a shit score,that's a miracle. And I holding out if that's what i end up taking i'm like super excited about that and again i've shot some big stuff but when people are listening to this i think what's most important is like hey if if you know whatever you're i just don't make excuses for what you're doing like i and when i what mike PERSON said is true i just like killing shit. I like being out there.I like eating the meat. I like all of it. And I don't, like Mike said giving me shit. I mean, I don't, I also don't give Mike shit calling him like some holier than now fuckheadthat thinks he's better than everyone, which a lot of people on that virtual signning side, 100% do, I would say.

Speaker 0527.44s - 660.44s

Yeah, you know, I've had people, you know, throw some shade at me because I'm not an archery hunter. And I would say, you know, I understand archery hunting and the challenges involved. My challenge is hunting for an exceptional animal. And I think, you know, both pursuits are one and of the same. You're choosing to do something that's highlychallenging. And whether it's the skill set of getting in close with a recurve or a longbow or hunting an open over-the-counter unit for a mature bull elk andbeing willing to go home empty-handed. These are both, you're stepping up your game for both of these types of pursuits. And neither one of them is, you know, neither one of them is something that anybody should criticize. So, you know, I was talking to my wife this morning. I said, I need to probably need to refine my choosiness down a little bit on elk because, you know, I haven'tbeen killing as many elk and we need meat in the freezer too. And so, you know, that's one of the, I guess one of the drawbacks of being choosy and not having great tags that, you know, if you're choosing to do this and go home empty-handed, you're not going to be eating as much meat. So like a couple years ago, I went down to Texas GPE, and I think I brought home 10 Texas GPE white tails. Granted, that's 10 Texas GPE white-tail doze and small bucksis the equivalent of probably one and a half elk. And so, you know, I got my meat that way. But I eat wild game, if not every day, you know, probably 85, 90% of the days, whether it's breakfast sausage or burger or something else. It's like, that's part of my staple. So I don't like not going without.And so thinking about moving forward and, you know, in the era we are here in modern hunting, our hunting units are getting hammered. It's getting harder and harder to fill your tag, and there's more people doing it. So, you know, it kind of goes against what I've been doing as far as being a very selective hunter and holding out for exceptional animals. So I kind of have to adjust my mindset moving forward with this, too.

Speaker 3661.06s - 675.78s

Yeah, I would say, though, that someone like myself, if I picked up a rifle, and I'm not saying, I don't know that I've ever given you shit for not bow hunting. I don't think I have. Because I, it would be. No, because I've talked about doing it.

Speaker 0676.44s - 678.42s

Yeah, well, and that, I mean, that's part of it.

Speaker 3678.44s - 683.98s

But I would, I would argue on my end that I don't know that things would get any better if I had

Speaker 0683.98s - 689.96s

a gun on my hand in my hand. They would probably just go faster. If you're not good at holding out, I don't give a

Speaker 3689.96s - 735.16s

shit what weapon you have in your, in my opinion, what weapon you have in your hand, you might shoot a little bit bigger stuff, but more than most likely, you just won't be in the field maybe as long. And this isn't throughout, right? This is, that's a very broad statement, but just because you hand me a rifle doesn't make it better, easier for me to hold out. I just now will probably finish my hunt maybe a little bit easier. Now, I might shoot something a little bit bigger, but I would say, for the most part, if you're a killer, whatever weapon you grab, now Mike mightnot shoot quite as big a deer as he did with a rifle, but he might, but I guarantee he's still going after the same mentality holds strong throughout whatever weapon you grab. I guess is what I'm trying to say. And that goes on both sides of

Speaker 0735.16s - 791.78s

the same. I'm still not going to shoot, I'm still not going to shoot immature deer even if I was bow hunting. Yeah. It's just not going to happen. And, uh, you know, I just because I know it wouldn't satisfy me and why, why would I do that? Why would I kill an animal just to scratch the itch that way? It's just ultimately I'd be looking at that thing, whether it's in the garage or up on the wall. I'm like, I wish I wouldn't have done that. And there's, there's nothing worse than having a regret after taking an animal's life that youdidn't want to really kill. And so, you know, I understand that mentality, and I'm willing to work with it. It's really not that big a deal for me to, you know, granted, I'm, like, you get a really special tag, like a sheep or goat or moose or anything. And you don't want to go home without filling that tag.So I get that. But I also don't understand why anybody want to shoot, like, a four-year-old big horn just because you have a sheep tag. That's just, that would be a highly unsatisfying situation for me.

Speaker 3792.28s - 795.16s

I agree on that one, although I will shoot these shit.

Speaker 0795.66s - 893.98s

Although I say that, I quit in Colorado GPE. I'm sure I really, because the meal deer numbers are not good. But, I mean, it would be hard for me personally to give somebody shit coming out of state or just new into hunting for shooting a three and a half year old mule deer, but you wouldn't, you won't look twice in a three and a half year old mule deer. No, no. And, and I just don't think, you know, from a conservation standpoint, I don't thinkpeople should be shooting young rams. It's just, I understand that it's very, very difficult, even if you're bow hunting to close that loop. But, you know, it's like, we only allow so many tags for big horn sheep,and it's based on surplus animals. So, you know, as sheep age, you know, the idea of Rams getting past the age of eight years old, it's, I don't know what the exact number is, and I've talked about this before, but, you know, the idea of ram's getting past the age of eight years old, it's, I don't know what the exact number is, and I've talked about this before,but, you know, there's a natural attrition with age classes. The older ram gets, unless there are making them, making up that age class within the herd. So you get beyond the age of 10, and thosebig horns beyond the age of 10 are pretty rare. There's very few of them left from when that lamb crop that was born 10 years before that. So if you are shooting a 4-year-old ram and there's a couple of 10-year-olds on the landscape, you know, one or two of those might be dying and you've killed a 4-year-old and it really takes more out of the population in the end. So that's just my mindset.I'm very conservative when it comes to sheep and I firmly believe in age class on hunting sheep.

Speaker 3894.26s - 908.14s

Yeah, no, I'm definitely agreeing with you on sheep specifically, especially sheep. Goats are, I say goats are different. People might say why. Well, in my mind, they're different. They're different one is the motherfuckers are like next to cockroaches will live.

Speaker 0908.52s - 909.96s

Well, they're prolific as hell.

Speaker 3910.32s - 922.26s

And sheep are not, sheep get the sniffles. They fucking die. Sheep are very hard to keep alive. They're not a durable animal. Where a goat, a goat will live for freaking ever. It's hard to kill a goat.Yeah.

Speaker 0922.74s - 931.74s

No doubt. Yeah. You know, it's, I don't know who coined the phrase, but remember hearing Adam Ronson say it one time sheep are born looking for a way to die.

Speaker 3932.78s - 984.7s

That's fucking, that is truer than any, and that's not just big horns. That's all sheep. Yeah. And so, I mean, talk about, like, I'm going to add to what you were saying on the age category. Let's take a four-year-old out of the equation. Let's say it's a seven-year-old. So, hypothetically, or let's say, I mean, this happens all the time. It's happened to me guiding.You've got a, I don't know, 12-and-a-half-year-old ram. He's broomed heavy, 36 on one side, 33 on the other. Old as shit, broomed way back. You know, big Roman NORP nose, fat as shit, swayed back, gonded up hips. But there's a seven and a half year old that's pushing 41. You shoot that seven and a half year old, almost fucking guaranteed you killed two Rams ORG.And maybe the whole fucking group, depending upon where they live, because the lead ram will probably die.

Speaker 0986.66s - 991.94s

And the only hope that they had to live was maybe that seven and a half year old right because he's he's the upper

Speaker 3991.94s - 998.24s

comer he's next you kill any any fucking hope of both of those rams you you you killed two rams

Speaker 0998.24s - 1065.44s

and you've definitely jeopardized that band or that group yeah those those exceptional uh like six seven eight year olds like you're talking about that are actually, you know, say it's a dollar or stone sheep and it's a, you know, it's a seven-year-old that fits the criteria up in B.C. And those are the ones that are really difficult for people to pass up. Yeah, I get it, man.It's like, you know, sheep hunting is a very limited opportunity, whether it's financial or just acquiring the tag to the draw process. It's just a, and so people do not want to go home without one. I get that.So, you know, it's like, yeah, it's a really tough one for me too. You know, I've got my own value set when it comes to sheep hunting. I firmly believe in what I do for myself and for the people I hunt with. But, you know, I get that there's also not everybody's going to do that too. So I just think it's something worthy of keeping in mind for people. And it's a good goal to strive for too. It's like you really do want to kill the oldest ram and the herd forgood reason. It makes sense from a conservation standpoint. kill the oldest ram and the herd for for good reason.

Speaker 31065.6s - 1156.64s

It makes sense from a conservation standpoint. So here's where I would say that you and I probably separate a little bit. And when I say we might not. I mean when I say that not separate in what we do but but our views, meaning Mike's never going to want to shoot really anything young is when the numbers are there like when you look at um you know if you have an extremely high population of elk that's not that big of a deal when the numbers are there it's not that big of a deal to shoot a two or a three year old you may not i mean mike PERSON's never going to do itmany people are going to give you shit about it but when there's a high high density of elk it's not as big of a deal as when there's a lower density. Or like with mule deer compared to whitetail, minus people getting pissed off on the trophy side of things shooting larger white tail, you go to states with an extremely high population. You know, it's not that it doesn't affect things as much as a lower population does.And so when people, you know, you look at going on coal hunts and shooting a bunch of does, you know, well, yeah, in some areas, that's the worst thing in the world. You really don't want to shoot a mule deer dough in the western United States GPE. You just don't do it. Fuck, I go to Texas and Oklahoma. I'll shoot 50. I mean, I'll have deprivation tag. It's not the same. And so that's what people really need to understand too. It's like, hey, if you're managing your land and you have a lot, you know, that's one thing.But like literally, you in my opinion, really don't want to shoot a doe mule deer in the western

Speaker 01156.64s - 1256.88s

United States GPE. I would agree with you on that. For by and large, I think that's a good mentality to have. I mean, these, these tags are still offered out there, but like, you know, say, let's go with Middle Park LOC around Kremlin FAC. I don't think we have any business and all issuing Do Tags up there right now. That area is crushed. Middle Park and all the, all the units in that DAU, you know, like 1828, 377, 371, that area's been hammered by chronic waste and disease and tag allocations.And honestly, it's, you know, we have, there's still do tags up there, but we really have no business hunting up there, in my opinion, for even buck tags. I don't even think we should be issuing buck tags anymore up there. So, you know, it's all situational. Whereas I'll go down to South Texas on my buddy Ryan PERSON's ranch, and I'll stack up three- and four-year-old coal bucks and does and have no issue at all. It's because it's managed that way.It's managed for quality, and they've got a carrying capacity. They've got a biologist that works on the ranch. Everybody's fully aware of what the intent and what the management plan is. And that's how it goes. They take over, it's over 350 coal deer a year off this place that has 22,000 acres. And you would think, man, they're killing 350 deer off 22,000 acres.You'd think they'd wipe them out a few years, but they're freaking everywhere. Yeah, it's just good management. It's certainly situational for sure. And you take 22,000 acres in Middle Park LOC, man, I don't think there's going to be 350 deer on that in the winter.

Speaker 31258.28s - 1269.14s

No, that's a very, very good point. That's where I've, and Chris PERSON Roe and I had a very long, you know with Chris, fuck he talks about, a long drawn out conversation about this where he was talking.

Speaker 01269.14s - 1275.16s

With Chris PERSON? That's crazy. I know. And I mean, the thing that I was, because he was talking about

Speaker 21275.16s - 1280.72s

the let him grow mentality, that big push on the white deal world back in the day, that we

Speaker 01280.72s - 1291.1s

need to start doing that as elk hunters. And what I had told him is I think that's too big of an ask for the price of tag allocations,

Speaker 31291.22s - 1308.08s

on and on and on, for asking a human to do that. It's got to be done at the state level with tag allocations. We can't expect someone to leave his wife and his family, pay 750 or whatever plus for a tag, and not shoot a raghorn.

Speaker 01309s - 1309.6s

I can't.

Speaker 31310.6s - 1310.92s

Go ahead.

Speaker 01311.28s - 1316.04s

Yeah, I'd say the whole premise of wildlife management is that we have an inability to manage

Speaker 31316.04s - 1316.56s

ourselves.

Speaker 01317.24s - 1323.36s

And so a third party, the state agency, is in place in order to keep people from overhunting,

Speaker 31323.36s - 1325.9s

over harvesting, and doing that thing.

Speaker 01325.9s - 1330.56s

So, you know, granted, they don't always do things that we would collectively agree with,

Speaker 31330.72s - 1333.74s

but that's exactly why those guys have their jobs,

Speaker 01333.78s - 1349.96s

and that's why they're doing what they're doing, because humans in general have an inability to manage themselves in these type of situation. So it requires a third-party intervention. So it's pretty simple in my mind on why this is the way it is.

Speaker 31350.2s - 1356.56s

And I mean, I can't blame a guy for shooting a raghorn that came out from back east and put the money in and I can't.

Speaker 01356.98s - 1367.96s

Now, when I say that, like elk numbers at one time and they're down in a lot of areas. And again, I mean, and I've, my views, as time goes on, people are like,

Speaker 31368s - 1379.52s

oh, your views sure have changed. I'm like, the fucking climate has changed too, right? Like, mule deer in 2006 were a different world in Colorado compared to today. I mean.

Speaker 01379.86s - 1482.44s

Absolutely. The winner of 0708 changed the face of Colorado GPE mule deer hunting. It's never changed. And we've also, you know, from the state management standpoint, they felt like they left too many bucks on the landscape that died in that winter. And so what was a fairly conservative approach to tag allocationswhere we basically had less than half of the buck tags in, let's say, the late 90s. They went back up after the 0708 PRODUCT winner because they felt like there was a statement made that we can't stockpile bucks. And I understand that, you know, there's that there's an opportunity-based mentality that some people have. And obviously from the state agency, it's a nice self-fulfilling situation to say, hey, we need to kill more mule deer because, you know,they're going to make money off it too. And so these tags fund the state agency, and then these guys know that they need a certain amount of money coming in to keep the train rolling. But, you know, I would say I'm somewhere in between on that. I don't, I don't think that we just need to have a total trophy hunter's management mentality in the state. But I feellike the pendulum, both times has swung too far, you know, whether it was the conservative tag allocations back in the early 2000s or the extremely liberal opportunity-based allocations that are going on right now, and our deer herd has been absolutely crushed in this state. And, you know, you can take my word for it. You go to talk to any taxidermist in Colorado GPE, ask them what they think.And those are the guys that, you know, we're seeing in mounting deer, and it's just not happening anymore.

Speaker 21482.44s - 1489.16s

So it's really a paradoxical situation with this whole, you know,

Speaker 01489.2s - 1492.42s

opportunity versus quality management philosophy.

Speaker 31493.22s - 1511s

Well, and I mean, as I've, when I talked about the climate changing, like me, I'm just, you know, guys have given me shit about not hunting public land over-the-counter tags anymore.And I'm like, look, the last thing over-the-counter public land elk need is a fucking guy like me going in there.

Speaker 01511.16s - 1550.36s

I promise. And when I say that, I will kill one. And I know I cannot stop if a three-year-old walks in front of me. And I say that, oh, sure you can. No, I promise you seven fucking days in, backpack, I'm killing an elk. Like, it is smarter for me to let other people continue that on, and I'll hunt when I can. I've had my day. I've got to do lots of cool stuff.And it just, and I don't know what your views are on that. But like, for me, if I can get a landowner tag occasionally, maybe not hunt elk every year, hunt something else. I mean, again, OTC Colorado GPE archery is hammered.

Speaker 31550.86s - 1555.68s

At such a level, it will get taken away in Colorado GPE, I would say, very quickly.

Speaker 01556.1s - 1647.26s

And once things are taken away, they don't come back. Like, very rarely. Like, it's going to be altered for the rest of time. Yeah, one of the things that, you know, people ask me about, you know, why I haven't gotten into archery hunting. One is because I've really gotten into sheep hunting,whether it's my own thing or going along with other people and doing some guiding and that kind of thing. But what I do know is I have yet to see a single person kill a bull elk out and over-the-counter archery seasons in Colorado GPE since I've been doing this for the last decade. And I've literally seen hundreds of archery hunters in the field, and I've yet to see a single one of them successful. And that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I know there's guys thatare killing bulls with archery gear, but I think we both know it's like the low level of success for that kind of thing is just, it's almost stunning if you put the numbers to it, like how few guys are actually completing that circle? And so you have to question what, if this is the case, the quality of the experience is so low. I mean, you're basically just backpacking with a boat and hoping to run into something. And, you know, it's like with a bow and hoping to run into something. And, you know, it's like, I know there's guys listening right now.They're like, oh, you fucking dumbass. I kill a bull every year with my, my bow. Well, I'm not saying there's not people that do it. I'm saying I've never seen a guy kill a bull with a bow. And all the time I've spent sheep hunting in the mountains in September. I'll just tell you that.Not a single one.

Speaker 31647.38s - 1660.04s

And I just want to preface what Mike is saying. Mike knows I have killed elk on OTC tags, but he has never run into me with an elk in my hand from an OTC. He's just heard stories, right? Seen pictures.

Speaker 01660.04s - 1667.94s

Oh, I've seen pictures. I know you do it. That has nothing to do with it. It's what I'm talking about the experience people are buying into right now.

Speaker 31667.94s - 1724.56s

I'm agreeing with you because I personally, like, I'm hunting a couple, or the last three years I've gotten a landowner tag in a couple years before that had either drew a tag or whatever where I've been pretty spoiled for the last few years. Now, in the one unit, I did not, Mike, you would have been proud. I did not shoot a raghorn. I went home with nothing, but that unit has a holds a place in my heart, and it's kind of going to shit. And I just, I had plenty of, I had shot a ton of other shit, and I knew I was goingto Texas GPE. And as much as I liked to eat elk, I didn't need to kill. I shot a fucking bison that year. I didn't need to shoot an elk, so I didn't. Now, when I'm saying this, I guess, is that unit specifically, when you talk about things altering, at one time was amazing. And it's like, I just stopped putting in for that unit.Now, people may, oh, that's stupid.

Speaker 21724.68s - 1727.26s

I mean, I'm going to get a place in life.

Speaker 31727.26s - 1768.08s

And when I say that, I'm not, that's not a brag. I get to hunt in Oklahoma, Texas GPE. I get to shoot a bison every year. I'm in BC, a shitload. Right. I got a lot going on to where that unit does not need a dude that knows it extremely wellwith a fucking little hairy trigger finger may not hold back. That unit needs to be left alone by me. And that's just as I age have tried to get better about that. Take OTC. I would say success rate in OTC truly, not what the bullshit people try to make from themselves feel good and say they're successful even when they're not.I would say it's close to 5 to 7% statewide archery.

Speaker 01768.88s - 1771.08s

For bulls or just elk in general?

Speaker 31771.38s - 1772.02s

Just elk.

Speaker 01772.92s - 1776.44s

Yeah, I would say, you know, for archery, it might even be a tad lower.

Speaker 31776.52s - 1779.7s

I have no idea, but I know it's a very, very, it's single digits for sure.

Speaker 01780.34s - 1791.68s

And so. And for bowls, it might be, when you talk about all the counter archery on public land hunting bulls, you know, that might be down in the, you know, three, four percent.

Speaker 31792.34s - 1794.52s

And this is where I say I shouldn't be in there.

Speaker 01794.58s - 1795.86s

I promise you I'm going to kill one.

Speaker 31796.6s - 1797.58s

That's not a good thing.

Speaker 01798.08s - 1819.18s

And people are like, what do you mean? It's like, it may not or it probably will not be a bull of age. And when I say of age, four and a half plus, certainly five plus, because they're very hard to kill. Now, I might get lucky, and people might do it every year. I'm just saying I'm going to get on an elk and I will probably kill a bull.It's probably going to be a three and a half year old.

Speaker 31819.78s - 1826.76s

And I'm saying my history in hunting OTC, that is just not good for the unit. I mean, it's not.

Speaker 01828.72s - 1849.9s

Yeah, and when you, so when the takeaways from this is what I see is we're, we are experiencing crowding on public lands like we've never seen before. And I think that the worry, concern, alarm, whatever you want to say about dwindling hunter numbers, pretty hard to convince me that that's a big problem right now.

Speaker 31850.04s - 1850.68s

Not out west.

Speaker 01850.78s - 1910.5s

There's no fucking way. No, and I know it is, in generally speaking, it's a problem with our population of hunters relative to the overall population nationwide and how we're represented percentage-wise. But that really has nothing to do with, I mean, if you want more representation as hunters in the voting booth on a national basis,setting more people out onto public land and over-the-counter units isn't the way you address that. And so those two are, you know, they're completely unrelated in my mind. The experience that people are getting right now from this over-the-counter influx in archery season, I can't imagine most people aren't fairly dissatisfied with the experience overall.And, you know, because it's not like you're just going camping. You have an intention while you're out there. You're hoping to, you know, complete the's not like you're just going camping. You have an intention while you're out there. You're hoping to, you know, complete the circle, close the loop, whatever. Bring an Elcombe PRODUCT.

Speaker 21910.72s - 1913.24s

And it happens so infrequently.

Speaker 01914.4s - 1960.9s

It's got to be somewhat discouraging for people, too. And I admire guys that keep after it. You know, I've talked to guys via messenger and stuff on social media. And, you know, people have told me they've been, you know, trying for 10 years and they're just, you know, hope and it happens. And you have to ask yourself, if you're doing it that long and it's, you're stillunsuccessful, what, what is happening here? Is it just a situation where it's so difficult that it's almost impossible because of the amount of pressure or are you doing something wrong from a tactical standpoint? You know, those are things that people need to look at if they're, you know, wanting to increase their success. But doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different results is, you know, like the old adage says, that's just that's the example of insanity.

Speaker 31961.94s - 2012.52s

Well, and this is something that Chris PERSON and I talked about and, in, uh, I'm sure you'll agree with this is like, I, I had brought up that I thought one, each state needs to take much better care of Colorado GPE specifically of their residents. And I don't want to hear any shit about that because I am not a resident anymore. So I am screwing myself by saying this. I think that Colorado should do a 90-10 split. I thinkthey should take much better care of their residents personally, at least 85-15. And then I think that they should take over-the-counter hunting. And this isn't because I'm trying to be biased to outer staters. This is what's the best thing for the wildlife on the ground. And a better experience for the hunters. I think there should be no over the counter. And if there is over the counter with caps.

Speaker 02017.04s - 2021.82s

Just for the simple fact, my version of the good old days, and I haven't been in Colorado GPE as longer than you, my version of what good is is far different than somebody that's

Speaker 22021.82s - 2023.62s

been hunting OTC for the last decade.

Speaker 02024.32s - 2028.72s

My version of the good old days is I can kill a 160 mule deer,

Speaker 32029.28s - 2046.84s

a four-year-old on a second-choice tag with some effort into it with a bow and shoot a five-by-five or a six-by-six. Fairly easy. And I say that I'm going to be, I'm going to have the opportunity for both of those animals and more than one. That's fucking gone now.That is gone. Yeah.

Speaker 02046.96s - 2051.82s

And what I... It is. It's changed. Yeah. Change landscape in the application world.

Speaker 32052.22s - 2097.12s

And so what I just want people to realize is like, hey, would you rather have a really good hunt every two or three years? Or do you want to have a really shitty hunt every year for a decade or whatever and maybe get lucky once a decade? And for me, until you've experienced that, well whatever and maybe get lucky once a decade. And for me, until you've experienced that, well, let's say one stock a day, I'm talking archery, one stock a day on a mule deer is a solid hunt. That's a good hunt. Multiple call-ins in a week time period, you know, one, you know, for elk.Like those opportunities you will remember for a lifetime guaranteed and the pack out and everything else rather than bow hiking. Bow hiking fucking blows. And it's just my, and that's my mentality or my, that's what I feel. But I mean, what are your thoughts on that? I'm rambling.Sorry.

Speaker 02098.72s - 2105.8s

Um, you know, the, uh, I think, I think that kind of makes me feel like the COVID issue

Speaker 32105.8s - 2110.1s

and how we changed outdoor recreation in this country four years ago.

Speaker 02111.14s - 2113.74s

And I think that has an impact on this whole thing, too,

Speaker 32113.82s - 2116.82s

because what we, I think you would agree with me on that.

Speaker 02116.9s - 2179.98s

We've never seen the amount of high country recreation. It was increasing before this. But now it's on a level that, you know, they're talking about limiting many, many places across the state as far as access for people to go hiking on these trails and these destination lakes. And one thing that the correlation with that is, I would say, is if the trailhead you're going to has a lake, chances are there's people that you justpound that place in the summer and there's not going to be much wildlife around that basin. So that would be, that effectively eliminates a lot of country from places because if you've got lakes that people are going to as destination backpacking locations, they're going to be shitty hunting spots for the most part. It's not 100% rule, but by and large, it's a pretty good rule to go by.But it just shows you the impact that Recreaters have on wildlife in the high country and how that additionally impacts to archery hunters.

Speaker 32180.3s - 2184.2s

I can tell you for mule deer, it's fucked what you just said.

Speaker 02184.28s - 2184.74s

It's horrible.

Speaker 32187.86s - 2191.88s

I don't know. Do you remember I had that buck 31 I mean I know what so scored is because somebody shot it in a rifle season

Speaker 02191.88s - 2194.1s

31 and a half wide 203

Speaker 32194.1s - 2198.1s

Yeah bedded I mean wanted to die and there was chicks

Speaker 22198.1s - 2203.32s

And I was nine miles in seven miles in something like that Chicks PRODUCT doing yoga right above it blew it out

Speaker 32203.32s - 2205.52s

It's like fuck yeah Was there like there? Past me there was yeah seven miles in something like that. Chicks doing yoga right above it blew it out. It's like, fuck.

Speaker 02206.84s - 2207.76s

Was there a lake there?

Speaker 32208.88s - 2209.9s

Past me there was, yeah.

Speaker 02210.1s - 2210.14s

Yep.

Speaker 32210.32s - 2211.04s

Yeah.

Speaker 02215.74s - 2216.4s

So I mean, and when you talk about high country recreation, I just, I want to make sure,

Speaker 32221.6s - 2238.86s

like, that's obviously hikers and fishers, but fishermen, fisher women, you also get the occasional ding dong rolling bouldersers that's going peak to peak rolling boulders off into bedding areas of fucking mule deer and sheep. That's another one. I'm not saying, I mean, it's cool to throw a boulder off. I get it. But like literally when the guys are doing the peak to peak thingor like running from one summit to another

Speaker 02238.86s - 2241.56s

and they're flinging boulders off,

Speaker 32241.72s - 2256.42s

like it's amazing how those same people people will blast hunters and it's like hey you're literally throwing boulders through your bed like this is where those animals live and you're rolling fucking cars down like and that happens a lot that kind of shit happens all the time

Speaker 02256.42s - 2285.62s

yeah and i think the takeaway is uh for people doing their research on places to go high high country archery hunting in the alpine LOC, is think about that as your, that would be your number one impact for the quality of your hunt, would be how likely are you to run into a bunch of recreaters up in that spot? And, you know, it should be the differential diagnosis of that spot versus another spot as far as where you're going to go spend your time

Speaker 12285.62s - 2289.38s

and money pursuing, you know, high country mule deer.

Speaker 02289.94s - 2320.74s

So, you know, these are things that people need to think about in this day and age. You know, it's not just as simple anymore as just looking at on X or a map or whatever you're using and picking out a cool spot and like, well, that looks good. I think I'm going to go there. I look at it on Google Earth PRODUCT. Yep, looks perfect.There's a lake. We can camp by that. Got good water there and then we can go up into these side bases and that kind of thing. So, yeah, you can pretty much figure that if there's a lake in the area, you're going to have company. Yeah.

Speaker 32320.78s - 2326.22s

Oh, yeah. Or it's a through hike area, a Colorado GPE trail area.

Speaker 02326.76s - 2333.06s

Oh, if there's a 14er PRODUCT on the same ridge lines, the area you want to hunt, that's going to attract people too.

Speaker 32333.66s - 2335.04s

Yeah, oh yeah, for sure.

Speaker 02335.8s - 2338.78s

Today I wanted to talk about the Hoyt RX8 Ultra PRODUCT.

Speaker 32339.26s - 2344.34s

This bow is so badass, animals will flip over dead in front of you with no effort whatsoever.

Speaker 02344.34s - 2345.38s

You also could potentially pack on 20 to in front of you with no effort whatsoever. You also

Speaker 32345.38s - 2351.1s

could potentially pack on 20 to 30 pounds of muscle just from purchasing this bow. If you don't

Speaker 02351.1s - 2357.9s

believe me, look at Evan Williams. He works for Hoyt, and he used to be 5'4 and 135 pounds. Now,

Speaker 32358.34s - 2515.2s

three inches in height and at least 220 pounds of solid muscle. So check out the Hoyt RX8 Ultra at hoit.com ORG. Let's talk about the Sig Zulu 6 PRODUCT image stabilizing binoculars. These things really excel when you're road hunting on a road with big potholes and can't really lock into the animal. And above and beyond that, if you're in a tree stand, giant deer's coming in, you're shaking like a dog shit and peach pits. They will lock in on that animal, much better than standard binoculars.So check those out, the Sig Zulu 6 PRODUCT. I can't recommend them enough. I'm sure some of you have heard me talk about Thor, my rifle from Viking ORG armament. I cannot suggest this rifle enough. I have actually never cleaned it, and it very rarely misses. Now, I can't promise that with some clientsborrowing it. It doesn't have the mojo for everyone, but I would say it's got the 90% mojo. So hopefully if you come down hunting with me, you borrow the rifle, you might be in that 90%, but you could be in the 10th. So I suggest you actually get your own. So go to vikingarmament.com, get one ordered up. 300 PRC is on the way for me. Great guns, great people. As most of you know, I'm super close friends with the people over at Montana Knife Company ORG, especially Josh Smith, the owner of Montana Knife ORG. I was fortunate enough to partner up withthem on the Jackstone Knife. That knife is kind of a Canadian NORP belt knife with a few different modifications, but a great knife. The good thing about that knife is, if you don't ever kill anything, you will still look good with that on your belt. So that's an added bonus. So head over to Montana knife, check it out, the Jackstone PRODUCT, or one of their other knives that will certainly help you pick up chicks, possibly, and definitely help you gain a few pounds in the gym. Well, I mean, changing subjects on that, I mean, I think everybody figured out kind ofwhat we're, um, where we were at on that one, but changing over to, um, you, you had brought up like the outdoor industry thing. And the one of the things that I have always said was, uh, what are you really wanting when somebody says, I want to be in the outdoor industry? Because exactly, for, for me me I just wanted to be outdoors and the rest of this has obviously affected me mentally a little bit like where I'm trying to get away from social media and it it and I'm not social media has got me a lot likeI'm not complaining about it I'm just saying it does become kind of a demon I just wanted to be in the outdoors whether that was hunting working for the forest service, I just wanted to be in the outdoors, whether that was hunting, working for the forest service guiding, I just wanted to be outside all the time. That is not the same as wanting to work in the outdoor industry. So people, I think, get that confused,

Speaker 02515.32s - 2684.36s

but take it away. Oh, very much so. And I think, you know, understand this, you know, as a younger person, you know, I'm guys that are further along in life, I'm not going to, I'm not talking to them. I'm talking to the young guys right now that are trying to figure out what they want to do and make their way. And so, number one is you've got to make enough money to live off of. And so you have to think about, well, how can you do that in the outdoor industryand make enough money to live off and do the stuff that's going to make you happy too? Understand that there isn't a lot of extra money in the outdoor industry. Guys that are running the companies are doing okay, but generally if you're going to be working for somebody else, you're going to be probably doing the yeomen's work behind the scenes and, you know, there's not a whole lot of glamour there. I'm not trying to dissuade people from working for Kifaru ORG.What I'm saying is, you know, what are you hoping to get out of this? And do you want to be known? And I think that's something that people really need to be honest with themselves about. It's like, you know, what I'm talking about is, you know, there's a primitive tribal aspect of being validated and being accepted within your tribe and all that. And I think, you know, we've all gone through that point in our lives where, you know, we wanted to achieve things and have some notoriety for the accomplishments and whether it's hunting or writing or photography, all the above.And there's, you know, there's some people that want to throw shame on that idea of that. But it's really, I mean, we're talking about basic human nature. So let's just accept that for what it is. And people are wanting to be accepted by the tribe. So if your tribe is a hunting tribe, what are you hoping to get out of it? Do you want to be known?Do you want to make money? Do you want to have the freedom to hunt whenever you want? Well, you got to be really careful about which path you go down and what you want to do. I would say that guys that are guiding are going to be probably making a little bit more money than some of the guys are working for product companies. However, you're choosing a lifestyle that's going to preclude you from having,you know, a family for the most part. You know, there's guys that managed to strike that balance, but that's a tough one. If you're gone for three months in the fall, you know, from August through October, you go up north to guide in Alaska or BC or the Yukon LOC, you know, that's a really tough one on a family. And, you know, guys tend to have relationships that fall apart because they're gone so long. It's just the nature of the beast. If you're in the industry working for a product company, then, you know,you're probably not going to be making as much and you're not going to have as much time off. So, you know, these are all evaluations of the path you are trying to choose

Speaker 12684.36s - 2688.58s

as you want to make your way into the hunting world or outdoor, whatever it is.

Speaker 22688.58s - 2693.06s

But, you know, some people are trying to make money off social media

Speaker 12693.06s - 2695.34s

and YouTube ORG channels and that kind of thing.

Speaker 02695.6s - 2711.08s

And I don't know how many of them actually do very well with that. I'm sure there's some money to be made, but that's a tough one. So, you know, starting your own T-shirt company, does anybody think we really need another T-shirt and hat company out there at this point? I think we're full, thank you.

Speaker 32711.5s - 2712.4s

Yeah, there's a few.

Speaker 02712.88s - 2715.46s

Well, I don't, I do too many of these podcasts,

Speaker 32715.54s - 2721.52s

and I can't remember if I discussed what I'm about to throw at you on another podcast.

Speaker 02721.6s - 2723.2s

So if I did, I'm apologizing.

Speaker 32723.26s - 2728.2s

But if you were to rewind, because I have said this, and if I was to rewind,

Speaker 02728.32s - 2731.92s

somebody asked me the other day, what would you do different? And for the most part,

Speaker 32732.38s - 2737s

I really wouldn't do anything different. And I love my daughter. You have kids. You love your daughters.

Speaker 22737.64s - 2745.18s

But if I was giving advice to someone and they weren't dying to have kids, I would say the moment they graduated,

Speaker 32745.98s - 2751.04s

go, and they're into hunting, go be a packer to eventually become a guide,

Speaker 22751.7s - 2782.4s

go guide and even if you can't do it in the NWT LOC, but if you can guide as an American in the BC GPE, you can get somebody to help you at that, Alaska GPE. And, you know, you can go down West Texas LOC, you can guide for our dad, maybe find an outfit or in the Baha down of mexico through the winter just learn to hunt learn everything about the outdoors become a monsterdo that until you're you know 28 25 30 then start to have a real life or when you maybe you have

Speaker 32782.4s - 2802.18s

your own outfit maybe whatever but if you do it the it the other way around and you're addicted to the outdoors, it becomes difficult because age may have caught up with you by the time your kids are out of the house and you are financially able to live a crazy life. I didn't explain that that well. What are your thoughts on that,

Speaker 02802.18s - 2819.8s

though? No, no, I would agree with you 100%. And I think that's one of the best things a guy could do is go up north and work for a hunting outfitter in Alaska, specifically. If you're a U.S. GPE citizen, if you, you know, BC GPE, there's some real troubling aspects of for both the outfitters in B.C.

Speaker 22820.44s - 2824.88s

And also, uh, it's expensive as what it is. Yeah, it's just a pain in the ass. They got to pay a lot of

Speaker 02824.88s - 2826.62s

money to have you come up there and work for them.

Speaker 22826.62s - 2832.62s

But go up to Alaska GPE, and one of the greatest things about Alaska is it's rough country with shitty weather,

Speaker 02832.86s - 2941.64s

and it'll make you tough and establish a seriously strong sense of resiliency in you. And the young dudes that have gone up to Alaska GPE and guided up there, I mean, they come back down here in Colorado GPE and there's this freaking child's play compared to packing around the mount, backpacking for doll sheep, you know, carrying moose quarters out and in wet weather, sleeping in wet tents and all the other shit. It's, you know, that just makes you tough and hard. It's a great,great experience. Do it while you're young and go have that experience. And, you know, it's not something you want to do forever either. Most guys, you know, will choose a different path eventually because it becomes a bit of a burnout. You've seen it, done it after, you know, six, eight, ten years. And it's kind of some of the luster's worn offand you get tired of putting on wet socks and all the above. But, you know, for the experience, there's nothing that beats working up in the North, Wester's worn off and you get tired of putting on wet socks and all the above. But, you know, for the experience, there's nothing that beats working up in the North country. It's just great stuff. It's make you tough, no question. And I'll say this right now, and I've got a bias towards it.Start applying for fire departments and try to get on into fire service. There is not really a job out there that will give you better access to the outdoors. And specifically, one, you're making enough money. You make a pretty decent living. And also, you got good benefits. You can have family time.And also, more than anything, it gives you the time off. And I say this because I really look back at my success as a hunter and outdoorsman and everything else. And a lot of it I could directly attribute to how much time I had with the fire service and my time off. And had made enough money where the bills weren't, you know, the wolf wasn't at the door. So great benefits, all the above.

Speaker 32942.6s - 2978.04s

Well, and anybody listening that's been listening to me already knows I agree, because I've told everyone the fireman's number one. Probably in this day and age, as much as I appreciate police and what they do, it sucks balls to be a cop right now across in the, you know, in this day and age. But, you know, the, and again, I don't mean any, I have no issue with cops. It's, I fucking hate the job that you have and the shit you have to deal with right now.But the time off's a big one. You get to work out, right? You guys generally have a gym in the firehouse or get free memberships or some shit, right? I mean, you have treadmills or something. You can work out there, right?

Speaker 02978.46s - 2988.04s

Yeah, just about every firehouse that I've ever seen as a gym. You know, there's free weights, few machines, some cardio machines, and, you know, it's all there. Yeah.

Speaker 32988.08s - 3002.56s

So, I mean, and that's the thing where it's like, okay, do you want to work in the outdoor industry or do you want to hunt a lot? Because working in the outdoor industry, I can tell you now you come work for me, what do you think I hired you for? It's certainly not to take fucking September off. Like, I heard your work.

Speaker 03003.34s - 3117.92s

I got hired in the fire department in 1992. I spent 30 years of my career doing it. When I got hired, it was a very, very difficult job to get. It was, you know, I got lucky that, you know, we always used to joke. You know, you got the golden horseshoe and we're the lucky ones that made it through the test, just said the right answer to the right question.And there is an element of luck when you get hired on the fire department back in the day because there were so many people. It's just like, well, I happen to guess right on two more questions than that guy did in the written test. And maybe I said something in the oral interview that was just, you know, struck a nerve with the interviewer and maybe somebody else said something, just the tone of their voice, the way they sat in the chair.You know, any of these could be, you know, just be the make or break for a guy getting hired. But what I do know right now is fire departments across the West LOC, across the United States are having trouble hiring and it has everything to do with the generation of young people out there that just just don't think that that's what they want to do. They don't want to be tied down to a job. They don't want to be, have, I guess, that commitment.And what I did notice towards the end of my career, I'd never seen so many people come and go in the fire service. And say, you know, it's definitely got its detractors. I mean, you have to deal with a lot of people's bad days and tragedies and things like that. But I think the benefits far outweigh. There's a lot of things that can be gained from that.So, you know, there's, in my mind, there's far better, there's probably few career paths that are better than becoming a firefighter if you want to become an avid outdoorsman and hunter. So I'll just, you know, I can't think of any other way to try to endorse it, but there's a lot of opportunity

Speaker 33117.92s - 3174.76s

out there for people. The only thing I would add to this before we move on to Mike's gore hunt, well, sheep hunting the gore, but be careful what you wish for. And I am trying personally not to sound ungrateful or like a whiny little bitch because I have a good life and I have what most people dream about. But there are some negative sides, some major negative sides at time to trying to get to a position and the, you know, ownership. I have an insane payroll. I've got like probably 100 employees with thedifferent companies. And I am not as excited about hunting as I once was. And in my opinion, one, some of the things Mike and I already talked about as far as different hunts. But other is, I made a living out of what I love to do. And I know there's like an adage of do what you, you know, make sure your job is what you love to do and you'll never work a day in your life.

Speaker 03175.5s - 3183s

Well, let me ask you this, Aaron. How many years did you spend living in a condo because you couldn't afford to buy a house because you're pursuing this currapet?

Speaker 33183.74s - 3186.34s

2017 was when I stopped living in a one-bedroom apartment.

Speaker 03186.94s - 3193.22s

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to say you suffered at all, but you basically...

Speaker 33193.22s - 3193.92s

Oh, it sucked in times.

Speaker 03193.92s - 3211.84s

You did the reps and sets, and it was a grind for many, many years to get to the point. You saw, you know, maybe you saw something in the end that was worth sticking with it, but, you know, it's not like you just walked into the offense and somebody made you the head honcho of Kaffaru ORG. You know, that didn't happen.

Speaker 33212.02s - 3214.64s

There was a lot of poverty times. There was a lot of poverty times.

Speaker 03214.64s - 3216.86s

There was a lot of slogging through the mud to get there.

Speaker 33217.7s - 3220.62s

Yeah, and I'm one in a billion. I mean, a million.

Speaker 23220.76s - 3231.42s

And I'm not saying, I don't, I'm not bragging. I mean, it just doesn't happen. You have a few people like me. And I'm not saying, I don't, I'm not bragging. I mean, it just doesn't happen. You have a few people like me. And I'm going to say a few people like me. You can't count Derek Wolf PERSON. He played in the NFL ORG, right?

Speaker 03231.46s - 3246.08s

He's making a living in the outdoors, but he doesn't need to make any money. Steve Ronella's one, Remy Warren, Donnie Vincent PERSON. I mean, and some of those guys, obviously, you also have to promote shit. There is still a job there and so

Speaker 33246.08s - 3251.44s

well Steve PERSON you know Steve started out writing and he was trying to you know he's sending

Speaker 03251.44s - 3286.4s

articles to magazines and getting rejected and and that's how he got his start in the industry and he had a good idea for a tv show and and pitched it to the right guy and then started that whole thing and so nobody uh nobody handed Steve Ronella PERSON anything. He went out and earned it. You know, nobody handed Derek Wolf PERSON anything, but, you know, his prominencethat is an NFL ORG player and a Super Bowl EVENT winning defensive end. I mean, that gave him a jumpstart into the outdoor world just because of his notoriety that he already had, which, so he worked. It just wasn't within the industry.

Speaker 33286.76s - 3289.9s

And the one thing everyone has in common, you just said it,

Speaker 03289.96s - 3291.78s

they worked their fucking ass off.

Speaker 33292.38s - 3294.92s

Hardly anybody in the position of what we're talking about

Speaker 03294.92s - 3297.18s

was handed anything.

Speaker 33297.56s - 3334.4s

And, you know, and I'm only bringing this up as if, for example, you worked a good enough job and you were careful with your money, and I talked to this about Christy Titus, you're not drinking energy drinks every day, you're prepping your food, moderate vehicle, not living by on your means, doing some side jobs. You can go on some pretty amazing hunts with a little resourcefulness, some woodsmanship. I mean, Mike, you're proof of it.Mike, you're not a fucking millionaire. You had a good living. How many deer have you shot over 200 inches? Over 200?

Speaker 03334.72s - 3334.96s

Yeah.

Speaker 33335.88s - 3340.02s

Two. And how many of you shot over 180? Over 180?

Speaker 03340.86s - 3341.34s

Roughly.

Speaker 33341.58s - 3348.42s

Probably, I don't know, at least 15, probably. Okay. I thought you shot three over 200 but I

Speaker 03348.42s - 3356.7s

give it's probably because of how I score and how you score in Snyder PERSON's book they're over too they're not in Mike's book they're under two making fun of myself of that

Speaker 33356.7s - 3362.36s

you have you ever paid 12 to 15,000 dollars for a deer tag

Speaker 03362.36s - 3370s

no I've never paid to hunt private land. I mean, everything I've done is do it yourself on public land with draw tags.

Speaker 33370.96s - 3381.7s

And you went through, I mean, and I don't, I've been divorced, Mike went through a fucking ugly divorce and has kids and was still able to make this happen.

Speaker 03381.7s - 3484.14s

And what I'm getting at is if you're smart with your money, more than most likely if you get a good job, you're going to be able to make this happen. And what I'm getting at is if you're smart with your money, more than most likely if you get a good job, you're going to be able to hunt far more working a normal job than you would working in the outdoor industry. And marry a good partner, whether it's a man or a young man or a young woman listening to this.You know, that is everything. You and I can both vouch for that. But I'll just say this, 16 years ago, I was flat, freaking broken and in debt and divorced 16 years ago. So in my early 40s at that point, you know, I'm freaking, I'm hurting. It was in a bad place.And, you know, I reconnected. I knew my wife when we were both young. And she was the daughter of a guy I worked for and one of my best buddy's sister. And so we had some history there. I knew her. But, you know, getting together with my wife and what a quality woman she is, and, you know, that made a huge difference in my life.And moving forward, you know, I had a great partner to work with. And, you know, I went from being flat broke 16 years ago and in serious financial trouble to being retired and debt-free at this point in my life. So, you know, it really has a lot to do with life decisions and the people you choose to go down that path with. So, you know, those are important decisions too to make because, you know, none of it really, none of this hunting ship matters when you're a rock bottom going through a divorceand your home broken and your kids are, you know, having troubles and all the above. I mean, none of the shit matters. You think it does? I couldn't give a fuck about hunting for about a year when I was going through the worst part of it.

Speaker 33484.76s - 3489.26s

Well, I mean, there's something to be, I mean, and I don't want to get too kumbaya on this,

Speaker 03489.26s - 3494.22s

but obviously like me knowing some of Mike's history and him knowing some of mine,

Speaker 33494.3s - 3508.92s

and both of us have been on rock bottom. Again, the choices you may, and you can't always knock it out of the park with the choices you make with a partner, but I can tell you, a partner will make and break you in every way, like Mike just said.

Speaker 03509.12s - 3608.06s

Absolutely. Every way. Yeah. It's because, you know, I've said this to guy, you know, working in the fire department, you know, you're at a station with crew and you become a family. And it's actually talking to my wife about this yesterday.It's like, you know, I had all these very close, familial relationships with guys that I worked with. And, you know, you have a lot of time to talk and that kind of thing. And so, you know, we knew each other's problems. We watched to help each other through the bad times, divorces, and that kind of thing. But what I started telling these young guys is, and it's from my own personal experience, it's like red flags never go away, they only get worse.So if you've got some red flags that you're seeing in your potential partner in life, just know that, you know, time's not going to heal those. Those red flags will do nothing but get worse with time. And so, you know, it's just some people just aren't the right one for you. And if you're seeing those red flags and having those doubts walk away, and as hard as it is to do, I couldn't do it when I was young.I didn't walk away, and I should have. And for both of our sake. So, you know, it just didn't happen. But, you know, I look at other young guys, and they've got, you know, spectacular relationships with these women that they've managed to find in their world. So, you know, it's a, it takes some discipline and it's really a hard thing for a youngperson to do is when you're in love with somebody, but you know that they're screwed up. It might affect your ability to go hunting the rest of your life. So put it that way.

Speaker 33608.3s - 3620.52s

Yeah, I mean, it can affect, and I don't want to dive into this too much more, but literally it's going to, a good partner is going to help you financially. Even if they don't make money, they're going to help you take care of your money. Sure.

Speaker 03620.7s - 3632.32s

They're going to help you mentally because you're going to feel secure when you leave that they'll be there and they'll be your support group when you come back. When I say leave, leave on a hunt, they're going to help you mentally because you're going to feel secure when you leave that they'll be there and they'll be your support group when you come back when i say leave leave on a hunt they're going to be supportive if you're supportive for them you can't be a fucking asshole

Speaker 33632.32s - 3689.38s

and expect this if you're supportive to them they will help you with your career and everything that you want to do because you're doing the same for them but what mike PERSON had said is if you have any reservations in the beginning, if there's any red flags, and I'm enunciating this fucking clearly, Mike was nice about it. They don't get better. No, they get at a level, probably a multiplier of 10 worse. Like, if she doesn't like you chewing, that is not fucking getting better. So then you're lying about chewing and you're hidingthat or if she thinks she doesn't want you to have a beer or she's clinging. Yeah, it's not going to get better. She's got it. Don't do it. You need to have an independent, to be a hunter, in my opinion, you need to have a very independent woman to be someone that's going to be hunting a long time that is comfortable with herself and living on her own but loves when you're there. I think that would be the best way to explain it.

Speaker 03690.18s - 3719.7s

Well, and so, you know, I guess the takeaway is like you want to enjoy a life in the outdoors and hunting and that kind of thing and pursue it through your life because it's a passion and it means a lot to you. But yet you've decided to marry a partner who gives you shit every time you want to go hunting. How is that going to bode well 20 years down the road? You know, it builds resentment and it builds you being unwilling or I shouldn't sayunwilling, but, you know, your...

Speaker 33719.7s - 3721.8s

That's what they're going to tell you. You are unwilling.

Speaker 03721.94s - 3724.72s

You don't love me enough because you're unwilling to give it up. I've heard it.

Speaker 33730.24s - 3730.42s

That's lucky. Is that all you ever think about is hunting? Well, no,

Speaker 03737.2s - 3742.4s

that's not it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, either way, I think I'm glad you, I'm glad we're talking about this because. Yeah, no, I think there's a good takeaway there. It's just, you know, just be careful.

Speaker 33742.4s - 3745.74s

And take this for what it is. It's good advice from

Speaker 03745.74s - 3751.44s

guys that have been through it. Yeah. And I have a, you do too. I have an amazing daughter that I'd

Speaker 33751.44s - 3756.54s

never changed in anything and I brought her everywhere with me. But, you know, as far as the other end

Speaker 03756.54s - 3763.62s

of that, um, not, not, not so much didn't work out so well. So, um, all right, moving on from that,

Speaker 33763.7s - 3766.36s

um, you got, we've been on for an hour. You got, you got time? Oh, yeah, I'm fine. So, all right, moving on from that. You got to, we've been on for an hour. You got

Speaker 03766.36s - 3773.6s

you got time? Oh, yeah, I'm fine. So one of the things I would, I would, I've, and Mike, I mean

Speaker 33773.6s - 3779.68s

no disrespect when I say this, but one of the things I have brought up many, many times, I've used

Speaker 03779.68s - 3782.9s

you for an example. At the Mile Ha Hunt Expo, I used you and Ryan Roteer PERSON.

Speaker 33782.9s - 3799.94s

For an example, at the Mile Hunt Expo, I used you and Ryan Roteer PERSON. And this does not mean Ryan and Mike are out of shape, but you guys don't have eight-pack abs flipping tires over and doing CrossFit on a daily basis. And again, I do not mean that in a negative way.

Speaker 03800.3s - 3804.52s

No, I'm no offense taken. I'm not an underwear model, okay?

Speaker 33805.16s - 3813.32s

But two very gifted killers, right? Like you guys are both built about the same. I think he's 6-6 and probably 260. What are you?

Speaker 03814.4s - 3816.48s

6-6-7-270.

Speaker 33816.64s - 3817.88s

Yeah, about the same.

Speaker 03818.56s - 3836.82s

And very gifted at what they do. And when I say that, you know, Roteer PERSON pretty much bow hunts, but he can definitely shoot a gun. But he's I say that, you know, Roeer PERSON pretty much bow hunts, but he can, he can definitely shoot a gun, but he's, he's a bow hunter,but definitely, predator hunting all the way around. Mike has an uncannibility of shooting very big shit and also drawing, drawing tags.

Speaker 33837.42s - 3948.86s

The area you shot your, I'm not going to go into any of it, but we'll probably use some of these photos for your, you know, you're real.But. Sure. So having said that, what, I mean, the trophy hunting thing we talked about, talk about this hunt and what it took to put that animal on the ground. I've been fortunate to work with many great companies in the outdoor industry, but the people over at Bourne Primitive Outdoor ORG are definitely on the top of the list. All veterans donate a bunch of moneyinto veterans' organizations. And other than Bear Handlin's PERSON hair, which he probably should get cut, I can't really say anything but negative about him. Bruno, who also works for Born Primitive Tactical ORG, he has no hair, so I'm wondering,maybe you guys email in, donate some money. We can cut Bear's hair, glue it on Bruno PERSON. Kurt, on the other hand, hair, glue it on Bruno PERSON. Kurt PERSON, on the other hand, perfect hair, check them out, born primitive outdoor. Anybody that's followed along with me for the last couple years knows I've really been using and promoting Spartan Forge PRODUCT, the mapping software. The owner, Bill PERSON, who I must say is a pipe hitting dork, does all of the coding and thingslike that for Spartan Forge PRODUCT. He's also a military veteran. Again, there's a lot of positive things, not just about hunting and weather about Spartan Forge PRODUCT. So check it out. Amazing product.Owned by veterans, good dudes. I'm sure some of you have seen the speakers that are in my garage where it's on video or if you've come over to the house, but those are Demerbox ORG speakers. They're waterproof, very durable. It's basically aPelican ORG case with speakers inside. The battery, the charge lasts for a long time. Sound quality is amazing. Again, waterproof. I throw it in my truck. Keep them in my garage. Throw them outside when I'm working out and shooting. But a product that I can stand behind as well as the people that own and operate the company. So, Deemerbox ORG, take a look. Because, again, you're not running up the mountain.

Speaker 03948.98s - 4518.74s

You're just a fucking good hunter that doesn't give up. No, I had a unit in Colorado that I've been applying for for years. But I also photographed Big Horn Sheep in different places around the state. So I knew of a couple Rams, and one in particular was a 14-year-old ram, and he ended up being killed by the auction,not auction, but raffle to tag hunter the year before last. So I didn't go on the hunt. It was my buddy Trey PERSON and Tanner Coulter did it, and I just had some other stuff going on.I didn't really want to go, but there was two big rams in this, and, you know, I'd, you know, field judging these Rams ORG. I wasn't 100% sure that the biggest 14-year-old ram would break 180, and this guy that won the raffle tag, he wanted a 180-plus ram. So I was like, hey, man, I don't know what to tell you, but it's getting towards the end of the season.This ram is very killable. He's 14 years old. He's from a native unsupplemented herd in Colorado GPE. He's an alpine sheep that's, you know, come down to his winter range. I said, I don't think there's a greater trophy a guy could ask for if you had this giraffe.It's a tremendous sheep, 14 years old. But there was also another ram that was the second best one in the group that was 12 years old. So they ended up killing this 14-year-old ram. And for lack of a better term, somebody had nicknamed, actually the guy that nicknamed him was Janus Putele PERSON of a meat eater. He had the tag the year before Tanner Coulter, which was two years before this.And so nicknamed the Big Ram Chocolate because big mature Rams ORG in RAM groups tend to, for whatever reason, that you see usually the biggest, oldest ram is got the darkest coat. And I have no idea what the evolutionary reason is for that, but it really does seem to happen that if you see a RAM group and the biggest, darkest ram is typically the oldest one, and the dominant ram, too. So they got chocolate.He's this big old gnarly ram, and could not believe how big his body was. It was just astounding, and he's probably on the line, you know, close to some of those Missouri GPE brakes rams, which are the biggest sheep on the planet. And he ended up net scoring, I think, 185. So I was off by about seven inches on his score.And so this second ram, we nicknamed Chip PERSON because he has a chip out of the top of the right horn, which I'm sure there's like 85 different rams named Chip over the years in different places. But so Chip was the second best ram there. Tanner PERSON got a video clip of him and sent it to me. And I'm looking at it. I was like, God damn that ram looks big and he looks really good. And like I decided I'm going to freaking apply for this tag next year. So I switch units to apply for this tag specifically to hunt chip.I had pictures of, oh, maybe two years before that. And so, you know, I knew he's a pretty nice ram, but at that point I'm thinking, I think this ram's easily over 180. He's probably a solid Boone and Crockett PERSON ram, too, like his buddy chocolate. So I knew the three previous years tag holders, Steve Reed PERSON,then Janus, Putellas PERSON, and then Tanner had the tag. And so these guys had some experience there, and you know, they're hunting the same Ram group, but Chip PERSON and chocolate would seem to disappearwhen it would come hunting season. And none of these guys were able to get on them. And, you know, I was pretty confident Tanner PERSON was going to be able to. But for whatever reason, Tanner decided to get his wife pregnant to have a baby in September. And then he drew a sheep tag. So, you know, that was a – it got to the point where Tanner PERSON, you know,spent his time and found him in the summer. And, you know, he just ran out of time and his wife was close to being due. And, you know, he decided to take a hell of a nine-year-old ram and go home, which is, under the circumstances, you know, very acceptable move on his part. But that meant chocolate was still out there and Chip PERSON was still out there. And chocolate ended up getting killed by the raffle, tag hunter that year.So, you know, I was after Chip PERSON now. And by talking to these guys, I kind of had an idea. You know, they were convinced that this ram would, the two big rams would disappear and go into parts unknown. And my thought was, you know, they're basically working around this mountain. And they're going over the top.They're working around the sides. And they had three or four specific hangouts. But if you'd spook them, they could just go right over the top of the ridge in about 15 minutes of B into another spot. And if you were a guy on foot trying to do the same thing, it could take you two days to get all the way out of this drainage, work your way around, and get up the other drainage,and get into a place where you could actually see these rams again. And one of the most difficult things was, you know, when you need to be down to the bottom of these drainage is looking up into the mountains, there's so many benches and pockets and everythingyou couldn't see from down below. So you'd have to go across the drainage and glass across these drainage at, you know, two, three miles from a distance. And so logistically is a very challenging thing, but I kind of had a plan going into it. Of course, I hadn't even drawn a tag at this point.I was, you know, I had this video that Tanner PERSON sent me and I just became obsessed about this ram. And I, you know, my few close friends that I shared it with, I'm like, I'm applying for this tag. I'm hunting for this ram here. Well, my lucky ass through the tag.So that really, you know, when it happened, it was just, I could not believe that, you know, there's, I don't know, maybe 80-something, 90 people with three preference points or more. And there's three tags in the unit, and I drew one of the three tags. So, you know, I can't take any credit for that other than just being lucky. And so I had a plan in mind going into the hunt.And one of my plans, with the fact that I was retired, I had a lot of time on my hands. And I wasn't, I was going to spend my time trying to find these Rams ORG and then get on them right away because I had two of the guys that were the competition in the unit. Both these guys are younger than me and possibly more fit.I don't know. But, you know, I knew that I couldn't compete with guys that were, you know, 15 years younger than me as far as trying to get, I wasn't going to get into a foot race with anybody. I wanted to work smarter, not harder. So that being said, I had a plan of mine, and I was there two weeks before the hunt,and I found the Rams ORG, and they worked around a lot into the different spots. And I thought I'd found Chip, but in retrospect, it wasn't him. And it wasn't until, oh, two days before the season opened that I would confirm that I saw Chip PERSON for sure. And what happened was, is we were across this drainage looking all the way across two and a half, three miles, and I could see him in my spotting scope.And I knew he had a longer right horn, and he was the only ram in the entire group that had this really long horn. I figured he was about 41 inches long, and he ended up being 39.5, so I was off a little bit. But he had a noticeably longer right horn and so I finally identified that it was himthree days before the end of the season but you know we were glassing these sheep and it got to be about 10 o'clock of the morning and all of a sudden they got up out and we had already packed up our stuff and we're getting ready to go. And it took one last look through them. And all of a sudden, the Rams ORG are on their feet and they start hauling ass and they just run right over the top of the mountain. So the plan that I had in mind for opening day, I mean, we're going to go back down to the truck, get our stuff, and backpack up this drainage. And if we did, we would be out of sight of the sheep and we wouldn't be able to see them.So the fact that we stayed a few minutes longer and saw these Rams ORG booger out, what they ended up boogering out from was some archery hunters that were down below them and winded them. And so they just left the drainage. They went over the top into the drainage. I looked at everybody, I'm like, this is fucked right now.Because what this means right now is we have a 12 mile walk to get into the other drainage on the backside of this mountain 12 miles one way so it really changed logistically what was going to happen and you know for me it was uh you know if we hadn't have seen that we would have backpacked up that drainage and i would have been spinning my wheels for you know possibly a week trying to figure out where this ram was. So I got pretty lucky, just the fact that welingered a little bit and ended up seeing these ramps spook out was a pretty important aspect of the whole story. So we got our stuff and we packed in there the next day andset up and went up in there and found the group of Rams and they're group of Rams ORG. And they're kind of just lollygagging out in the sun and out of cover all day, but we didn't see Chip PERSON at all. And right at dark, one of the guys that was with me, Spencer PERSON,he's a kid from Idaho GPE, a real good set of highs. He spotted a ram going through some willows down away from the main group of sheep. And this ram had come out of the timber and he was in the willows. And we finally got a glimpse right before dark and it was Chip PERSON. And so, well, that's cool, man. He's right there and he's, you know, three quarters of a mile away from where else.

Speaker 34518.84s - 4522.96s

Hold on. Were you shitting your pants a little that you hadn't seen him yet?

Speaker 04526.66s - 4644.9s

Yeah, you know, I was, no, I wouldn't say shit in my pants. I would say I was concerned, but I was like, you know, this is, I was prepared for the long haul on this hunt. And so, yeah, I mean, I was confident we're going to find him eventually. We'd just, you know, I figured, honestly, I figured he was further up the drainage and, and a little more remote country. And so when we saw them come out of the willows right below this timber patch, I was like,oh, that's cool, weird. And so I got up the next morning at first, I mean, zero dark 30. I was in my spotting scope, and it was just getting light enough to see. And I could see him. And the night before Spencer PERSON had taken, well, I couldn't see him. I could see some sheep.And Spencer had taken my tripod and, and Spencer had taken my had taken, well, I couldn't see him, I could see some sheep. And Spencer had taken my tripod and spotting scope all set up and took it back into their teepee tent for the night just to keep it out of the dew and whatnot. So I went, Rick PERSON and knocked on his tent and got the spotting scope from him and came out there. And I put the scope on the RAM and I literally saw him for about 10, 15 seconds he was in cover and we didn't see him the rest of the day. Went up the drainage, got set up in another spot, watching for him, did not see him. And this happened the next morning also. We saw him at first light and then he disappeared and I got up there within rifle rangeor where he disappeared and with the willows that had seen him in the night and before, literally waited there all day long until it finally got dark and we went back to camp and like, holy shit, you know, where'd he go now? Well, turns out this ram was almost entirely nocturnal at this point. I've never seen this with a sheep to this extent. And he was acting like an old bull elk or a white tail buck, and he was going in and out of cover at first and last light. And the rest of the Rams ORG are just literally just hanging out in the open sun during the dayand knocking each other around with their horns and just doing sheep stuff. And this big ram chip and a couple buddies were going into the timber and they were standing there too. It was almost dark.

Speaker 14646.76s - 4648.72s

So fast forward to the third morning.

Speaker 04648.96s - 4750.76s

I'm like, well, we got up in the dark and worked our way around through this basin over Dead Falls LOC, cliffs and everything, just getting in there. We used the red lights on our headlamps and went into the trees where the sheepwouldn't be able to see anything at all, even in the darkness or early morning twilight, and got up in there at first light, and he was bedded down up on the mountain above us, and all I could see was a little bit of his back on top of his horns, and he finally stood up out of his bed,and I touched off a shot, and I air-melted of his bed and, and, uh, I touched off a shot and, and I air melded over his back and smack the cliff behind him. And I'm like, holy shit, all this. And I know if he spooks out of there, I'm just screwed because he's going to leave there and we're going to have to backpack out of there and basically reset the whole thing and we're going to have to take some days off because of all the hiking we're doing and so you know I was just like gotta fuck this up you know I couldn't believeit racked another round in and touched off again and I was high again and so I'm shooting oh maybe eight to ten inches over the top of his back and I've got you know I've got my my gun I've got it ranged I've got uh you know I dialed him in on my turret and everything. And, you know, I felt like, and I've shot this gun a bunch. It's the same rifle you have, the Viking ORG arm that 6.5 PRC. I mean, I have killed over 30 animals with it. So I know how this thing shoots. So I was high again, and Spencer PERSON's calling the shots for me.And so they run into the timber, and I'm like, oh, man, I'm screwed now.

Speaker 14750.82s - 4751.74s

They're going up through the timber.

Speaker 24751.84s - 4753.42s

They're going to disappear over the top of the mountain.

Speaker 14753.92s - 4758.18s

Well, we picked him up again in the timber, and this time I compensated.

Speaker 04758.26s - 4779.98s

I held low on him and fricking smacked him right in the shoulder. And he whirled around and stumbled a little bit, and I did the same hold again and hit him again. And we saw him, you know, kind of bounce a little bit, and he dropped off a little rock face. I shouldn't say little rock face.About a 15-foot rock face in the cliffs. It tumbled down into the timber.

Speaker 34780.42s - 4783.2s

So how long was it from the second shot to that shot?

Speaker 04784.22s - 4791.38s

Like probably a couple minutes. Yeah, enough to make me nearly in panic mode on the whole thing.

Speaker 34791.58s - 4798.18s

Yeah, that's what I was wondering, because that never generally turns out when they're in the trees.

Speaker 04798.68s - 4806.1s

No, and that's why I was mentally in panic mode because I know I had my opportunity all this went into this

Speaker 34806.1s - 4808.1s

all this planning effort scouting

Speaker 04808.1s - 4840.06s

all the above and I'm just freaking blown it so long story short as the ram disappeared but you know at that point I couldn't see him or anything so Spencer PERSON and my buddy Josh Shulginhiked up the mountain and they went up this rock slide and then into the timber and they pushed all the way across it hoping to, you know, either pushed the ram out more in my direction or find him. They made it through and they didn't see him and then,uh, they went back through a second pass and they found him piled up against a tree. So it was pretty steep,

Speaker 34840.06s - 4841.34s

steep slope.

Speaker 04841.34s - 4843.74s

It was, you know, at least a 50 degree angle.

Speaker 34844.24s - 4890.08s

I want to make sure I don't want to detract from the story too much but one of the things that what is smart that you guys did and I want to make sure this isvery people understand this I personally never want the guy on the gun to go over and try to jump shoot shoot some shit, or maybe find it. It's far better generally to have the guy on the gun watching if someone else is coming through to potentially push an animal out. Because once, if you leave the spot you shot from, you're one of the dumbest things that you can do.You will lose the bunch of animals. Never leave that spot. Someone stays. Talk about that. you're one of the dumbest things that you can do. You will lose the bunch of animals. Never leave that spot. Someone stays. Talk about that. Yeah.

Speaker 04896.32s - 4937.06s

And that's one thing I've told people, too, is when you find a big animal, even if, you know, before the shot or everything, you just never take your eyes off of them. You know, you don't bed down a ram and then take a nap. You know, somebody's always got to be watching. And so, you know, we had that going on. And, you know, just to answer some questions people probably have right now, why was I shooting high?I've got the original EL range, Serovsky PRODUCT binoculars. And what I had no idea was at extreme angles, sometimes the compensation would be off on that first generation. And I'd never heard that before. Now, in retrospect, it makes perfect sense because when I shot my mountain goat, I hit them high too. But honestly, I've never heard that before.

Speaker 14937.06s - 4941.76s

I've thought, you know, when I shot up my goat, I figured I was just screwing it up.

Speaker 24942.56s - 4945.34s

And so talking to my buddy, Derek Hovey PERSON,

Speaker 04945.4s - 4977.3s

he's a precision long-range shooter. He's a competitive shooter, shoots with John Pansion PERSON. And he was telling me that, you know, they were having those original first-gen, Sorosky-Yeal Ranger PRODUCT giving guys fits. And so for that reason, on those steep angle compensation,never had any issues with it all, at more level type of ranging, but for whatever reason, it just doesn't, the compensation really gets off. So that's why I was hitting highat that range both times. And so, you know, it made me feel a little better than I'm not,

Speaker 34977.34s - 4979.18s

not just a dumb shit

Speaker 04979.18s - 4980.36s

that was choking at the moment.

Speaker 34980.36s - 4997.96s

That range finder is one of the worst for angle comp. And I only know this because I did a ton of the testing with on the archery and rifle side. Sure. It's, it's bad. It's really, it's really bad. 22 degrees after that, it really starts to go shit after 22 degrees. Well, you know, we're

Speaker 04997.96s - 5005.66s

40 to 50 degrees where I was shooting. So, you know, that's, you can imagine that's why I was shooting a foot and a half high.

Speaker 35006.06s - 5016.1s

Oh, yeah. So how far were the shots? A little over 400. Yeah, so not for that gun, that's very, I mean, in your capability, that's a good shot.

Speaker 05016.22s - 5029.18s

You weren't poking in a home. I know you have a, I know you have a, probably a pretty heavy archery following. So, you know, I'm sure people are scoffing right now. 400 yards and, you know, that's not sporting and all that other shit.

Speaker 35030.06s - 5031.48s

I'm, you know, I've talked about this.

Speaker 05031.62s - 5032.04s

I don't think.

Speaker 35033.26s - 5034.86s

That's not that bad of a shot.

Speaker 05035.18s - 5036.76s

That's a respectable.

Speaker 35036.98s - 5039s

That's not poking it out there to me.

Speaker 05039.62s - 5067.22s

No, I've talked to half a dozen guys in last week because I was thinking about this. Asking people about if they know of any truly big Colorado GPE big horns that were taken in the alpine with archery gear. And I'm talking about big Rams too, you know, like 180 plus. And nobody that I talked to could think of any. You know, people mentioned that, you know, back Georgetown, back in the day, in the heyday of S-32 up in a...

Speaker 25067.22s - 5072.12s

There might have been a... Danny Kloom PERSON. His was 170.

Speaker 05072.12s - 5073.1s

Yeah, I mean, yeah, Danny PERSON killed her.

Speaker 35073.44s - 5077.86s

Yeah, he killed a, what, low mid-170s round in S-9, I think.

Speaker 05077.98s - 5080.7s

He was 178, but that's the biggest one I know of.

Speaker 35081.32s - 5081.6s

Yeah.

Speaker 05082.22s - 5203.34s

And I, you know, that's... And to kill a truly giant big horn in the alpine is just, you know, to do it with archery gear would just be a remarkable feat. It's just, it's such a difficult. So one, the idea of trying to hunt this ram that I was hunting, for one, he was in a place that he was virtually unapproachable.I mean, we're talking cliffs and timber on very, very steep stuff. And I know there's guys that probably think, you know, I could make that stock. I could get in there. I'm telling you what, it was, and you have one chance. You have absolutely just one. If you bugger him, he is leaving the drainage.So you have one chance on that stock. And, you know, obviously if you were a patient guy, you could sit back and wait, maybe. You might have to watch them for days. And finally, if it gets in a position in daylight hours where you can make a stock. But I'll just say this. You have one opportunity.And that big old smart ram is going to leave the drainage. And then you have to start over at that point. And, you know, some people are willing to take on that challenge. That's great. But it would be, I would say just for reference, the idea of how many of these truly big Rams have been killed in the Alpine in Colorado GPE is a, you know, Colorado, I think,has the most sheep tags of any Western NORP state. And I could think, you know, you could probably count on one hand all time how many truly big archery Rams have been taken in the alpine in Colorado GPE. So that just goes to show you what, and what it is, it speaks to the difficulty of hunting sheep in this high altitude stuff and, you know, how difficult it can be to get in on them. So, yeah, it's, I'm not trying to blow my own horn, say I did something spectacular forstocking this ram. I'm just saying that, you know, the idea of trying to blow my own horn, say I did something spectacular for stalking this realm. I'm just saying that, you know, the idea of hunting these type of sheep in these places with archery gear is, it's a supreme challenge that very few things in hunting in North America LOC would rival that kind of challenge. It'd be like stalking a giant white tail in his bed.It's like virtually impossible to try to do that. That's why I can sit in tree stands.

Speaker 35204.06s - 5214.82s

Yeah, no, the big horn sheep with archery, and as I said, Danny PERSON, that's the only one I could think of. And, you know, as you know, I've been on a lot of archery.

Speaker 05215.62s - 5226.46s

Ram Lonson, I mean, Danny's was one, you know, when I was with Phil PERSON, we were on, well, that ram ended up getting killed. It was 180. Dude, it might have been 190.

Speaker 35226.62s - 5257.46s

I don't. Some dude killed it with a rifle. And, you know, we were on that RAM, and like you talked about, we blew it. I say we blew it. We had another chance at it. And Phil PERSON killed an amazing ram.I mean, it was eight and a half, I say amazing. With archery equipment, eight and a half year old ram, I was happy. I mean, it's not easy with a bow, half year old ram, I was happy. I mean, it's not easy with a bow, but it's like, I don't think people understand.It's hard to say it in words and people grasp. It is a bitch hunting, big horn sheep with a bow in the alpine. It fucking sucks.Yeah,

Speaker 05257.5s - 5263.98s

and there's been some tremendous rams killed with archery gear down in the S34 outside of Colorado Springs GPE, but,

Speaker 35264.22s - 5264.42s

yeah,

Speaker 05264.52s - 5302.02s

I'm not taking anything away from these, but, you know, those same sheep are laying in people's yards eating their grass in the summer. They're very habituated to humans. And so the seasons held in the rut, and, you know, they, you know, they let their guard down and that kind of thing. So people are able to kill some damn night.I mean, in fact, the guy that won the raffle last year, he killed a boot and Crockett Ram down there in S-34 PRODUCT, and good on him, man. But it's doing it in a place where you have low country human-habituated animals versus the alpine at 12 to 13,000 feeter. You may as well be hunting two different things. That's a completely different experience.

Speaker 35303.3s - 5306s

Yeah, no, no, for a fact. So

Speaker 05306s - 5308.06s

how many people do you have with you for the

Speaker 35308.06s - 5309.68s

packout? Three? I count right?

Speaker 05309.96s - 5362.52s

My wife was there. Josh Shulgin PERSON and Spencer PERSON and Spencer's wife, Danny PERSON, who filmed the hunt for me. Spencer PERSON wouldn't have been along if itwasn't for Danny PERSON. So I, Josh is, my buddy Josh Shulgin from California. Some people might recognize his name. He's doing some sheep guiding out in California, and he's made a name for himself doing some pretty good stuff out there. So Danny PERSON's his cousin.She's a wonderful young lady. She's up in Idaho, and her husband Spencer PERSON is just an absolute go-getter. These are all just great young people and really happy to have him along and share the experience with him. So between me and my wife, Danny and Spencer and Josh L's five of us there. So, you know, it was a, it was pretty handy packing that ram out because he was big,big, body cheap.

Speaker 15363.72s - 5370.6s

That's no reason why I ask the head and cape was probably 65 pounds, I would guess, on that thing.

Speaker 35370.68s - 5373.2s

Is that pretty close to 65 to 70?

Speaker 05373.28s - 5389.12s

Yeah. Well, it might not be that much. You know, it's every bit of 50, I'm sure. Did you shoulder or full body? I did a shoulder. Okay.I'm doing a shoulder. In fact, he's mounted right now. He'll be at the Rocky Mountain Big Horn Society banquet next week. Cool.

Speaker 35389.28s - 5400.84s

The only reason why, and I was talking like full body, so people understand, like, yeah, you're getting as much cape and head as you are meat out of that fucker. Like that head and cape is damn near as much meat as if you do a full body.

Speaker 05401.74s - 5543.76s

Well, this, uh, this is something I've never done before. And I've, uh, you know, I've never done before. And I've, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm showing my underbelly right now.But, you know, I was 57, but I just turned, no, I guess I was 56 last year on my hunt,but I just turned 57 in September. So, you know, that's, you know, I hiked all summer long.I mean, if anybody follows me on Instagram ORG, I'm always seeing my post about sheep shape hikes and stuff. So I'm down here in the San Juan LOC's, and I do a lot of hiking. But I can tell you right now, when you get into your mid to late 50s, it's like, it's everything you do can do just to keep that edge.And it's a, if you take time off, it takes you so much longer to get it back than when you're in your 20s, 30s, and even your 40s. It's just, you know, time just gets up with us. I'm getting older and it's getting harder. So on the packout, I had made it about six miles out carrying my ram, and, you know, we split the meat up between everybody, and I was freaking toast, and we got down to the bottom of this long grade,we had to go up, and it was about a thousand feet elevation and maybe two-mile grade up this trail. And I'm like, I'm taking everything out of my pack, and I'm just going to carry the ram out at this point. I'll come back here next week and grab all my gear. So I was planning just, you know, go stashed in the trees somewhere and come back for it.And Spencer PERSON goes, would you like me to carry it for you, Mike? I'm like, no, man, you can't do that. He goes, no, I'd be honored. And I'm like, okay.So, and it was, you know, instead of trying to unpack my pack and throw all my shit and Spencer PERSON's backpack, it was much easier to just take the ram off my pack and strap it on there. And so practically speaking, that was the easiest thing to do as opposed to me symbolically carrying my RAM the rest of the way.And like I said, I've never done that before. Everything. And I encourage people to pack, like even going on guided huts. I think it's an important aspect to it. You carry out your own sheep if you can. But, you know, like I said, full disclosure here, that's Spencer PERSON ended up helping me out with the pack out.We get out back to the camper and our vehicles and whatnot. And it's like people were saying, oh, you know, what do you want to sit around and have a couple of beers? Like, fuck that.

Speaker 25543.82s - 5551.84s

Let's go to Smashburger right now. I'm starving. That's funny. Yeah. I just had John Barclow on right

Speaker 05551.84s - 5556.3s

before you, and we were talking about that, because you and Barclow were the same age. So you've got

Speaker 35556.3s - 5599.4s

what, uh, he, well, no, he's, what if he's 55, you're 50. So you got 10 years on me. He's got, uh, what if, you know, 7, 8, whatever. The difference, that does not sound like that much, but I can tell you me 10 years ago will crush everyone's soul around me. Me now, I'm like, you know, I think I'm not going to carry. I mean, it shit changes as you get older, no matter how much you don't want it to. And so now I can still get after it, but I really have to be cognizant. I got to choose my battles. If I got to carry a, I can't do as much dumb shit.My knee is starting to catch up with me. Barclow just had a hip replacement, and you have a new knee. Don't you?

Speaker 05599.56s - 5626.1s

Yeah, I got a new knee replacement. It'll be, I guess it was just three years in March, so just over three years now. And it's freaking great. But it was, you know, it was worn out. I had no cartilage, bone spurs everywhere, and it was just destroyed and had a basketball injury and a skiing injury. And it just was exacerbated from there over the years. And so I got to the point where it's just, it freaking just hurt. I hurt all the time. And so I got to the point where it's just, it freaking just hurt.

Speaker 25626.28s - 5628.38s

I hurt all the time. And I was losing mobility.

Speaker 05629.34s - 5668.02s

And I remember going to the orthodoc and I got a cortisone shot. I think I got four or five shots before I finally had surgery. And he's like, well, you just say, no, you're going to need a knee replacement one of these days. And I said, oh, yeah, when is that? When do you think I'll have to do that? He goes, oh, you'll'll know and it was true he said you'll call me so it finally got to the point whereit was just hurting enough and then I was losing a mobility and my hamstring was starting to tighten up and and it was just like I couldn't extend my knee straight anymore and it's just my my hamstring was getting worse and worse and it's just like, I couldn't extend my knee straight anymore. And it was just my hamstring was getting worse and worse. And it was just like, all right, it's time now.

Speaker 25668.58s - 5670.2s

So I did it in the off season.

Speaker 05671s - 5693.86s

I actually got that Mountain Go reissue tag six months after I got my knee replacement, and ended up backpacking. And Tanner Coulter PERSON went in there with me on that, and it was just a freaking godsend. I could have done it without him, but the fact that you hada young tough dude in there to help you carry a big ass billy out of the mountains, it was just, it was a big deal, man. Yeah,

Speaker 35693.86s - 5695.24s

he's in very good shape too.

Speaker 05695.32s - 5745.42s

He can go, so. Yeah, without even trying, too. I asked his brother, Cody, about it. I was like,what the hell is his deal? He says, I don't know. But he doesn't even do cardio or anything. He just, yeah, he's got that muscle memory and thatbase and he's just he's mountain fit. And I'll say this, referencing back our conversation a little while ago, Tanner PERSON went up and guided for Steve Johnson PERSON up in Alaskafor quite a few years for doll sheep. And he did it in a place called the Tonzina GPE walk-in area where you didn't get dropped off by an airplane you left the highway and you put the boots on and hit the mountains with your backpack and you walked all the way into this doll sheep unit so that was how Tanner cut his teeth for mountain hunting in Alaska GPE and it made him pretty freaking tough not that he wouldn't have been already anyways, but...

Speaker 35745.42s - 5747.66s

It didn't hurt, and he got to do some super cool shit.

Speaker 05748.58s - 5758.36s

Absolutely. Yeah, what a great experience for a young guy. So now he's got two sons, and he's married, living up by Craig PERSON, and he got to get all that out of his system at a younger age.

Speaker 25758.9s - 5764.12s

He still wants the doll sheep guide, but it's a bit different when you've got two little boys

Speaker 05764.12s - 5769.12s

at home that want to be around dad, and you just can't leave kids for a month at a time.

Speaker 25769.82s - 5770.6s

No, totally.

Speaker 05771.16s - 5801.24s

Yeah, it's a, it was a great hunt, a great experience for me that sheep hunt. It was a pinnacle experience for me in life, and I was glad to have the people along with me, my wife was with me, and then we got to share the experience. We slept underneath one of your Kafaru Tar PRODUCT, which I didn't bring a the people along with me. My wife was with me, and we got to share the experience. We slept underneath one of your Kafaru PRODUCT tarps. I didn't bring a tent in there with me. And I was pretty fond of that big tarp.We did get a little dusty dirty, like dust muffins and that kind of thing. But it's better than packing a 6, 8l.0.

Speaker 35801.32s - 5803.38s

It saves weight. That's for damn sure.

Speaker 05803.48s - 5808.42s

For sure, yeah. Yeah. And we knew the weather was going to be good, too, so I didn't have any problem with that.

Speaker 35808.82s - 5809.36s

Heck, yeah.

Speaker 05810s - 5810.58s

Well, cool.

Speaker 35810.72s - 5842.52s

Well, dude, we've hit an hour and a half. So we've covered far, I thought we were covered maybe one, two of those topics, but we got all three plus some. But I think with everything, people take in context what we're talking about, I hope they do anyway. Like, you know, when we were talking about the tag allocation and you know truly your job choices andin your spouse choices it uh it all makes a difference if you're addicted to hunting the choices you make are going to really kind of make or break what you are able to do in the field and

Speaker 25842.52s - 5848.22s

and how often you're going to be able to do it and you make dumb decisions at a young age you're going to be screwed for a while.

Speaker 05849s - 5852.28s

Yep, there's a lot more to this than just picking the right broadhead, right?

Speaker 35853s - 5853.64s

Oh, fuck.

Speaker 05853.88s - 5854.84s

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 35855.66s - 5863.66s

I don't think people have. Also, I'll say that real quick in closing, people are very hung up on gear now these, and gear choices these days.

Speaker 05863.66s - 5892.1s

And I watch your question and answer sessions on Instagram ORG. And I appreciate that. It makes all sense. But people have to understand that there's a lot more to it than gear choices. It's going to be your keys to success. And, you know, none of this stuff matters.I mean, it matters some. But, you know, when you double lung a deer, it doesn't matter what broadhead it was, you know, for the most part. It matters that you hit them in the crease through both lungs, right? Yeah.

Speaker 25892.72s - 5897.08s

You know, it doesn't matter if your arrow weighed 50 grains more or 50 grains less.

Speaker 05897.16s - 5921.56s

It matters that you've got that in the right shot. It matters that you've got in the right place to shoot that deer. That's the stuff that matters a lot. The rest is just, you know, little accessories to build your confidence and make you comfortable because that's part of what gear is. It makes our experience more comfortable in the mountains.But don't, I advise people not to be so hung up on gear that they're missing the point of what we're really doing here. Yeah.

Speaker 25921.8s - 5922.46s

No, I would agree.

Speaker 05922.56s - 5926.88s

100% animal behavior, anatomy, woodsmanship uh all that kind of

Speaker 35926.88s - 5939.86s

stuff is free uh and it doesn't weigh shit so those are very important things too so but absolutely all right well mike PERSON i appreciate you hopping on dude seriously thank you you bet good chat

Speaker 05939.86s - s

all right man take it easy. You too.