Aimless Talk: Plyo Edition with Matt McInnes Watson and Tim Riley

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All right, Tim and Matt PERSON, hey, you guys got my notes for this podcast, right? I set them over email.

Speaker 26.7s - 8.08s

Yeah, no chance. No.

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Even if you had sent notes, I wouldn't have read them.

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I didn't send a thing, but we're going to talk, we're going to talk Plios.

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Okay, we all met up a week ago. You guys had the seminars.

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So tell me the thoughts post-seminar.

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Matt, you go first.

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Great group of people.

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Nice diverse group as well. It's like doing this thing, like you assume that everyone's going to rock up and they're all going to be coaches and then you're like, nope. It's just, yeah, it's going to be people with a thousand different directions and we, yeah, and then you get some real, real random questions off the back of that. But yeah, it was great.It was great. The facility was awesome, collective. Like it just, yeah, round smoothly. We figured out some, yeah, some funny little bits at the beginning that we were trying to get done with a presenter presentation stuff. But, you know, we made it work.And yeah, it's just good to, well, I always enjoy the lunch. It's just, you know, made it work um and yeah it's just good to well i always enjoy the lunch it's just you know getting together with a big group of guys and just chatting shit over a burger

Speaker 272.08s - 154s

i remember the topic of that conversation it cannot be shared on this podcast but uh yeah overall i think it went really well um you know, in the beginning, like our fucking projector situation wasn't working. And the thing that we were supposed to project on kept falling down. And then, you know, there was like this crazy sound of speakers were making every 30 seconds when Matt PERSON was trying to talk. And then after about 45 minutes, it was great. And some stuff I took away was, you know, it's funny.It's because the way that I use plios and, you know, the way I've been married to it in my own training and how I use it with athletes, like the way that Matt PERSON organizes things was really insightful. And then he just uses a different terminology. Like I realized that like maybe perhaps I have like a middle schoolers grasp on pliometric terminology.And he's saying things. He's like what he calls a leaps. Like I'm calling Pogo PRODUCT hops. So I just feel like a moron. But it was good to get things. It's good to see things through someone else's lens and just the way that he organizesthings and what he finds important and how much exposure over the course of the week. It was all really insightful.

Speaker 3155.28s - 168.92s

I liked at the end when Tim PERSON you went up for the Q&A, I forget how you phrased it, but you were like, you were beating around the bush and you're like, you know what, I'm just going to say it, Pogo PRODUCT hops like, you were beating around the bush and you're like, you know what, I'm just gonna say it, Pogelhoops PERSON. You all know what I'm talking about.

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Everyone knew.

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Everyone knew exactly what I meant.

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Because I couldn't fucking remember. I was like, I was like, I know Matt PERSON has a name for this and we just learned it and I've already forgotten it, you know? And it's not like it's, it's not the first time I've, like I've done Matt PERSON's programs. I've followed his content forever. Like I know what they're supposed to be called and in true to tim form i just

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couldn't get it together yeah um you had this phrase matt what was it sans plyometrics most

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things are not plymetrics right um yeah and yet And yet people call them plymetrics

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like a box jump,

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seated box jump. But you said they have value

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and I wrote down what value. Matt PERSON,

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go first, then Tim PERSON. Yeah, I always, like I took that phrase from when I was writing a studyin my PhD. I was like, how can I describe other jumping movements that aren't plyometric climate? So like a sand's movement that's just not fundamentally plyometric. And I just put it in there in a seminar just to make the distinction. But and I always, people always think that like I shit on other jumping metrics and otherjumping methods. And it's like, you know, there's still relevance to it. I think some people struggle with certain like takeoff base capacity sort of situation. Certain people just can't fucking extend properly. And I think it sometimes carries over from, let's say, someone that's back squatting and they get a hell of a lot of like knee extension before they can get their hips through that often then resides in what they do when they take off. So if they're doing like a,just like a stand in broad jump, sometimes they are just, they just almost go nowhere and they're like hanging in the air and they've not used hip extension well and it just doesn't sequence well. So like I use a lot of, a lot of those takeoff base. I don't really use a lot of box jumping. I did a little bit of it when I was an athlete and I was just like, well, I don't know. I don't know. This is just a test. This is a competition. And cool. You want to play with it and chase it. Cool. But I don't think it's a, it's not a training method. So, yeah, that's normally sequencingthings is normally the best way for me to use sand supply metrics or just jump other jump methods, timing things well. And if you've really got movement morons, and you can kind of just use that as a way to be like, this is how you fold, this is how you extend, and we'll do a bit faster, and we'll just see what happens. So, yeah, it doesn't go that deep for me. I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of love for it.There's also a lot of people that assume that people genuinely are such movement morons that they can't do like a repeated leap on the spot or a repeated pogo hop, if you want to call it that, Tim PERSON. So they have to use a counter movement jump to spot or a repeated pogo hop. Do you want to call it that, Tim? So they have to use a counter movement jump to test on a force plate. And I'm like, fuck, these people can't just jump on the spot. Like, you are shit at your job.Like figure out a way to teach people this. So, yeah, just sequencing stuff. Use energy. Repel yourself. And yeah, it's kind of a means to an end i think

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Tim PERSON what do you got yeah i think well a couple things i think i do like the idea of

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you know sans plyometrics just what i would call jump training like let's say for example

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i'll give a few examples so if i'm working with athletes and let's say we're getting ready for something like a combine, that would be the easiest example to use.

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Okay.

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So there are ways, and let's say I load them and I dose them pretty heavy on and they get a good amount of plyometric contact, but I still want them to get explosive training on a separate day, maybe even the day after that they've had a lot of more intense plyometric exposures.

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I think it's a really great thing where I can still get this explosive training stimulus

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without it being this super high fatigue, incredibly neural demanding thing. And it's something like, for example, like a seated box jump or like maybe even a seated broad jump. It's something I can pair with another movement movement and they can get a little dose of something that's really explosive and really quick without burying them further and fatigue. Because fatigue management, particularly when it comes to something like getting them readyfor a specific outcome or a specific event, is something that I have to consider. And then also too, and Matt PERSON touched on this a little bit. So, you know, working with people who like don't have any jump experience or jump history, I do think that there can be something useful about the safety and the confines of telling someone, hey, you can fucking rip it right now and jump on the box. Or from this seat of position, just jump as high as you can.Because to, you know, to kind of piggyback off what Matt PERSON said as well, like, I agree. Like there's very few people who can't learn how to do like a squat jump on the spot. But I do think that there is a governor or a level of inhibition

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that people experience who haven't been doing anything, pushing it anywhere near what their ceiling is, either they haven't done it in a long time or maybe ever, where exposure to what

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that might feel like in combination with the safety of those things can be really helpful and useful. Those are the first, those are like the two things that come to mind. But I do see clearly like with what Matt says where it's like just having fucking do junk swaths, you know, or Pocos PRODUCT.

Speaker 3519.92s - 548.72s

Yeah, you said safety, but all I can take when you say safety is I, when I used to work with men swim and I'm like, all right, box jump, let's keep going up. I have like 75% of them who will jump to the point where they miss the box and, like, they may fall backwards and land on their head. And I'm like, you idiots, and now we're done. And I had to just, like, I don't do that often. I'm pretty nice guy, but I'm just like, I'm standing in front of the box now, no more box jumps.We're done. Yeah, you're done.

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You've ruined it for everyone.

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The landing thing, the landing thing, because like, so like if we do the box jump or like the

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sand supply metric, you're just jumping, no landing.

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You had a thing early on, Matt PERSON.

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You were saying the counter movement jump landing that, and I, I guess I haven't, it would probably

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just take a quick google search to

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see this confirm this but like the the spike in the spike in force how it's higher when you land

Speaker 0570.56s - 579.2s

um i would wonder if that's actually the same thing within achilles because then i think like if you're doing all the sand spymetric training you're never really preparing your petala and

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achilles if they do get that larger spike and force from landing um you're basically just jumping on boxes and not getting that.

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So I'm curious you guys' thoughts on this.

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There was just paper.

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You know, it's called jumpers knee, but they were saying, is it called lander's knee? And I'm like, you know, I've always kind of questioned that stuff. But what do you guys think in terms of that, just landing in and of itself, but like landing and then repeating, like that, how valuable that is compared to doing a box jump or doing some just stationary counter movements like you obviously.

Speaker 1616.12s - 791.24s

The, I think it's, it's good insight. And it's also, it also makes me laugh with regards to using like a Sands Plyometric movement for someone that's not necessarily ready for it, just like a counter movement jump on the spot and then being like, oh yeah, they're not ready for the Plyometrics PRODUCT. And then they take off maximally and land from a maximum height back on the ground. And you're like, hmm, like you say, those forces right there.But then it goes back to, I guess it doesn't, it goes back to movement efficiency. Like, I'm just going to land in a way that my body's going to organize so that I, you know, I don't hurt myself or whatever.When you're sending it one rep after the other as fast as you can, then I guess it becomes slightly different in the way that that goes. But yeah, always makes me laugh at that. But the, the idea of like a takeoff being, it becomes almost pretty passivefrom like a static movement perspective. Like if you're in a squat jump, like you have really prepared the tendon to be kind of in its safest position possible, right? Like you've scooted down and you're ready and you're like, cool, and then I'm just going to take off. And it's almost the same with a counter movement jump. Like, you've scooted down and you're ready and you're like,and then I'm just going to take off. And it's almost the same with a counter movement jump. Like, if you see someone that's got inhibition to do that and they know they've got a sore Achilles, then they just did the biggest avoidance strategy ever. But like, yeah, you just can't hide at velocity. You know that at the time. You're like, oh, motherfucker. I've done it again. Like, I've just hit that exact spot where my knee just gets pissed off when I do that. Because you just, it's just too fast.It's too fast. And it's like the, like the reactive capacity to make a decision is slow. So like the muscular contraction to like support like a protection of that is also going to be equally as slow. So it, yeah, I think that with, there's two sides to it. I think the velocity side of it where you really can't control what's going on is positive and negative because sometimes you just need to be thrown into that when it's, you know,you're a certain stage. And let's say you're coming back from knee issue or Achilles issue. You just need to do some dynamic stuff so that it's not so tentative that you're actually, when you find someone that's got loads of inhibition and you try to get them to move, they often hurt themselves again or they're like produce another chronic issue because they are so inhibited by it. And actually, you just need to find store and release. And you're like, oh shit, that's actually what it wants. It doesn't wantto be like snatched that or so highly contracted that it's like, I'm just going to dip that toe out in front of me and just fucking hope for the best. So, yeah, it's, um, lander's knee is probably a pretty good one. Um, it's just how you perceive landers. I think it's just acceleration into a landing, like velocity into a landing, um, that, um, that, that ultimately is going to give you that, like, oh, shit, that hurts. Yeah.

Speaker 2791.88s - 919.78s

I mean, when you first said that, Jake PERSON, I was like, oh, that kind of makes a lot of sense to me. But now, as Matt PERSON talked, I started to think it's like, well, yes, but also the only thing that I could think about was the velocity. You know, so like anytime I've ever had a spike in my own jumper's knee or working with athletes, it's because we brought too much velocity to the party too soon or too quickly or they just weren't prepared for it. And like it's never been like on, um, like for example, when in a two foot jumper, that last step before take off, like that's where it happens. And like, so that's not necessarily a landing, but it is a rapid loading, which is whatlandings are, right? If you're doing anything actually athletic, that's what it becomes. And in my experience, too, it's never been like the propulsive side of a movement, you know, or the concentric portion of a movement has never been the issue with jumpers knee, at least in my experience or anyone that I've worked with where it's like, yeah, for example, like if we were doing a seated box jump and they jump onto the box,like they're not going to feel any pain there, which by the way, maybe another, you know, feather in the cap of like where potentially those could be useful if someone's really pissed off a tendon. And that's just on the end of the spectrum that they need to live on for a little while before they can obviously get back to loading the sucker as quickly as possible. But that's, that's interesting. I do think that velocity, because like if you jumped off of a box and it was 18inches high and you have jumpers meet, maybe it does nothing. But if you do a drop jump, you know, up onto another box or you're trying to add height there, you know, and you have to add speed in the loading portion of that movement, that's where it's going to flare up. Yeah.

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Oh, I was going to, I was going to add as well. Sorry, sorry. Sorry, I was going to add as well that

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there's, there's certain velocities with certain, I was going to add as well that there's,

Speaker 1930.5s - 945.26s

there's certain velocities with certain, I mean, you know, if we're talking about different movements along like a velocity spectrum, there's going to be certain movements that don't piss off jumpers near at all. So it's like, it is velocity into a movement and then whether, if that velocity is so high that you spend a certain amount

Speaker 0945.26s - 958.78s

of time in that movement. So let's say you're using like a two foot takeoff. If I chuck a load of speed into it, I'm probably going to spend a little bit more time on the ground because it's harder to use that energy. So when I like supermax, me load, sorry, when I supermax really

Speaker 1958.78s - 1004.18s

bring in like almost too much velocity, you're like, oh shit. And I spend too much time to be exposed to that force in that landing component. And then like you say, you're like, oh shit. And I spend too much time to be exposed to that force in that landing component. And then like you say, your propulsive power is almost to shit anyway. So I guess Jake PERSON is well, a question to you is, especially with a patella, the velocity end of things has got to be really quite high because it's such a short tendon in comparison. If you were to compare it to like the Achilles.So it's going to require a shit ton of speed or a shit ton of flexion. So when you add both, when you add a lot of speed and then you add a lot like, you're like you feel like you're in the bottomof the hole and you can't get out. That's like, that's like disaster one I won shortly for jumpers name in vert commas. Yeah.

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Yeah, that's,'s um one of the issues

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we're talking about tend and stiffness before the day before a seminar and the the issue with that is

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like they they'll say strength training is good ply metrics kind of like inferior whatever but i'm like it's always the it's always the study design or the people are doing or the weeks they're doing it and it's like i'm thinking it's got to be the same with jump and landers knee because a lot of the research is a stationary jump for for jumping like there's just one that comes to mind where they actually had a they called it i think they called it a stop jump which is just like a regular approach two-leg jump and i think the people had that like baby penultimate and they landed like both legs at the same time i don't know if they were standing on a force playeror something to have to do that, you know? So it's like it's not a real world scenario when you're comparing the research jumping to the real world jumping. So I'm like the real world jumping, I think like is crazy high loads and like, and then landing, you always have a way to dissipate the landing where like you could just fall over or you could just like tumble or do something else.So like it doesn't have to because your body doesn't want to put it all into your petal or tendon, especially if there's pain. So it's like you have ways of managing that versus jumping. You don't have as much to like get off the ground. Like less maybe self-organization or variables with the jumping than you would with the landing. Okay. So the we have this groupsans plyometrics and then they see they see matt watson tim riley PERSON doing these great uh plymetrics and it's like let's go uh let's go do some pogos and then you guys see their pogo real where they're just the ugliest pogos in the world they're umatos what you what do you i don't know the percentage of the content. You know what? Let's just say, let's just say 99% of the content. People hopping on the toes like a, what does that look like? Like a bunny? I don't know.Yeah, tell me, uh, tell me why that's bad. We only got, we've only got a small amount of time

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with these people, man. You can only do so much in a short amount of time.

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It is, I mean...

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Sorry, let me stop you. Matt PERSON, you're kind of like the only guy I've...

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Maybe it's because I'm not the curious on the, the Plymetric world, but like, you're the only

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guy that talks about that foot contact and you can see it in your videos how clean that looks

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and everyone else is just doing the Pogo PRODUCT's and it's like, you're just like, you're just

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on the toes, like, on the ends of the toes hopping forward it's because they they still carry inhibition it doesn't matter like

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people ask me what cue should I use to you know to hit the ground in a certain way and it's like

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you don't need fucking cues bro you need you need you know six months of training and then you're

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going to break those inhibitions to be able to actually handle me then giving you a cue to whip your leg into the ground and stabilize effectively, landed a four foot and actually use propulsive tissue.

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So, I mean, I don't mind it.

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Like I always tell people at the end of the seminar, like the first thing you need to do is go away and train for 12 weeks and actually do some plyometrics because, you know, someone like Greg PERSON that turned

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up, like you say, is 270 sort of guy. It's going to take some time for him to, you know,

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build a capacity to deal with landings of velocity. So it doesn't dent me too much because I,

Speaker 01201.52s - 1205.8s

you know, I understand that, but it's always that long game sort of thing.

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I'm trying to educate people to see the value in it. It's just how much value they see in it.

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And you do, like I do get, I've got people that I did seminars with last February.

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And they're doing stuff now and you can really see how well they move now in comparison to the moments that I saw them in the in the seminar but I've also got other people that I look at and I'm like yeah you've not done anything since then and I can see that when you just decide that oh shit I I need to I need something to put on Instagram oh here's some plyometrics to me like shame so that's that's kind of my stance on it. Yeah, I mean, I didn't know what my midfoot was most of my life.

Speaker 21248.72s - 1350.84s

And honestly, shout out David Gray PERSON. Like, you know, I didn't, I didn't become interested. You know, I just wanted, I was just going to jump, you know, and like whatever transpired, transpired. And I think I, you know, I had, I had this long jumping career of always trying to dunk my entire life growing up. I played basketball. Like, you know, I had, I had this long jumping career of always trying to dunk my entire life growing up.I played basketball. Like, you know, I had a large jump catalog more than most people who roll into a seminar on a Saturday in Austin, Texas GPE. And they're like, all right, I'm going to, it's my first time doing Pogo hops, you know, like. So I definitely, but all that's say, like, I think what Matt PERSON said regarding, like, you just kind of have to spend time doing it in order to earn any level of efficiency. And for some people, it's going to take a lot longer. Like, if you don't have a history of jumping or a background of athleticism and you roll into itand you're thinking that you're gonna be able to do single leg hops like Matt in six months, you're incorrect. It's not. I mean, the likelihood of that happening, unless you've just been a genetic sleeper freak your whole life,it's very unlikely. And even myself, like, you know, in my own training, like, you know, a single leg hop with a lot of velocity on it. That shit is very hard. And I do not make it look pretty, you know. But I have athlete to, you know, we make that a priority. And when they first start doing it, it looks like a train wreck.And it doesn't take a ton of pewing necessarily, but a lot of exposure. And they're able to get it. And it looks fine. So.

Speaker 31352.58s - 1391.34s

Yeah, I, we've talked at length about penultimate length, which I guess for a two-leg jumper, that's the wrong term, right? Penultimate is the step before. So if it's two-leg, it's, you know, it's like the plant and then the, you know, but whatever. We all know what, it's like Pogohoffs. We know what we're talking about. The, the, uh, yeah, I don't get, I don't say six months for people because they'll send me videos and it's like the, the, they're planning, their penultimate is right under the rim and then they're jumping becausethey, they just, I'm like, five years. Go jump for five years and your penultimate will lengthen

Speaker 01391.34s - 1398.4s

out. I think that's an inhibition thing though. Maybe there's a different term, but like, I think that's, your brain doesn't want you to carry that much speed onto one leg and then

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plant with the other. So it's literally just, it's like the same, the same queue of, you know,

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you have to drop lower to...

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Like, you have to sink in your penultment to then ride out of your...

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Like, the biomechanics say that you should do that to then come out so you've got a better vertical velocity.

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And I'm like, yeah, that's a well and good saying that, but you tell someone to just bury themselves and it's just... There's so much inhibition in it. Like... And again, if you lengthen a step where it's like nothing like a running stride would be.So if you really push it, you're going to lower your center of gravity anyway. But you're actually being able to do that, like you're saying, like a year, it's probably fucking small. And if you've been, if you've been jumping to a hoop, let's say you're 20, you play basketball for the last six years, you've probably been trying to dunk the whole time. Am I going to reverse what you've been doing? Probably not. Probably not. So we're just going to make the like the traveling velocitythat you got now better and the stiffness of the landing and takeoff better. And yeah, so be it.

Speaker 21460.94s - 1488.9s

You're working with a 12 year old. Sure. To that point, like, I joke with Jake and Dan, like, we'll get DMs from a 35 year old guy who's like, hey, how long will it take me to dunk? And I'm like, have you ever dunk before? And they're like, no, I'm like, never. It's never going to happen. You know, like you've got no fucking shot, dude. Sorry. And it's not like, I mean, you know, is there is there some freak of nature out there who, you know, could do that?

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Of course, I'm not saying it's impossible.

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But the likelihood of you being able to learn the skills and build up the qualities and necessary and the skills within those qualities in your adult life to be able to accomplish

Speaker 11507.12s - 1512.56s

something like that is very unlikely i can guarantee jumpers knee but i can't guarantee a dunk

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six months six months i'll promise you i'll promise you your first dunk and i'll reward you with

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jumpers knee yeah um there was a guy at the seminar.

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He walked up to me and he's like, he's like, Jake PERSON shook my hand.

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He's like, I ran BJP ORG.

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I got my first dunk and then I broke my foot soon after.

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He's like, he's like, I was too powerful for my bones.

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I don't know.

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It was good.

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I guess he was.

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Um, I had, there was another DM I got of a guy that had got his first dunk, I think, after my vertical jump program, and then he got like severe shin splints. And I used that, I used that meme of Thanos PERSON taking the vision stone of like, Thanos wanted jump games and then Vision PRODUCT was the shins, you know? It's worth it.

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A price will be paid.

Speaker 21567.12s - 1576.8s

Oh, that's performance. That's performance right it is it is yeah it is yeah especially if you're just some ordinary uh lad who one day decides

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that this is going to be your new endeavor like it's gonna hurt yeah your um your you're your

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your your thing with uh carrying carrying the horizontal the vertical mat

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it reminds me like you see if people actually try that

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you'll see sometimes that their legs just give out

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and they just keep going down you know and they can't even you know what I'm saying

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like they want to just bury himself yeah they just um

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it reminds me we used to have a rope swing back home where you were way up on this hill

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and you just you just go down and then it had this little thing back up.

Speaker 21605.96s - 1608.7s

And my friend Ian PERSON, he was like skinny fat and never really lifted.

Speaker 31608.82s - 1610.84s

He used to power lift, but like he was just very weak.

Speaker 41611.5s - 1614.9s

He goes like extended arms at the top and then he gets to the bottom.

Speaker 01615.14s - 1616.82s

And because he's extended, he can't control it anymore.

Speaker 41617.18s - 1619.84s

He just goes straight into the water.

Speaker 01621.76s - 1623.46s

That is, that's your next post.

Speaker 31623.74s - 1624.42s

That's your next post.

Speaker 01624.54s - 1625.32s

If you could find that. He's lucky he didn't hit the land. I mean, it was like midnight. It was your next post. That's your next post. If you could find that.

Speaker 41625.9s - 1627.34s

He's lucky he didn't hit the land.

Speaker 01627.42s - 1628.24s

I mean, it was like midnight.

Speaker 31628.34s - 1644.3s

It was pitch blackout. Like he's so lucky he did not hit the land. He would have been in the hospital. But yeah, that's a thing. Like you just, that's, maybe that's a wrong analogy, but like you just cannot control what you're trying to do. And your body just like, it has a way of dissipating it.So it just gives up. And like, there you go.

Speaker 11644.36s - 1651.06s

If you want jumpers knee, if you want jumpers knee, do that. Take too much velocity, try and push your penultimate too much.

Speaker 31651.86s - 1653.98s

And that's it, right?

Speaker 01654.04s - 1659.08s

You're just loading the shit out of the landing. And then being like, oh, I can't get out of that. Yeah.

Speaker 11659.36s - 1660.4s

Go back and try it again.

Speaker 31661s - 1669.78s

It's like, yeah, you don't deserve, you don't deserve a long put ultimate yet, five years, then you will. Um, or, or you never do. I never, I don't,

Speaker 11669.78s - 1674.94s

I still don't have one. My left, my left leg gets a bit longer, but okay, um, when you got to the,

Speaker 31675.78s - 1680.04s

another thing you, when you got to the bounding, um, or maybe those, those more intense,

Speaker 41680.04s - 1683.6s

I don't know, you can probably clear me up on this because I was, I was talking with Greg PERSON and we

Speaker 11683.6s - 1688.16s

had some disagreements of what exactly you said, But you talked a lot about the full foot landing. And

Speaker 31688.16s - 1693.18s

I don't I don't know if you guys have seen people bounding for distance like on the four foot.

Speaker 01693.18s - 1701.04s

And I was just thinking like that's got to be a ton of Achilles. What's the reason why you have a lot of like whole foot landings? Is that it?

Speaker 31702.24s - 1714s

Yeah. Yeah. Well, the big thing is I mean mean, it's structurally and, you know, you're going to, the likelihood is for someone

Speaker 11714s - 1720s

to land on their forefoot and it and it to be like under your hip is so low.

Speaker 31720s - 1723s

It's always out ahead of you.

Speaker 11723s - 1773.96s

So it's like to me, it's like a, it's a form of inhibition. It's like I don't want to deal with this velocity. So I'm going to slow things down. So I'm going to put my foot out in front of me and deal with that force a bit easier and slower. And yeah, and I lose propulsion because of it. So a full foot landing, I can like stack it underneath my hip better.And I'm just going to pull through it faster. The ground contact time is going to be pretty short. And it's going to maintain momentum. Because ultimately, for me, that's what bounding is mostly about, unless you're doing more like accelerator rebounds. And you never see, you in the history of Olympic EVENT triple jumping,you ever see a guy land on their four foot? Hell, no. And they are the best bounders on the planet. And I have no problem with trying to make my athletes look a little bit more like triple jumpers. So yeah, it's a stable and it makes sense to me.

Speaker 21774.58s - 1782s

I've got a story story time. So the last time I saw someone, his name actually Zach PERSON, shout

Speaker 31782s - 1787.86s

out Zach Zillner. This is, this is what I thought. This is what I thought of when we, actually, Zach, shout out Zach Zillner. This is, Tim PERSON, this is what I thought. This is what I thought of when we, yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 21788.28s - 1842.58s

Yeah, if you need B-roll for this, I actually have this recorded on my phone. So me, Daniel Bach, also known as jump science, speed science, and Zach Zilner PERSON, we were going to work out and we were going through a warm up and Dan PERSON was doing these bare barefoot bounds for distance right at the end of the warm-up. And if any of you don't know, Daniel PERSON, he's quite the jumper. It was relatively effortless for him. He was landing using his full foot.Zach PERSON right after him. I know he hadn't bounded and God knows how long, but he's very strong. He's very powerful and he has an athletic background. And he's competitive, which was probably the nail in the coffin. But he goes into these bounds and he's covering a lot of distance. He's getting off the ground real quick.It's entirely on his forefoot. No other part of his foot is touched in the ground and on his very last bound, his left Achilles snap and it sounded like a shotgun going off. And we all knew.

Speaker 01842.78s - 1846.96s

Everyone knew. We all just looked at each other and he just collected his things and left.

Speaker 21850.38s - 1881.02s

But so, yeah, I mean, I see that all the time. And, you know, even a lot of the pro athletes that I get in, like their natural tendency will be to want to get to their forefoot. And from high school to pros, and like unless someone has a track background or has a background of doing a lot of boundor single leg jumping, the tendency is always to creep up towards the front of the foot. Yeah.

Speaker 11881.62s - 1945.52s

The, and the goal for like maintaining, maintaining you know momentum or velocity is that you have to have negative foot speed like you see in a sprint stride and people will say to oh yeah you know but you land on the four foot in a sprint stride but you also then nine a percent of time collapsed to the whole foot anyway so it's like and it's a it's a slightly different unraveling in that you're trying to continue momentum with large propulsion in comparison to stride frequency and stride length. So I always go back to you've gotto be able to whip the leg down into the ground. So if you can't handle that speed and handle it on the forefoot, it's just going to fall apart. So the Achilles side of things, it normally goes like real heavy on that forefoot, dumps to the hill, and that motion there is just jarring as shit. And then boom.Yeah, exactly. As Tim PERSON's animating that, and he's seeing that personally. And I just, I've never seen someone the bounds on their forefoot and actually is relatively fast or displaced as well.

Speaker 21945.7s - 1951.78s

He's not fast. He's, I would say, very, very strong. Yeah. You know, so he was,

Speaker 11951.86s - 1955.92s

there was a good amount of displacement and he was really trying real hard, you know,

Speaker 21956.44s - 1966.48s

but his foot was as rigid as could possibly be. And like you said, yeah, that heel dropped and the back of his leg elongated and it just yeah it just got deleted

Speaker 11967.12s - 1971.68s

jake do you do you see any do you see any thinking like people that are super strong that are

Speaker 21971.68s - 1977.76s

able to like actually rupture something like in achilles because they're so strong but don't do

Speaker 11977.76s - 1985.42s

the dynamic side of things do i mean like was he strong he was so strong he's like relatively strong enough to be able to put something through the ground,

Speaker 31985.54s - 2047.38s

but not handle it, like dynamic, the dynamic speed of that loading. I had that talk with, oh, yeah. Oh, Tim PERSON, that's directed at me. Come on. Um, I had that talk with a couple of guys, NFL ORG, like, or maybe just one. Yeah, one NFL ORG strength coach.And I was like like we were talking about that idea that you all the weight room stuff strength in the hips and the knees you know you're super strong there you're forced up but to so high and then I'm like does that leave the ankle like quote unquote detrained and I was like that's kind of a good and then he was like um no because he's like look at the volumes these guys are on the field. Uh, all of the skills training they're doing, the reps they get of store and released with the Achilles and the ankle.And I'm like, uh, I was like, oh, I guess that's before that little, uh, short conversation, I was kind of thinking, I mean, I play both sides, but I'm like, because I'm not there seeing it, I'm just like, is that really a thing? But it's like, well, these guys, if anything, are probably doing too much. Um, but your, your story of the, the, the, the

Speaker 02047.38s - 2052s

weight room guys that would then go try to do something dynamic. I'm just like, yeah,

Speaker 32052.12s - 2072.68s

you're just setting himself up for a tendonopathy, hopefully a tendonopathy, uh, maybe a tendon rupture. Um, because it's just like you haven't, I mean, yeah, if you never do it, it's going to, you're going to get it somewhere. And the older you are, the more likely is probably going to run into your Achilles. So it's just like, it's probably like your phrase, what is it, the hopping, hopping stays in year round.

Speaker 22072.86s - 2074.4s

It's like, just people need to.

Speaker 42074.46s - 2075.52s

Hops never leave the program.

Speaker 22075.62s - 2078.94s

Hops never leave the program. Yeah. Remember that one. Yeah.

Speaker 32080.56s - 2085.22s

And it's like the hindsight thing is 20, when they're like,

Speaker 02086.2s - 2094.16s

they rupture their tendon, they're going to be like, oh yeah, it's because I hadn't played in five years. It's like, well,it would have been nice that you could have been aware of that in the first place.

Speaker 32096.58s - 2100.04s

But it's your tendon and not mine, so I don't really care that much.

Speaker 12100.8s - 2110.3s

Do you know what? I was going to say your content at the moment is freaking me out from trying new sports. I'm just like, I'm just going to fucking blow something cup. I'm like prime age. I'm like, I was thinking.

Speaker 32111.3s - 2116.46s

Well, I think they must have a lot more with this pickleball stuff. I'm guessing they got a lot more.

Speaker 12116.46s - 2118.18s

I see it all the time. Yeah.

Speaker 22118.26s - 2128.44s

We've got a pickleball here, court here at the gym. And so there's and it's's it seems like regardless of age group people are just

Speaker 12128.44s - 2134s

blowing achilles tendons out left and right all the time someone who frequents our gym here he's

Speaker 22134s - 2141.44s

early 30s ruptured his Achilles ceiling playing pickleball like this is not we're not talking basketball

Speaker 32141.44s - 2145.44s

or soccer or anything where it's like there's a you would expect a

Speaker 22145.44s - 2151.76s

ton of dynamic loading or i think it's the deceleration it's the like short cut in and out it's so like

Speaker 12151.76s - 2161.92s

it's like chuck your foot forward chuck it back it's like just real quick in and out movements whereas in basketball you might float around a little bit more there's like so many small little

Speaker 02161.92s - 2168.66s

movements and i'm wondering it's i tell you what it's a market right now. You could be mopping up as a rehab. I'll be like,

Speaker 12168.72s - 2174.74s

I'll be the pickleball rehabber or like the pickle, pickle ball. Like is there is there a pickleball

Speaker 22174.74s - 2183.22s

strength coach, IG handle? Right now. Does anyone got that yet? Yeah, just start like hitting on all

Speaker 12183.22s - 2187.86s

these little knee sports and give them the same exact program because it'll all work.

Speaker 32189.2s - 2196.9s

Yeah, I've been, Greg PERSON and I speculated quite a bit on that and I'm like you get the, I think a lot of these things are late.

Speaker 22196.9s - 2204.26s

Earlier, I don't know if Matt PERSON, you were talking about the, you're talking about the people that the hip extent, the knee extension before hip extension thing.

Speaker 12204.68s - 2205.52s

And I'm like that, I think that has everything to do with those Achilles tears because you see it when the leg is that the hip extent, the knee extension before hip extension thing. And I'm like that,

Speaker 32205.58s - 2207.78s

I think that has everything to do with those Achilles tears

Speaker 42207.78s - 2209.58s

because you see it when the leg is,

Speaker 22209.74s - 2211.34s

the false step, the leg's going back,

Speaker 42211.62s - 2212.54s

and the knee straightens.

Speaker 32212.84s - 2214.92s

And it's like the knee shouldn't be straightening.

Speaker 42215.06s - 2215.88s

You should be in a more,

Speaker 02216.64s - 2218.18s

maybe more like squatted position.

Speaker 42218.38s - 2220.16s

And then I was thinking of the DBs,

Speaker 02220.2s - 2245.62s

like why DBs don't do it more. Even like you're playing defense in basketball, why don't you do it more? And I think that's because you're never, you're not standing up straight when you're you do it more and i think that's because you're never you're not standing up straight when you're playing defense like that when you're doing those stepbacks you're not standing up straight even when you're going to do a shoot the basketball with a step back you're never really in that completely upright position you'rekind of a little bit squatted so it's like just having a knee bend is is so protective of uh the rupturing the a Ach. And I don't know.

Speaker 42245.62s - 2265.2s

It's yeah. And then as you get older, you're out of shape, you're lazy. There's no way you can even handle having a knee bend. You're just standing up straight type person. So yeah, the, those bow-mechanics, very important. It's just like how much, how much do you need to do to ingrain that when someone's

Speaker 32265.2s - 2303.26s

lost it, you know, but probably has a lot to do with also the foot pressure because those, those, well, yeah, I would think I would think that'd be kind of like, I think if there's those, the way you strike the foot, um, if someone could get very good at that, you're not going to be in positions of knee extension, uh, before hip extension, you know? Yeah. So it's like, I mean, it just, it all comes back to the in positions of knee extension before hip extension, you know? Yeah. So it's like, I mean, it just, it all comes back to the common sense of like good, good training.It's going to be protective. So, yeah, you could sell an Achilles rupture prevention and give the same stuff you give for just a ply metric cheat coat. Start marketing cheat code as Achilles, Achilles prevention.

Speaker 42307.94s - 2318.02s

Yeah. Okay. So in the, in the talk, Matt, you had a video, I think it was of Usain Bolt PERSON and you were saying how there's not much when he has a foot contact, not much eccentric, concentric at the muscle, uh, like more isometric.

Speaker 02318.02s - 2328.44s

I'm curious what you guys think is happening in someone who's a peasant. What is happening? They can't,

Speaker 32328.52s - 2340.38s

they can't do that. They can't be as so much. So what do you guys think is happening when they're, like what's happening muscle tendon wise? Do you know what? There is, it's a strange one because I

Speaker 12340.38s - 2471.36s

think that there, there are some scenarios. So like, let's go back to Zach PERSON rapture, rupturing his Achilles, right? I wonder if a lot of people get, like, shin issues because, like, they might land on a forefoot and their, like, their lower leg muscles are, like, hanging on for dear life isometrically, trying to be, like, remain stiff, remain stiff, remain stiff. But actually actually forces are obviously put on them and they cannot deal with it and they're like hanging on for their lifeisometrically but actually it just starts to create this eccentric lengthening. And I always tell people that when you have shin issues, it feels sometimes when you land like your Salinas is being like wrung out. It literally feels like it is and it feels like that after it just feels so flat. And I don't know. I think that there's like there is obviously a like a fighting eccentric kind of way to it. Whereas someone that's maybe got a better capacity to do it is obviously either able to manage thingsisometrically or even someone that's like sub-a-leet and it's not perfectly isometrically held and the Achilles lengthens. I think that there is just a bit more of a passive stretch to things rather than it being like I'm fighting tension with tension. I think that's where shit gets ruptured. Like you said, with the knee straightening, right? The calf length is at max.So there's a lot of tension through that length. And there's also tension being pulled from the heel dropping. So I wonder if that also happens. And is the reason why, yeah, peasants. Yeah, it's weird. I think that there's maybe an initial hang on to being like oh i can create this stiffness but actually no fucking way can i um so is that the same of all movement though i don't know it's just a weird way you know maybe i'mjust phrasing it in a certain way but it kind of seems that way and it feels like that when i've done like new movements and i'm like holy shit i'm a peasant at this. Yeah, I think it comes a lot, like some of the stuff that we've kind of

Speaker 22471.36s - 2607.12s

already touched on where it's like there's just, when you're talking about a peasant, there's an inability, inability almost always. Like what are the, what are the characteristics of a peasant? There's an inability to coordinate well, almost always, right you walk in the door you know you know when you see one and if you don't know when they walk in the door just wait for them to pick up the ball or to try and make the cut or you say do this and then they try and do that and they can't even get anywhere near the ballpark so there's this there's this inability to to consciously and subconsciously coordinate in a manner that's efficient or effective.And then you can start getting into like specific qualities where it's just like, you know, and are they even strong enough? Just like first things first. Like is there a base level of strength to be able to resist or to use what it is that they're capable of or like to resist something from happening? Probably not. You know? And so you kind of end up with this smorgasbord of lack of coordination, lack of efficient movement, tons of inhibition, and just being weak as fuck. And all those things together sort of make up a peasant pie. And so, yeah, like, I think it's hard to say if it's like any one thing.Like I think if peasantry lives on a spectrum and all of those things are along the lines of the spectrum, and all of those things are along the lines of the spectrum, any amount of those things can be higher or lower in any level. I think peak peasantry is just the highest expression of a lack of all of those qualities. And then you just end up with, you know, someone who, and what does that look like? It's like someone who has never tried to do anything physically challenging that when they go outside and it gets hot, they complain about the fact that they're sweating and that makes them uncomfortable. And they probably are an armchair quarterback and say things like I could have made that throw.Well, no, you can't. So I hope that, did adequately adequately answer that question or

Speaker 32607.12s - 2648.18s

did none of it make sense yeah i'm wondering if you guys have experienced that when we talk about that inhibition that's what i think with those the like their outputs are so low but um so their outputs are so low so i'm like could they even um now yeah could they even let's go pateller because kill it can happen anyway can they even like get a tendonopathy in their pateller or can they even now yeah could they even let's go patella because kill you can happen anyway can they even like get a tendonopathy in their patella or can they even rupture their patella because there's no output there at all and they're so in so much inhibition so i'm thinking even if you took that kidwho has no outputs you like all right run into this jump and then jump as high as you can it's like sometimes they're just give out their legs would just just give out and, like, they'll fall. And, like, I've had, I don't know if you guys have had that, but I've had jumps where, like, I'm going to dunk.

Speaker 02648.68s - 2649.6s

And I get a good approach.

Speaker 42649.8s - 2651.56s

And it's like, my knees just give out.

Speaker 02651.94s - 2653.84s

And I just keep going forward into the wall.

Speaker 32654.48s - 2668.94s

What do you, that's what I think it is is my, I don't have the ability. Like, I was in, I had inhibition in that moment, which protected me from rupturing something, which is a good thing. That's what I think it is. What do you guys think that is? I don't know if you see that single leg,

Speaker 02669.02s - 2671.84s

Matt PERSON, you probably, is that a single leg jump thing that happens to people?

Speaker 12673.54s - 2694.36s

Yeah, you don't, you don't soften. You like, you let off. You just, you just put your other foot down. That's normally, if you, you see it in in the long triple and high jump, triple jump massively. Like someone goes to put their foot down and they just rapidly put the other leg down because they're like no fucking way. Can I deal with that?

Speaker 02694.48s - 2696.4s

So it's like you don't soften.

Speaker 12696.58s - 2780.4s

You just, you take the foot off almost. That makes sense. And it's so funny because I look at certain people like ultimate peasantry is just such a great phrase but or peasant pie but what's what's so funny is that so I did a little I did a little post the other week on like the Golgi Tendan organ and I'm like people talk about this all the time I'm like I'm actually going to like do a little more digging I'm like it's it's it's a little, I did a little post the other week on like the Golgi Tend organ PRODUCT. And I'm like, people talk about this all the time. I'm like, I'm actually going to like do a little more digging.I'm like, it's a reflexive response. And I'm not even sure peasants have a reflexive response to inhibition sometimes. Like they don't even have the reflexes to in to give themselves inhibition. So it's just like these guys just fall over. Like it's not even like, it's not even like you soften at the knee it's just like complete like wet noodle shit they just have nothing and yeah it's it's it's it's funny it's so funny but yeah the single leg stuff is is normally you justrun through a bell through um but yeah i dude I've been there with the two foot stuff. When I've been like a single leg jump and I'm like, oh, I'm going to try and jump for this off two feet. Oh my God. I just, my knees just keep traveling forward. They don't stop to hit that vertical point. And then for me to go upwards, I just keep going forward with my knees. And I'm like, oh, shit. Yeah, I'm just going to.

Speaker 22780.8s - 2786.74s

Matt, you're a natural. You're more naturally a one foot jumper. Does that come

Speaker 12786.74s - 2793.04s

more natural to you than two? Yeah, wholeheartedly. Yeah, I'm, I'd imagine you being a high jumper,

Speaker 22793.04s - 2800.68s

but I thought I'd ask. I'm a jump onto my two feet. So I, I've got a video of me box jumping in

Speaker 12800.68s - 2813.22s

2010. It's a pretty big box jump, but it's so funny because I, what do I do? I go, so a right foot penultimate and I basically plant two foot at the same time.

Speaker 22813.22s - 2817.06s

Same time. But if you watch my penultimate, I actually hardly touch the floor.

Speaker 12817.82s - 2841.36s

So I like basically just carry speed through. I just tap my foot down and then go, boom, two foot exactly the same time. Yeah. So, but again, it's just about, like, I create force like that. So I'm definitely not going to bend my knees. Fuck that.That gave me, like, trying to do like a one to take off. In COVID, I was just pissing around with it. And it gave me a sore knee. And I was like, well, not going to do that.

Speaker 32841.86s - 2842.48s

Never again.

Speaker 22843.02s - 2844.52s

Yeah, just single legs fine for me.

Speaker 32845.6s - 2848.54s

Tim PERSON, you've had a, you've had to give out?

Speaker 12849.92s - 2850.24s

Yes.

Speaker 32850.24s - 2851s

The approach, yeah.

Speaker 12851.76s - 2852.2s

Absolutely.

Speaker 32852.4s - 2853.02s

What do you make of it?

Speaker 22853.14s - 2971.38s

Yeah. For me, like velocity keeps coming up. It's too much velocity. If I come in way too fucking hot and I'm able to, because usually like, if I'm coming in real hot and I'm going in for dunk, I'll naturally slow down and like stutter. I'll do a stutter step as a way to prevent, to align my timing and to slow down so that I canget into the positions that I like to get into to be able to produce adequate force to accomplish, you know, the baby windmill or whatever. But when I, you know, like, it'll happen to me like in game or something where it's like I'm like, you know, and at times, like I intentionally try and push the speed where it's like, you know, it's nice to be able to have that quality. And if you can't, especially if you're trying to dunk in game, so this is going to be a hyper-specific example.But if you dunk like I dunk, you're not likely going to get a lot of endgame dunks because it's just too slow. It is. It's too slow. And so what I'll do in my training is like at times I'll try and move into the dunk as quickly as I can while still being able to complete the dunk. And inherently in that process, I find I'm like, nope, not happening. And I end up, you know, not like falling to the floor, but it's like I get like this quarter jump thing where it's like the jump doesn't actually occur at all and I have to bail, you know, because I'm actively trying. And then the times where it becomes like scarier, it's like, oh shit, you know, and I canhave a laugh about it. It's like in game where it's like I thought I was going to be a little bit better of an athlete than I actually am. And I brought a lot of speed into this thing, and my body just said absolutely not. You're 33 years old at lifetime, you know?

Speaker 12974.14s - 3031.22s

Isn't that, by the way, going back to the like the phenomenal chat, it always makes you laugh. It's like, it's like our goal for the penultimate is to push us onto the takeoff faster, right? It's to carry more momentum to send vertically. But everyone tries to carry more speed and then they try to push a penultimate. And what happens is you just slow this shit down.If you were to actually measure your traveling velocity into it, you'd probably be slower than if you just chill, just roll through it. Just see how you get like, you know. And that's such a good point as well. Like I think about it sometimes, I'm like, should you be doing just out and out dunk sessions or might you be better if you want like a more explosive like fast, velocity base kind of take off? If you were just trying to do it in like pick up basketball, that's just that's your dunk session. That's all you got. You've got 10 attempts today. Got like grab the highest rebound in the same way that's your dunk session. That's all you got. You've got 10 attempts today.Got like grab the highest rebound in the same way that you would dunk or try and dunk a ball. Obviously it's all scenario base,

Speaker 03031.3s - 3035.3s

but like it forces you to be quick because you can't be, you can't be, you can't be?

Speaker 23036.3s - 3037.18s

You know what's helped?

Speaker 13038.76s - 3039.18s

Sorry,

Speaker 23039.18s - 3083.98s

sorry, Matt PERSON. What I was going to say is what's helped me a lot with what you're talking about with trying to remove some of that is some of the stuff that Bobby PERSON talks about and just like embracing the fall into it and like even like starting from the top of the key and doing a falling start or likestarting you know with like the basketball on the floor or whatever and picking it up and then it's like you have no choice but to continue to accelerate into it. That's usually like a good place to start. But to your point, like it's just so tough in game because it is so scenario based. And like unless you have already developed the ability to bring speed into that jump,

Speaker 43084.52s - 3090.36s

the likelihood of you being able to even begin to replicate that in a game, even if you're not going up for a dunk attempt,

Speaker 23090.36s - 3105.32s

is so unlikely because there's defenders and moving parts. And it almost, it's like you have to, that quality has to be developed already before you can actually bring that level of speed into an endgame situation.

Speaker 33106.4s - 3107.12s

Makes sense.

Speaker 13107.84s - 3115.9s

The way around all that need for all that, play half court and just jump so high vertically.

Speaker 33117.38s - 3118.64s

You'll be fine.

Speaker 13120.2s - 3123.22s

All you need is a drop step and you got a 50 inch overt.

Speaker 33123.42s - 3124.1s

You can dunk on someone.

Speaker 13125.24s - 3125.82s

No problem.

Speaker 33126.18s - 3126.36s

Yep.

Speaker 43126.98s - 3129s

Just don't play full court and don't ever jump at speed.

Speaker 33130.74s - 3137.42s

Going back on this, this bounding on the forefoot, there's that one guy, Nick Brizz PERSON. You guys remember him around COVID time? Yeah.

Speaker 13137.6s - 3142.12s

Nick Brizz PERSON, he was a guy who would dunk, I think, off his left foot and his heel wouldn't touch.

Speaker 33142.78s - 3144.56s

Like he would, he had a single leg takeoff.

Speaker 23144.56s - 3147.96s

That's the guy that would like dunk from the free throw line, the little fella?

Speaker 13148.12s - 3148.88s

I think so.

Speaker 23149s - 3149.9s

He would get in fights on it.

Speaker 33150.18s - 3150.32s

Yeah.

Speaker 13150.42s - 3150.56s

Yeah.

Speaker 33150.72s - 3151.16s

Yeah.

Speaker 13151.16s - 3156.9s

He does now like, it's like YouTube like basically three on three and we end up, you know,

Speaker 33157.1s - 3159.26s

killing each other after it, like trying to beat each other up.

Speaker 13159.38s - 3160.14s

So it's all like trash.

Speaker 23160.14s - 3166.06s

Oh, he like rolls up to pick up games with like a camera and stuff and just like tries to clown on people.

Speaker 13166.06s - 3166.56s

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 33167.02s - 3169.28s

You must have like I'm thinking he must got him right here.

Speaker 13169.5s - 3173.8s

He must have like a five times the size Achilles PERSON than normal human.

Speaker 33174.72s - 3177.1s

So so interesting anecdote.

Speaker 13177.76s - 3179.06s

Well, not anecdote, just fact.

Speaker 23180.14s - 3188.48s

The 2016 Olympic high jump champion, Derek Druin PERSON, doesn't put his hill down on a takeoff.

Speaker 13189.12s - 3194.12s

And he jumped over eight feet and a half inch, I think.

Speaker 33194.8s - 3211.74s

And I have always crudely thought that that's the evolution of a high jumping event. Why it's different to how you would look at bounding. Well, actually, it's kind of the same.

Speaker 13212.28s - 3269.2s

But what you have in high jump is that you have this different to, it's different to dunking, but it's actually how Nick Brze PERSON kind of takes off. He doesn't put his foot out in front of him and then have like a vertical torso with the leg out in front. He'll get his hips out ahead of him like a high jumper and you see him over rotate quite a lot. You see him come down from a dunk and he he struggles with trick dunks because he's moving so fast. So again, that's also a component. So if you've got a point two takeoff for abounding motion, but you look at someone like Derek Druin who jumps eight feet, his takeoff is 0.13. That's like a long jump takeoff. So you have to have a takeoff that is very fast to be able. It's kind of chicken the egg. It's like you've got to have the speed on the ground, but you've also, you know, you've got to have the structural capacity to deal with that as well. So I don't know what comes first, whether it's, I'm actually just going to train to jump fast or whether I'm just fast anyway.

Speaker 03269.8s - 3274.16s

But if he spent two or three hundredths of a second longer on the ground,

Speaker 13274.2s - 3340.9s

it probably just wouldn't work out. It's probably also why he was so injury riddled and didn't really have much of a career after it because he probably missed a couple. So it's far more complex when you're trying to make everything a lot more finite and smaller. But Jordan Wessner PERSON is another one. High jumper does a bit of dunking, can dunk from behind the free front line.But you look at his takeoff. It's quite high up on the forefoot. It's hill, may you could like maybe slot a credit card behind it. But look at the positions and how he stacks the body. Hips are in line with torso, thigh and shin right through to like the point of his toe into the ground. Everything gives like a straight line.And that says to me that he can like pivot over the top of it easier. If he had a kink at his hip, then the loading is just going to, it's just going to bomb through that and his hill's going to drop. And then he's got a completely different takeoff. So, yeah, that's, it's great because I genuinely think it's the evolution of jumping high, is being able to maintain it on more of a forefoot. But yeah, I'm just not sure we're evolved to that yet.

Speaker 33341.94s - 3368.22s

Yeah. All right. Back to something something you said something you said in the uh seminar you were saying that uh basically it doesn't matter if you're your day one or your your elite you're still doing the tier one i forget the what was the term light tier you're still doing a light tier um what if you what if they what kind of implications do you think if someone is not doing that?

Speaker 13369.96s - 3497.36s

I mean, it's like, first of all, if you, like, it's like the starting point of every session. Like you just start with a lighter form of movement. And it's just strange. I see people that will do like, they're like, oh, I'm doing like really intense pyometrics today. I'm doing like depth jumps. And they do nothing but like just like a basic sprint drill warm up and then going depth jump.And I'm like, I don't know. Like there's, there's a few skills to be kind of brought in there with doing some light to stuff. Like, you know, freshen up.Let's feel some of those mechanics. Sequence things a bit better. But there's, let's feel some of those mechanics, sequence things a bit better. But there's, there's a lot to be said, like, in my opinion, with like lower leg development. I just don't think that you can get enough exposure, like the basically the more rudimentary the movement becomes, obviously the higher the volume is. And I think there's a fine line where you can, it can be kind of very lot,kind of in between light and submaximal work where you can get a shit ton of volume and actually start to improve tissue, tissue like capacity and thickness and, yeah, and a capacity to move further up the chain. And also,as soon as you get an injury, I think you need to relearn how to land, especially to the lower leg. Come back from anything traumatic, you rupture in Achilles, you're going to need to learn where the ground is again. So keeping in like great pro-boreceptive awareness is fundamental, knowing where your foot is and where the ground is. I had that, I remember as a kid, like I was probably like six foot at the age of 13 and just like massive growth spurts and just not know where my feet were. And I just think, fuck, if I had just done like some low level amplitude stuff in different directions, it's just a good stimulus for me to learn where my feet are, how to deal with gravity and how to like couple energy well. So I could go on and on about light stuff, but I think ultimatelyit's it's just a way to improve lower leg capacities to handle potential higher overloads because

Speaker 23497.36s - 3624.96s

of the volume you can do. Yeah, I think everything Matt PERSON said plus like a principle that seems to be an overarching theme in the body and adaptation is like it's really hard to develop structure with low exposure. You need a lot of reps to develop structure and capacity, whether that be like jumping ability or hypertrophy or whatever like more reps more exposure more frequently more structure and you know if you're thinking about it in like a periodized way or a real you know and i don't really necessarily love this analogy but like you know sort of like creatingthe foundation for a house like we've we talked a lot about how important it is to have, if you're the 35-year-old guy who wants to dunk a basketball, but you don't have this library of jump variety and experience, like you've probably got no chance. And like a way to build up that capacity over any considerable period of time and all the, you know, muscles and tendons of the lowerleg and foot, like getting those light tier jumps in two to three times a week, a lot of contacts with a lot of intention. Like, that's how you do it. And I think, like, you look at people who are, like, really good, one foot jumpers a lot of times what I noticed I'll see like I have a kid he's he plays quarterback and two foot jumper he's shit his vertical shit but he his vert off two feet is 28 inches. Okay. His approach jump off one foot is 36 inches. And he is terrible in acceleration, but one thing that he is really good at is long distance running,where he's accumulating all of these ground contact times.

Speaker 13624.96s - 3630.44s

And I do see a correlation between people who have a like a history or a background of longer

Speaker 23630.44s - 3662.7s

distance running, closing the gap on the discrepancy between like their ability to jump off one foot and jump off two feet. And whether it's long distance running or whether it's a lot of light tier work, which I would prefer, like building up that capacity of the foot interacting with the ground over and over and over and over again. There is no replacement for that in terms of building up that base of the ability to create structure. And then you can build on that. Yeah, if you're that, if you're that 35 year old

Speaker 33662.7s - 3703.58s

that wants to dunk, you better start getting your six months of towee Pogoopson. Start today. Start today. So, Matt, one thing in that talk, I think earlier on Instagram ORG, too, you're saying climatic progressions, like you kind of saying, you don't, what was your replacement? You'll get into that. But you don't really believein the plyometric progressions. You're like, the ping tier, the highest intensity, like you can do that from the jump just at maybelike a lower volume. Yeah. So do you look at, because in the plio world that's like extensive to intensive, that's how everyone does,extensive is going to prepare you for intensive.

Speaker 03704.18s - 3709.42s

But do you think that's really happening? Is extensive preparing you for intensive?

Speaker 43711.04s - 3716.88s

I'm like, I don't know if it is. Yeah. I don't think it is. I don't, I'm like, they seem so different.

Speaker 03718.16s - 3727.64s

Yeah. I mean, like we talk about like the structural support that the the light stuff brings you and the like submaxical stuff brings you.

Speaker 33727.76s - 3730.76s

But if you're not doing the intense stuff, it's fucking useless.

Speaker 13732.26s - 3738.24s

You got a, you got to push the envelope because it's just so different when you get to,

Speaker 33738.78s - 3742.04s

you know, we got to like max intense hopping.

Speaker 03742.22s - 3743.04s

Didn't we?

Speaker 13743.04s - 3889.44s

We tried at the seminar. People are like, holy shit. Like, that's what that feels like. And you're like, yeah, like, that's, that's a maximal intent form of movement. And it brings about so much more with regards to like muscular stiffness. Just the, just the rate in which you just pull on tissue.It's just, it's just eye watering like that sort of velocity. When you, when you are actually really trying to hit the ground. And you said it, Tim PERSON, didn't you? You said, I was hopping loads last year and then I took a couple months off. And then I'm like, shit, like, that's really obvious at how much inhibitions now come back in, where I don't want to have to deal with whipping that leg into the ground. So, so going to the, um, the plyometricprogression, it's, it's all kind of, it all sounds too good to be true. It's, it's, it's learn to land, learn to take off, do the full sequence in a sound, sublimatric fashion and build the physical capacity of being able to do it. And I'm just like, just learn the skills straight away and just gradually ramp it up. And ultimately you've got to do intense movements at the same time of year that you're doing extensive movements. do intense movements at the same time of year that you're doing extensive movements.You just do more of one and less of the other and then flip it in other periods of time. So yeah, they have to go hand in hand. You can't do extensive to intensive. It's the long to short versions of a speed program, which, you know, Charlie France PERSON has debunked in like the 90s. It's like you can't run 400s and then expect to be a good 60 meter runner because it doesn't really make that much sense because you get to the fast stuff and you know, Charlie Francis debunked in like the 90s. It's like you can't run 400s and then expect to be a good 60 meter runner because it doesn't really make that much sense because you get to the fast stuff and you're like,oh shit, we've got three months to be fast. You're like, no, why don't we just be fast all year long and, you know, and constantly expose ourselves to crazy speeds because we all understand the differences between running 70% and then doing a flat out speed session. But the stimulus is just unfathom then doing a flat-out speed session. But the stimulus is just unfathomable to compare both of those.So that's where I sit with it. The blithers. And do you know why people continue to do it? Because they don't fucking try it themselves. They don't know what it feels like to expose themselves to a highly intense biometric. That's, you know, one-on-rural with it.

Speaker 33889.88s - 3892.52s

Tim PERSON.

Speaker 13894.14s - 3894.24s

Can you ask the question again?

Speaker 23896.44s - 3899.38s

Because I was kind of locked in on what Matt PERSON was saying, and I totally, I'm not sure what the question was.

Speaker 33899.84s - 3902.68s

The question was, I forgot the question for two seconds, too, after,

Speaker 13903.02s - 3910.26s

but I have, see, lucky I have notes right here that I did not send you guys um extensive to intensive that whole idea that you do extensive

Speaker 23910.26s - 3914.22s

for three months and now you're ready for intensive but i'm like i don't know if that really

Speaker 33914.22s - 3920.16s

works and uh yeah so yeah like everything i just said about like building capacity and like you know

Speaker 23920.16s - 3952.16s

uh having variety and like all of that stuff it it's vital. It's important. And like to not have it is a problem. But it in the same breath, like that's not going to make you a better athlete, real like not really like that. All that stuff like it's just, it's a good base to have. I think one thing Matt PERSON said during the seminar that i it kind of made me rethink some of the things i do he was like i'm matt correct me if i'm wrong but i believe it was you

Speaker 43952.16s - 3959.2s

talking about death jumps or drop jumps and how you were like you mentioned that you're like

Speaker 23959.2s - 4037.16s

i see people doing drop jumps with all these athletes and I know Olympic level athletes who aren't prepared for them. And I was, and to me, I'm thinking, shit, I've got all my athletes doing that all the time, you know? And, you know, like, so what is he seeing that I'm not seeing? But, yeah, like, I don't think of it as like this spectrum where it's like linear, where you like you start with one and then end up with one.Like you have to be, you have to be getting exposure to all of it. And Matt PERSON's summated it perfectly where it's like based on what you're trying to accomplish or what's most important, like that's where you can pull the levers and toggle how much volume and how much intensity you're getting out of one variation relative to some of the other tiers and their variations. But yeah, since that came up, Matt, Jake PERSON, I'm going to ask a question on your podcast. Can you dive in a little bit more about that? Because that was, you know, it was like one of those things that happened quickly.And by the end of the seminar, people were asking me questions. And I didn't want to be there anymore. I wanted to go home. I wasn't going to ask you another question. But now that we're here, can you talk about that?

Speaker 14037.7s - 4039.6s

With regards to the depth jumps. Yeah.

Speaker 24041.56s - 4052.02s

I mean, I always go back to most people are really shit at standing on top of a box in a passive manner, stepping off and then being like, go.

Speaker 14053.6s - 4065.14s

It's a pretty learned skill, whereas a hell of a lot more people are really good at starting to jump and take off and landing take off, landing take off.

Speaker 44065.22s - 4069.82s

That's why a 10-5 or Scandinavian NORP jump test is actually a really good measuring comparison

Speaker 14069.82s - 4071.08s

to like a one-off depth jump.

Speaker 04071.38s - 4072.34s

It's 99% of the time.

Speaker 14072.42s - 4101.86s

You just miss it. It takes like four reps to get going. If you were to say that in an acceleration, your first step felt the best, you're lying. Like four or five strides out. You're like, bum, bump, bump. And you're like, now I'm getting it. Now I'm getting it. And then when you're in max velocity, it's like, dude, this're lying. Like four or five strides out, you're like, bum, bum, bump, and you're like, okay, now I'm getting it. Now I'm getting it. And then when you're inmax velocity, it's like, dude, this feels great. Because you get, you get into a rhythm. And rhythm is, it's synonymous, I think, with good output. Um, no one ever says in sport that they felt out of sync, but we're actually sending it in what they're trying to do. Do you know what I

Speaker 24101.86s - 4106.2s

mean? Like, it just doesn't make sense. Yeah, felt like shit when I set that world record said no one is ever.

Speaker 14106.58s - 4151.16s

Right. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So that's normally where I go with it. So I'll, you know, I'll typically, typically use like a, it's just a leap for height or a pogo hop for height in Tim PERSON's world.And if I've got to augment, if I've got to augment something, then okay, I bring in a box. But actually, the amount of people that I actually have to augment jump height for, like put them off of a box that they can't create in terms of like jump height displacement, it's pretty small. It's pretty small. You can, you can just get so much out of really just sending like very intense plymetrics

Speaker 04151.16s - 4161.48s

on the spot or on the go. And yeah, we kind of put that like, I don't know, we said it as the mecca of all

Speaker 14161.48s - 4194.38s

plyometrics as to fall off of boxes. And I still think that we kind of forget that it was created in a, in a situation where there wasn't much room to do things because it was fucking minus 40 outside. And they were in a shed trying to, trying to stimulate the athletes that they were training. So it's like, we could, we could just be using movement on the go.You could just be hopping for distance. and you probably would get a similar stimulus. So, yeah, that's why I normally attack about that. Yeah.

Speaker 34194.88s - 4195.84s

I don't know if that helps you.

Speaker 14196.62s - 4200.22s

To confirm that this was a depth jump, not just a depth landing.

Speaker 34204.52s - 4206.82s

Yeah, yeah, Tim PERSON, you were talking about depth jumping, yeah?

Speaker 14206.88s - 4209.34s

Or drop jumping, sorry, from like a drop jump.

Speaker 34209.34s - 4209.36s

Drop jump.

Speaker 14209.36s - 4210.36s

Yeah.

Speaker 34210.96s - 4211.2s

Yeah.

Speaker 04212.12s - 4215.14s

So depth jumping is, okay, slightly different domain in that, right?

Speaker 34215.2s - 4219.9s

We've got like a deeper position for landing, the stimulator from a higher box, drop jump.

Speaker 04219.96s - 4225.72s

We're looking at Bosco's idea of, you know, 50, 50 centimeters or whatever that is in Americanisms NORP,

Speaker 34226.32s - 4229.62s

relative height and trying to get off the ground as fast as possible.

Speaker 04230.82s - 4233.34s

Well, that's not even what I was talking about.

Speaker 34233.38s - 4236.42s

I was talking about the depth, the depth landing.

Speaker 04236.62s - 4237.36s

You see people do that now?

Speaker 14237.44s - 4239.36s

They go on a high box and they land on like a force.

Speaker 34239.36s - 4241.64s

Yeah, like the altitude.

Speaker 24241.88s - 4243.2s

Yeah.

Speaker 34243.2s - 4243.52s

Yeah.

Speaker 24243.72s - 4244.94s

But that's not what you guys talking about.

Speaker 14248.18s - 4256.92s

Yeah. What's his name? The, the guy he does parkour. I think his name's Chris Scott PERSON. Yeah. Oh yeah. But holy shit. There's a,

Speaker 24256.92s - 4263.6s

you want to talk about eliminating some inhibition. I mean, my God. There's a, there's a, there's an

Speaker 14263.6s - 4265.18s

Argentinian kid called Lambo PERSON,

Speaker 24265.44s - 4268.12s

and I'm not sure he speaks much English LANGUAGE, and he's a parkour guy,

Speaker 14268.22s - 4285.32s

and he, like, hangs from a bridge on one of his videos and drops. It must be, easily, he's got to be 30 feet up, and he just, he hits a landing. His ass goes into like a deep squat, then he just stands up out of it, and you're like, what? I think I've seen that. I think I've seen that.

Speaker 34286.04s - 4306.24s

I think I have seen that. Yeah, that's crazy. But his penultimate sucks. It does. It's so bad. Negative penultimate. Push through a poll through your penultimate. Yeah. Okay. We're running our time here. I got got i got a couple more and they might be boys

Speaker 44306.24s - 4313.68s

they might be some thought provoking and they might take a while um do we give us give us one at least

Speaker 34313.68s - 4320.24s

give us one what i'm giving you both i don't respect your time um you need to do you jake showed up

Speaker 14320.24s - 4325.2s

30 minutes late to my podcast he's got no problem letting this thing run over.

Speaker 34326.48s - 4326.94s

Okay.

Speaker 14327.68s - 4330.48s

You can, this can be personally or this can be with people.

Speaker 34330.58s - 4332.38s

What is the dumbest thing you've done,

Speaker 24332.9s - 4335.14s

pliometrically, if pliometrically is a word?

Speaker 34338.1s - 4338.98s

It's a word now.

Speaker 24339.66s - 4340.12s

Personally,

Speaker 34342.04s - 4342.84s

um,

Speaker 24348.72s - 4349.16s

not plymetrically, it was box jumping maximally.

Speaker 34351.4s - 4352.8s

I just like I shaved my shin off basically.

Speaker 24354.34s - 4358.34s

Yeah, that stopped me box jumping.

Speaker 34365.92s - 4366s

I tried to push depth jumps far too much, far, far too much.

Speaker 14367.48s - 4367.54s

And I was still trying to drop jump.

Speaker 44369.52s - 4370.48s

I was still trying to get off the ground quickly.

Speaker 14375.68s - 4388.76s

And I'm pretty sure I got, yeah, I got like a shin issue. But this is when I was still an athlete and I was just pissing around with things myself. And I got a shin issue from it. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what else. Tim PERSON, you go.Have you got any got any insights?

Speaker 34389.32s - 4393.04s

Let me know. Look it up to the sky thinking.

Speaker 24395.18s - 4438.8s

Yeah, I'm trying to call on some inspiration. You know, I would probably say I would have to go back to like the years that I experienced jumpers knee and just my belligerent, just like I'm fucking dunking today. Just, you know, I'll get warmed up. My knees will feel a little bit better. And even if I, you know, on my block step every now and then,I get intensely insanely sharp pain. Fuck it. I'm dunkin. And I mean, boys, I did that to the point. All or nothing is a blessing and a curse, you know, and I took it as far as I possibly could to the point where if anyone's had jumpers knee were walking up stairs is excruciatingly painful, then you know.You get it. I did that.

Speaker 14440.34s - 4455.76s

I don't share your affinity for your jumpers knee. Like, I've never really had bad jumpers knee. And it's so, it's, yeah, it's get some single leg jumper, surely. It's got to be. Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 34457.76s - 4460.52s

It's, well, we're in the 100 kilo club. What do you weigh, Matt PERSON?

Speaker 14462.2s - 4463.6s

91, 92, KJ.

Speaker 34463.7s - 4472.44s

Yeah, Matt PERSON, what the fuck do you weigh? What are you bitch, Matt PERSON? We're in the 100J? Yeah, Matt, what the fuck do you weigh? What are you bitch, Matt? We're in the 100-kilo club. You're meant for jumpers knee if you're around six foot.

Speaker 24472.44s - 4474.56s

Yeah, it's true.

Speaker 44474.94s - 4481.26s

Yeah, just weekend warrior and, you know, 220 plus pounds just meathead.

Speaker 24481.82s - 4483.76s

Let me, let me, let me, I wasn't going to share one.

Speaker 34483.76s - 4484.16s

I had mine.

Speaker 24484.28s - 4489.76s

Mine was, first time I met Tim was in Texas and then I went to California for like three months.

Speaker 34489.9s - 4519.9s

COVID, everything was shut down. I wasn't really dunking much. And then I got, I moved back to Minneapolis GPE. Was sleeping on my buddy's floor for a month working at this velocity place. And we dunked every single day on outdoor courts because I, yeah, outdoor, sometimes indoor. My knees hurt so bad and Iremember going to like getting out of bed getting off the floor in the morning with stuff because I'm sleeping on the floor to have to bend the knees I'm basically just doing like a big big hip hinge to get to get off the ground you know yeah training the hockey guys one of our

Speaker 44519.9s - 4526.5s

exercises was those sprints we got to hold the band. Oh. And oh, that was the worst thing.

Speaker 34526.5s - 4527.5s

Yes.

Speaker 44527.5s - 4571.12s

I'm like hardly like just burning both knees. And I'm like, anyone, anyone else please do this. Like I purposely avoided standing by the turf when I knew that was the exercise. Like no one, because, you know, if I'm standing, they're going to be like, yeah, can you just hold this man for me real quick? And it's like, I do not want to hold. So it turned for me of like just using my upper body strength to extend the band as much as I could so that I had no speed. But then it would actually recorral it.I would actually have quite a bit of speed. You faster and even more pain. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Okay.Last one of you guys. What, what? Let's go with this. What grinds your gears? What paces you off the most in, uh, plymetrics? In the plymetrics world.

Speaker 14576.48s - 4638.52s

Um, I, I don't like how people hide with, with bilateral stuff. Um, it pisses me off because they, you just like they they create this really stiff like rigid body and they just like pop off the ground and uh and then like I'll go I'll do a seminar and I'll see like 50% of people doing it and they just hide in bilateral stuff and then you take them to single leg stuff and everything goes to shit seminar i did on saturday was exactly that it was like two or three guys they're like yeah he's hiding um and it's like people in in like bilateral stuff they they try to genuinely like lock out their knees to like maintain this like and that's where that's where like landing on your forefoot comes in people assume that it has to be ankle dominant. So yeah, it kind of gets to me that that does because again,it just shows that people just aren't doing any single leg stuff. But yeah, you know, it's quite arbitrary to someone else.

Speaker 34639.16s - 4643.9s

That was your, Tim, before you go, this was your, that one Achilles PERSON podcast,

Speaker 14643.9s - 4659.94s

you were talking about people flapping at the foot like what was your, that one Achilles PERSON podcast, you were talking about people flapping at the foot, like, what was your, right? That's what reminds me of the, the plios. They just, I forgot the exact phrase. I think it was, it reminded me like the scuba, scuba diving flippers, you know, they're flipping at the feet.I don't know if that's what you're saying, but, yeah. All right, Tim PERSON.

Speaker 34662.08s - 4663.9s

Yeah, I've got, I guess I've got two.

Speaker 24664.06s - 4744.16s

I think mine would be like you know in my space um which i guess is y'all's face too but like a lot of people the the extent of the quote unquote pliometric training that they program is box jumps that there's there's no there's no that you know there's no other variety it's just like oh well the the kid needs to jump higher so we do box jumps i'm working with a high school basketball team right now and like that's it it's just box like the coach is like well we dobox jumps and i'm like dude what the fuck what you know um so um that box jumps being like just good enough to develop jumping ability. Kind of drives me nuts. And then the other thing that I used to do that I don't do anymore that I think just kind of dumb now is band assisted jumps. I just think they're fucking stupid.And I don't have any scientific. I don't have any research to back that up. It's just I used to do them and I don't do them. And everyone that I train with with a goal to jumps hide still jumps really fucking, they get better. And they didn't have to do band assisted jumps. So I don't know. I hope you still have that

Speaker 34744.16s - 4745.32s

video of the band assisted jumps at the first collective. I. I hope you still have that video of the band

Speaker 24745.32s - 4750.38s

assisted jumps at the first collective. I have so many. No, no, it was like one of your most

Speaker 34750.38s - 4754.48s

legit like guy came into film. I don't know who was doing them, but you were coaching.

Speaker 24754.48s - 4760.16s

Bejohn Robinson. Was that it? Yes. Yes. This is three years ago, guys. Like I was like,

Speaker 44760.48s - 4765.12s

I'm like, we're doing a fridge contrast. And, you know, we, and in order to do that properly, we have to have some sort of band assisted jump. And, you know, he's doing contrast. And, you know, and in order to do that properly,

Speaker 24765.58s - 4767.78s

we have to have some sort of band assisted jump.

Speaker 44768.4s - 4769.48s

And, you know, he's doing them.

Speaker 24769.64s - 4775.2s

And, like, he's just, I mean, he's probably jumping 12 feet in the fucking air.

Speaker 34775.32s - 4777.5s

You know, like pulling himself on these bands.

Speaker 24777.8s - 4814.24s

And like the ground contact time, I don't even think was any faster. You know, he was still like, you know, anyway. They were done poorly at that time. But, yeah, like like I never, I don't know, I just did them because I thought that that's what you're supposed to do because that's what I was told helps and it works. And it's, like the more time I watch them and the more I see people do them, like there are so many other things that can do what I'm trying to accomplish here that I don't have to hang myself from the ceiling from the fucking bands and go through this whole processso i don't like fucking with them i don't like tying them up i don't like taking them down the whole thing

Speaker 14814.24s - 4843.24s

fuck them all yeah the uh the research recently by alex natera has been been interesting because people were like oh well he's showing that um there's a higher spike in force when you land. And you're like, but you still have the band attached to you. So therefore, that's still unwating you, which is not exposing you to that total amount of force. How do you not fucking see that? Yeah.Yeah. I'm just, come on.

Speaker 04844.52s - 4844.94s

Yeah.

Speaker 14845.44s - 4846.88s

So I would say, and listen you know like

Speaker 24846.88s - 4848.4s

if for anyone listen

Speaker 04848.4s - 4850.22s

if you like them and love them like I don't know

Speaker 14850.22s - 4852.28s

if I can do whatever you want but I don't do them anymore

Speaker 24852.28s - 4854.5s

yeah um you don't mind

Speaker 34854.5s - 4856.94s

I gotta say mine um

Speaker 24856.94s - 4860.68s

is when I see someone in a in a reel

Speaker 34860.68s - 4885.32s

and they have your the tears deep tier light tier whatever they don't see ping much and then i look at it and they didn't take you anywhere they didn't take mat anywhere and i'm like i mean maybe at this point people just assume like it's your thing i mean the tears with the plymatics everything uh but yeah that's my thing i'm just like you said deep just give him a tag just tag matt that's what you got it from that's not now. I'm just like, you said deep, just give him a tag.

Speaker 14889.88s - 4896s

Just tag Matt PERSON. That's what you got it from. That's not now. You need to think of your own thing, like a different vernacular. I don't know what. This is not here. Nothing pleases me more than

Speaker 44896s - 4901.46s

seeing the word tier. I keep seeing deep tier. Like I'm now doing a little bit of YouTube ORG. I'll just

Speaker 14901.46s - 4915.58s

Google. I was just YouTube ORG deep tier. They're like, oh, deep tier jumps. This is deep tier explosive training. I'm like, you haven't got a fucking clue what you're talking about. You don't know where it came from. And yeah, I just know if it says,

Speaker 24915.58s - 4920.38s

that's the problem. Yeah. That's the problem with standing on the shoulders of giants, you know,

Speaker 14920.5s - 4925.12s

is like you just start calling it the thing that you're doing but you don't know what you're doing

Speaker 24925.12s - 4935.92s

and you don't know that you look like an asshole because you're not smart enough to know that you look and sound like a fucking moron you know but you are yeah i heard a i heard something

Speaker 34935.92s - 4975.56s

i'm going to respect your time because wait a couple more minutes all right um i heard something recently i don't know if you guys i had never Greg PERSON was telling me this there was a couple very smart guys in the field that I'm, really look up to, and they seem to always be at different levels of information. And Greg was like, one of those guys like,yeah, he'll never, he'll never tell you that he was wrong. Like, so today, if he's like, or if yesterday he would be like, do band assist jumps are amazing. And then today he'd see you doing bad as his jumps. Like, why are you doing bad assistant jumps? That's stupid.We don't do that anymore. But he'll never admit that he's wrong and never admit that he's changed his opinion. And I'm like, that is fascinating.

Speaker 04976.1s - 4992.52s

Yeah. So I don't know if you guys can think of any of those people that you've come across. But I definitely have a couple. I'm probably going to think of like three more. I'm like, wow, that's crazy. Because I'm at the point. I'm just messing around with my tent and stuff still. But I'm like, I will admit a couple. I'm probably going to think of like three more. I'm like, wow, that's crazy. Because I'm at the point, I'm just messing around with my tent and stuff still,but I'm like, I will admit right away that the thing I said last week was stupid.

Speaker 34994.4s - 5000s

Maybe when I reach a level of expertise, I'll start doing that, you know, to come across as the expert that's never wrong.

Speaker 25000.48s - 5004.1s

You just never acknowledged that two years ago you gave a whole seminar on something

Speaker 35004.1s - 5006.78s

that now you completely fundamentally don't agree with.

Speaker 25008.26s - 5011.3s

That level of hubris must be very free.

Speaker 35011.66s - 5012.1s

I don't know.

Speaker 25012.26s - 5014.12s

That's pretty, that's wild.

Speaker 35015.32s - 5017.74s

All right, guys, tell everyone where to find you.

Speaker 45017.98s - 5022.84s

And if you have anything coming up, tell them how to do that.

Speaker 35024.26s - 5025.04s

McKinness, Swanson PERSON. By the way, this is also pissing me off at the moment. People think my first that. McKinness, Swanson,

Speaker 15025.38s - 5025.76s

by the way,

Speaker 35025.76s - 5027.26s

this is also pissing me off at the moment.

Speaker 15027.4s - 5033.96s

People think my first name is McKinness PERSON. It's fucking Matt PERSON. Fuck sake. Matt PERSON,

Speaker 25034.06s - 5042s

I was calling you McGinnis PERSON. I had you in my phone. At McGinnis PERSON. For a while, like a long time,

Speaker 05042s - 5046.26s

dude. Just call me, Matt PERSON. That's fine. It doesn't have to be anything different. Anyway, at McKinis Swanson on Instagram. I also thought it was your first name. Sorry, keep. Just call me Matt PERSON. That's fine. Like, it doesn't have to be anything different. Anyway, at McKinness, Watson on Instagram ORG.

Speaker 25046.26s - 5048.52s

I also thought it was your first name. Sorry, keep on.

Speaker 05048.7s - 5052.86s

Yeah, yeah. That's it. That's all we got. At McKinness Watson ORG or plus buyers.

Speaker 35055.14s - 5060.88s

Tim, Tim, did you send me the contact information and it said McGuinness, Watson PERSON?

Speaker 05061.4s - 5062s

I, no, no, no.

Speaker 25062.04s - 5076.94s

Before I said you, because I realized that I'd had it in my phone incorrectly this whole time. Jake PERSON, Jake, the Jake made fun of me for it. So before I shared the contact information with Jake PERSON, I edited it to reflect your name correctly.

Speaker 35077.68s - 5085.98s

And then shared the contact with it. I swear, I swear when you, you picked me up, gave me a ride somewhere. You got a text from Matt and it still said McGuinness PERSON. It did.

Speaker 25086.34s - 5089.98s

And then I changed it after we laughed about it.

Speaker 35089.98s - 5090.64s

Okay, okay.

Speaker 25094.6s - 5096.08s

My name, hi.

Speaker 35096.72s - 5101.06s

At Tim Riley, at Tim Riley Training, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube ORG.

Speaker 25101.3s - 5115.22s

I have a podcast with Jake and a separate podcast with Matt PERSON coming out soon at Coach them up podcast. And I have a program called Cheat Code ORG. If you haven't seen my ads already, I'm sure you will. So sorry about it. Yeah.

Speaker 35115.34s - 5115.94s

That's it.

Speaker 25116.18s - 5124.76s

Cheat code for pickleball, Achilles rupture prevention, a host of other things. All to the above. Really does. They're all coming down the pipe. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 35125.24s - 5126.26s

All right, guys, things are coming on.

Speaker 15126.94s - 5127.48s

Boys.

Speaker 35128.58s - 5129s

Appreciate.