The Evolution Of Courtney Lawes: The complete back rower?

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Why are we doing this?

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For the love of the game, mate.

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For the love of rugby. In today's episode, the evolution of Courtney Laws PERSON. Is he still getting better? How did he become a ball carrier? Longevity.Converting to six. Smashing people. And how rugby used to be chaos.

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Courts, thanks for joining us, mate. Pleasure.

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Good to be.

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I really appreciate it.

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Find the place, right?

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Yeah, yeah, it was fine, yeah.

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Mate, when was peak Courtney Laws PERSON?

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I'd say the way I'm playing this season and probably the year prior, so the Australia GPE tour,

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then that season, it's probably some of my best rugby. And then previously it was 2017 New Zealand GPE tour. I'd have said I was similar level. Different parts of my game were better then, but I'm somewhat better at different things now. So I don't know.I've just been able to kind of try at least to continue developing my game. And with experience, it helps you make an impact more regularly, I think. And I've just been able to continue to perform, I guess.

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Is there anything that's actually created that? Like, have you got a different mindset courts? Like, you obviously knew you were calling time internationally after World Cup EVENT. Like, is there anything that's changed that's allowed you to maybe go to that next level again? Because that's what it looks like.

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I think, to be honest, mate, when Eddie PERSON came in, and I've always been like really competitive, a really competitive bloke. I've always wanted to be a really good player, you know, one of the best players. But I wasn't really living that until Eddie PERSON got there I'd stop really pushing myself as how as I couldand then Eddie PERSON came in and dropped me and then I was like shit, damn like I'm no longer in the team kind of thing so I need tostart pushing myself I can be better I knew I could be better and then from there that kind of drive just never stopped. So like I went from just trying to get back in the teamto obviously getting back in the team and starting and then you push on and you know you become a leader in the team. And then before you know it, you kind of capped in. But then even beyond that, I was like, well, why stop here? Like I want to push me, you know, one of the best players in the world to leave a bit of a legacy behind you.Because you just kind of, you get on that path and you realise you're in a position where you actually can do that. So let's go for it kind of thing. That's really what's still driving me. Like, I'm still hungry for it. I still think I can be better and play better. Like, I'm never satisfied.I always want to be the player. I wish I could be, I guess. But yeah, that's what drives me.

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It's strange, isn't it? You never truly satisfied, but yet so many people would be. And is that what, I suppose, separates players? I think you always, like, as to say,

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you strive for the perfect game, don't you in regards to, like, almost like making no mistakes. But even you're never going to do it, but doesn't stop you striving for it. And even if you get there, you look at, say, or a clear out or a tackle,you're like, I could have been better at this, this, this, and it's always that, or I could do more. Like, you make 30 tackles in the game, then you're like,I can make 31, I can make 30, you know what I mean? So there's always that's partly being a competitor, and then partly it's just, you learn how to push yourselfand you get further on. How have you found, like, obviously, we're quite old now between the three of us. Do you find some more of a mental game you play with stuff?Because obviously, you want to say, oh yeah, I do loads of extras. But when you're like, can't bend over in the morning,

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it's like, I'm not going to do loads of extras. My extras is going inside. Thank you. I'm going inside and you're going in this order.

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So how have you found that? Actually, old, do you find yourself switching off more? Yeah, definitely. And it is one of them things like, I had a back spasm before the balls game. I'm like 1 o'clock in the afternoon. I'm kicking off at 8 and I'm like, oh my God, I'm not going to be able to play.Like when I was supposed to be captain, I'm fucked. Yeah, I have fucked. No matter what happens, and even if I can play, I'm fucked. I took a load of painkillers, got out there and I could run. I could move. And I was like, bugger it.We'll go for it kind of thing. Know in full well that I was going to be toast for the rest of the week, kind of thing. But yesterday was the first day in about six weeks to two months. Like, I didn't have hip issues or back issue. And I was like, Fipanak PERSON actually feel pretty good. Got to the session.And I was like, you know what? I could probably do some extras today. And then I was like, but then you're going to be fucked tomorrow. So let's not do. You know what I mean? I do know what I do. So it's like, I could probably do some extras today. And then I was like, but then you're going to be fucked tomorrow. So let's not do that. You know what I mean? I do know what I'm saying?

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So I was like, yeah, let's just leave that.

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Let's just leave that. You know, you do all that while you're young to get to the position you are when you get a bit older. And then it's about, for me anyway, it's about making sure that I feel good going into the games. If I can feel fast and mobile and like I can get around the park, then I will have a big impact. And then that's when all your experience comes inand the fact that you know the game so well that you don't have to have trained the whole week or done all the extras because you've been doing it the whole career. You know what I mean? You've logged the hours. And now it's just about making surethat you're in a body's in a state where you can actually perform.

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I'm just going on, you know, when you said that Eddie PERSON basically gave you, like, go work at your game, blah, blah, blah. Like, did he almost say to you, like, I think there's more in you, you go figure out yourself, or I think there's more in you in this department? And I'll help you get there. And when you do it, like, you'll be back in because, but like, what was that sort of like, nudge that you kind of needed or it wasn't, I'll help you as you're gone until you get better.

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Yeah, yeah. Basically. It was like, yeah, it was basically like, look, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you're, you, you, you as you're you're gone until you get better yeah

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basically it was like yeah it was basically like you you you hit well and like I just

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I basically been pretty one-dimensional for a few years when I first came on to

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scene and we came on together like I was I was doing a lot of guys known for my ball carrying and big hitting kind of thing and then for whatever reason I lost a lot of confidence with my ball carrying so I just was like I don't worry about it I'll get my basics right you know line that's important I can bang people and that's what I hitting kind of thing and then for whatever reason I lost a lot of confidence with my ball carrying so I just was like I don't worry about it I'll get my basics right you know line out's important I can bang peopleand that's what I'll kind of

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that's just what I'll do and then I wasn't too worried about like getting around the pack and trying to carry and stuff like that but Eddie PERSON was like no we need we need a ball carrierso until you saw that area game out you know I've got a place in the team kind of thing so I went away and you know just worked really hard it did a ton of extras.Every session, I'd do extra. And we did loads of stuff. Then we were like that drill out of the post and stuff like that, just moving, footwork and all that kind of stuff. Until eventually, you know, I kind of just reignited that part of my game. And then once you start doing that, you learn that,actually, you can do that for anything, really, as long as you've got the kind of attributes to do it. So, yeah, that moved on to break down now and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, it was a real, like, you know, learning curve for me. And it's the thing that really changed my trajectory.

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Courtsdale PERSON, you mentioned about working your ball carry.

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Do you want to just give listeners a bit of an idea what that is? Yeah, so essentially you can just use the post as, like, your defender is what we'd do. So Lenny PERSON had essentially set up ruck. you can just use the post as like your defender is what we'd do. So Lenny PERSON had essentially set up ruck. You would run at your defender. He would passable to you as close to the pad as possible.And you'd essentially either step in or step out just to give, just to work on your footwork and your timing basically. It also helps you catch the ball on the run, which sounds really simple and easy. But you'd be surprised how many people don't move until they've caught the ball because they're worried about actually dropping it or, you know, not catching it. But if you...

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You've got to put yourself that position first, man.

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I'll be...

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I do my own drill where I stand just daggerly behind Courtney and get the breakdown.

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Once he's caught it and carried it. It's like, yep, breakdown, lads. Some players, yeah, are worried about catching it.

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But yeah, it does really help you with your timing and also getting the ball on the move, which is a big advantage. So Courtney obviously seen the evolution of him in regards to. He came on the scene. We all knew he could hit people.He could carry a ball, but it probably wasn't the main strength of his game. I think it was more defensively. I think as you saw as he got older, he became the complete back rower. I think you've always had back rowers that can do certain things like, David Procott PERSON was brilliant, every ball. You carry a bit, but his focus was the ball.You have other back rowers that can ball carry. And you might get guys who are back rowers that can, like a Tom Croft PERSON, who is a line-out. Great in open space, but he's sort of a line-out forward. Whereas Courtney, he's been, he's in the middle of the line-out. He can play in the space, the wide space, he plays in the tight spaces.He carries into car crashes. He gets over ball, the jackals. He makes line breaks offloads. Like, there's not many players, I think, that play rugby, not many back rowers that can do the complete spectrum of skills. And not just do them, averagely, do them at a world-class level. I think that's what sets them apart is about that it doesn't just, you probably get back rowers that can ball carry six out of ten,Jackal, six out of ten, this six out of ten. But he does everything to a nine out of ten standard.

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And it's the leadership bits as well. This is the other thing that people just don't see. It's that presence. It's that ability to drag others with you. It's the ability to hold people accountable. We got a question on the pod a couple of weeks ago,what's the difference between a premiership player and an international player? We said about how you need a point of difference. You need, what is your X factor? And as you mentioned, like with courts, it's jackaling, it's tackling, it's line-outs. So it's not just one point of difference. Like, there's four and someone might be also able to jackal, but can they do lineouts? Can they hit like he can? But like, Jackling's another one, courts. Mate, what was the World Cup EVENT? Like,

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what were we saying earlier? We said before, like, 2020-23 World Cup, like, you were getting two or three courts. Mate, what was the World Cup EVENT? Like, what were we saying earlier? Well, we said before, like,

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2020-23 World Cup, like, you were getting two or three

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a game. That was just the most like the final

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string to your bow in regards. So, like, obviously,

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you've always been able to hit. The carry was there, the set piece with their line at work. And then, like, the ability of jackal and just turn the ball over. Which you've, you know, it's not like it's new to you've done, but, like, the fact that it was consistently

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throughout games and the impact of the game, handle the game. It was just like, Horton PERSON is the complete player. So when I was a bit younger, I did attempt to Jack quite a lot, but I got injured a lot of doing it. Basically, like,I hadn't developed the leg strength you need to be able to withstand a lot of people clearing you out and trying to turn you over or whatever. Because a lot of people will, if they can't knock you out the way, they'll roll on you. And if you haven't got strong legs,you just, like, my MCL I had like five different MCL injuries pretty much just from that. When Eddie came in, again, it wasn't him that really did this, but I just started taking my strength and conditioning a lot more seriously, like, especiallykind of compound lifting. I don't know a lot of deadlift now because of my back, but I squat a lot still. And having that leg strength and Colley PRODUCT, you'll know this as a from row that, like, if you can get that compound lifting in, if you can be properly strong and lift good weights,it actually protects you in a lot of ways when you're playing rugby. And that has allowed me to then actually put myself in positions where you can get hurt and know that you've got the strength to get away with it, essentially.

Speaker 7721.42s - 731.72s

The longevity stuff, two years in France GPE, where you caught, yourself and Colour PERSON got a little while left here. You don't miss a day of training. Like you don't ever stop. So therefore it's almost like if you did stop,you'd be fucked.

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Yeah.

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You look at DC ORG still going. Like Marla PERSON's still running around. I'm still world class when I'm given the opportunity. In non-23 sessions,

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you are brilliant.

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I am unbelievable on a Friday in the non-23 at the moment. Mark my words. I mean, there's no live coverage of it but just listeners, take my word for it.

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I show those Academy ORG lads

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how it's done.

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What do we put it down to?

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I reckon it is that competitive instinct

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and the fact that, like,

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coldly touched on, you're never satisfied with where you're at. So you're constantly pushing yourself. You're not letting, you're not giving yourself any days off. If you do have a day off, it's, it's for recovery purposes, you know, so it's actually for a purpose and your ability to push yourself is what determines whereyou're going to end up, essentially, how far and how hard. And obviously, there's a bit to do with talent and athleticism and that kind of stuff. But generally, it's, it's how hard you're willing to work and how hard, how far you're willing to push yourself through, through that pain. If you do that for long enough, you have a, you have a long career, you know what I mean? Pushing through pain, it reminds me of

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Coli running in Denver. Running, running every day, just running in general. No, I just had visions

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of you running with Marla in Denver with Lanny next year, encouraging. Yeah, encourage her.

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Encouraged it as then we just ignored it, but he went back out. It nearly died on one of

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them sessions.

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It wasn't a sink

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or someone, was it?

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In Denver GPE? In Denver GPE, yeah. It was a prop. It was definitely a front row.

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I think he might be in this room.

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Not me. I'm pretty sure. No, Colie PRODUCT's not bad at fitness.

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Coles actually really good. No, I'm just very,

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very slow and steady.

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I won't win anything, but I'll just continue going.

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We did that mass running, didn't we?

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And it was minginging. Who? Somebody, one of the props. Henry Thomas? PERSON No, I won't win anything, but I'll just continue going. We did that mass running, didn't we? And it was minging.

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Who? Somebody, one of the props.

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Henry Thomas PERSON? No, I don't know. It was him.

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Brooks PERSONie, maybe? Maybe Brooks.

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Yeah, Broxie PERSON does ring a bell. I think,

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oh. No, it was.

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So, Broxie is Kieran Brooks PERSON, who played a long time

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at Northampton, Leicester, Newcastle Wasps ORG,

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and I think he's now until on. Broxy PERSON got destroyed in a scrum, didn't he? Like, after the end of the session.

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We're in a huddle at the end and Brooks PERSON's heads down. And Graham Brown Tree ORG was like, you remember like it was in the it was in like Denver Rugby Club ORG? It had like concrete stands and stuff, didn't it? And it was like, Brooks PERSON had his head down. It's like, Ray Rangardt PERSON.She's like, look at me, look at me. And Dave At PERSON that was like, look at him.

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Yeah, that was it.

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I knew that.

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But yeah, I just remember the scrum and being like,

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Brooks PERSON is in the air.

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Just figure up the ground.

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I do think, like, longevity-wise,

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back to the point.

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We've probably played at, like, a perfect time.

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But, like, when we came into the game,

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rugby was fairly brutal.

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I think we got the end of, like,

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that first wave professionalism

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where training was, right,

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just going to fight for two hours.

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We'll go and do units for two hours. And, like, the game's evolved to the point where it's all now like short, sharp, intense. I think like, it's probably puts in good stead in the fact that today some guys are like, oh my God, 40 minutes, that was so hard. It's like, that's not a hard session.

Speaker 4897.32s - 903.16s

Topless morning. Yeah, we're done some stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I watched a bit of clip ahead of this.

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I looked at the opening game against Argentina in the World Cup in 2011.

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Mate.

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Like, it's chaos.

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Yeah. Like, the breakdown is ferocious. Like, it is physical. Not as structured as obviously it is now or anything like that, but like,I looked at it. I was just like, cheese, like, I played in that.

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I remember that game. And I was just flying, like, literally just flying around trying to hit anything I could

Speaker 7925.48s - 933.92s

first World Cup EVENT match you know what I mean it's unbelievable it was nuts wouldn't it yeah and you watch it back and it is it's like oh my god breakdown the tackles like the game's never been safer in

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like and more stretched and organized in that regard and so yeah you look those 21 games it's literally four or five blokes flying into breakdowns just off the feet shoulder charge in and anything goes and it's like play on there's still not loads of players that have played

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as long as we have though. Like you think of all the players that have kind of come and gone through the years and like even boys like Dills got to 33 I thinkand stuff, do I mean? So like it's not it's not that easy. It takes better luck as well probably. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 7959.18s - 969.4s

Eddie PERSON always said to me like and I really strongly believe this he said like it'll be two things that give up, it's either your mind or your body, it just depends what comes first. It's either your mind's great and you want to keep doing it.

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Just like, what else though? Overeating.

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It's your mind or your body, right?

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Or, uh, yeah, right, that's all bases covered then, in it?

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Yeah, it's not wrong to be fair.

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Lock off, Colin PERSON.

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I took that that as like absolute wisdom from him.

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And I swear by that.

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And now you've hop and bugged me off.

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Maybe it's the non-23 sessions that get you in the end.

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Who knows?

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On the Friday.

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Cheers, man.

Speaker 0992.98s - 993.98s

Mind body or coaches.

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That's what's going to do you.

Speaker 0995.36s - 996.36s

Yeah, you know, wrong.

Speaker 8996.86s - 998.44s

Mind body or you just shit.

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Or contract.

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All like.

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Egotiation.

Speaker 41001.96s - 1004.52s

All like we said, the game was what it was in 2011.

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It's what it is now. you just can't evolve with it.

Speaker 41006.88s - 1008.44s

But yeah, that was quite amusing watching that.

Speaker 71008.44s - 1019.88s

And then, like, it's, because it is, like, we basically have played for an era where the game has changed. And like, the safety's changed. The structure of the game now, it's like, you know, obviously Northampton ORG player very, you know, move the ball, they play great rugby.

Speaker 91019.88s - 1040.62s

We're still really structured team and that's what allows you to play or whatnot. But, but yeah, back in the day, it was literally just one-hour runners. Even when, do you remember when Eddie first got in there and we'd do, I can't remember what it was called, like, bolt or something, where, like, we'd get to an edge, and then we'd just send two runners as hard as we could at the line. That is so different to now, like it's completely different game.It's changed so much.

Speaker 71040.68s - 1042.92s

That's right. Well, you would, wouldn't be, and then we could even go out of the back of them or hit them?

Speaker 91042.92s - 1049.34s

Yeah, yeah, even hit them and go out. You wouldn't do that now, would you? No, definitely. You just get eaten up, eating alive, isn't you? It is mad. Yeah. Do you wish you

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converted to six earlier? And, like, who made that? Because, like, you played six, and then he

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kind of went back to six. And now you definitely finished your career as a six.

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Yeah, definitely. Um, I remember, for a few seasons, even with Saints ORG, I would play,

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depending on, because we had Labe and Yondre

Speaker 71066.64s - 1071.32s

Kruger, depending on whether Nacho PERSON was fit, I would play, and if he wasn't going to play,

Speaker 91071.4s - 1098.24s

I'd play in the second row, and if he was going to play, I'd play six. So I was always kind of that utility. I played a couple of games at six, but wasn't really successful, especially for England, I don't think. And then people were like, oh, it's a second row definitely a second row kind of thing and then I think the game actually changed quite a bit whereby you needed a third jumper in the line out like a good jumper like it makes such a big differencewhere you set a piece and that was when I go from why it's a pretty light weight lightweight second row to a number six

Speaker 71098.24s - 1103.36s

there's a much difference because I imagine Coley PERSON if you went from tighter to loose head to the hardest position in sports mate

Speaker 41103.36s - 1105.76s

but could you lock in theory?

Speaker 71105.84s - 1107.22s

Could you lock it down at Lushead GPE?

Speaker 41107.62s - 1109.74s

You could get away for a little while.

Speaker 71110.02s - 1111.92s

Funny you mentioned that because Joe Marla PERSON went from

Speaker 41111.92s - 1112.92s

Luset to Tire ORG.

Speaker 71113.3s - 1114.86s

Can you remember we played Quins ORG?

Speaker 41115.02s - 1115.76s

Where year was that?

Speaker 71115.94s - 1117.92s

We played, John played Italy in the World Cup EVENT qualifier.

Speaker 41118.22s - 1123.76s

You like came on to 10 minutes at the end and just pre-engaged everything. And the referee was just like, let's get this game over with.

Speaker 71124.18s - 1135.68s

Like, just get it over with. We played Quins at Twickenham one year and I think Sinks had gone off and Marla PERSON, they had to, like, whatever, he was like, fine, I'll go tight head. May we'll get some footage up.

Speaker 81136.84s - 1148.82s

He refused to go down, but he was willing to go back. By God, he made, Quins were up by like 28 points. We end up drawing the game just because of Marla PERSON. Really? He was like M-O-M-O-M. But yeah, so it's mad sort of like trying to change positions.

Speaker 91149.1s - 1171.14s

I'd say playing as a six, you've got a bit more energy around the park because you're not got your head in the flipping engine room. And also you get a few more carries a game, a few more tackles just because you're off the scrum a bit quicker and whatnot. You often, especially nowadays, you'll hold the width as a six. You'll be up against back, so you've got to be a bit quicker and whatnot. But yeah, it's very different. It's changed a lot here.

Speaker 41171.42s - 1178.46s

I was finding in the type 5 you miss a lot of the game. Like you watch it back in because you've obviously have a scrum, whatever, and you can almost have two phases. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 91178.46s - 1182.34s

You're still going and you get out and you're running back on side. And it's like, how the

Speaker 01182.34s - 1208.52s

fuck do we get on the back here? Why am I running 60 metres backwards? I've just been put like this kind of stuff or like, even off a line out, like you lift. You're running back on side and it's like, how the fuck do we get on the back here? Why am I running 60 metres backwards? I've just been putting like this kind of stuff or like even off a line out. Like you lift, you come down, make sure everything's right. You check the edge where it is and you miss the play. Yeah. But it's only like, it's a back row and stuff.You actually involved every play in first phase and stuff. You'll see the game. But type five, I'd say almost like a third of the game like multi-phase you miss because you're literally organising something else. Like on short sides or going over there and it's just, we're still in the scrum, and it's bad.

Speaker 91209.02s - 1223.62s

Often you're in the second row, and obviously you can't see a thing other than the floor. And you have a scrum on your ball. You'll get up from the scrum, and somehow they've got the ball 30 meters down the pitch. You're like, what's going on? What's happened?

Speaker 41223.62s - 1228.02s

What's happening? The thing is it when it gets, it's like your ball that gets hooked and it like comes off someone's knee.

Speaker 81228.16s - 1230.54s

It's like the flanker's knee and it rolls back through the scrum.

Speaker 91230.94s - 1231.7s

And he's like, all right?

Speaker 81231.82s - 1234.08s

I was like, fuck shit, what do?

Speaker 91234.32s - 1234.94s

Fucking drop it.

Speaker 81235.34s - 1236.06s

Drop the scrum.

Speaker 11237.16s - 1237.8s

Bro.

Speaker 81237.8s - 1238.28s

A bought.

Speaker 11238.96s - 1243.36s

Well, it can be explained at Leicester when Bernsey PERSON was there because you'd scrum and

Speaker 81243.36s - 1244.52s

you'd get up and be like, how have they scored?

Speaker 11244.58s - 1244.98s

It was our ball.

Speaker 71246.52s - 1247.48s

Well, Freddie PERSON actually did a chip and chase and it didn't work and they picked up and scored.

Speaker 41249.7s - 1250.82s

Hey, he got the drawgo on, really.

Speaker 71251.86s - 1253.84s

As he told you, you know. He's told you.

Speaker 91253.84s - 1259.36s

Oh, dear. But that is true, actually. You guys, I didn't even think of that. Two-fazy,

Speaker 71259.42s - 1262.54s

you wouldn't have a clue what's going on. So if we were to lose it, you'd be like, what the

Speaker 81262.54s - 1265.4s

fuck. It's very odd because sometimes you come into the huddle, you want to have solutions, but it's like, I don't know what the fuck's going on, lass. But were to lose it, you'd be like, what the fuck? It's very hard because sometimes you come into like the huddle. You want to have solutions

Speaker 71265.4s - 1268.44s

but it's like, I don't know what the fuck's going on, lad. Can you just sort it out?

Speaker 81269.72s - 1274.08s

Can you just be better on the edge, lad? Yeah. I've got no solutions for you because I don't know

Speaker 41274.08s - 1279.78s

what's going on, but just be better guys, will you? We, uh, tour Tafka GPE in, I want to say, when was it?

Speaker 81279.82s - 1283.98s

Like, I want to say 2012. Did you come on that one? No, I meant I was injured. Injured. Well,

Speaker 41284.08s - 1285.72s

we had one, like, five from our lives.

Speaker 81285.74s - 1287.16s

It was the first one in the game.

Speaker 71287.26s - 1288.42s

It was in Joburg GPE.

Speaker 41288.62s - 1289.14s

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 91289.14s - 1290.1s

And it was like, we had this great scrum.

Speaker 41290.18s - 1291.04s

It was five minutes our ball.

Speaker 91291.18s - 1291.6s

I've put it in.

Speaker 71291.72s - 1292.82s

We've hit.

Speaker 91292.98s - 1293.32s

We've chased.

Speaker 71293.4s - 1294.62s

It's like, this is a phenomenal scrum.

Speaker 41294.86s - 1295.78s

The crowd's gone crazy.

Speaker 71295.88s - 1296.68s

It's like, fine, yeah.

Speaker 41297s - 1299.1s

They'll be honest, balls rolled straight through the side.

Speaker 81299.18s - 1300.36s

The six has picked up and scored.

Speaker 41300.8s - 1302.72s

I mean, didn't even touch anyone, so it shouldn't have been a try, but like.

Speaker 71302.72s - 1303.34s

It should have been reset.

Speaker 81303.58s - 1304.54s

No strike straight through the tunnel.

Speaker 71304.62s - 1305.48s

They pick it up. Everyone goes

Speaker 41305.48s - 1318.06s

crazy. Pack popped up. Out of the other side. Mate, it goes straight through no. Go straight through the tunnel and they pick it up and score. The crowd goes nuts. So these lads pick up and again, we want like, you know what I mean? Penalty against or something like that. And it's like, no, no, I thought the Saffers ORG appreciate

Speaker 71318.06s - 1321.92s

a good scrumbe here. It's like, oh no, no. No. We're under the sticks. Cool.

Speaker 91321.92s - 1338.7s

I mean, the Lions tour. I know. Like, I'd had a really, really busy, like, first 10 minutes. Load of carries. I must have had three or four carries. Loader tackles, getting around the pitch. And I had to, like, go down onto a knee because I was just blowing. And you know what I'm like, I'm like, I can't show this.

Speaker 01338.86s - 1340.1s

I'm relatively fit guys.

Speaker 11340.1s - 1340.46s

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 71340.66s - 1346.32s

But I was like, I was toast. I suppose the boys after they were like, yeah, I saw that. I was like, I was actually pretty I spoke some boys after they were like, yeah, I saw that. I was like, I was actually pretty worried.

Speaker 11347.48s - 1348.24s

This is it.

Speaker 91350.12s - 1350.94s

2018 we played.

Speaker 71351.06s - 1353.52s

We were toured South Korea GPE, didn't we?

Speaker 91353.58s - 1355.66s

And they were like, right, we're going to go to Durbin.

Speaker 81355.72s - 1357.18s

We're going to base herself in Durban GPE at sea level.

Speaker 91357.26s - 1359.34s

And then we're just flying to Jobo the day before, play.

Speaker 71359.86s - 1377.16s

You'll be absolutely fine. Outtube PRODUCT won't affect you. Like we race into like a 28-0 lead. We end up loses Africa like 39, 32. And like all the journalists are, what happened?What happened? Why'd you lose? Like, what a fucking lose? Can't breathe. Can't breathe. Everyone's dead.Like, boys are getting subbed before half time because they're like literally like

Speaker 01377.16s - 1377.86s

oxygen.

Speaker 81378.04s - 1378.78s

They're absolutely fucked.

Speaker 01378.88s - 1380.96s

Like, we're 28 nil up. Like, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 41381.06s - 1382.2s

The momentum did change, mate.

Speaker 01382.24s - 1387.54s

It's good fucking altitude and that on the fucking run. Oh, the joys, mate. The absolute joys. We'll have momentum did change, mate. It's good fucking attitude and that one would fucking run. Oh, the joys, mate.

Speaker 71387.64s - 1388.68s

The absolute joys.

Speaker 41388.82s - 1398.98s

We'll have loads more questions, Ben PERSON, but we'll just quickly go to the ads. Have you ever felt like escaping to your own desert island?

Speaker 01399.66s - 1401.62s

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Speaker 11401.98s - 1415.74s

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Speaker 01416.16s - 1428.84s

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Speaker 41429.38s - 1443.72s

Corts, obviously, the appreciation of you has definitely grown. I think it's probably, I think your stock in the ropey world's never been higher. Do you reckon that's, what you reckon that comes from? Is it a combination of people being more aware of what you're doing or the way commentators talk about you? Or would you reckon?

Speaker 91444.04s - 1450.02s

No, I completely understand. Yeah, there's a lot of kind of hype around me at the minute for whatever reason. I'm not.

Speaker 41450.14s - 1456.92s

But it's rightly. The thing is, it's justifiably so. I would say players have always known. People who've played with you, your teammates have always known how brilliant, your opposition, it would know how brilliant you are.

Speaker 91457.22s - 1571.52s

I've always kind of really appreciated the respect that I've got from my peers the most. And that honestly is what's been most important to me and I remember when we had the whole shenanigans around like who should be captain and and this and that and everyone's you know picking certain players but I'm nowhere near the radarand then out of nowhere I'm kind of captain and that just shows or showed to me but then the difference between you know what it's happening in the team and in camp and actually what the wider public see and thinkkind of thing and I think that was probably that probably has helped people consider that what my game is and how I can impact a team and stuff like thatand then on top of that probably just just the consistency kind of stuff because like I said since kind of 2015-16 I've been a pretty consistent player developing year on year but I'm not entirely I'm not entirely sure what it is it I mean I suppose a lot of it especially this season will be down to the fact that my teamsaints have been doing so well and and essentially you do ride off the back of that as a player like regardless of how well I'm playing if we're losing most games and if Saints ORG aren't in the semi of Europe and top of the league, then you won't get as much coverage and that kind of stuff. So it'll be a lot to do with, I think, how well Saints ORG are doing. And within that, you know, we've got an awful lot of talent at the Saints ORG. And I dare say that a lot of them are actually probably playing as well if not better than me this season.But I'm just trying to offer what I can in terms of experience. If I think I can add to the conversation and the preparation of the team then I'll make sure I'll kind of do that. And that is my kind of role in the team at the minute. And then being that kind of pillar that is, regardless of the game, how big it is, how small it is, just consistently play like a 7 out of 10, maybe an 8 out of 10 on a good day kind of thing.

Speaker 71571.72s - 1605.84s

Well, I think it's great that you are getting the recognition, mate, because I say your peers, we've always known it. You know, I think of like some little moments of like when we play Tonga at that time and we're up by a load and you run back and you make that tackle on Toulouse of Ireland GPE. Like, you know, that stuff is like unbelievable. Like, you had no right to get back. There's like, even during the World Cup where, you know, the warm-up gamesdidn't go particularly well for us. Then went there, you would lend such like a talisman figure almost within the pack and within the group. Again, and I just think it's great that actually you get the recognition you deserve because, you know, I'd argue that out of all the guysthat've got 100 caps, in my opinion, you're the best one out of that lot. Like, do you what I mean? And, you know, when you think, out of all the guys that've got 100 caps, in my opinion, you're the best one out of that lot.

Speaker 91606.2s - 1623.46s

Like, do you know, when you think of people talk about Delalio and Hill PERSON and back and all that, like there's no doubt in my mind that you have to be within that debate. And obviously, I'm going to be slightly biased. I play with you. But I just, I just think it's great that you are getting that and rightly so. We've got to talk about smashing people. Yeah, of course.

Speaker 41623.54s - 1625.38s

There's an art to it and I'm still trying to figure out the art.

Speaker 71627.3s - 1631.32s

Do you reckon it's like something that's like God given to you in regards to like timing

Speaker 41631.32s - 1636.44s

and or is it something you've worked or is you reckon you were sort of born and playing

Speaker 91636.44s - 1643.9s

rugby as an 8 year old, 10 year old, you could, it was something that was in you to smoke people. You really can't practice it, to be honest. I'm fucked. I'm fucked.

Speaker 41644.18s - 1644.8s

All these years.

Speaker 11644.94s - 1717.76s

All these years. Mom and dad. God damn fucked. All these years, I've been trying it. All these years, mom and dad. God damn you. And it depends what you're talking about. Like, you can obviously practice being a dominant tackler and your body position, timing, stuff like that.You can, you can practice that. But the kind of stuff that, like, say similar, the two of Langies PRODUCT will do. You know, like, the hit on Fodes back in the day when we play Perpion PRODUCT and he literally turned him and so that. Like, you can't actually practice that kind of stuff. It just has to, you essentially, well, you need to have pretty good timing and you need to want to hurt people. And in doing that, you have to be willing to hurt yourself at the same time. And there's been plenty of timeswhere you hit people and especially the highlight rules are the easiest ones. Like they're the ones that don't really hurt you, but I've hit a lot of big people. They don't go anywhere. And you end up hurting yourself. But you still hit them. All my highlight rules are me just banging like smaller bloatsbecause the impact's a lot greater. And then there was one on like Bastro that I managed to just time it perfectly. But I've actually turned up some pretty big bloats as well. And they're the ones that your teammates actually appreciate. It's not like the little lads that, you know, anyone can, anyone can bang.It's actually like stopping the big bloats that gets the boys up for the game kind of thing. So, and I've done a few of them. They do hurt you. But they're the ones that mean a lot, I think.

Speaker 71717.98s - 1721.02s

I can vouch for the Bastro PERSON one because you can see it. We'll clip it up.

Speaker 91722.56s - 1723.98s

Bastro PERSON's running and I'm in front of him.

Speaker 71724.24s - 1728.08s

And you, I'm like, I'm fucking line break for France

Speaker 81728.08s - 1735.48s

right this way, sir. And you come out of nowhere and fucking smoke him. I'm like, oh, God, man.

Speaker 71736.72s - 1738.72s

I know, yeah. For that one, oh, mate.

Speaker 91738.82s - 1740.62s

You get behind an angle, you could probably see my face

Speaker 71740.62s - 1742.34s

of like joy, like, ah, yes.

Speaker 91742.56s - 1744.06s

I come around the corner and I'm,

Speaker 71744.14s - 1746.9s

and I'm, obviously, like, we're playing France GPE or whatever, come around the corner,

Speaker 91747.04s - 1756.8s

and Fazz PERSON is on my outside, and Fazz's like, go and get him, courts, go and get him, go and get him. I was like, yeah, I'm going to get him. I'm flying. Boom, but yeah, that one out of it. Good.

Speaker 71757.04s - 1760.28s

The Piloson ORG one, that one is like.

Speaker 91760.46s - 1783.7s

That's the iconic one, it's literally just time and just getting that, you can't really do it that much anymore. All the fly ass are a lot quicker than they used to be. It used to be just distributors. So like they're catching past and you. They weren't much threat at stepping you or whatever.Like if I tried to do that to Mac PRODUCT, I saw someone like that, it'd have me on toast. But you could time it. So if I could time it around their breakdown and not break my shide by the time they'd pass a ball,

Speaker 81783.78s - 1793.52s

then I knew I could get to the 10 before around when he's going to pass it yeah yeah so yeah i used to do that relatively

Speaker 91793.52s - 1797.5s

regular it's really hard obviously to time and and you got to have the energy to do it as well but but yeah

Speaker 01797.5s - 1803.36s

i've got a few of them if you ever gone into game thinking i'm fucking going for this bloc just like

Speaker 41803.36s - 1808.68s

he's having it i don't think you can i don't think I think if you try to hit somebody

Speaker 91808.68s - 1812s

just because you you wanted to hit them specifically

Speaker 71812s - 1815.8s

like it'd be so rare to get yourself in a good position to actually do that

Speaker 91815.8s - 1848.42s

you have to just take big hits as they come like you can't really plan them so no I unfortunately I'm specifically targeted to anyone although I have I didn't tag him, but I hit Manu, and this is his early days, 2012, 2013, and he's hit a decent iron, but I read it, and I was like, right, this is the one.And I banged him, and he didn't go anywhere, mate. Honestly, I was so flipping this guy's the back. My shoulder's like, on the floor, hanging off. Like, I just like, this guy is a joke um i stopped him so i was

Speaker 01848.42s - 1852.9s

happy with that did your job but i did my job but he didn't he didn't he didn't go anywhere so i was

Speaker 11852.9s - 1864.42s

like oh yeah i'm not doing that again and that's that's actually i did start changing my game where i'd probably just chop the the bigger guys but is it like what what's like the easier

Speaker 71864.42s - 1866.94s

tackle for you if someone just goes like straight at you

Speaker 91866.94s - 1872.16s

or is it like if they're on like a little 45 45 yeah if someone's if someone's coming straight at me

Speaker 71872.16s - 1896s

and they want it and you want to give it to them yeah I'm chopping them I'm sure yeah 100% 100% it's easier to be a good ball carry than it's to be a good tackler I think it's really hard to hit somebody that can go either in or out on you. Do you know what I mean? But the best ones for me are when you're, you know, everyone does 10, 20, 30. So if I'm a 40 defender and their first receiver, you know, you do the little pod.

Speaker 91896.46s - 1914.76s

And if they run into my channel, I'm like, this is perfect. Because they can't, they can't get outside of me. They're only going to run one. And that's when you can just be like, like, there you go. He's running in there and he's getting hit.Do you know what I mean? They're the easy ones. Other than that, I try and air on caution nowadays and try to keep my body in one piece. I'll just get straight as spokes.

Speaker 41915.08s - 1920.3s

You've got to make 20 tackles a game. It's kind of like, if you make 20 big hits a game, probably not going to last that wrong.

Speaker 91920.44s - 1920.56s

No.

Speaker 01921.06s - 1929.14s

It's a question of like, when can I? And also it's like you make a big hit on like someone on the arrowhead carries. You know it's just going to be a collision. So it's like sometimes you want to make a marker's a question of like, when can I? And also it's like you make a big ear on like a someone on the arrowhead carries. You know it's just going to be a collision. So it's like sometimes you want to make a marker.

Speaker 81929.24s - 1935.54s

But you're also like, is it worth breaking my shoulder here for a one yard game, which is just going to kick back to us?

Speaker 01935.62s - 1937.18s

It's like, no, I'll just get them down.

Speaker 91937.32s - 1937.74s

And then like.

Speaker 01937.94s - 1946.76s

Exactly. So it's, yeah. You got pick your battles, especially when you get to our age. With some of your highlight real hits courts, do you ever cast a cheeky eye, the breaker play, you know, when it comes on the stadium screen. Yeah, real hits courts, do you ever cast a cheeky eye, the breaker play, you know,when it comes on the stadium screen?

Speaker 91946.96s - 1961.78s

Yeah, definitely, definitely, 100%. And a lot of the time, so you'll think you've done something unbelievable on the rugby pitch.And you were like, flipping, egg, some carry that. And then you watch you back and you're like,I didn't get anywhere.

Speaker 41962.46s - 1964.1s

That was awful.

Speaker 91964.3s - 1964.9s

You know what I mean?

Speaker 41966.44s - 1974.76s

Yeah. So we have it in like like scrums where it's like, that's an awesome scrum really going. You look back and you've gone forward two inches. And it's like, cool. Why is the crowd not on their feet?

Speaker 81974.88s - 1976.52s

It's like, because I've seen you move forward an inch.

Speaker 61976.96s - 1978.88s

Or it's like you think you're getting hoofed. It's like you've gone backwards to foot.

Speaker 01979s - 1982.26s

You're like, you're like, you're going to go ahead.

Speaker 81982.26s - 1982.96s

That was a good shot.

Speaker 01983.06s - 1986.14s

Yeah. And you watch you back and it's just literally just literally like, two blades just falling over.

Speaker 71987.44s - 1988.46s

It's so true, isn't it?

Speaker 41988.56s - 1989.56s

Will you make a break?

Speaker 71989.64s - 1991.6s

You're like, fucking hell, who'd I skin there?

Speaker 41991.64s - 1993.1s

It's like, and there was actually just no one there.

Speaker 71995.86s - 1997.48s

So, of course, you know, in 17 years in Northampton ORG,

Speaker 41997.8s - 2001.72s

which obviously a long time in rugby, but also in life in general.

Speaker 72001.92s - 2006.02s

How have you found, as we speak at Leicester ORG, we've been there a long time, and sometimes

Speaker 42006.02s - 2022.18s

coming through the gates day and day out, sometimes it's brilliant, other times I feel good when I leave the house, I drive through the gates and I feel my body's in bits, I'm like, how has that changed? But, you know, regards to that, dayand day out for 17 years, it's a long

Speaker 92022.18s - 2097.5s

time. How the fuck are you done it? Yeah, no, no. I've nearly moved only once have I been actually very close, like had a contract in front of me, ready to sign. And that was pre-COVID, a couple of years pre-COVID, I think,2017-2018, when I'm playing very good rugby. I'm a capped lion. I'm obviously very much in the England set up and stuff like that. And I think that you have to be prepared to leave a club, no matter how much you love it,no matter how much you want to be there. Because your career is so finite. And you're always going to take a little bit less to stay at the club you want to be out, and that's fine. But there's got to be a cutoff and you can't let people take the Mick out of you because you're worth what someone's willing to pay.And if the club you're at at the minute and the club you want to be at and not willing to pay that, then you have to be prepared to move. And yeah, I've nearly moved on a couple of occasions. Only one which was actually very close. And I think being at the same club for so long, you get into this routine that's just almost every day is like the kind of same thing. Do you know what I mean?It's like this continual loop forever. And it's somewhat nice, you know?

Speaker 42097.6s - 2101.76s

There's a comfort in definitely knowing there's a safety day in some regards like you turn up,

Speaker 92101.82s - 2106.64s

you know what you can do, you know you sort of place in the like the hierarchy of the structure, you know what you can do. You know, you sort of place in the, like, the hierarchy of the structure.

Speaker 42106.64s - 2108.62s

You know what you can get away with?

Speaker 92108.74s - 2192.38s

You know what you can do? And I quite like that. And knowing what I'm going to get day to day, knowing I can work with the people around me, knowing that they know what I need to perform as well. And that's probably the biggest apprehension I havegoing to a different club, is that I'm looking forward to the lifestyle, I'm looking forward to the change of scenery and the adventure with my family and stuff like that. But I'm wondering and hoping that I can develop the same kind of relationshipwith Breve PERSON whereby they're trying to get the best out of me from a performance side. Like I know they're trying to get the best out of me from a performance side. Like I know they're going to want leadership and insight into various different things and how we can improve the game and become a better team and that's fine. But I hope they're going to allow me to perform how I want to. And you don't know that.You don't know until you get there. And, you know, they might want you to train every session and do everything. And therefore, you know, you might struggle to adapt to that kind of thing. But from what I've spoke to them about so far and we've not got mad into detail about it, but I feel like it should, it should be good. Maybe there's some naivety in that from my side having not left the club or moved at all. But we'll see. And it's two years. And regardless of what happens, man,I'm going to try my honest to enjoy it and embrace it. You know, that's important to me.

Speaker 72192.54s - 2195.3s

The club and the routine, and you almost build up that trust.

Speaker 92195.42s - 2204.62s

That's what it is, isn't it? And I suppose that's what you don't know about Brevis ORG. But it's like when you get there and you say, I'm not going to do that. Can I do this? Because ultimately all it matters is what I do at the weekend.

Speaker 02204.94s - 2231.32s

And will they understand that? Accept that. yeah, accept that when. And will the group accept that. And I think that's the thing. And I think that's the thing with the comforts of, club you've been there. You have these relationships with people. They know what you're about. They know what you can do, what you don't like doing and all that. And it's all sort of catered for and accepted where you go someone new. It's like, you want to embrace it. You want to be a team player. But equally, you almost need to be like, I'll be the ultimate team player on the Saturday.But let me just be a bit selective, especially at our age.

Speaker 92231.42s - 2235.94s

You've also earned it already at your close. Like, we've been there for years, years now. I call it.

Speaker 72235.94s - 2248.32s

You'd have been 18 years now? Yeah, about that. Is this your 18th season? Are you two years old on us? Yeah, I'm 36. It seems to be 37.Right. So you might be like, on 19th season or so, bro. That's serious.

Speaker 82249.84s - 2250.58s

Six scarris.

Speaker 72251.36s - 2251.72s

Literally.

Speaker 82252.16s - 2252.42s

Tick.

Speaker 72253.98s - 2258.32s

But yeah, like you've earned the right to not do the contact sessions.

Speaker 82258.56s - 2259.1s

And do you know what I mean?

Speaker 72259.46s - 2261.82s

And be looked after because you've been through it all before.

Speaker 42262.44s - 2266.06s

Everybody in the club and in the team knows

Speaker 92266.06s - 2267.94s

that you've been there, you've done it, you've earned it,

Speaker 72268.06s - 2270.16s

they know that you know what you need.

Speaker 92270.52s - 2273.26s

Whereas when you go to a new club, we don't know. Do you have to earn the right again?

Speaker 42273.26s - 2284.82s

I think it's a forwarder and say that's credit in the bank where you kind of go that some players been there so long. You don't need to, I know that on the Saturday he's going to stick his head in the 70-night's minute he's going to do his job and dig in. I don't need to see it.

Speaker 02286.46s - 2326.76s

You're saying fitness because I know he's going to be ready. But it's also like sometimes you have a, especially in the Saturday, he's going to stick his head in the 17-9th minute. He's going to do his job and dig in. I don't need to see it. You're saying fitness because I know he's going to be ready. But it's also like sometimes you have a, especially in the pack, is you want to prove to each other that I think that's probably one thing he's going to. I need to prove to this person. And even if they're like 20 years old, so I need to prove that I'm willing to muck in and do what needs to be done. So I say it's almost like the personal guilt of when you miss a fitness session or miss a fitness session. You're're a bit like and you have to teach yourself it's like your brother for instance first one to throw himself on a Tuesday morning he's got no knee or shoulder ever it's like just place to pull him outbut it's like no I need to do it like because this is what I do and you know whereas I say a club when you've been there a long time you have that credit and everyone knows I know he's going to throw himself in there you'd hope or you would think that a club would go look we have an asset now what's he need let's make the most out of him because it is, you know,

Speaker 92326.92s - 2339.7s

but at the same time you have to prove yourself to them. You feel like you have to, yeah, you do have to kind of prove yourself again. And I think that's just that we are like natured and whatnot. But, but yeah, yeah, it'll be interesting. It'll be interesting.

Speaker 72340.04s - 2343.7s

That's probably going to make you almost, like you say, like we spoke about never being satisfied.

Speaker 92343.86s - 2357.3s

You're going to go there and it's like, well, I'm going to fucking show you. Like, I'm going to show you lot. And like you just walk in the room is enough. But actually, if in your head, you're like, no, I'm going to, I'll show you. Like, you obviously hope you get looked after the right way. But you're going to be like, I'm going to be like, I'm going to be like,I'm going to be like, I'm about.

Speaker 42357.76s - 2368.72s

So I've just realised, actually, we haven't asked one question. We've been so engrossed. We haven't asked one question from any of the listeners. So, um, courts, could you stand for a bit and we'll, um, do a whole other episode on you?

Speaker 72368.72s - 2377.44s

We'll have a Courtney Laws week this week. Fantastic. Right, Courtney's going to stick around. And what we're going to do is our normal Q&A that happens. Thursday, we're going to do that with Courtney.

Speaker 42377.96s - 2399.46s

Fantastic plan, Ben PERSON. Couldn't think about anything better, mate. For the love of rugby. If you want to drop us a line, get involved with our socials. Just search for at Love of Rugby ORG. And if you've listened to all our episodes and need another podcast,go and find Joe Marler's Things People Do WORK_OF_ART. For the Love of Rugby is ad-free on Amazon Music ORG. If you listen on an Apple, you get it ad-free for one pound a week. See you next time.