Technical Rescue Tactics and Equipment Then and Now

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and all that kind of stuff. He runs the, he runs the classroom team. But the reason I wanted to talk to him today was Kevin PERSON, and I'm going to ask him to explain a little more about his background in a minute. He's a retired lieutenant from the FDNY. He spent a bit of his career on Rescue 1 PRODUCT. He has stayed, even though he's retired from FDNY ORG, he's stayed abreast of all the latest rescue techniques. He is still a trainer of technical rescue. And that's what I wanted to talk to him about today.You know, we're rolling into FDIC here, Kevin PERSON. We're going to see a ton of equipment, a ton of new stuff. And there is a lot. And I find this, you know, in my own, my own background, you know, 30 years ago when I first joined a fire service, and I'm sorry,

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I'm jumping around a little bit here, but 30 years ago when I joined the fire service,

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we still did a lot of stuff. I don't know if the right term would be manually, but there is a lot of equipment out there today that helps us be more efficient on the fire ground because it's taking a lot of the guesswork out for us, the units themselves, but also, you know, the way we carry it. A lot of it is pre-rigged. I'm sure back in, back when you were at FDMI ORG, you guys were more advanced than that

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than a lot of places just by virtue of the type of responses that you have. But before we get

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started with all of that, for those who may not know who you are, who aren't familiar with

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your background, let's just introduce yourself and let us know a little bit about you. My name is

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Kevin and thanks, Chris PERSON. Good to see you again.

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We've been doing this a long time.

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Longer than we think sometimes.

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Oh, dang, brother.

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Beets the alternative.

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I'm happy to still be here.

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Yeah, retired from FDNY ORG earlier than I had wanted to. I had an accident, had a fire, it had to go eventually and miss it terribly. So I never left the field. I have a couple of hats. I still do the technical rescue training. Back in the day, back in the early 90s,while I was still active with FDNY ORG, I worked for Roco for a while based in Baton Rouge GPE.

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And then after I retired, I went to work for spec rescue. It was with them for quite a while. And Baton Rouge GPE and then after I retired I went to work for spec rescue was with them for quite a while and then moved to Montana GPE and start my own small company in addition to that was a manufacturer's rep for Scott and Lyon ORG and now perimeter solutions and you just when you leave the

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fire service before you want to it's like it leaves a hole in your heart, you just keep trying to fill it.

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But the reason for more technical rescue than firefighting is I think that you should, well, be a student of the job, as they say, constantly forever.

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At the same time, for myself, I don't feel comfortable teaching something

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if I'm not still doing it.

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So I enjoy firefighting more than a technical rescue,

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but it's been a long time since I actually fought fires.

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And although some of the training props are excellent,

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they've really come a long way. For myself, there's certain things that you need an experienced firefighter there to teach it. For example, if I'm crawling down one of these containers that they've turned into a firefighting unit, they've done a great job.The smoke machines are bad than they ever were. You know, the heat, they can get hot. They can shut their heat down like that in an emergency, so it's safer. And I can take a kid and keep telling that guy or that girl, you know, check the floor before you go further. Or make sure the ceiling is intact, whatever. And you're saying these things, but you know that the floor in this container is never going to give way,

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right? So it's almost like you go through the motion, okay, tap the floor and then go. But we

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operate like we practice. And in the back of my mind, I know that if I'm not really concerned about the floor giving way. One example, I'm not going to be as sharp as if I was on top of that all the time. So how do you stay sharp? You stay sharp by doing it. So although I could tell the kid, well, make sure you check the floor before you go. Before you go in a window, check the floor. But if I'm not checking the floor myself, because I have not been in fires for a long time, it's almost like you're going through the motion, but the urgency isn't there. And Idon't want to train somebody to do something wrong. With the tech rescue, the way you can

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stay current is, well, for example, if I do a trench, I practice trench rescue all the time,

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every trench I'm doing is a live trench, it's the same as if it was the real world. When I'm doing confined space drills, which is a favorite now, wasn't back the day. Now I've embraced it, I enjoy it much more, some of the rope work. I can drill, I can make a drill very realistic, exactly like the real world. And I like that, where firefighting, I can't.

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So that's why I've gravitated towards tech rescue more than firefighting the last 20 years. So you'll have to excuse me here. I wrote down my questions here for you.

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So thank you very much for the background.

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And, you know, it is interesting when you talk about, you know, when you leave before you want to.

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It's terrible. It's terrible. But it's great that you've been able to stay involved. thing when you talk about, you know, when you leave before you want to.

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It's terrible.

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It's terrible.

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But it's great that you've been able to stay involved in the way that you have, not only coming here to Indy every year, but also, you know, just staying on the training side of things.

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Because, you know, and we're going to get into your training philosophy in a little bit.

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But, you know, there is always, there are always, it's funny, a couple of minutes ago, I said, you know,

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we did things a little bit more manually back then, but then you could also make an argument

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that those are the basics, and you always have to go back down to those basics, you know, when you're doing it. But before, you know, and I don't want to get into, you know, like, you know, all the gory aspects of everything. But you were in Rescue 1 in the FD&Y that's based in Manhattan GPE.

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A lot of different types. I mean, we've talked about, you know, just over dinner sometimes, some of the interesting incidents that you responded to during your career that, you know, are completely foreign to me just based on the calling area, you know, that you, that you were in.

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And we were talking about fires back then. But talk about some of the types. You don't have to get into, I mean, if you want to, hey, you know, go for, you know, give any examples you want. You don't have to get into each and every one. But talk about some of the responses that you would have made back then that required those technical rescue skills now we're going to get into a bit about how how things have changed up until today or maybe

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how they haven't well um i'm trying to think of an example whether i like it or not sometimes when known from certain incidents people get typecast like that's who that guy is just that.

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So an example for rope rescue,

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we have a roof rope rescue evolution. That was just performed recently.

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And they interviewed a young guy, a probie, I think he was,

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either just off probation or probation. To see Chief Hodgins PERSON standing next to the young guy, a probie, I think he was, either just off probation or probation. To see Chief Hodgins standing next to the young guy, and I apologize for not known his name, but I didn't know this would be the question. It looked like a proud dad watching his son, and the kid was spot on everything he said. I was so proud, and I'm watching it with my dad is still alive, we're watching the news clip, and he's so proud. It just was wonderful. So using that evolution, that young guy just performed, it's very fast and it's very efficient.But it's just the rope. When I was involved, it's just the rope around the guy. It's a static line. It's not dynamic.

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There's no pull to it.

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Rope around the fireman to the guy lowering him. He goes down, picks the victim up, and goes down to the next floor and gets brought back in. Well, it's extremely efficient and extremely fast. It works great at certain circumstances. Out of fire where there's no other choice. But out of fire where there's no other choice is actually very rare. It's usually, you know, why was I using the same evolution to try and save a window washerwith scaffolding slipped or a guy is working on a marquee over a movie theater and he falls and breaks his wrist, you guy can sit

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there for five hours if you have to. Why am I using this evolution that is so fast and

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efficient, but no second line, no attachment to victim to the rescuer and all, unless they have changed something from back in the day. That's what it was.

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So when I was in Rescue 1, we were first starting to go outside the department.

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And although that evolution was spot on, we realized the need, probably other people had done it too for other situations. And I don't know if I'm jumping around, Chris PERSON.

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No, you're good.

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But there's also hard to believe, but a lot of firefighters, probably more than men than the women. Is there a rumor that they have an ego?

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I haven't seen it myself, brothers and sisters. I'm not saying if I'm not having ego, but I've heard that. The firefighters have an ego.

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So in FDNY ORG, we were always a very closed shop. We felt that we knew everything. The fact that we were getting a lot of experience in everything doesn't mean there's other tips that we can't pick up from somebody else. So early 90s, working for Roco PERSON, initially started by some retired state troopers from Louisiana GPE, and there had a lot of cops working for them and some firemen. I learned a lot that I had not been exposed to.Later on, spec rescue in Virginia Beach, 400 men department. You can't say my department's 10,000 members. They have nothing to show me. It's BS. Went down, they learned a lot. Also, before I was a firefighter, I was an underground lineman for the Long Island GPE lighting company, and we were using ropes and pulleys in different ways all along, just not for ahuman load. So you've got to be able to take from other places, and will they say take what you need and leave the rest?

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And again, that applies to this podcast.

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This stuff is just my opinion, you know,

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and it doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. It just means that you should listen to everybody, and then you decide and take what works for your target hazards wherever you are,

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and just ignore what I have to say. It worked for me, but it might not work for the next guy. So it's just my opinion. But yeah, that was a big learning curve for me in the tech rescue. I like to keep things basic and be open to seeing things in other areas. Also, I'm retired from FDNY ORG for a long time. So if I say something, here's what I did back at work, that might have changed since I left FDNY ORG.So don't go by me and ask somebody what's going on FDNY ORG? That's more current there than I am.

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As you said, it's been a while since you did,

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and you just cited some examples about, you know, you just said, you know, they might be doing it a little differently now,

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but based on, so you went back, so going back to maybe,

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maybe around the time you started a spec rescue, you know, between then, or R on, so, so you went back, so going back to maybe, maybe around the time you started a spec rescue, you know, between then, or Roco PERSON, between then and now, what are some

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of the things that have changed on the technical rescue side in terms of the tactics?

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Like when you go to teach, teach a class at a department or they come to you, what are some of the tactics that have changed, if any, and how, and how is the equipment change?

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Tactics are equipment. Tactics are tough to talk about sometimes because, first of all, somebody's targeted hazard at one place might be different than another. FDNY ORG had a tremendous amount of manpower.Since I left FDNY ORG, I'm teaching, so I have as much manpower as I want. I get more students if I need to move something.

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I ain't moving those whales and panels anymore on trench up too freaking old I make a kid do it, you know? So, you know, all kidding aside

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tactics and procedures. I can suggest depend on how many people you have what to do You know you go down a checklist, you know monitoring here having somebody do this having somebody do that for a confined space So is stuff being done simultaneously? you have the manpower or is it have to be done in order, but you can't break, you know, certain tasks have to be done. A lot of departments will be, it's got to be done in order. I was like, no, it's done simultaneously because I had the manpower.So the classes have to adjust to the students how they operate, you know. Equipment has changed. And I'm a big proponent of back-to-basics,

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but for several reasons.

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Also, it's what worked for me. Now, I'm probably not the sharpest tool in the shed, so all I can tell you is my gigabytes were maxed out sometimes, and this is what worked for me. Now, I'm probably not the sharpest tool in the shed. So all I can tell you is my gigabytes were maxed out sometimes, and this is what worked for me. Other people, maybe that's sharper. They can do whatever.But rope, let's say, right?

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So you get into the dynamics and the construction of rope,

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and you look at this and that. And basically, like we would say, vehicle extrication is a game of angles where I'm putting the car to the spread. It's all angles on the car.Rope is really a game of friction. So we would always have, like, the figure eight, which has been around forever. And you could see how the rope went through the figure eight. Then they came out with the figure eight with ears or the rescue figure eight. So you didn't accidentally make a girth hitch.

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The rope came around. Most people would understand that.

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Then late 80s, early 90s, Iraq GPE was new. I don't know what year it came out, but the repel rack was fairly new.

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Now that you don't even see that. It's like it would be in a museum. And I hate when they say that

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because that's reflecting on me whatever but the thing about Iraq GPE compared to let's say like mpd

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you'll watch somebody that's not familiar with an mpd not struggle the that particular brand the diagram is inside way to put the rope it people look they don't it's not right there

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intuitive until they open it up, slide the side plate and whatever, do it, you've got to do, right? It's great. With the rack and the figure eight, you could see it was all friction, like the bars on the rack. When you first are handed a rack and you go to use it with the rope, guys are, you know, you could spread the bars on the rack. When you first are handed a rack and you go to use it with the rope, guys are, you know, you could spread the bars. You're familiar with the, with the rack, right?

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Okay, I hope everybody is. It has those little bars and ropes going back and forth, back and forth.

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Sometimes when you first are headed the rack, if you're not familiar with the rope, the people are squeezing the bars together to slow themselves down. They think they're

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squeezing the rope. They're not. As you're sliding those bars up, you're changing the angle of the rope. It's giving it more surface, more friction.

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So you could be mistaken to think

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that I'm squeezing the rope, what I'm actually doing is adding more friction. That's why you can kick a bar off the rack

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and change how many bars you got on it.

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The figure eight, you could see the friction,

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which goes through the eight.

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You get into the clutch and the MPD and these other devices, which are better, more efficient, easier to use, can do more functions. But your eye is not catching exactly how the friction goes. So you say, well, what's the difference, Kevin PERSON?Given a confined space drill out in Billings GPE, Montana. Those guys were dialed in. Billings, the fire department was great. Actually, my friend Matt Hopper, one of the chiefs is coming out today. And what I had them do is go down at a water treatment plant, go down a manhole to make a retrieval. But of course, you got complicated because that's too simple. They went down, have them on supplied air.So they have the hard line. Add the extra rope. Guys argue, do I need the rope, you know, the ballet line? Do I need this? Load them up with the ropes. Because the line management is a difficult partof the confined space drill. So I'd rather you had a worse situation during your drill. If you dump a safety line in the real deal, I'm not watching, you know, do what you got to do. The drill should be harder than real life when you can. That's my philosophy. So OSHA says like two points of contact. Well, if one point of contact is the latter, and then one point of contact's one rope, I only need one line because I'm not repelling, you know, free falling.So I get down. A lot of guys would say, well, do I really need this other safety line? I'm on the ground. I don't even debate that. I just put as many lines and airlines and comms lines on them as I can to make it a real pain in the buttso that they're practicing manipulating these lines. Now they went down a tunnel. It was long, tunnel maybe 50 yards, 40 yards, over these big pipes over and under them. And what I did was I took a mannequin and I had the line go as if it went down the manhole About 50 yards over and under big pipes then back up a small to a small landing and then the guy collapsed after he'd gone all the way back up Bomb line was couldn't get a tripod there was impossibleSo what I did to simulate it because I don't like when you make your simulation too ridiculous, you know, UFO crashes into nuclear power plant. Everybody's heard that BS before. It's like, whatever. Like the instructor shows his lack of real world experience by pulling stuff out of his butt, you know.But for a worker to go down, go through this long maze and go up to grease a valve to maintain something to take a reading off a meter very possible not like possible it's happening all over the country all the time so the rescue rescuer goes down with all his lines on pain the butt goes through his long maze 50 yards goes back up half of flight, and now he's got the mannequin. They're heavy, 200-pound mannequin. So he's looking, how am I going to lower this guy?It was only about 8 foot, right? So I'm not saying anything I'm watching him, I'm watching him, but the drills should progress positively. I don't have a guy fail. And you could see it. Now he's stressed stressed it was hot I'm like you got the railing right there wrap the railing four timeswe want to roll lower them down but we when we drill we're thinking I got to have the tripod I have to do everything perfectly where's my device where's my MPD where's my this where's my that so you don't need man. Wrap that railing a couple times. If three is not enough, wrap the fourth time, you know? Whatever. And so I know it sounds silly, but when I'm doing the drills, if I stress the people enough,without overdoing it, bring them up to their limit, people don't think. It's got to be rope memory. When something's going wrong, you have to have your basic evolution down. So my gigabytes, the few that are left, are free for the variables. If I have to think of every little step, I'm not going to be able to perform when I'm stressed. So that's one of the reasons I like to bring everything really back down tobasics. MPD's clutches and all are great, but I wish we would still incorporate racks

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or other, you know, figure eights into our drills. I don't see them anymore. I don't know if that

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makes sense. Yeah, sure. At least for the theory end of it. You know what I mean? Like so that,

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you know, you can go through the, through the friction, the theory of what is happening in the newer device that you can't see because it's all covered up versus, you know, what you can see on the rack or with that or with that figure eight.

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That might seem like common sense to a lot of people and yet I see it missed when the people are stressed, you know.

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Well, and that's that's it too. You know, I often talk about, you know, most of the time, I haven't had a chance on this podcast yet to get into the rescue end of things.

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Most of the time I'm talking about firefighting and pump.

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There's a thousand rescue guys out here this week because you can catch as many opinions, and most of them are going to differ. Well, I talk about muscle memory, especially like with pump operations.

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Very point.

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And one of the chief engineers that trained me early on when I was first getting qualified on our trucks,

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was he said, just come into the firehouse sometime when nobody else is here and just go through the motions,

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just go through the motions of what you're going to do once you put the truck in gear,

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to get water out of the truck. And then it really, it just becomes muscle memory after a while.

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And I was going to ask you, like, what, I guess you just said how important it is, but there is a lot of muscle memory to this as well.

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Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It's funny, you bring that up about MPO. And my dad told me a story a long time ago in the Bronx GPE, where Chief PERSON got rattled. I don't know the whole...I don't want to get too particular. But there were jumpers, and I don't want to name the companies or anybody. Long story shut, there was some jumpers and the chiefs yelling, covering chief, yelling at the chauffeur to attend to one of the victims that just jumped. And the chauffeur didn't, didn't do it.It's a cam. I'm pumping, you know, somebody else do it. And it was just one of those spot things where the chauffeur was very experienced in South Bronx, was burning back in the 70s.

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And he had his, you know, wits about him the whole time, kept working and covering guy that maybe,

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I don't know, I'm not judging it, you know, but lost his composure for a moment and

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was going to take the chauffeur away from his duties to attend to a guy who just jumped out

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a window.

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Well, war jumpers came, and EMS came, everybody else came, but the MPO can't leave what he's

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doing if he's in the process of putting rigging pumps, you know.

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So, you know, muscle memory, I guess, experience.

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And we can't completely, you know, compensate for a lack of experience. Lack of experience is a wonderful thing because it means the community is not suffering.

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Right.

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Who wants to be going to fires all day long?

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It sounds like fun, but somebody's, you know,

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suffering terribly to community. And life is better, smoke detectors, fire prevention, everything is better. Across the board, I would say. In turn, our incidents are less across the board I would say in turn our incidents are less across the board so we have to drill more and we have to make our drills asrealistic as we can we have to drill hard but one of the things I see with Tech Rescue ORG is somebody can specialize in real specialize specialize in confined space, specialize in trench. They get narrow-minded. They're excellent at what they do. They may know more about each one of those individual modalities, disciplines than I do. But although it's less often because things have calmed down, thank God PERSON. You could have a fire.

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I mean, this would happen in Rescue One PRODUCT.

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We had a... We didn't have a technical rescue per se. Was it vehicle extrication? It was a little bit complicated. It was no big deal. Structural fire.And then we were diving all within one night tour. Oh, jeez. So, you know, am I like some expert Navy SEAL ORG frogman and then some, you know, metallurgist from those cars? And now, I'm the firefighter, right? So remember when you're an instructor, if you pick a discipline that you're passionate about, one particular discipline, you should knowas much about that discipline as you can to teach your students everything you can. But remember that they may have more than one function, more than one duty, especially some of the

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volatility of fire departments. They're spread so thin. How much can a guy drill? No, you never know who's

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common. So you never know if that ropes guy is going to be there.

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Right.

Speaker 31667.38s - 1698.98s

So I'm big, like if you're going to use that as an example, remember we were awareness ops technician level. Yeah. Then for a while, it seemed to get away from it. It was level one, level two. Remember that?And luckily, that's gone. I think we're back to awareness ops technician. And those definitions, NFPA, you'll come out with a different standard. They'll vary what you can actually do in each one. But basically, you get the idea, you might not need, depending on,people are probably throwing stuff at the screen right now.

Speaker 21699.06s - 1700.56s

Don't agree with me, whatever.

Speaker 31702.44s - 1708.48s

You need one or two technicians of each discipline if you can in the firehouse, but you need strong operations level training.

Speaker 11709.08s - 1713.44s

You know, how many people are going to do a dual track high line and a rope rescue?

Speaker 31714.02s - 1768.62s

I used to think it was nonsense to even teach it, but I was wrong. I see when you do teach something like that, all the other rope skills that it revolved to make it happen. But I don't even know what a cootney carriage costs anymore. People can't afford the equipment to do this. Also, rope in particular is really a perishable skill.If you don't drill it all the time, you're going to get weak. You're going to lose it. In some departments, maybe this will sound, I don't know, counterproductive the FDIC ORG, but maybe your department shouldn't even take on the task. There's no law out there that says every rural fire department has to have a confined space team. Don't do it, you know, drill on some of the stuff to a point, but don't do it. Once you commit yourself, in my mind, you're that team, you tell the local sheriff,

Speaker 11768.74s - 1770.88s

you tell the county, whatever, you could get called for it.

Speaker 31771.64s - 1779.08s

You can't say, I don't know how to do it now when you show up. So be careful, you know, don't bite off more than you can chew, I guess I'd say.

Speaker 01779.34s - 1788.52s

Speaking of that kind of thing, though, you were, you didn't say it, but you were, you were indicating, I mean,

Speaker 31788.58s - 1800.9s

these are high risk, low frequency type of type of thing. You have to drill, you have to drill, you have to drill. How do you, what, do you have any suggestions or, well, just, I mean,

Speaker 11800.9s - 1808.9s

how do you maintain the enthusiasm for the training because it's going to be a long time, it's probably going to come. I mean, how do you maintain the enthusiasm for the training? Because it's going to be a long time. It's probably going to come.

Speaker 01809s - 1813.66s

I mean, the chances are eventually what you're training for you will get to use those skills.

Speaker 11814.1s - 1818.32s

But, you know, I have heard it.

Speaker 01818.32s - 1822.96s

It doesn't happen often, you know, because the guys who are into this are the guys who are into it.

Speaker 31823.34s - 1824.88s

The guys who are only kind of halfway.

Speaker 11825.32s - 1826.22s

You know, you got to be in it.

Speaker 31826.26s - 1843.84s

Yes. But how do you maintain, how do you help maintain the enthusiasm for the drills? Yes. To keep them going so that they will be ready because, you know, it's not, it, I understand the, the concept of, oh, my God, we're doing this again.

Speaker 11843.84s - 1850.32s

You know, and then it's like, but, you know, just reinforcing, look, this is, this is high risk, low frequency.

Speaker 31850.62s - 1888.1s

Yes. You know, there's going to come a point when these skills that we're drilling on are going to be used somewhere where it's a waiting game sometimes. But, you know, how do you maintain that enthusiasm during the training for the guys who, or the men and women who might be thinking like, oh god not again we're doing this yes well well two things that you mentioned how do you stay proficient but how do you maintain the enthusiasm and actually they're twoseparate things it's easier i think like for me being retired a long time uh it's harder for me because what i feel is you have to incorporate these skills into your life.

Speaker 11888.6s - 1889.94s

They have to be a part of your life.

Speaker 31890.34s - 1921.1s

Hence why all through all the disciplines, I keep them basic as basic as possible. Because I'm laughing, you know, because I do stupid crap at home all the time. I have a couple of fishing kayaks. I have them rigged.You know, every month I change how they're rigged hanging from my barn. I'm using rope, you know, systems that I don't need. I wouldn't have, you know, whatever it'll be. Plus I'm getting older, so it's hard, little niff crap. Anyway, I keep doing stuff like that. I have suspended my pet goats from a rope

Speaker 01921.1s - 1931.44s

to try and trim their hooves. They hate when I walk out to the barn when I rope on my hand. And I do silly things like that all the time. I think you have to

Speaker 31931.44s - 1937.5s

live this stuff for myself. So of course, in the firehouse, you don't have to tie up your goat

Speaker 11937.5s - 1942.94s

or suspend your fishing kayak from the roof, from the ceiling. But you have more opportunity

Speaker 31942.94s - 1998.7s

to drill. A big way of doing it for me is to overlap my disciplines, overlap my drills. Don't stay in your lane, mix it up. A vehicle, a confiant space, a rope, a trench, two or three disciplines, and throw your dummy into a position your mannequin, that it incorporates more than one discipline. And that's when they have to think. And if they're going to use some rope on the side of a sandy-type trench or, you know, more dynamic ground that's moving, where am Igoing to anchor to? What am I going to do? You know, and then you have to think about it. Am I going to get a high point? How am I going to get a high point? I think that's the thing is stick that mannequin, get the 200-pounder, stick that mannequin in the most bizarre positions, and then use the disciplines that you've outlined ahead of your drill

Speaker 01998.7s - 2006.88s

to move that mannequin around. That's how I would do it. You know, that's what I do it. As far as keeping your

Speaker 32006.88s - 2012.46s

enthusiasm and your motivation, dude, if you don't like it, the bar swings both ways, man,

Speaker 22012.46s - 2019.68s

get out. I got nothing for you. That's why you signed up to be a firefighter. Do it or don't do it,

Speaker 32019.68s - 2023.76s

you know? Yeah, seriously, if you wanted to join the team, this is what's expected of you.

Speaker 02023.76s - 2030.98s

Yeah, but actually, you know, you could actually take that to the leaders on the team.

Speaker 32031.26s - 2031.46s

Yes.

Speaker 02031.46s - 2038.78s

You know, if they don't set the expectations right out of the gate that it's like, look, you've joined the team, we are going to drill on this.

Speaker 22038.92s - 2042.68s

You can, for something like this, when it happens, you have to be on your game.

Speaker 02043.06s - 2044.9s

You have to be able to do this.

Speaker 12045.16s - 2060.48s

The only way we're going to be able to do that, because it's not like going to fires, although fires are down in most places, but it's not like you just don't have the frequency of doing it where you develop the muscle memory or you just develop the internal knowledge of just knowing almost

Speaker 02060.48s - 2077.04s

what's going to happen before it happens and being able to to to to to to to plan for it you know when we when we get on to the technical rescue stuff I mean you know the every every trench is going to present a different challenge you know just like I

Speaker 32077.04s - 2081.58s

mean you know and even you know any low angle or even any high angle rescue is going to have

Speaker 02081.58s - 2088.7s

unique challenges every single time but then you go back to those basics and the way you go back to those basics is that you've been drilling on them all

Speaker 32088.7s - 2093.5s

along, even though you didn't get to use the skills right away. Right. You know, and that sometimes

Speaker 12093.5s - 2098.34s

is actually, you know, somewhat of the leadership of the special rescue team or something to say,

Speaker 02098.4s - 2103.92s

you know, if this is a problem, hey, no problem. Yes. Just, okay, you know, I get it. You know,

Speaker 22103.96s - 2105.56s

this just isn't for you. But this is what you're going to be expected to do. And it Just, okay, you know, I get it. You know, this just isn't for you.

Speaker 02107.5s - 2112.46s

But this is what you're going to be expected to do. And it's going to, it might, you know, I'm sure like, you know, you guys were running

Speaker 12112.46s - 2125.18s

to such unique stuff often enough where, you know, kind of kept it. But, you know, for the teams that are, that don't, that just don't see it as much. But it's interesting, you know, because, you know, I'm just, as we're talking,

Speaker 02125.26s - 2129.54s

I'm thinking of my community. Yes. You know, and I'm, I'm in a suburb, in a suburb of Philadelphia GPE,

Speaker 12129.54s - 2137.18s

but it is older, you know. Yes. The infrastructure is older. And, you know, we get, you know,

Speaker 02137.24s - 2142.32s

talking about, like, technical rescue type of things, we get trees. We get trees into buildings.

Speaker 12142.32s - 2156.46s

We get trees into houses that, I mean, like, these are massive 100-year-old trees that are coming down and trapping people. And that becomes a very, you know. Yes, absolutely. It becomes a very technical type of rescue.

Speaker 02156.58s - 2173.38s

In fact, I mean, just recently, I don't know what it's been, but I'm in Pennsylvania, the PA Turnpike FAC. There's this one interchange near me. And I've heard there have been two that have gone off the ramps recently. Just one the other day. Went 100 feet in the air, down.

Speaker 12173.62s - 2177.38s

You know, now he's down in the ravine next to the off ramp.

Speaker 32177.54s - 2217.1s

So I don't know, I got off onto a tangent there. Sorry. No, this is good. So like also if you become more proficient in rope let's say for one example you'll use the rope more often so the rope when people look at ropes if they're not practicing well my partner my training company used to say this uh john campbell he'd say that the rope is not theproblem the rope is the solution and the new students look at the rope is this is the problem we have to learn how to do this and that. And he's like, no, man. The rope's the solution. How can it help me? So I go to a rural area, you know, and cars down a slope, down a ravine,whatever you would say, off the road, down.

Speaker 12218.3s - 2219.06s

Manpower is short.

Speaker 32219.9s - 2264.06s

Bystanders will stop, want to help often. Some PD will come. They're not training exactly what you do. They want to help often. Some PD will come. They're not training in exactly what you do. They want to be helpful. Well, let's say I throw a guy in a Stokes PRODUCT, right? I've got a couple of guys and girls.My other firefighters lift the Stokes PRODUCT up. And they're trying to come up a hill, a muddy hill, right? Well, would you use ropes? They're like, well, I'm going to have to set up some big complicated system. There's no time. Let's just do this, right? Well, I'll tell you what. What if I well, we're going to have to set up some big complicated system. There's no time. Let's just do this.Well, I'll tell you what. What if I just take the rig to the edge of the ravine, take the bumper, but two pulleys on the front of the bumper, tie a rope or bridle to the top of the Stokes PRODUCT. Rope comes up to one pulley, the other pulley, and down. Just take four bystanders. Hey, pick up that rope and walk downhill.

Speaker 22268.24s - 2281.72s

Now they still have to hold the Stokes PRODUCT, of course, off the ground, but it's being pulled up for you up the slope. Boom, rope system. Sure. One to one, right? But why not?If you're not drilling, that may sound stupid or so basic, why even having that on your podcast,

Speaker 32285.76s - 2298.88s

if you're not going to the rope as a solution on a regular basis, you're not going to opt for it in places that are that simple. If you're opting for a rope all the time, you'll become more proficient when something more complicated that requires the rope. You'll be ready to perform.

Speaker 02299.9s - 2301.14s

That's how I look at that. Always be thinking.

Speaker 32301.3s - 2302.12s

Yeah. Always be thinking.

Speaker 02302.58s - 2312.88s

Is there getting back to some of the, you know, we talked about some of the progression, and we only really referred to one of them, but it was like the RAC, the Figure

Speaker 32312.88s - 2316.32s

8 and now, these other, these other, MPDs, clutches, and what have you, yes.

Speaker 02318.4s - 2358.64s

Maybe it's one of them, maybe it's not, but do you, in your experience over the, you know, I guess we're getting into, you know, 25 years or so, has there been one innovation in that area that you're thinking like, boy, that one really changed things when it came out. And, you know, that it just made the techniques easier. You know, I mean, it could even be,it doesn't even have to be like a product. I mean, the innovation could be, I don't know, I mean, we pre-rig our four to ones in my firehouse

Speaker 32358.64s - 2363.74s

and they're in a bag and it's, you know, like, it's ready to go as soon as we need it.

Speaker 12363.74s - 2370.04s

But we all know how to do like a Z-rig using one of those new products that, you know.

Speaker 32370.14s - 2380.12s

So, like, has there been anything that you can think of that's been like, man, that's really made the rescuer's life easier? All those devices we named, the NMPD PRODUCT and a clutch, absolutely.

Speaker 02380.98s - 2386.26s

I just like to keep the basics incorporated with it so people understand the principles behind it,

Speaker 32386.34s - 2403.78s

but spot-on pieces of equipment. The set of fours where you get your four-to-one and your progress captures in there, you don't have to have another device or another process to capture the progress. That's a big one.It's been several.

Speaker 12404.02s - 2405.78s

It's all really steps.

Speaker 32405.98s - 2442.88s

We were saying before it started the podcast, you have to remember when you see a lot of this stuff, this equipment. And again, just my opinion, this is in my mind, we're taking things from industry,industrial stuff, and from the sporting world. And so companies like, you know, Rogelis and DBIer PRODUCT and all heavy safety equipment um i like it spot on rock solid stuff but it's not mobile not flexible and they'll make a uh you've seen the um not the tripod but the arm that comes up high point anchor on a big heavy base

Speaker 12442.88s - 2452.32s

it may have rollers on it you could move it from one manhole or whatever to another but it's not portable it's it's movable not portable i can't put on the rig

Speaker 32452.32s - 2533.34s

right right stuff like that but i like it it's super strong heavy easy to use and then we go to the sporting world ropes and pulle these names like rock exotica you You know, they come in purple and green with polka dots and crap like that. Super lightweight, super high performance. From the rock climbing world, mountaineering world, whatever, right? Well, very flexible, good stuff. A lot of the rock climbers and mountain climbers and all are great at rigging up complicated things.But they're by themselves. They're getting themselves from one place to another. And it can perform a rescue. But it's not like two guys, you know, two attendants on a little lower. You've got the patient. Two more.No. We're looking at a world. We're trying to get the flexibility, the lightweight and high performance of the sporting world with the rock solid, you know, heavy duty of the industrial world, and we have to find a compromise between the both. And that's where I see a lot of the products.When you come here to FDIC ORG, there's a tremendous amount of great ideas, and usually they're not really new ideas. Some people will say, oh, I heard about that from an all-time way. We're thinking of the ideas, but we can't put them in place, right? So every year when you come to a big, huge conference like this,

Speaker 02536.78s - 2550.26s

you can see the steps getting closer and closer manufacturers to where they really nail that sweet spot and I've gotten the flexibility and the high performance, but the rock-solid and the two, two worlds come together. And I think that's where our best rescue tools come from.

Speaker 32551.02s - 2553.34s

That's across the board in all the disciplines, you know.

Speaker 02553.88s - 2557.66s

Well, we cover, I think, a lot on the technical rescue.

Speaker 32557.96s - 2562.78s

And we talked a bit about the equipment or anything. But I also wanted to catch up with you. I haven't seen you in here. Yes, yes.

Speaker 02563.12s - 2574.9s

What are you up to these days? You're doing the training, but you've got some other things you're working on as well. Yes. Yeah, trying to stay in a fire service. I miss it so much.

Speaker 32576.24s - 2588.08s

Ben, have my small training company, Glacier Rescue Solutions ORG. Most small training companies, we teach all the disciplines and whatever, if I'm weak and something,

Speaker 02588.14s - 2590.88s

I just bring one of my friends in from the East Coast LOC that was strong.

Speaker 32591s - 2591.92s

You know, you got to stay current.

Speaker 02592.72s - 2600.22s

And so basically in almost all these small companies, confined space is what keeps the lights on

Speaker 32600.22s - 2645.14s

for a company because industry is required by OSHA ORG to have it, whether it's a standby team, whether it's some training, whether it's a response, you know, I'm not going to get into every OSHA ORG regulation on permit required or non-permit required, but basically to support a company confined space is really the only one that's mandatory. Trench work is supposed to be mandatory by OSshman ORG. Companies do it or they don't.They're not getting inspected because it's on the spot, not a factory, it's constantly got permanent quiet entry. So I keep my hand in that. I'm still the rep now for perimeter solutions, which is they make both foam, Foschek PRODUCT foam, and they make the retardant.

Speaker 12645.7s - 2647.88s

You would say the orange stuff that drops out of planes.

Speaker 02648.38s - 2650.88s

We're trying to show people that it can be ground applied.

Speaker 12651.24s - 2660.82s

Okay. Because it's a preventive measure. It's an extinguishing agent, but also a protective agent. So you can apply it ahead of time.

Speaker 32661.62s - 2680.74s

We're getting all that woo-wee wooie they call the wildland urban interface. The loss is mostly in Northern California LOC, have been devastating. So they've got me on that for now, and I've been doing some work back in FDNY ORG, going back to do some consulting every other month for a week.

Speaker 02681.12s - 2682.6s

And that's where my heart is.

Speaker 32683.36s - 2687.3s

I miss FDNY ORG. Wight terribly.

Speaker 02687.3s - 2693.4s

Terribly. Well, that's it. And you guys still put up with me. It's like over 20 years.

Speaker 32693.4s - 2697.5s

Well, it's only one year now. It's only once a year. So, you know. This is a very important job.

Speaker 02697.5s - 2702.42s

Not everybody can get those signs straight for the classroom. And when I fill the water pitcher,

Speaker 32702.42s - 2706.18s

that water is cold, ready to be drank. Right there. Let me tell you. I'm the guy putting out water is cold ready to be drank right there let me tell you

Speaker 02706.18s - 2711.22s

i'm the guy putting out signs and filling water pictures this dude if we don't get the signs of

Speaker 32711.22s - 2715.9s

nobody's going to know what to go for these classes so very important well Kevin PERSON I want to thank you

Speaker 02715.9s - 2720.02s

very much for sitting down with me I know you've got a you've got a lot got a lot of signs to

Speaker 32720.02s - 2726.76s

organize right yeah yeah you got to get your team together and get them started on some things.

Speaker 02726.86s - 2733.66s

But still, it's funny, you know, I, every year that I come here, I'm amazed at looking at what the

Speaker 32733.66s - 2737.88s

trade show floor looks like. Because that's where, you know, I mean, for fire apparatus and emergency

Speaker 22737.88s - 2742.84s

equipment, I'm out there. That's, you know, David Rhodes PERSON has the training side, you know,

Speaker 12742.84s - 2745.38s

and that, you know, that's his, that's his Super Bowl EVENT.

Speaker 02745.54s - 2748.66s

That, the show floor out there when those exhibits start, though.

Speaker 32748.74s - 2756.76s

Yes. That's my Super Bowl EVENT. So, but it's always amazing looking at it now. We're, we're two days before the training is starting right now.

Speaker 02756.76s - 2772.6s

It's nice and quiet right now. It's very quiet. Much longer. I mean, like, I'm watching people, they're in there. They're putting tape down on the floor to indicate where all the booths are. I mean, there are some real unsung FDIC ORG heroes in there that are getting all those things right.I don't know how they do it. I don't know how they...

Speaker 32772.6s - 2789.88s

The contractors here and the union people from this stadium in this convention hall, they have changed from topic to topic. You have no idea. You'll walk in here in a couple days. You'll think this whole building is nothing but the fire department always was. The displays look permanent. It's even

Speaker 22789.88s - 2794.7s

like the tread of each step has got a label all over the whole place. In two weeks, it'll be

Speaker 02794.7s - 2803.7s

like a Lego ORG convention. And you wouldn't even know that the fire department was even here. These people work very hard. They're amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing. Thank you. Oh, thank you.

Speaker 32803.76s - 2806.04s

Thank you for sitting down with you. I'm glad we had a chance to do this.

Speaker 12806.08s - 2808.52s

We got a whole week, though, to catch up on some other things too.

Speaker 32808.62s - 2810.08s

So I'm looking forward to that.

Speaker 12810.1s - 2829.62s

I always look forward to seeing you every year. So again, this has been Chris McClune PERSON with fire apparatus and emergency equipment. Sitting down with Kevin Shea, we talked technical rescue stuff today. If there are topics that we haven't hit on with this podcast yet, I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Let me know. Chris.combe at oh boy, well, brainfarts.

Speaker 02829.84s - 2830.3s

That's okay.

Speaker 32830.3s - 2858.66s

You've got to get them out before the week starts. Chris Dom McCloon PERSON at clarionevents.com. Also, if you go to fire apparatus magazine.com slash podcast, you get a chance to see all the podcasts that we've done to this point. So again, please let us know. Part of what is enjoyable for me, whether it's podcasts or webcasts, is our communication with you, the audience.And, you know, anything we can do. We've got subject matter experts. I'm going to meet, you know, probably 200 of them this week.

Speaker 22858.8s - 2862.42s

So, you know, we have plenty of people to get those questions answered.

Speaker 12862.52s - 2868.68s

So again, Chris McLuhan with fire apparatus and equipment, sitting down with Kevin Shea PERSON. Have a good one and stay safe. And thanks again.

Speaker 32868.68s - 2869.98s

Yes, thank you. Thank you, everyone.

Speaker 02874.78s - 2940.54s

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