#845 - Bridging Divides: A Therapeutic Approach to Restoring America's Soul

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Speaker 027.66s - 55.5s

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Speaker 255.5s - 87.34s

plushcare.com slash weight loss. Hey guys. Welcome to this week's podcast episode and I've got a fantastic guest for you today, Phyllis Livett PERSON, and she is the author of American Therapy WORK_OF_ART, which you can see in the background. We're going to talk all about our mental health crisis today. I just got done talking with another guest about mental health, psychotherapy, something we all need. She's an author, educator, leader, and I'm really happy to have her on the show. So Phyllis PERSON, welcome.

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Thank you so much for having me here today with you. Yeah.

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I've been doing a lot of thinking, and I love to ask you because I know what the audience wants. So talk about how you got started, how you decided to focus on mental health and the work that you do.

Speaker 3105.54s - 161.78s

Yeah, I mean, probably like so many people, we end up in a field that had personal meaning for us. I went to therapy when I was in my 30s, and it really changed my life. I was in a very hard place. I had three little children, and I was kind of blocked and stuck and pretty depressed. And I went to therapy and it really, really did change my life. I understood that my early conditioning had everything to do with what I was suffering from in the present. And I began to unravel some of the negative beliefs and some of theresulting behaviors that didn't work for me. And I made a connection to a much more essential part of myself over time. And, you know, not an easy journey, but so worth it. So, so, so, so worth it. And so then I became a psychotherapist

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myself. Yeah. So talk about, you know, your work that you do with clients, how you help them, what distinguishes you, you know, the, what makes you stand out.

Speaker 3173.94s - 285s

Well, I think, you know, I'm probably like a lot of psychotherapists, really, in that, you know, I learned to look very deeply into my client's early conditioning as well, because we really do understand that there are patterns of behavior and patterns of belief, patterns of coping that we learn in our families of origin and in our immediate communities and environment. And out of that, and this probably is a little bit different than maybe some other therapists, but out of that, I began to realize that our family systems are everywhere and we're conditioned by all the large groups that we're in. And groups run on family dynamics no matter what size they are.So we have conditioning from our neighborhoods, from our gender, from our economic class, from our religion, from our states, from our government. And there are so many influences on a person's life. And, you know, by uncovering, which is what we do with individual people, what are the strengths and gifts that you have and what are the places where you were hurt that have created either difficult feelings or dysfunctional coping mechanisms and I took that lens and looked at our country through that and really looking at what are the dynamics of our country and are they the dynamics of a healthy familyand in what ways are they not just like unhealthy dynamics in a family cause pain and suffering if there's abuse or neglect or violence and we have a lot of that in our country and how is it affecting us as the family of America GPE and how could we take the best principles of healing and apply them to our country to bring more healing bring more cohesiveness reduce reduce violence, and bring people back together.

Speaker 2285s - 305.44s

Interesting. Do you think our country is past the tipping point or I've been, I'm just curious. It seems like a lot of people view the government as something just for the rich people and just kind of, you know, just basically looting from everybody else. But what are your thoughts?

Speaker 3306.1s - 418.84s

Well, I think that our government is behaving in many, many ways, flagrant ways, like dysfunctional and abusive parents. I think as, and so as a country, and again, I say these things from the point of view of a therapist, from the point of view of our mental health, which is ultimately we may call out dysfunctional or abusive behaviors, but the goal is always healing. The goal is not just to point fingers or hate people or retaliate. The goal is to help people heal so that we don't pass ondysfunctional and hurtful behaviors to other people. So when we call out the things that government may be doing that are really unjust, that are causing and contributing to, you know, massive economic divide where the poor stay poor and then we blame the poor, you know, for being poor and the rich get richer, you know, this is a dysfunctional family dynamic that needs to be addressed as a dysfunctional family dynamic on a national level. It's partly because it causes suffering, but also if we condone suffering for masses of people,whether it's discrimination or economic inequality or a kind of a rigged criminal justice system or whatever the issues are that are that really target certain vulnerable populations, then we can expect that people are going to become symptomatic, which they do and act out, which they do, just like people in abusive or neglectful families will become symptomatic from the pain that they're experiencing and they'll act out. And we know in the field of psychotherapy that they're acting out pain. But I don't know if we know that as a society because we tend to just blame and punish people.

Speaker 2419.24s - 480.32s

Interesting. Yeah. I think the issue of government and health care, education, transportation, finances, energy, you know, military, all these things are kind of just very poorly managed. And I don't think, I think a lot of people feel that way as well. But one thing that is one thing that I've asked what I really is interested in is, because I had a podcast guest right before you, we were talking about,you think a lot of the problems in society with anxiety, depression, anger, fear, especially in the Western NORP world, what is the cause of that? Is it the media? Is it the government? You know, is it just the culture, the Western NORP culture is just kind of broken down? What are your thoughts? I mean, I really think there are multiple

Speaker 3480.32s - 705.4s

causes and you probably can't pin it all on one thing, but I think there is a breakdown in our families of origin that's pretty widespread. And I see that, you know, through all the years of being a therapist, that the amount of emotional or mental abuse and neglect and alienation and disconnection and abandonment is very epidemic in our country. And what are all the things that contribute to the breakdown of the family?And that doesn't mean every family is broken down. And it doesn't mean that we don't have millions of very high functioning, wonderful people in America GPE doing incredible things. And that hasn't changed the whole legislative kind of thrust that we're on right now that is toward, you know, toward a lot of divisiveness, threats of violence, discrimination, and inequality. So that being said, I think some of the contributing facts.So I look, I look like at the microcosm and the macrocosm. So the microcosm is us as individuals and our families. And the macrocosm is our larger institutions and groupings of people and government. And I think they're really related. I think to the extent that we don't actually see people as the greatest resource that we have available to us and invest in the lives of our actual citizens in their health care for everyone, good educationfor everyone, good housing for everyone, economic equality for everyone. All of the things that we all want for ourselves. We all want these things for ourselves. We want to be safe in our homes. We want our children to have good opportunities. To the extent that we don't invest in that for everyone, we are creating people who are suffering. And one of the things that I see as a psychotherapist, I really try to talk through the lens of psychology at sort of the little picture, the microcosm, and the macro lens of psychology at sort of the little picture,the microcosm, and the macrocosm. So one of the things that I've experienced over the many years that I've been a therapist is that when people are not treated well by other human beings, and that's on a continuum from, you know, just sort of not being nice to being violent, when people are not treated well by human beings, when they're not loved, when they don't feel like they're wanted and that they belong, when they don't feel like they can count on other people to be cooperative with them or value themor be committed to resolving conflict without violence. And that's a big one, the commitment to peaceful conflict resolution. When people don't have that, then they tend to follow two paths, and I've seen this over the years. One is some people become more and more powerless and easily controlled because they really didn't have any power. So they've learned to be helpless helpless and then they're easily dominated. And the other path is that many people become very domineering and they become like the people that hurt them.And so I think we have an escalating pattern in our country and I don't think this is just in America GPE. I think it's worldwide of more and more people being easily controlled and feeling helpless and overwhelmed, and more and more people identifying with the aggressor and becoming the dominator and then doing to others some form of what was done to them. And this is very dangerous, very, very dangerous.

Speaker 2705.56s - 750.52s

Yeah. So it sounds like, so sounds like, again, I'm not advocating for Trump or Biden PERSON. I think, you know, I think somebody new. But there's a, so basically that's what January 6th. And that's why we have like, you know, mass shootings. And so why do we, one thing is really curiously, we have so many problems in here, in our country. And we're sitting here spending trillions of dollars or, you know, almost close to a trillion CARDINAL on war, which doesn't really, I mean, I don't understand.Like, why are we killing civilians and invading countries and, you know, when we have our own problems? Is it, I mean, what are your thoughts on that? I think that's the outgrowth of

Speaker 3750.52s - 812.54s

what I'm talking about is you have more and more people in positions of power over more and more people that they've rendered powerless. And as human beings, without intervention, without actually healing our own wounds, because inside the perpetrator is a victim somewhere. So without healing our own wounds, people become addicts, you know, on some level. And one of the addictions is the addiction to power. And I think we're at this, this real turning point in human history. And you said tipping point, and I think it could be a tippingpoint, and I'm hoping to be one voice to help us tip in a different direction, and I either know there's millions of voices out there, I'm not alone, that we have the capability when we want to dominate, when people are really addicted to power and to their own power and their own control. And maybe sometimes, and we see this in the news, believing that they're the only one who knows,

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whatever that is, then what you have is an investment in bigger and better ways to dominate,

Speaker 3821.16s - 873.74s

which now is weapons of mass destruction. And so like what you're saying, I totally am an advocate that we take those resources and we reallocate them toward our families, toward the American NORP public, toward the things that people actually need to be healthy and safe and thrive in their own lives, because that's how we create a healthy citizenship. However, that means confronting the addiction to power and those who hold it.And exactly the way the best therapy would confront with the desire to heal, not the desire to hate, an abusive parent or an abusive spouse or someone who was lording their power over others and their family in a way that was hurting them and ultimately dangerous. Yeah.

Speaker 2873.94s - 912.36s

The other question that I came up during your wonderful response was, do you think a lot of the, because, you know, we have, you know, a lot of our basic needs, like before we had to hunt for food, right? But now you're more likely to be obese than starving, right? And then we've got clothing. We've got water, shelter.So you think a lot of these problems that we see are just because we have a lot of our, and so people are looking for the next kind of thing. But it's like tainted by corporations and the media and advertising and all of this. What are your thoughts?

Speaker 3912.88s - 915.88s

Can you just clarify that question a little bit? Yeah.

Speaker 2916.08s - 945.34s

So I'm thinking like, you know, because we have a lot of our basic needs met. So, you know, a lot of these problems that we see today, is it just because, like, as a society, we're just inventing problems and, like, mental health. And, you know, that's come to the forefront. And, you know, people are looking for more fulfillment, more happiness, you know.You know, obviously, you look around you and you can, you can feel something's wrong, right? But you just, you, but what are your thoughts?'s wrong right but you just you but uh what

Speaker 3945.34s - 1067.14s

what are your thoughts what i think is that um you know what we have the capacity to create isn't necessarily good for us just like we have the capacity to create weapons of mass destruction we have the capacity to you know manufacture all kinds, for instance, that are not good for people. And that goes, that's on a lot of levels. A lot of the food that you see in the grocery stores is really not good for people, and it creates obesity or it creates food addictions to sugar, to fat, to salt,you know, to all the things that we kind of know about a healthy diet. And we have all kinds of things like that in our culture that we're sort of being fed through the big industries of, you know, addiction to games and addiction to violent TV and, you know, so there's all kind of an addiction to social media and the, you know, the conflicts that it, that it actually inflates. And so I think when we talk about being at a tipping point or a turning point, I think we have to really sit down together and talk about what's actually healthy for human beingsbecause the things that we go after and that we're sort of programmed to want more and more and more of aren't necessarily good for us. They're not necessarily good for our children. The things that, and I've seen this, and I say this again and again, as a psychotherapist, what I've seen is that the best food for human beings, the very best food for human beings is love and belonging. It's safety. It's being provided for our basic needs. And it's a commitment to peaceful conflict resolution.Those are the things that bring people together. And when people feel like they're loved and belong, they don't want to hurt each other. They don't want to feed each other bad food. They don't want to create weapons of mass destruction. Who do you know that doesn't want more love and safety and peace in their life?Nobody.

Speaker 21068.06s - 1106.22s

Yeah, we have, you know, fundamental. Every human being has, you know, six needs and then people have it and need it in different combinations and they form their beliefs and values around that. Kind of turning it, pulling it back in, can you share some specific examples, case studies for your practice that illustrated how understanding and treating psychologicaldysfunction at the family level can lead to broader societal healing and also looking forward, you know, if the United States GPE were going to embrace the principles that you advocate, what changes why we see in the nation is course.

Speaker 31106.38s - 1266.22s

Well, so I really talk about family therapy because that's the model and the lens that I look at our country through. So we know now in the world of family therapy. And psychology is in evolving science. So there's more and more that we can learn about human behavior. But so far, I think one of the things that we more and more that we can learn about human behavior. But so far,I think one of the things that we really understand is that we are conditioned by our families. And we are also unique human beings, so not every person is influenced in the same way. But I did a lot of work with children early on in my practice. And almost every child that was brought to therapy was suffering actually from the conflict between their parents. And almost every child that was brought to therapy was suffering actually from the conflict between their parents and family strife. There was actually really nothing wrong with the children themselves, but they were the symptom bearers for the conflict going on in the home.So I had one little child that I was working with that was wetting the bed and they were, I don't know, 10 or 11 years old and the parents brought them to therapy. And the bottom line of what unraveled very quickly is that both parents were doing drugs and fighting all the time. And the child was the symptom bearer. The child didn't know how to tell the world any other way how they weresuffering, but by becoming symptomatic. And so that's how I think we need to look at the most symptomatic people in our culture, the mass murderers, the rapists, the people who are exploiting the poor, the people who have no problem putting innocent people in jail. They're also symptom bearers for the dysfunction of the family. And the work was with the parents. The work was with the, and there was work with the child too. But if you just sent the child back into the conflict of their home and didn'taddress for the parents that their child is having anxiety and wetting the bed because you're fighting, then there was, then, then you're really not helping the child. You know, it might give them a safe place to talk, but the ultimate help comes from the people who they depend on. And that's the same lens that we look, I look at our country through, that there are many, many people who are symptomatic because of what's going on in their homesand because of what's going on in the larger institutions around them that are conflictual, that are discriminatory, and, you know, et cetera, et cetera, and they're symptomatic. So I think we have to look that way and start to understand ourselves betterrather than through a lens of

Speaker 21266.22s - 1289.02s

blame. So on a national level, and, you know, so what I would do would be work with the parents and I would really, you know, let them know what the symptoms were that their child had and what they revealed about the family system. And I would do the same thing with the country. But some very specific things that I would recommend highly are, for instance,

Speaker 31289.46s - 1448.28s

that we have trained facilitators in Congress ORG who actually mediate the conversation that hold people to account for the way they talk, that they don't allow people to just walk out or not appear or just, you know, filibuster, but that they actually facilitate deep listening to conflictual point of views, because that's what we do in the best therapy that help people hear each other and perhaps understand that maybe their point of view isn't the only point of view, or that maybe they were even wrong,and there's something that they need to make amends for. The goal being not to blame or shame anyone, but the goal being that we learn to listen deeply and actually commit to working it out, whatever it is, whether it's in Congress ORG or in our own families, and that we want this, that we want the role model of ourleaders to be something that we would want our children to do if a child you know just started calling names to their teacher they'd be kicked out of the class right behaviors from those in positions of great power and influence that we would never want anyone to manifest toward us or our children to behave that way. So that's one thing. But really, the idea is that we ask as a populace that the people that govern us, that we'veelected to govern us, actually are committed to peacefully working out their differences for our benefit. Just like the little child I was talking about, needed the parents to work out their conflict and deal with their addictions so that the child could live a healthy, a healthy, safe, peaceful life and not become symptomatic. So that's one thing. I would definitely, as I said, I would reallocate some of our, many of our resources away from war and toward peace. I'm a believer that our investmentin weapons of mass destruction could be the end of the human race. And I don't want that. And I don't think anyone who really thinks about where we're going wants that for their children or their grandchildren. But I think we are so invested in right and wrong and who's good and who's evil and that we have a right to warrather than that we have a right to peace. We have a right to live healthy, peaceful, sustainable lives.

Speaker 21448.78s - 1474.5s

Yeah, I love that. And, you know, we can go on and on. You know, a lot of people are saying, you know, U.S. GPE government, you can't do anything. A lot of them are leaving. Just kind of better quality of locations, you know, better benefits.Yeah, but how can people contact you and follow you? Take out your book because I love your discourse. You know, it's going to take millions to actually evoke change because it's just,

Speaker 31475.28s - 1500.46s

but how can people find you and work with you, et cetera? Yeah, thank you for asking. The best place to find me is on my website, which is www. www. phyllis levitt.com. You can buy my book, American Therapy WORK_OF_ART, from all the major booksellers, and you can find it on my website. I have lots of talks on YouTube and uploaded onto my website. I have blogs. I have articles on Substack PRODUCT. I'm on

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LinkedIn and Facebook ORG, you know, all the social media. And you can contact me through my website.

Speaker 31506.6s - 1531.52s

I'm happy to talk with anyone, share with anyone. I have a, if you do contact me, you will receive a free PDF, which is, it's called The Six Secrets of Reparing Relationship After Conflict WORK_OF_ART. And it's really how to apply some of the things that I'm talking about in your own personal life that I've learned, you know, through being a person in relationship and through being a therapist.

Speaker 21532.14s - 1536.3s

Yeah, excellent. I know your time is very valuable. So thanks so much for coming on.

Speaker 31536.82s - 1539.9s

Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.