Vinnie Politan Investigates: Bryan Kohberger | Court TV Podcast

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Earning your degree online from Southern New Hampshire University ORG, that's really smart. With 24-7 access to coursework, no-set class times, and dedicated student support, you can go to school when and where it works for you and dedicated student support, you can go to school when and where it works for you. Low online tuition means you can even do it for less. Anddedicated student support means we'll be with you from day one to graduation and beyond. Join a community of learners just like you. Go to snhu.edu today to start your free application.

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The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are simply that. Opinions. All are presumed innocent until proven otherwise in a court of law. Sensitive topics are discussed. Discretion is advised. Welcome to Vinipolitan Investigates ORG.

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It's the biggest case on our docket here at Court TV, the murders of four University of Idaho students. It was a crime that shook the community and shook the nation, a cold-blooded killer on the loose. Investigators worked long hours following every lead, including surveillance videos from all over town. They made an arrest, but there's no direct evidence in this case, just a series of circumstances, which is why prosecutors must bring their A-game, as the suspect and hisattorneys are conceding nothing. This will be an epic courtroom battle. I've been covering the story on my weeknight show closing arguments since the murders. And what you're about to see are some of the most important moments from that program as I investigate the University of Idaho ORG student murders and take a closer look at the surveillance video and the timeline. In the early morning hours of November 13th, 2022, four University of Idaho ORG students were stabbedto death inside their off-campus home. Ethan, Zana, Maddie and Kali PERSON all gone. The brutal crime shook the community and touched the nation, setting off an intense manhunt for a killer. Investigators from the Moscow Police Department ORG joined forces with the Idaho State Police and the FBI ORG following every lead, every tip, and every piece of evidence. That investigation took them across the country to Pennsylvania GPE and led them to this man,a grad student at a neighboring university. He was back inside a courtroom in Moscow GPE, trying desperately to have his indictment thrown out by the judge. Tonight, we have the latest from the courtroom. Plus, we take another look at the route investigators say the killer took, retracing his path and looking at surveillance video from that night. Does it show the killer's car and does it lock in the timeline of this murder?This hour, we continue our investigation of the Idaho GPE student murders. March 2025 is what they're targeting as a date here. That's the earliest this trial is going to happen. My understanding this thing could take three, four plus months of testimony, everything else.But remember what I said at the beginning. Prosecutors need to bring their A game. Need to be able to lock down the timeline. Lock down this defendant. One way they're going to do it or attempt to do it is through surveillance video. And joining me tonight from Portland, Oregon GPE,podcaster Gray Hughes, who you can watch on YouTube at Gray Hughes Investigates ORG. Make sure you check it out after this program tonight. Check out his channel. It's pretty amazing. The in-depth investigations he's done on this case and on many of the other big true crime cases. So Gray, you've done some incredible work here involving a surveillance video from that night. Before we get to it, though, I just want to set things up for the folks at home so they're prepared for what they're going to see. And I think you agree with me that it all starts with the affidavit that's been obtained by all of us.So let's take a look at that, the affidavit. This is key. Videos obtained from the King Road FAC neighborhood showed multiple sightings of the suspectidavit. Videos, this is key, videos obtained from the King Road neighborhood showed multiple sightings of the suspect vehicle number one. They're saying that's the defendant, starting at 3.29 a.m., ending at 4.20 a.m. Suspect one, suspect vehicle one makes an initial three passes by the 1122 King Road residence and then leaves via Walenta Drive. Okay. Suspect vehicle one can beseen entering the area a fourth time, and this is the significant time. At approximately 404 a.m., it can be seen driving eastbound on King Road FAC, stopping, turning around in front of 500 Queen Road, number 52, and then driving back westbound on King Road FAC. When vehicle one is in front of 500 Queen Road, number 52, and then driving back westbound on King Road. When vehicle one is in front of the King Road FAC residence, it appeared to unsuccessfully attempt to park or turn around in the road. The vehicle then continued to the intersection of Queen Road and King Road FAC, where it can beseen completing a three-point turn and then driving eastbound again down Queen Road FAC. Suspect vehicles next seen departing the area of the king road residence at approximately 420 a.m. That's establishing our timeline. Let me show you on the screen what the video is going to look like from this surveillance and you see the time stamp on there. That's significant. 1113. This video, this piece of the video from 3.31, 3 seconds, AM. Now, let me show you the map of the route that the suspect here may have taken.Take a look at the loop. You can see where the crime scene is. That's the house. The red is this looping way you can get around the neighborhood and then you've got to go in the neighborhood. Okay, that's significant. Now let me show you where the security camera footage you're going to see is from. So points of interest. Crime scene is the house.500 queen number 52 is like an apartment where there there's a turnaround and then you've got 1330 Linda Lane security camera that is the significant positioning of the camera and the red is the route that we believe the suspect vehicle takes all right gray did I get all of that correct you nailed it coming up next the suspect vehicle takes. All right, Gray PERSON, did I get all of that correct? You nailed it. Coming up next.

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Here it comes around doing the exact same thing again. And this is interesting because 357 is right around the time that perhaps a DoorDash delivery was made, around four. Each time he goes behind behind there though he stops and probably waits for a few minutes watching through the window to see if the lights are going to turn off this is my opinion and when the lights aren't off yet he drives away to kill more time without sitting there and then comes back again that's that's my opinion now you

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were there so if the door dash driver shows up they're not going to be going past this

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particular camera they would just probably pull into the front parking lot of 1122 King Road. And see on that map right there, right above crime scenes, just to the upper, just the northwest of that is that one building right there. That is the 1122 King Road, 111-2 King Road FAC camera.

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Listening to your favorite podcast, that's smart. Earning your degree online from Southern New Hampshire University ORG, that's really smart. With 24-7 access to coursework, no-set class times, and dedicated student support, you can go to school when and where it works for you. Low online tuition means you can even do it for less. And dedicated student support means we'll be with you from day one to graduation and beyond.Join a community of learners just like you. Go to sNhu.edu today to start your free application. Now, back to the Court TV ORG podcast.

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There's been a lot of questions about the white car that we've been interested in.

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We're looking for that car because we believe, through our investigation, that that car was in the area during the time of the murders. And we also believe that the occupant or occupants may have seen something. They may not know they have seen something. So we specifically want to talk to them, and we want to know who they are and what they might know or might be able to contribute to the investigation. We started looking for video the day of the crime. Officers on scene, before I even arrived, had identified certain residences in the area that had video cameras. We know just from pastexperience that security cameras, doorbell cameras and the like are very, very commonplace now. And that's a part of our standard procedures to start looking for a possible video source in and around crime scene. So we started the day of the crime. And then that expanded as we got more investigators to the area for assistance. And we started putting together teams. And one of our team's sole job was to go through the King Road FAC area Associated neighborhoods and eventually the main thoroughfares in the city of Moscow GPE trying to identifyvideos video cameras etc and then contact those business owners contact those residents and ask for copies of that video.

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Catching the accused Idaho GPE killer was a combination of forensic evidence and surveillance video. And the videos are what really established the timeline in this case. Gray Hughes PERSON went back to the scene and drove the route he believes the killer took. Here's that part of our conversation. Let's put up the first video and I'll let you take over. I think this is the first one where you're in your car driving part of the path.So tell us what we're watching.

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Yeah, this is 500 Queen Road. The main building is right here on the right. And this is what it looked like from the driver of the White Alantra's PRODUCT point of view, driving back here. And this is what it looks like. And then you take a right, and now I switch it over to daylight here so you can just get a better view of it. And then right back there to the left is where the camera is on that building over there.And this is that little space. And right here is some surveillance footage at 331 FAC. That was a little short clip there, but it shows that vehicle making this exact route right here. And then it comes around and look where this ends up at. Each time it made this loop. At 331 FAC, you take it right right here and you could just park right here on this corner and you could see right into Madison Mogan's PERSON bedroom right there.

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Oh, wow, on the top right part of the screen there. That was the...

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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On the left side of the screen, it's right there, yeah, exactly.

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Okay, now let's take a look at the next piece of video.

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This is pass number two, I believe.

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At 3.38.

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Exactly.

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This is the second of the

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three initial passes. So at 338, you can see the light as it's coming down that narrow corridor that I was driving on. And then you'll see the lights show up and then it comes around the corner and it does the exact same thing again. And each time it leaves on Walanta Drive FAC and does thatloop all the way around. And between loop number two and three, however, there might be a different route that he took because there's a

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17-minute gap instead of eight. So as you're doing all this and you had driven the route,

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are the times matching up for you? Oh, absolutely perfectly. I even did it live streams. I go, everybody right now, pretend it's this time. And we drive around and it's like boom. I mean, exactly everything lined up.

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All right. Let's move ahead now to 356 and 45 seconds.

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And this is the third pass. So again, there's like a 17 minute gap in that one. It's possible it showed up at a mobile gas station because there's a 345 image of a perhaps a white elantra there, but we don't have that in this show tonight. So here it comes around doing the exact same thing again. And this is interesting because 357 is right around the time that perhaps a DoorDash delivery was made around four.I think it might be a little bit before that, though. And I think it just each time he goes behind there, though, he stops and probably waits for a few minutes watching through the window to see if the lights are going to turn off. This is my opinion. And when the lights aren't off yet, he drives away to kill more timewithout sitting there and then comes back again. That's my opinion.

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Now, you were there. So if the Door Dash PRODUCT driver shows up, they're not going to be going past this particular camera.

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No, they would just be right, they would go in front of the 1112 King Road FAC camera, but they would just probably pull into the front parking lot of 112 King Road FAC. And see on that map right there, right above crime scene, just to the upper, just the northwest of that is that one building right there. That is the 1122 King Road, 111-1-2 King Road FAC camera. Okay. So when this case goes to trial for

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prosecutors, obviously they can have this surveillance video, but they'll have other video from other cameras along the way to try to tie this all together. But again, from you comparing these videos to that affidavit to driving it yourself, things are matching up pretty consistently for you. Yeah, it matches up absolutely perfectly.

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These are the initial three passes that we just discussed, and then I guess we'll be showing, there's like on the fourth pass, there's an aborted pass, and then it turns around, and then it finally finishes it.So we'll see that here in a second. Still to come. So he did the three-point turn at Queen and King. Now he's actually going quite a bit faster. I timed these. He's really hustling.It's almost like he noticed something. It's his time now. He's going to get there. And he comes around the corner. And look what time is. 407 and 41 seconds or so.I think he parked at 408 FAC. All right. And then at 408 FAC probably exits the vehicle sometime after that, and then 420 it leaves at a high rate of speed. But interestingly, in the in-between 408 and 420, a knife sheath was left inside the house on Madison Mogan's PERSON bed that contained the DNA of Brian Koberger PERSON,who also drives a 2015 white elantra. Like right there, that's almost where you'd be parking just to the left a little bit. You can see right through that window.

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Listening to your favorite podcast, that's smart. Earning your degree online from Southern New Hampshire University ORG, that's really smart. With 24-7 access to coursework, no-set class times, and dedicated student support, you can go to school when and where it works for you. Low online tuition means you can even do it for less. And dedicated student support means we'll be with you from day one to graduation and beyond. Join a community of learners just like you.Go to sNhU.edu today to start your free application. like you. Go to sNhu.edu today to start your free application.

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Now, back to the Court TV ORG podcast.

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Detectives arrested 28-year-old Brian, Christopher PERSON, Kohlberger, a warrant for murder of Ethan, Zena, Madison, and Kaylee PERSON. He was stalking them, he was hunting them. You could tell there was something off about him.

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A quadruple homicide in Moscow, Idaho GPE, it's just unheard of.

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This is our home. This is our university. This is our community. These murders have shaken our community, and no arrest will ever bring back these young students. This was a violation of everything.

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From the surveillance video, it seems like the vehicle the suspect may have been driving was circling around the house where the Idaho GPE students were killed. The car made several passes around the home, but the fourth pass seems different. Here's more of my conversation with Gray Euse PERSON.

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So this is at 405 and on the affidavit it said it shows up in the area at 404 FAC, which is actually on Taylor Avenue FAC and then it comes around and then at 405 and there's a 33 seconds or so it comes back here and then it does a it around right here, right in front of Queen Road, 500 Queen Road, number 52. It's exactly what it says on the probable cause affidavit. So right here, it's turning around. You can actually see the car right underneath the A-O.

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Right, yeah. Pretty clear.

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Yeah, it's clear, and I've actually done an overlay with a white

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Alantra PRODUCT image in the window shape is exactly the same.

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So what's going, this is a turnaround, but what's,

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I mean, what's going on here?

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Obviously we're not inside the head of the driver of this car,

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but this is different than the other passes.

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Yeah, yeah. So this one, you wonder, when he drove by, did he see something that was concerning and he wanted to go back and check it? And he was about to turn around or park right in front of 1-1-2-2- King Road. That's the house where the murders happened.But he didn't do that, and then he continued on to Queen and King, and now look at, he's coming back. Oh, this, I guess we're repeating that part.

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Yeah, this is the repeat of just so folks can see it again, because this is different than the other passes. And here you get the best look at the vehicle. Again, as you said, right under where it says AM, that is potentially the killer's car here. Yeah.

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And amazingly, Brian Coburger owned a 2015 white elantra. White Alantra PRODUCT. All right, now let's get to the

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final pass. Again, the timing here is very significant as well as we move to the next video,

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starting at 407. Right. So he did the three-point turn at Queen and King. Now he's actually going quite a bit faster. I timed these. He's really hustling. It's almost like he noticed something. It's his time now. He's going to get there. And he comes around the corner and look what time is. 407 and 41 seconds or so. I think he parked at 408 FAC. All right. And then at 408 probably exits the vehicle sometime after that. And then at 420, it leaves at a high rate of speed. But interestingly, in the in between 408 FAC and 420,a knife sheath was left inside the house on Madison Mugan's PERSON bed that contained the DNA of Brian Koberger PERSON, who also drives a 2015 white elantra.

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And this is exactly how prosecutors have to lay this out for the jury. Because you don't have a confession here. You don't have a, you have a witness who sees someone in the mass. I don't think the surviving witness can significantly identify the person by the face because of the covering. But this is the type of evidence that a jury, identify the person by the face because of the covering. But this is the type of evidence that a jury understands and then kind of shifts it on to the defendantto try to explain it. Or are they going to say it wasn't me behind the wheel of the car? Now, 408 FAC to 420 is the window of time where everyone believes the murders took place. The one thing you said, I found very significant, though, that he was moving quicker. Whoever's driving that car was driving quicker in that last final pass towards the house.Adrenaline is rushing. It's go time. To me, that would resonate with the jury as well. Yeah, I totally agree.

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I think that's exactly what was happening. It's almost, it's like 60% faster. I mean, it's really hustling. If you watch the other ones, he kind of trickles around and watches, but that one is just boom. He's going to park.He saw that maybe the lights were off. He wasn't waiting anymore. And then bolted down the bank, through the sliding glass door. And I think, you know, likely probably went to Madison Mugan's room first. Right. That's my opinion.

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And again, you've been there. Where he's parking, very close to the home, and you're going to go, it's not the front door, you're going down a hill sort of the side because the house was built into like the side of a hill. Exactly, yeah.

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Just right up there. The left there is where you would park. Kind of where that truck is a little bit further up on the left there. Yep.

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You could see it right back behind there.

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I did a 360 degree video where, you know, have you seen those where you can look around in all directions? Yes. And so it's kind of interestingwhen you place it up there.

Speaker 61328.9s - 1357.02s

Listening to your favorite podcast, that's smart. Earning your degree online from Southern New Hampshire University ORG, that's really smart. With 24-7 access to coursework,no set class times, and dedicated student support, you can go to school when and where it works for you. Low online tuition means you can even do it for less. And dedicated student support means we'll be with youfrom day one to graduation and beyond. Join a community of learners just like you. Go to snhu.edu today to start your free application.

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You can just look around and see all the angles that he would be seeing. Like right there, that's almost where you'd be parking just to the left a little bit. You could see right through that window. Unbelievable.

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Gray Hughes. It's Gray Use Investigates ORG on YouTube. You go on there, in-depth investigations like this day after day. Gray PERSON, thank you so much. Appreciate your time and putting these pieces together for us tonight.

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Well, thanks for having me on, Vinnie PERSON. It's always fun.

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Now, back to the Court TV ORG podcast.

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The crime scene was gruesome. Four young friends stabbed to death, killed for no reason at all. Then after a manhunt, a suspect was arrested. But this guy seemingly had no connection to the victims, which led all of us to ask the same question. Why? Why would someone do this? There are experts who spent a lot of time trying to figure out that question, trying to get inside the minds of killers like this.I've been covering this story on my weeknight show, closing arguments since the murders and what you're about to see are some of the most important moments from that program as I investigate the University of Idaho ORG student murders and take a closer look inside the mind of a

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killer. The other two roommates were there at the time of the attack? All the information

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we have from our investigation is that yes, they were.

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Okay, but they were unhurt.

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That is correct?

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So is there any explanation as to why it took so long then for someone to call 911 PRODUCT? You have surviving witnesses to an incident at three or four in the morning, and the 911 call didn't come until noon?

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I don't think I ever said that they were witnesses. I said they were there. So, you know, we don't know why that call came in at noon. Four were killed.

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Two more were in the house. One of them actually saw the killer. One was downstairs, but one was on the same floor as two of the murder victims, Ethan and Zana PERSON, and saw the killer, saw those bushy eyebrows. Let me read for you, the affidavit from this witness roommate, known as DM. She was awoken at approximately 4 a.m. by what she stated sounded like Gonzávez playing with her dog in one of the upstairs bedrooms, which were located on the third floor. A short time later, DM said she heard who she thought was Gonzalves say something to the effect of, there's someone here. DM stated she opened her door a second time when she heard what she thought was crying coming from Kurnodal PERSON's room.DM PERSON then said she heard a male voice say something to the effect of, It's okay, I'm going to help you. DM stated she opened her door for a third time after she heard the crying and saw a figure clad in black clothing and a mask that covered the person's mouth and nose walking towards her. DM described the figure as 5'10 or taller taller male, not very muscular, but athletically built with bushy eyebrows.The male walked past DM PERSON as she stood in a frozen shock phase. The male walked towards the back sliding glass door. DM PERSON locked herself in her room after seeing the male. Diem PERSON did not state that she recognized the mail. This leads investigators to believe that the murdererleft the scene. Wow. Wow. Why was she spared? Let's bring in our experts. Joining usfrom Jacksonville, Alabama GPE. Forensic Death Investigator, host of the Bodybags WORK_OF_ART podcast, and Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State University ORG, Joseph Scott Morgan PERSON, and psychologist, researcher, expert on violent crime, and the author of the New Evil,Dr. Gary Bruchada PERSON is with us. And in Portland, Oregon, psychologist and author of The Minds of Mass Killers WORK_OF_ART, understanding and interpreting the pathway to violence, Chavon Scott PERSON, is with us. Welcome to everyone. Thank you for being here. The witness who is there, like face- face is the way she describes it.Gary Bruchado PERSON, what are your thoughts about why she may have been spared here?

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It's important to emphasize that we're entering into the realm of total speculation here, but we should remember that if Koberger PERSON is the culprit, he had described online being someone who experienced states of dissociation, that under intense emotional stress, he would sort of blip out of reality a little bit, zone out. I have suspected that it was dissociation under the stress of that evening that led to leaving the sheath. That probably led to the zoned out walking out of the house.I think that this was an intense, extremely adrenaline-soaked emotional experience, and he probably was dissociating a little bit, hence some of the mistakes that were made. It's also possible with this kind of an individual, again, if he's guilty, that there may have also been some quality of enjoying being the arbiter of who it is that lives and who dies. Because remember, with this type of offender, there is a little bit of a god-like striving where you feel that youhave the power over things like that. But I suspect it was about dissociation. Joseph Scott Morgan PERSON,

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something else that we're learning now. Caley's parents were describing the room today, that the bed took up most of the room, that Caley PERSON was seemingly trapped inside there. Your thoughts about what we know about that crime scene and now getting a little more information about the layout of that room.

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I think one of the adjectives she used was that it was a very tight space. There's not a lot of room to kind of move around in that environment. And this idea of this poor young woman being trapped, I think is rather accurate here. You begin to think about this tight space. You've got this alleged individual that is rather tall. He could dominate over both of these young ladies in this environment. And there's not very far that you could escape to outside of his reach. In addition to that, if they're laying on the bed, they're at a disadvantage. I would urge anybody the next time you're on your bed.And I've thought about this quite a bit to try to move in a quick manner. It's very difficult to get out of kind of a sunken position. And not to mention, maybe you're coming up out of a dead sleep. Maybe you've had a couple of beers that evening. And you've got somebody that is in there meaning to do you ill will, and they are completely lucid in this moment. They have their faculties. They're purposed.They're going in there planning an attack. Matter of fact, all the way to the point where they're going to show up with a K-bar knife. an attack. Matter of fact, all the way to the point where they're going to show up with a K-bar knife.

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Chavon Scott, something that we were discussing in the prior segment with Gray-U's ORG was watching the suspect's vehicle in the videos, making several passes, loops around this house.

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But on that final loop, right before the time of the murder, going about 60% faster.

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And we're specular. We're thinking, well, maybe it's, is it the adrenaline of the moment, you think, that he's made that decision? It's go time?

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Yeah, probably so. Adrenaline explains a lot of things in those kind of situations. And sometimes, you know, the circling around, the circling around could have been the mental rehearsal, the getting geared up for it, doing the planning, exactly what I'm going to do, and then finally making the decision, now's the time. Coming up next.

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There would have been an enormous amount of stalking and planning and fantasizing.

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The day that had been, the day that had been the evening that

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had been picked to go in to commit this would have been like D-Day. It would have been a day

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that was planned, plotted out, methodically imagined, fantasized about. Listening to your favorite

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podcast, that's smart. Earning your degree online from Southern New Hampshire University ORG,

Speaker 61882.22s - 1906.32s

that's really smart. With 24-7 access to coursework, no-set class times, and dedicated student support, you can go to school when and where it works for you. Low online tuition means you can even do it for less. And dedicated student support means we'll be with you from day one to graduation and beyond. Join a community of learners just like you. Go to sNhU.edu today to start your free application.Very intense sleep.

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Back to the Core TV ORG podcast. The mind of a killer is often difficult to understand.

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It's complicated, irrational, and so different from ordinary people. But my guests have spent a

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lot of time studying this behavior, and in this part of our conversation, we try to understand the accused Idaho GPE killer.

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Dr. Gary Bruchado PERSON, how much planning do you think this suspect could have done?

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I mean, we've had reports that he had made many trips to the area previously.

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Do you think, how does the mind of a killer work? Do they spot someone and then kind of

Speaker 111953.54s - 1960.1s

wait for the moment to get the courage to do it? Or is it just to figure out the plan on how to do it?

Speaker 31962.18s - 2066.68s

Well, certainly, there are a lot of different types of killers. But with the type of offender, I think we're dealing with here, there would have been an enormous amount of stalking and planning and fantasizing. And the idea was that the day that had been, the evening that had been picked to go in to commit this would have been like D-Day. It would have been a day that was planned, plotted out, methodically imagined, fantasized about very intensely. And the idea would be to go in and cherish it so much that there would probably even be trophies kept the way that we would keep a memento from an important day in our lives. This is the day that this individual, I think, finally playedout a longstanding fantasy of sort of taking out what he had wanted to do toward probably one individual. And I think the other people, unfortunately, either bedeviled him by being there unexpectedly or were simply, for lack of a better phrase, collateral damage in a situation where there was a targeting of probably one particular individual who was the object of intense stalking and fantasy. I will not be surprised if the electronics eventually yield an individual where there was asexualized undertone to the fantasizing because it's very typical and that this is a person who would have probably even done things like studied TikTok ORG videos to learn where windows were and doors were and the kinds of movements of the individual and where they went and what their habits were so that there's a false intimacy that develops where you actually believe that you know this person and that you know everything about them. And then finally you consume and control them forever by taking their life.

Speaker 112067.4s - 2076.06s

Joseph Scott Morgan PERSON, that studying, I think, is significant here, too, because of, if you look at the house, it's not intuitive the way he entered this home.

Speaker 82076.44s - 2184.9s

Like the parking lot and everything's right in the front there. That's not where he went. Yeah, to me, it describes, and I have to agree with Gary PERSON here there's one and you mentioned Gary mentioned TikTok just a second ago and I don't know if you guys remember this but there was that TikTok ORG video that all of these kids put together inside of this dwelling do you guys remember that and they were like in the main room it seems like it was adjacent to the slidersand it kind of it spins around for a moment and they were like in the main room it seems like it was adjacent to the sliders and it kind of it spins around for a moment and they're uh the the roommates are taking turns uh mimicking other roommates in there and it's it's fun it's jovial but in that moment you can actually see the staircase where it's ascending in this environment. And you can see doors down the hallway. You kind of get a quick glimpse of an insight, a very intimate insight into the lives that were being lived inside of this dwelling.And that's quite chilling from a social media standpoint to me. Because not only do you have that big bank of windows on the back, you know, where the car may have parked and you can voyeuristically look in there, but then you have the inside of social media and stalking and looking in there. And because this is not an easy structure to make your way around in. If you're going in blind. That's the big thing.It's got these weird angles in this odd staircase that originates down in the bottom on that rear parking pad, and then it makes these turns going back up. How are you going to be oriented to that environment in the dark? It just, it's, it smacks a preparedness to me. It always has. Still to come.

Speaker 112186.5s - 2191.32s

He likes to be right, you know, and that conversation did go on for quite a while, and

Speaker 82191.32s - 2196.6s

he wanted to know the difference in the laws between Idaho and Washington GPE. And, you know,

Speaker 72196.6s - 2211.96s

the police officer was very congenial, and he was very polite and congenial, but he was going to argue the case. He did like to be right.

Speaker 12214.6s - 2215.16s

Now, back to the court TV podcast.

Speaker 102218.04s - 2219.12s

The man accused of murdering the four University of Idaho ORG students is a bit of a mystery.

Speaker 112219.6s - 2234.7s

There isn't a lot of information or recordings of him speaking. But here, as we continue our investigation, we take a look at the accused killer speaking to police before and after the murders. Hi, I'm Officer Linguish PERSON.

Speaker 52234.84s - 2239.1s

Stops being audio and video recorded. I think I know why it stopped you. You ran the red light.

Speaker 42239.7s - 2242.34s

What actually happened was I was stuck in the middle of the intersection.

Speaker 52242.8s - 2244.96s

Yeah, I was forced to go to the whole time. Yeah.

Speaker 42245.06s - 2245.22s

So technically you're not supposed to enter the intersection. Yeah, I was forced to go to the whole time. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 52245.52s - 2256.82s

So technically you're not supposed to enter the intersection at all for that reason, because if the light turns red, then you're stuck in the intersection, and then you're on the red light. So that's the reason I stopped you. Do you have your license on you? Yep.

Speaker 42257.92s - 2262.6s

Yeah, there was a little bit of confusion with speeding because someone had stopped.

Speaker 92263.02s - 2264.86s

I wasn't sure what they were doing it.

Speaker 42264.86s - 2267.34s

Then they put on their light to turn. So I thought sure what they were doing it, then they put on their light turn.

Speaker 52267.84s - 2269.96s

So I thought that maybe they were letting me go through.

Speaker 42270.34s - 2271.16s

Did you see that?

Speaker 52271.56s - 2271.84s

No.

Speaker 42272.76s - 2274.58s

I feel like right before I made the turn,

Speaker 52274.68s - 2276.4s

there was someone who made a right,

Speaker 42276.68s - 2280.84s

they didn't have their signal on, so I wasn't sure if they were just waiting.

Speaker 52281.74s - 2290.4s

Yeah, so I would just advise, just don't enter the intersection until you can go so you don't get stuck. Let's see.

Speaker 42290.74s - 2292.44s

Yeah, where I'm from Pennsylvania GPE,

Speaker 52292.6s - 2296.42s

we actually don't have like crosswalks. Oh. So even if you're kind of slightly,

Speaker 42297.56s - 2303.6s

there's a little bit more leeway as well. Like there are a few lines. Like there's one white line and there's another one in front.

Speaker 52303.76s - 2309.28s

There's like a certain margin from which you can actually kind of put your vehicle. A place or vehicle.

Speaker 42310.68s - 2317.1s

Yeah. So I know law is very state to state, but there is a law in Washington GPE for blocking an

Speaker 52317.1s - 2321.34s

intersection like that, proceeding through when you don't, when you're just stalling. I forget

Speaker 42321.34s - 2324.86s

the actual verbiage, I can find it for you, but it's like stalling, blocking an intersection.

Speaker 52325.34s - 2326.32s

I'm just curious by the law. I don't mean to... Oh, verbiage, I can find it for you, but it's like stalling, blocking an intersection. I'm just curious about the law.

Speaker 42326.42s - 2327.14s

I don't mean to...

Speaker 52327.14s - 2334.74s

Oh, no, yeah, I can find it for you. Yeah. Um, one second. You're just supposed to wait behind the,

Speaker 42334.74s - 2343.12s

the white line. Drivers do it all the time, um, but... Never even occurred to me that that was actually something wrong, but I,

Speaker 52343.5s - 2346.18s

except for the fact that I was blocking the crosswalk,

Speaker 42346.32s - 2348.3s

which is... Yeah. And states vary

Speaker 52348.3s - 2352.84s

from laws, like, Pennsylvania might not even have that law. But in Washington GPE, we do.

Speaker 42353.52s - 2369.56s

I'm actually just from a very rural area, so we just don't have crosswalks. Oh. Unless I visit an area where there are crosswalks, and then it's not very frequent. Yeah. I do apologize if I was asking you too many questions about the law, I wasn't trying to like...

Speaker 52369.56s - 2370.58s

No, no, no, not at all.

Speaker 42370.66s - 2376.22s

Like, I understand you're not from here, so if you don't know, a lot of people don't know a bunch of laws.

Speaker 52376.54s - 2390.68s

Like, I only know it because this is what I do. But, yeah, if you're ever curious on any more laws, just RCW, and they can be hard to read because it's in, like, legal language. But hope that helps. Definitely. Yeah. Have a good day.Definitely you too. Thanks.

Speaker 112391.68s - 2401.66s

Chavon PERSON, what do you think there? This is before any of this happens, and if he's the person that did it, you know, it's shortly before all this. But just this conversation with police.

Speaker 72402.58s - 2419.54s

He likes to be right, you know, and that conversation did go on for quite a while, and he wanted to know the difference in the laws between Idaho and Washington GPE, and, you know, the police officer was very congenial, and he was very polite and congenial, but he was going to argue the case. He did like to be right.

Speaker 112420.26s - 2444.06s

He absolutely did. Now, let's take a listen to another interaction with police. This is on body cam. This is after the murders take place. He's pulled over in Indiana GPE. Remember, he's coming from Washington State on his way to Pennsylvania. He gets pulled over in Indiana and has a little bit of a bizarre conversation with the officer who pulled him over.

Speaker 122444.04s - 2456s

bizarre conversation with the officer who pulled them over. You right up on the back end of that van pulled you over for tailgating. Is this your car? Okay, cool. Where are you headed?

Speaker 42456s - 2461s

Well, we're coming from WSU ORG.

Speaker 122461s - 2470.66s

So you're coming from Washington State University ORG? Yeah. And you're going from WSU. So you're coming from Washington State University ORG? Yeah. And you're going where? Oh. We're going to be going to Pennsylvania GPE.

Speaker 112471.18s - 2475.18s

Oh, okay.

Speaker 122478.94s - 2479.14s

Dr. Garicado PERSON, your thoughts about this conversation?

Speaker 112480.76s - 2496.88s

I've always been fascinated by it. Like, he's in Indiana GPE. He's talking about being from Washington State, and he's asking him where he's going, and he says, we're going to get some Thai food. Like, there's better Thai food out on the West Coast, I think, than there would be in the middle of Indiana GPE, no offense, Indiana, but kind of bizarre.

Speaker 32498.68s - 2574.78s

Well, there are two things that have always jumped out to me about this. One is that you get the sense of a person who interpersonally is awkward and doesn't have enough interpersonal imagination or empathy to kind of guess that you could tell that story is ridiculous. It's like a kind of a lapse in social judgment that immediately jumped out at me. And the second thing is that he's decidedly cool. And the second thing is that he's decidedly cool. You know, people who are of a more commonplace psychology who commit offenses think that every officer speaking to them is coming to put the cups on them, you know, or that every door, every knock at the door is somebody coming to arrest them when they have a guilty conscience. But it is sort of chilling to see that because if this is an individual who, you know, not long before was literally soaked in the bloodof four people that had been killed, there's something very disturbing about the detached mechanical matter-of-fact tone that he's able to keep when an officer of the law is talking to him, instead of having the emotional kind of nervous jittery reaction, most most of us would have who have an active conscience or a fear of getting introuble. So that always struck me as a little bit peculiar. It's a little too mechanical.

Speaker 112575.8s - 2585.72s

Joseph Scott Morgan PERSON, what are your thoughts about this accused killer, both when we kind of heard him talks and seen him and his background as well.

Speaker 82587.76s - 2690.12s

Yeah, as far as his background goes, and now I'm looking at this through the eyes of, you know, somebody that works in academia. And I've always thought, you know, out of all of the criminology programs that there are in the northeastern corridor of the United States, Pennsylvania GPE included. I think there's like four PhD-level programs in the state of Pennsylvania GPE. Why does he choose to go to Wazoo GPE? Why is it that he chooses to go to Washington State GPE?Who was it that he was going to study under? Because anytime you pursue a Ph.D. WORK_OF_ART, it's not necessarily you're going there for the lovely scenery. You're going there specifically in pursuit of sitting at someone's feet who is an expert in a particular field. And within that construct of criminology, why Washington State GPE? I've always been fascinated by that choice.I'm sure it's a fine school, but I think my question is, was his purpose to go there and study under someone specifically that is conducting the research that he's interested in? Remember his background at DeSales ORG, and he studied there under a number of people, including our friend Benny, Catherine PERSON. And so I'm thinking, you know, why Washington State GPE, out of all of the places that you could have chosen, why there?I want to know who wrote him the letters of recommendation to get into Washington State GPE. When you apply for a PhD WORK_OF_ART program, there's a ton of paperwork that you have to fill out. I want to know who recommended him and who exactly was his faculty advisor. And what, you you know what was their purpose has he has he put forth a statement of purpose yet now he's very early on yeah

Speaker 112690.12s - 2696.98s

that would be fascinating the accused Idaho GPE killer has maintained his innocence from the beginning

Speaker 82696.98s - 2702.78s

he hasn't taken credit for these murders as a result it will be up to our system of justice

Speaker 112702.78s - 2743.74s

and a jury of 12 to decide if he did it. The only way the accused Idaho GPE killer will get convicted is if prosecutors can piece together their circumstantial evidence in a way that's easy to follow and make sense. If they bring their A game, it seems they could do it. But like every trial, it's not going to be easy. And the defense will fight every piece of evidence.The nation will be able to watch this trial when it happens right here on court TV. I'm Vinipolitan PERSON. Thanks for joining the investigation. Listening to your favorite podcast, that's smart.

Speaker 62744.4s - 2769.4s

earning your degree online from Southern New Hampshire University ORG, that's really smart. With 24-7 access to coursework, no-set class times, and dedicated student support, you can go to school when and where it works for you. Low online tuition means you can even do it for less. And dedicated student support means we'll be with you from day one to graduation and beyond. Join a community of learners just like you. Go to snhu.edu today to start your free application.