Trust: Part 4

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Hey, I'm David Kern PERSON.

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I'm Heidi White PERSON.

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I'm Tim McIntosh PERSON. And I'm Sean Johnson PERSON. And you are listening to Close Read the podcast for The Incurable Reader, on which we are discussing Aaron Diaz's novel Trust WORK_OF_ART. We're discussing part four, which is the last part, so it really means we're discussing

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the whole book, which means that we can talk about all the stuff that we were dancing around previously. How's it going, guys? Sean PERSON, how are you? I'm great.

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I have read the entirety of trust now.

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You're going to be the key player on this podcast, Sean PERSON,

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because we're going to be curious.

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We're going to be wanting to experience it for the first time again through your eyes.

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That's fair. I feel like the exciting thing for me, though, is that I can finally, I'm finally on the same page with the rest of you. Like literally?

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Is that like a book joke?

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Yeah, I'm at the afterward. Is that where you stopped?

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The acknowledgments page?

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Acknowledgments, yeah.

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I've got my I've got my, like, jot pad here to, that I used to write down questions. And I feel like this is going to be one of those ones where it's going to, it's going to be necessary. We have to keep that handy. I'll keep the cap off my pen, so to speak.Heidi PERSON, how are you?

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I'm doing so great. I'm really excited. I have two things I'm excited about. One is talking about the end of this book. And the other is that Jack White is, like, currently obsessed with reading British murder mysteries. This is your son, not the artist.

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This is my son. And he and I are now, now we have this thing in common and it's so exciting.

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That's pretty great. I know. He just read the mirror, the mirror cracked. Oh, yeah. Nice.

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He has been, right, he's sick.

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And currently right now watching Sherlock WORK_OF_ART, which I think is a good show.

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Oh, I like Sherlock WORK_OF_ART.

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Yeah.

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So, Tim PERSON, how does your offspring feel about murder mysteries?

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Loves them, finds them a bit jejun.

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Yeah.

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I'm trying to like, like, just blase.

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Like she's over it.

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She's so sophisticated.

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Right.

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At age, 13 months.

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I think, I think Brendan PERSON recently chewed on one of my murder mysteries.

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I was just about to say, the big triumph for Arden right now is she's wearing real shoes.

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That's kind of where she is.

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That's exciting.

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Is that because she can't take them off?

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Oh, if they're sandals, she's taking them off.

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If they're real shoes, she can't take them off.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I just finished death by Jezebel PERSON or death of Jezebel, which we're going to do on the show.

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And it is so good.

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You guys.

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I totally forgot.

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I need to read that book.

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You've got to read it. It's great. I can't wait to talk about it. And it is so good. You guys. I totally forgot I need to read that book. You've got to read it.

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It's great.

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I can't wait to talk about it.

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We got to get that

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that recording schedule.

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That's right.

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Yeah.

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And speaking of which we have that,

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we've got Christian Laverin's PERSON daughter.

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We also have the daily poem.

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Lots of stuff going on in the close reads verse,

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the CR verse.

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And then. Withie Wendell?

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Yeah, withy Wendell. Yeah, Withie Wendell's PERSON, yeah, exactly. We got five episodes of that, this current season up. And then Tim plays a thing, the King John WORK_OF_ART episode's up now. What are you doing after that? Like, what should people be looking for? Some reruns?

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We have commentators who made a contribution to the show. I asked them to kind of leave little audio messages, audio memories about things they most enjoyed about the show. So that's probably going to drop in the next couple of days. Then I'm being interviewed by the Searcy Institute, Matt Bianco PERSON. Oh, my God.

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Just about kind of like a retrospective of the whole thing. And then we're going to start going back into the archives for previous Shakespeare PERSON podcasts.

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This weekend, I'm going to see our friend Haley in Minton, Alabama GPE.

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Shout out to Haley PERSON.

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And I'm speaking about Shakespeare PERSON to her library board that she's now a part of.

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Nice.

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It's basically like a good excuse to come see Haley PERSON, to go see Haley.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Haley PERSON, for the show.

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Friends show.

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Right.

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For Witty Wendell PERSON, you know, we do this snack time and kids send in snacks,

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and her kids sent us a box of dill pickled flavor things.

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So there's pickle chips, but then there was also like pickled cashew and pickled popcorn

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and spicy dill popcorn.

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Some of it was better than others. There was pickle chips, but then there was also like pickled cashew and pickled popcorn and spicy dill popcorn. Some of it was better than others.

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There was pickle cotton candy.

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That was not my favorite.

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Sorry, Haley PERSON.

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I think that sounds gross.

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I love you.

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There was like these candies that were, it was a roulette thing where they're all green, they're all the same

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color, and there's pickle, but then there's green apple, watermelon, and lemon lime. So,

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you're on, so you're going to get, you never know what you're going to get. But let me tell you,

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the pickle one's not great. That was not a fun experience. I mean, it's a fun experience,

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but, you know, your taste buds aren't real thrilled. Anyway, on the air? Yeah, we did. We eat

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all of it on the air and it taste test it. Yeah. And Graham PERSON's just spitting things out

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into microphones and stuff. I mean, cleaning up the floor in my studio since then.

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Well, anyway, speaking of things that are, that are fun, unlike eating,

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you know, pickled, I didn't like the cashews very much, or the cotton candy. It's not about trust,which is also green. It's a green cover. Oh, so. Yeah, the color of money.

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Green like money. That's right.

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Now, I just, I think I'm missing this to you guys. We are getting hammered right now with a big storm, and it's really dark outside.

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You have to get closer to the mic.

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And if, um, or lose you there for a second. Oh, sorry.

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And if I, you lose me altogether, it's because the power went out in this whole building. And I, you know, I might lose the internet. So just, uh, going to put that out there and hope it doesn't happen. Um, Sean PERSON, we've been dancing around it

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both over the last three weeks at the beginning of this episode. So you read the, you read the whole

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thing. You read the big reveal. Uh, you know, good podcasting doesn't have open-ended questions

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too often, but how did you feel about it? I felt all kinds of things.

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I felt all kinds of things.

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I felt betrayed, vindicated, surprised, shocked, aghast. A gog?

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A gackle,

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even. That one's not real.

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Did you just open up your thesaurus? Yeah, that's right.

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Sean PERSON, do you remember the line or the paragraph or you're like, oh, gosh, now I see?

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It was the first entry in the journal. I mean, the moment I actually heard Mildred PERSON's voice, everything blew wide open. I mean, it was clear immediately, holy cow, this woman is not any of the women that we have heard about so far. And there's something kind of dark here.In fact, after the first page, I thought for a moment, what if Mildred is Harold Vanner PERSON? That thought entered my mind. But I don't think that's the case because she, I mean, she writes letters to Harold Vanner PERSON.

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Right.

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Right. But he was such a non-existent figure up to that point. But for a moment, I thought, oh, my goodness, she wrote that novel about herself. But it's almost that. What we get is almost on that level.And then as soon as she begins to talk about, speak about her husband at all, I mean, the, the damage was done. I had, you know, this vision of this other woman began to solidify. And it was, and then you were just hooked. You're buckled into the roller coaster and you're along for the ride. And then, of course, ultimately revealed that she was,

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probably the architect of the crash.

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Yeah, behind all of his success, or at least most of it.

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Or, I mean, I guess at least claims to the game.

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Yeah, that's right.

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So, Heidi, I know, I think we'll talk about that in a minute. Let's, I know where to start exactly. Yeah. We've got the Harold Vannard PERSON of all.

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There's so much to talk about.

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Where do we even start?

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We've got the, yeah, we've got the Harold Vanner PERSON of it.

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I've got, I want to talk about at some point, not the beginning, but at some point some comments that the author has actually made about the book in a couple of interviews, because I want to see if we think what we think he's actually trying to say. Tim, did reading this section a second time, I've read the whole book a second time,has your perspective on any of it changed compared to that first time that you read it? I mean, hopefully it's deepened,

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but my, like the way that I, where I landed at the end of the book, I think is where I landed at the end of the second reading, if that makes sense. Like, oh, I think this is what just happened. What do you mean?

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So you have any time to you read it now?

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Twice. This was the second time.

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Do you feel like where you land now is the same as where you land when you read it the first time?

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Yeah. And I tried to read it with suspicious eyes a little bit this time. Or I'm more critical. I took a more critical look this time or a more critical I took a more critical look this time but I kind of ended upin the same place

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so let's talk about how we feel about how we respond to this woman as Sean PERSON said she's not the same woman that we've been introduced toin the novel or in part two in parts of one or two certainly and the in part two you know in parts of one or two certainly um and then in part three she's only alluded to because ida PERSON never meets her she's only you know she's only on the she's her memory is sort of floating around she's like this ghost like figure on the edges of ida's experience sean the reading part one do you come away from it?How would you describe her? Put it that way.

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I mean, in part four.

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Part four. Part four. What did I say?

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Part one? Yeah, part four. Yeah. Yeah.

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Well, she

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maybe psychopath is too strong. But like I said, I said the other day, she's the Kaiser Sosa PERSON of the novel. And she is this mysterious and absent figure who when she arrives and emerges is bad maybe,is also a strong word. But she's got an edge to her. She defies all of the descriptions that we have, that we have been given so far. But my hope throughout the novel was that she would emerge as a better character than we expected, and I think the opposite happens. Like morally better.

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Morally better.

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Yeah, that you pity her.

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We talked about this question, even in part one.

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In the novel, she has presented as a pitiable character.

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And perhaps Harold Vanner PERSON in his sort of, who knows, maybe even Harold Vanner was in love with her.

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But as this friend who has a kind of affection for her, and maybe is a perceptive person who can see or thinks he perceives what her life is like with her husband, writes this version of her that is put upon and is isolated, and you really do pity her. And then by the end of part three, I think you pity her because you get the sense that her husband is erasing her and rewriting her, right, his memories of her, which is an interpretation of part three that part four totally inverts. And so you think that she will finally,will get to meet her and see her from who she is and hear her in her own words. And so you think that she will finally will get to meet her and see her from who she is and hear her in her own words. And she'll be this sort of self-effacing saint who went through all of that and had all of those different interpretations put upon her and bore them with a plumb and whatever. But she's kind of mean and snobbish.One of the most withering sections in the whole of part four is when her husband arranges that little concert for her and she says oh well, it was a nice thought. Too bad they chose, you know,such pedestrian works of classical music to play for me. Right. Yeah. It was just Pocobel's Canon and D20 PRODUCT times. Wish that guy knew what I liked. It was just, that was so heart-rending.

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And there is something pitiable about her. You can, I mean, she does, she is isolated in a sense, but it's an isolation of her own doing

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and because of her suffering, physical suffering, not because she's

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the victim of any of the people around her. So, Heidi PERSON. Yeah. Agree? I mean, this is, I have a feeling

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this is going to be how we interpret her, how we feel about her could be one of those things that

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is a bit of a division. I love her.

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Okay, why? So how would you describe her?

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I love her. John says she's Kaiser-Sose ORG and she's a psychopath.

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I think I disagree, but I think that she is, she definitely orchestrated the crash.

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She doesn't have any reason to lie in her diary.

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So I trust her more than Ida WORK_OF_ART.

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Yeah, I think that's true.

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I would agree with that.

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And she even specifically says in the diary,

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and I believe her, that she is disguising her handwriting even more so that Andrew

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will not read and find out so that he won't be crushed. I think that she is a genius woman in a man's world that did navigate it the best that she could from behind the scenes. And in so doing became, I think, a diabolical version of herself, to your point, Sean PERSON. I didn't interpret her response to Andrew PERSON in the same way. I, as you did, even that one moment when she deplores the, um, the music choices, I interpreted it more as she appreciated the gesture, um, but she has a more sophisticatedunderstanding of music, um, not just a more sophisticated understanding of music. She's a genius, and she far exceeds everybody in intelligence in the whole book, and her husband can't keep up with her, and that's the big secret.And so he arranged something he thought that she would like because she likes music, but he knows nothing, and she was like, it was sweet of him but i don't it's it's too obvious right it's kitsch that was the whole thing about their

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their country house um it was um like he can't keep up with her he is a fool compared to her, even though he's reasonably an intelligent guy.

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But this whole idea of Andrew Bevel PERSON as this diabolical mastermind was actually not true.

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And laughably not true. Exactly. And so, but she seems to be trying, like she holds him in contempt, but I, I saw it as a contempt in the sense of like, I wish I had was married to a better man who could keep, and I don't mean a morally better man. Like I wish I, I wish there's somebody in my life who could keep up with me. And so he's trying his best, but he just ends up being a bumbler.

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And it was sweet of him, but he can't keep up with me.

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And she knows that.

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And so she's looking back and reflecting on her life with a, I don't know, a sense of lament and loss, but she, not the same kind of moral vision that you or I would have for sure.

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I mean, to her, to her credit, she does put some of her journal in terms of confession, if to no one but herself, at least to utter things in a way to

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unburden herself.

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I mean, she has a sense of guilt over some of the things that she's done and said.

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She does.

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She does seem in denial about her role. Like, she knows that she was the one who orchestrated the crash, but she continues to justify

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it until the day of her death.

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And she seems very much to be like, well, if he took credit, he can also take blame. And that she's honest about the struggles in their marriage. She's just so far beyond him in intelligence that the best she can do is pity and a little bit of remorse, but I think that is the best she can do and she's trying to do it. But I was so, I remember the first time I read it and then again, I've read part four twice now in this second read. And I'm so, I was just so pleased to meet a narrator who is actually self-revelatory in a self-conscious way.Yeah.

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Yeah, that's, I would agree with that too. I think part four was the most refreshing. Even though I was, I was struck and troubled by the character that was revealed, it was the most refreshing to read someone who was self, well, self-critical, but just self-aware. Even that is more than some of the other narrator's muster.Tim Jumpin PERSON, what's your sense of her?

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I also think that we're supposed to understand her to be a genius.

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I mean, that's maybe the primary thing we're supposed to take away from the fourth section,

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along with the responsibility that she takes for the stock market.

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I really enjoyed her on the one hand

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because I loved listening to her. I don't think I would have liked being married to her. I think like, man, if I could have sat next to her at a party and really got to pick her brain, I think I would love that conversation and would find her really engaging,serious, multifaceted. But she seems like she's difficult. How much of that, how much of her difficulties because she's on her deathbed and she's dying of cancer? In constant pain. It's nobody's,

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it's, yeah, in constant pain and there's real treatment, and she knows there's no real treatment.

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So I think she was probably a lot more delightful when she was not on her deathbed. So maybe I give more of a pass to her on that. And I shouldn't say I wouldn't like to be married to her. Because who knows what she would be like to be married to when she was actually in good health. Who knows? It seems clear that

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she was difficult to be married to. And I understand like you at probably you guys as men can't

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say that as clearly as I can on the show. But like it seems very clear that she is. I'm sure she was

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nice. That she's a very, that her intelligence far outstrips anybody in her circle, including her husband, who's one of the richest and most talented men in New York GPE, right? Like, he's good at his job, but she is a genius. And he resents her for her success and then he is spent their entire marriage telling him like trying to kind of make her remake her in his image like and i can see this push-pull that dynamic that becomes so clear in part four that he needs her but hates her for itright and then sheeney PERSON um then she and, and, and she feels the same way, right? She needs him but hates him for it. And that created so much trouble between them. And we see in part two so clearly the kind of wife he wanted. And the kind of wife he is determined to make her legacy appear that he had that wife. And so I think it is very clear that she was difficult to be married to. And so was he.And we finally, I think, get some glimpse into a, what their marriage was, quote, really like. I even have that in air quotes because we get it from her perspective. And so we can't really know. But it's very clear that part two is not what their marriage was like. And so at least we have something in part four. And I just think that Diaz PERSON succeeded in making her voice so unique, so compelling, and so absolutely herself in a sea of untrustworthy narratives. of untrustworthy narratives. And I just love reading that part. And I was telling David PERSON off the air, I have a really, like I am so pro-Mildred in this sectionthat as we've said all along, this is a book that is kind of a mirror into your own perceptions. And I'm just, like he painted so well an intellectual woman in a world that has no room for her. And what happened to her and the culture around her as a result of that. And I'm like 100% in on it.And I can't separate myself from that.

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So I'm just going to say that right out. Like I'm very, very pro-Mildred NORP and defensive of her.

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And I think that the book succeeds in that way. Kind of like in a metafiction level, I can step outside of myself as a reader and say, I don't know if I can even trust myself reading this section because it's so compelling to me.

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And so that raises up that whole meta fiction question again.

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Yeah, I mean, personally, I think that's actively the point.

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I do too.

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And so I'm just saying it on front.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Cause the, she caused the crash.

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I still love her.

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Because I, like, relate to her in some ways.

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And then that's the whole point.

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Because you're a genius.

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No, of course I'm not.

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Whose husband doesn't?

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Yeah.

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I don't want to talk about it anymore.

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But this is, and I, I'm only saying that that not because I don't want Mildred PERSON criticize.

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I'm saying that because I'm saying the book is doing its job.

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Right.

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On me as a reader and so that I can kind of rise above myself and see I'm reacting to the narratives.

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The way that Hernand Diaz PERSON is inviting us to, and it's totally worked on me, at least.

Speaker 11467.76s - 1469.12s

Tim, you were going to say something a second ago, maybe?

Speaker 01469.68s - 1470.62s

No, no, no.

Speaker 11471.22s - 1471.9s

Do you want to say something now?

Speaker 01472.64s - 1474.24s

No. I don't have anything.

Speaker 51476.08s - 1479.84s

So, okay, we've got to talk about the Harold Vanner PERSON part of this.

Speaker 21480.24s - 1484.04s

Why does the novel end the way that it ends, I think is a really important question.

Speaker 51484.2s - 1582.08s

Why does it end with her in this basically being treated to death, so to speak, when that seems to in no way have been a part of any version of reality. It's not a part of her version of it. It's not a part of her husband's version of it. I never gets mentioned in Ida, but it shows up in the Vanner PERSON novel. We need to talk about why that is.I think a big question, though, is the book spends a lot of time challenging the notion or the moral status of the work that the bevels are doing. And it spends the whole book in questioning that, asking us to look at, whichever name you want to use, or, well, it makes you look at Bevel, Andrew PERSON,as a villain. Basically, every part in some way, either because his own perspective is so, presented in such a shallow way or because other people view him this way view him in a villainous waywe are meant to take his actions and his perspective on the world as fundamentally morally bankrupt pun intendedand yet at the end it twists things and it gives voice to the voiceless. It's in this very like, not shocking, but a very profound way. She hasn't had a voice. It's giving voice to her.And in giving voice to her is showing her agency in these actions.

Speaker 21582.98s - 1585.94s

But the problem is, or the complication is not a problem.

Speaker 51586.04s - 1689.56s

I mean, this is what's kind of genius by Diaz PERSON. It takes that moral certitude that the book has presented surrounding Rask PERSON and his behavior. And then it, through her confessions, through giving her voice, it then puts it on her to some degree. So you can't come away from it. You have to then apply the moral perspective on capitalism and on these behaviors of these financiersand apply them to her. So does that create a sort of nihilistic, there is no truth set of framework for this moral order? Because ittakes this character who we have had sympathy for whose voice we and your way reading and then asks us to say, wow, she's a genius but also wait, maybe she's the real villain here.You know, like, if she claims, if, if it's true that she has done all the things that she has done, and she caused the crash and all these different things, then if we're going to look at Benjamin Rask PERSON, I mean, Andrew Bevel, Benjamin Rask, whichever one, as a, I get them, I just conflate them, because I've got lots of thoughts on that. If we make them, him, the villain throughout the whole book for those behaviors, then, and those actions, then her doing them, we then have to take that and apply it to her too,except that we don't really want to because she's the one that's being given voice for the first time. So how do you guys interpret what the book is asking us to think about in terms of that moral order? Because it has been presenting it as a moral question throughout the whole book. Patty, do you want to go first? It looks like...

Speaker 01689.56s - 1820.34s

Yeah, I think that the book is not nihilistic. I think there is a moral order. But I think that the book is coming at this the assumption that rigging a crashlike by choosing the Great Depression right that crash of 1929 there's other crashes right that's the onethat that are not de aspect everybody knows about it and everybody knows the devastation that followed it and everybody hates that there's knows about it, and everybody knows the devastation that followed it, and everybody hates that. There's nobody who does, there's nobody defending the Great Depression EVENT, right?And then he gives us this couple and Ida WORK_OF_ART, as this ambiguous, shadowy figures around this, that have their own, the, the, the, the bevels have their own mythology all around them and are both very compelling people and nobody really knows them, not even themselves, I think. And so the moral order of the book assumes that rigging the crash is a morally abhorrent thing to do.And it never lets anybody off the hook or it never says that that was somehow okay. And reading Mildred Bevel PERSON as the villain is absolutely valid. Reading Andrew Bevel PERSON as the villain is absolutely valid. Reading them both. But there is a villain. There is a moral order. It's not nihilistic.What is playing with, I think, is our perceptions of it. And as I've said before and stick to it, I think that Andrew Bevel PERSON is too easy of a target in the book for it to be as simple as it was all his fault. And certainly that's complicated, of course, by this revelation that it was Mildred PERSON, Mildred PERSON's genius behind it the whole time.But I don't think that the book just shifts blame and says it's, now it's her and he's

Speaker 11820.34s - 1821.26s

off the hook, right?

Speaker 21821.64s - 1829.66s

It's playing with the fact that there's a private, that private individuals create public consequences.

Speaker 11830.78s - 1838.58s

And yet they are still human people who those consequences are far past what they may have

Speaker 01838.58s - 1868.42s

intended. And even their justifications of it are frail and based on their human need, not just them being these like villainous ogres behind the scenes. And so in that sense, I think he's very Shakespearean and that he gives us these human stories and then asks, but lets us just stand there kind of holding the Great Depression EVENT and all its devastation and being like, you guys figure it out. Who are you blaming?

Speaker 41870.72s - 1957.94s

Yeah, I thought that was such a fascinating effect of part four, because you have labored under the assumption that whatever view we're presented with of Beville PERSON and his activities, at the end of the day, he did all this. And then you realize, you get this picture of him as a husband to Mildred in part four, that recasts all of his justification as potentially a way to protect and redefine his wife. way to protect and redefine his wife. But then you're left asking, does that make it any better? He's still offered in earnest these justifications.So he's still expressed as little sympathy for the people injured by the crash. So, yeah, it's not like the blame shifts 100% from one person to another. And then you just get these, this complicated, messy, moral question that I totally agree. He doesn't ignore that there is a moral universe or, you know, a standard of what is good and decent or wicked. But yeah, it is very Shakespearean NORP. It's hard to assign blame or vindicate in a cut and dry way.

Speaker 31958.86s - 1985.2s

She is the one who, she has these two moments in the book that I think show that she's a very complex person. The first one is when she kind of understands there are only three people that are really in charge of the market. Remember when she kind of figures out how to shortcut the communications lag in the ticker? And she just mentions it to Andrew PERSON. The bribe.

Speaker 41985.24s - 1988.08s

I guess not thinking that he would do anything. Right.

Speaker 31988.08s - 1990s

Yeah, she just observes that it's possible.

Speaker 41990.58s - 1990.82s

Right.

Speaker 31991.88s - 1992.88s

And then he does it.

Speaker 41993.98s - 2007.8s

And she is so irate that she doesn't speak to him for two years. And you can understand. Like, I was just kind of mentioning this. This is an observation. And he goes and he makes a billion dollars off of it.

Speaker 32007.8s - 2022.1s

But then later, when she articulates her plan about working the market in 1929, the mode that she explains it is completely aesthetic.

Speaker 22023.12s - 2025.5s

It will make for a beautiful music

Speaker 32025.5s - 2031.72s

when the kind of wave comes back on itself and it would be like a Schoenberg PERSON symphony

Speaker 02031.72s - 2033.78s

or I can't remember exactly how she describes it.

Speaker 32034.52s - 2041.98s

And at that point I think that she has, she's now lost any sort of moral...

Speaker 42041.98s - 2043.66s

Yeah, that's the Hannibal Lecter PERSON moment right there.

Speaker 32043.9s - 2097.44s

Right. You're like, oh man, the mask is now off. And you're willing to kind of play this game because, like, it makes a beautiful crescendo of music. And that's what we're going to do now. And so between those two moments of irate at Andrew PERSON for gaming the system and then using her intellect to undermine the system and then using her intellectto undermine the system and cause this big crash. I kind of wonder what happened. You know, is this just, was orchestrating the crashon her part just brought about by boredom? She mentions, yeah, I'd gotten a little bit, what is the word that she describes todescribe herself? I'd kind of gotten into the gotten a little bit, what is the word that she describes to describe herself? I'd kind of gotten into the game a little bit or something like that. And you're like, well, yeah, you got into the game, like so much so that you crashed the whole system.

Speaker 02097.44s - 2110.6s

I found her explanation as to what changed to be a little bit pretty thin, a pretty thin explanation.

Speaker 32111.22s - 2126.34s

Like, I think something else must have happened. Like, I got a little bit acquisitive, and I decided I was going to crash the entire stock market. I don't know that really jives. I think for her what

Speaker 52126.34s - 2196.72s

he gives her this like bit of money right that she can play around with and turns out she's really good at it and it keeps building thisthis fun so to speak and I think it kind of begins as this intellectual activity for her to which she can apply her yeah her precocious skills and her. Because she's bored. To which she can apply her, yeah, her precocious skills and her,yeah, well, she would make friends with people. She'd be less bored. But she, although the kind of people who do this kind of stuff, probably don't make friends anyway. So she begins as this intellectual activity for her,but then she describes it as turning into what she describes as dark fuel. Yeah. And it intellectual activity for her, but then she describes it as turning into what she describes as dark fuel. Yeah. And it begins to fuel her drive. It's not about the money for her, I don't, very often. I mean, she doesn't describe it in a way.It's like, I got to travel more. I got to buy more paintings for the home. Or look at my shoes, you know, look at my shoe collection of the gowns. Or, you know, think about the way collection of the gowns or, you know, she, think about the way she describes the ring that he gives.She doesn't care about those kind of things. For her, it's like this, it's a sense of power, this sense of agency.

Speaker 22197.48s - 2198.6s

And on the one hand,

Speaker 12198.7s - 2200.94s

it is empowering because she is someone who,

Speaker 22201.42s - 2220.34s

she's a woman in a man's world, as you put at Heidi PERSON. And so that is an empowering thing to be a woman in a man's world, as you put at Heidi PERSON. And so that is an empowering thing to be able to find a way to have power. But the power that, you know, she just,the dark, dark fuel is a pretty profound way of phrasing it, I think, and it becomes about control. It becomes about,

Speaker 52221.4s - 2268.14s

it becomes about having those things, having that agency, having that control, having that power for the sake of itself. It stops to be, it becomes about having those things, having that agency, having that control, having that power for the sake of itself. It stops to be, it creates money then becomes this abstraction. I mean, the book talks about the idea that money is a fiction, right? The money is an abstraction. Like, until you apply it to something, like, and we're talking about numbers thatare so large, the human mind can't even comprehend them, right? And so I think once it switches to that, the intellectual activity, the process, the game turns into power for its own sake. And I'm using that loosely. I think that's a pretty important moment in her career. And I think it's why ultimately she suggests at one point that she got cancer because of doing

Speaker 12268.14s - 2270.16s

this. Yeah. And

Speaker 52270.16s - 2296.28s

I think she says I don't believe in magic. I think what she said? I don't believe in magic but the viciousness of cancer after the crash didn't feel like a coincidence. And that I guess plays into the idea of themoral order of the story as well, that even she seems to believe there's something hovering over the edge of their world. But it's, well, anyway, I'll stop there.

Speaker 02296.38s - 2313.26s

You were going to say something, Heidi PERSON. I think it's the pattern. Like, she sees these patterns, and she has to close them. The same way you get to an end of a piece of music and you have to have that final resting note. Like she sees these patterns in her mind, the spider.

Speaker 52313.38s - 2315.7s

You mean like in the market, in the structure?

Speaker 02315.7s - 2316.58s

And everywhere.

Speaker 52316.78s - 2325.52s

And even with the cancer, right? Like she started something and the universe has to finish it. It's justice. It's a resettling of the balance, right?

Speaker 02326.96s - 2378.38s

And so she knows what she did and she sees cancer as a fitting just like recompense for that. Like I was the cancer in America GPE. Now I'm eaten away from within by cancer, right? And for her being as like through part four kind of being behind her eyes, it seems to me that she can see these patterns that nobody else sees and she has to make them manifest in the world.And like that's what drives her. So it's not, I agree with you that it's power, but I think it's not power or money for their own sake. Like she's not tempted like Andrew PERSON is by like the being seen a certain way, prestige, right? Nobody knows it's her. She's content with that. She doesn't really care.

Speaker 12378.86s - 2382.04s

She just wants the opportunity to do it to close the loop.

Speaker 02382.24s - 2384.72s

Like ding dong, ding don, don, don't, don't.

Speaker 12384.8s - 2406.24s

She has to get to the final resting notes. And if the market crashes for that, so be it. It's an imaginary space anyway. It's out there. It's the pattern. The pattern is what matters.The pattern is more real the same way music is. And I think that's her motive, which is not an excuse.

Speaker 02406.36s - 2410.4s

When I say love Mildren Bebble PERSON, it's not like I want to be her or I relate to her.

Speaker 12410.74s - 2415.96s

It's that I can see when I'm behind her eyes, I'm like, oh, I get you.

Speaker 22416.66s - 2417.86s

I know what you want.

Speaker 12418.48s - 2424.62s

And it's something that's beyond just your appetites, or maybe it is, but in a different way.

Speaker 02424.82s - 2431.52s

And I just find her the most compelling character. something that's beyond just your appetites, or maybe it is, but in a different way. And I just find her the most compelling character. So I just want to make clear that I am not saying I am like her.

Speaker 12434.88s - 2437.68s

Or you would, if given the opportunity, you crash the markets. Devastating millions of people. Yeah.

Speaker 02443.46s - 2465.12s

But I do have a little bit in me of like I see the patterns and I want to see them resolve. I, like, want that in different ways. But when I'm behind her eyes in part four, I'm like, oh, that's why she did it. She's, and I'm not excusing it by any means. But it's just such a compelling character. If you see her as a villain, she's a compelling villain. If you see her in a different way, she's absolutely a complicated, compelling character if you see her as a villain she's a compelling villain

Speaker 52465.12s - 2468.48s

if you see her in a different way she's absolutely a complicated

Speaker 02468.48s - 2471.38s

compelling character yeah yeah yeah Sean PERSON what were you going to say

Speaker 52471.38s - 2473.52s

oh no

Speaker 42473.52s - 2476.26s

that's precisely that yeah

Speaker 32476.26s - 2487.12s

I wonder if there's something going on in her attitude toward modern music which might be a little bit instructive of how she perceives the world.

Speaker 02487.38s - 2492.92s

I was just trying to find a section where she, it's early on in part four, where she's describing

Speaker 32492.92s - 2535.96s

kind of like the mode of modern music is to break from. There's a kind of inherited order in Western music and now we're moving toward a more primitive state. I think that's important. I wish I could find this section. I think it's important because she sees patterns obviously in the stock market and part of what she wants to bring about is some sort of cathartic musical expression in the stock market based on her kind of witness of genius. Right.

Speaker 02536.04s - 2542.08s

And I wonder all of part four was written after the stock market.

Speaker 22542.48s - 2548.42s

And I'm trying to think like, okay, did her affection for modern music, was that always the

Speaker 32548.42s - 2580.92s

case? Because she is perceived to be this kind of monumental genius who she's going to see what Schoenberg PERSON is trying to do before anybody else sees what Schoenberg is trying to do. Yes, I think that she is, we're meant to perceive her as that level of genius. But I also wonder if there's something going on in her affection of the kind of collapsing order of modern music that is actually prefiguring what's happening inside her in some way.

Speaker 02581.28s - 2586.44s

Does that make any sense? I mean, I'm making a little bit of a stretch here. No, I think that's exactly right.

Speaker 42587.2s - 2592.46s

Well, I think that connects to her genius too, right, in her boredom, because she says the thing

Speaker 02592.46s - 2599.82s

that she derides in what we would call it more traditional classical music is that you know

Speaker 42599.82s - 2639.56s

what you're going to hear before you hear it. And it's not that modern music is unpredictable. It's that only the brilliant can predict it. Because she's still, when she's talking about the crash in musical terms, she lays out the pattern and says, see, it's this chaotic reversal and inversion. It's not just forward and backward and then backward and forward. It's, it is predictable, and it is a pattern, but it's this chiasic reversal and inversion. It's not just forward and backward and then backward and forward. It is predictable and it is a pattern, but it's a far more complex and intricate patternthat is harder for the Hoy-Polloy to see. And I think that's why she's drawn to it.

Speaker 32639.56s - 2644.86s

And I even wonder, Sean PERSON, that's not only what she's drawn to,

Speaker 42668.8s - 2668.88s

And I even wonder, Sean, that's not only what she's drawn to, but I almost think that she is frustrated at the order of the world almost, meaning, like, here's a line, to 376, writing letters, distracted by unseen birds, unable to break their bonds to two or, sorry, break their bondage to their two or four notes.

Speaker 32670.7s - 2671.74s

I wish I had some knowledge of ornithology.

Speaker 02675.52s - 2675.98s

Anybody else would hear the birds, and be like, oh, my gosh.

Speaker 22676.76s - 2677.28s

Birds are singing.

Speaker 02680.38s - 2680.96s

Birds are singing, a sign of life and frivolity.

Speaker 32685s - 2685.44s

But she's like, I hear bondage in those two or four notes.

Speaker 42685.56s - 2687.88s

You know? Do you think that's part of, I agree with you.

Speaker 32688.02s - 2695.24s

And I think that that's part of what you were talking about last week, which is the underlying feminism of this novel.

Speaker 02695.9s - 2736.96s

And I think this is, and I'll just, now I can be direct about this. This is why I don't like Ida WORK_OF_ART. Is, Ida just is overtly hostile. And Mildred PERSON is trying to make her way. She's, and this is why I think I disagree with you, Sean PERSON, about her relationship with her husband. Okay. She's, she's hard on herself. She's, it feels bad because she mildly snaps at him that one time, right?She's like, I feel so bad because I let him know that I'm smarter than him. So it's clear that throughout their whole marriage, she's been trying to hold herself back.

Speaker 12737.6s - 2746.4s

And it'd be like if you meet somebody and you tell them that that we love like literature, right?

Speaker 02746.58s - 2759.36s

And we have a book club podcast and all these things. And then the next time we see them, they're like, look, I got you the New York Times ORG bestseller, right? Because you like books, right? Or like, I got you. If you go to someone who loves art and you're like, I got you this Thomas Kincaid painting.

Speaker 12760.24s - 2765.38s

Like she's married to the guy that if she loved art would give her a Thomas Kincaid painting. Yeah.

Speaker 02765.74s - 2776.34s

And so then when he tries to do this nice thing for her by giving her this concert, she's like, he did his best, but he gave me a freaking Thomas Kincaid painting. And he's been married to me for how long?

Speaker 52777.28s - 2781.82s

Yeah, but there's a lot of people who are married to people that would give them, they don't care about the things that they care about.

Speaker 02781.98s - 2787.94s

I know, but it hurts her. And then she's hard on herself when she lets that slip.

Speaker 22788.52s - 2801.04s

And she feels a sense of catharsis when she resists him on her dying, on her deathbed, when he just wants her to, when he's like, can you help me figure out my finances? And she finally says no.

Speaker 02801.96s - 2806.16s

And then she feels a sense of guilt and then catharsis.

Speaker 22806.9s - 2813.38s

So it is clear that she, to me, that she has been restraining herself with every effort

Speaker 02813.38s - 2817.46s

to be a good wife for him.

Speaker 22818.02s - 2820.2s

And he's never seen her.

Speaker 02820.32s - 2825.04s

And sometimes she's fine with that. Sometimes he hates her for it. Right. And it's complicated between them because that's fine with that. Sometimes he hates her for it. Right.

Speaker 12825.46s - 2828.84s

And it's complicated between them because that's a complicated dynamic.

Speaker 22830.12s - 2836.78s

But to me, she seems way more like the Benjamin Rask PERSON that we're given in Harold Vanner's

Speaker 12836.78s - 2839.16s

book than she does like anybody else in the novel.

Speaker 02839.16s - 2843.92s

If we're going to fictionalize anybody as another character, she's way more like Benjamin

Speaker 12843.92s - 2846.1s

Rask than she has like her own portrayal

Speaker 42846.1s - 2847.9s

in that novel. I think that's right.

Speaker 12848.3s - 2849.82s

That's one of the things, too, is

Speaker 42849.82s - 2906.88s

that the I mean, this is not a surprise maybe, but the way that Diaz orchestrates those momentsthat the upsetting of other perceptions of Mildred PERSON. Harold Vanner PERSON is corresponding with her even when she's in this cancer ward. Obviously, they have some sort of friendship. And yet, he seems to read their situation as if her husband is the bad guy. And part four reveals that Harold Vanner didn't know Mildred PERSON half as well as he thought.Part three, and it feels like reading part four felt like this kind of revenge upon Ida WORK_OF_ART's. Because at the end of part three, she walks off with this diary thinking she's going to hear the voice of this kindred spirit.

Speaker 22908.02s - 2919.8s

But I think she's in for a nasty surprise too. There's a Graham Green PERSON novel that ends that way where this innocent character, I don't think I does innocent, but this innocent character has a,

Speaker 42920.8s - 2951.3s

married to this nasty guy who makes a, they go to this novelty booth and he makes this phonograph recording for her. And he records on itall of these nasty things that he says to her. But between the making of this record and her getting to listen to it, he dies. And the last scene of the novel is her going off to listen to this record thinking,

Speaker 02951.48s - 2952.86s

I have this one remaining.

Speaker 12952.86s - 2953.58s

This memory of him.

Speaker 02953.58s - 2954.5s

Memory of him.

Speaker 12956s - 2960.58s

And that's sort of how the end of part three read to me after part four.

Speaker 02960.78s - 2961.34s

That's great.

Speaker 42961.74s - 2964.8s

Oh, I mean, I absolutely believe that's what, yeah, this is doing.

Speaker 02965.32s - 2968.74s

This is an, you know, an inversion of what you're expecting.

Speaker 52968.9s - 2970s

I mean, playing with your expectations.

Speaker 22970s - 2975.94s

I think he's, I think he, well, we can talk about that a minute.

Speaker 52976.62s - 2982.56s

Do you want to talk more about the Vanner PERSON thing now? I mean, we can talk more about, um, sure, whatever.

Speaker 02983.46s - 2986.4s

Mild's acid cells

Speaker 52986.4s - 2987.18s

I mean we can only

Speaker 02987.18s - 2988.06s

speculate at this point

Speaker 52988.06s - 2989.08s

that was the one thing I hope

Speaker 42989.08s - 2991.04s

to get to find out more about

Speaker 52991.04s - 2993.06s

but maybe the answer is there isn't more to find out

Speaker 42993.06s - 2995.06s

that was the one thing you wanted to know

Speaker 02995.06s - 2996.8s

I was like well too bad

Speaker 42996.8s - 2997.98s

what was

Speaker 02997.98s - 2999.28s

just why

Speaker 42999.28s - 3005.6s

what's up with Harold Vanner why do you write that book I think he was in love with Mildred do you think Mildred PERSON.

Speaker 03007.94s - 3009.8s

Do you think Mildred PERSON was his source?

Speaker 43021.26s - 3027.9s

I think it strikes me, I mean, the way that Diaz has constructed it, that maybe he is close enough to Mildred PERSON to think he's closer to Mildred than he is and that his perception is the source.

Speaker 03027.96s - 3029.4s

That relationship is the source.

Speaker 43030s - 3038.04s

But not that she has given him any sort of inside information or confessional information. Well, why does he make her die the way he

Speaker 53038.04s - 3040.7s

does in the novel? Tim PERSON jump in any time too.

Speaker 33042.14s - 3084.44s

I think it's because he has no information or maybe he just has like rumors. Oh, didn't you hear they went to Switzerland GPE or something like that? And he's like, why would they go to Switzerland GPE? Maybe it's because she's going insane that like really goes well with my portrayal of her father as a man going insane earlier in the novel. She inherited that insanity.The way that I tell it, we don't know, is that Harold Vanner PERSON ran out of information and had to create a speculative close to his story. I just can't imagine...

Speaker 03084.44s - 3084.94s

Oh, go ahead.

Speaker 33085.62s - 3101.28s

Well, I was going to say, I can't imagine, I can't imagine him getting a letter from her while they're away from the U.S. Anyway, what were you going to say, Heidi PERSON?

Speaker 03101.52s - 3125.82s

Well, Ida WORK_OF_ART says that he does that for a better story, and she hates him for it. She's like, I can't believe he did that. He took a woman and ground her into the dust, right? Like all men do. And because it's just a better story, it's more kind of gratuitous to crush her as an intelligent woman.

Speaker 33126.46s - 3129.6s

Or he sees her husband as crushing her, right?

Speaker 03129.78s - 3139.68s

He imagines her as this brilliant appreciator of artistic things shackled to this man

Speaker 43139.68s - 3160.14s

who just loves money and doesn't really understand the things that she's passionate about and loves. And so he takes her off and treats her to death. And that the story is, the novel is a story about how Harold Vanner PERSON perceives her husband. Right.

Speaker 03160.7s - 3164.1s

Wishes he could, you know, whisk her away and...

Speaker 43164.1s - 3166.38s

David PERSON, what are your thoughts on their own manner?

Speaker 03167.38s - 3170.6s

And I know you have a million thoughts and have been saving them.

Speaker 43171.02s - 3171.3s

Speak.

Speaker 53172.22s - 3178.44s

I absolutely believe very strongly that she is his source.

Speaker 03178.68s - 3179.26s

I did too.

Speaker 53179.8s - 3180.8s

Very strongly.

Speaker 03181.02s - 3183.94s

I don't think, I honestly don't think the book is even leaving it up for a question.

Speaker 53184.58s - 3185.08s

Really? Because there's too much in the book is even leaving it up for a question. Really?

Speaker 03185.84s - 3190.18s

Because there's too much in the novel that he could have only got from her,

Speaker 23190.18s - 3192.56s

and she basically says as much in this section.

Speaker 03193.44s - 3196.48s

She talks about stories, like all those stories about how she was a performer,

Speaker 53197.04s - 3199.16s

how they went to Switzerland GPE when she was a child.

Speaker 23199.3s - 3201.22s

Like there's a whole section on that in part four here,

Speaker 03201.86s - 3203.8s

and how they would make her say things backwards and all that.

Speaker 53203.88s - 3208.92s

The details of that are basically word for word what she gives here in this section.

Speaker 03208.92s - 3214.4s

And it's clear that they're communicating via letter, including a tablo, which is a very interesting word.

Speaker 23214.8s - 3219.2s

He sent her a letter with gossip and a tablo, which is an interesting word.

Speaker 53220.8s - 3238.18s

So I don't think there's, there are a, there are people who have written paper, like what amount to papers essentially, saying that, that she wrote, the theory is that she wrote book, the she wrote the Bond PERSON's novel. Yeah.

Speaker 13238.32s - 3241.28s

I don't think that, that's, that's, that's, at best, that's a theory.

Speaker 53241.86s - 3257.1s

Right. But I do think, I do think that is a theory that is in keeping with what Diaz PERSON is going for in this book, which we'll talk about here in a minute. But I don't think that, I think that it's very clear that they're communicating during the writing of the book based on the timelines. Yeah.

Speaker 43257.4s - 3269.8s

Yeah. And I don't think that when I say, I don't think that she's his source. I don't mean I think that they never talked about her life. But that the intimate details are invented. Like what?

Speaker 53271.56s - 3276.14s

Oh, that's possible. Maybe he made stuff up, but the point is she is a source on the book

Speaker 43276.14s - 3281.94s

and they have a degree of relationship, like the casual way in which she mentions the

Speaker 53281.94s - 3287.6s

herald dinner has written to her with gossip from all the people that they knew that they share friends that she's like I should write him back with all the crackpots

Speaker 43287.6s - 3295.14s

that are here they have a there is a common ground between them and there is a particularity go

Speaker 53295.14s - 3300.44s

ahead oh but do you think that she would the book the bonds hasn't come out yet though right so

Speaker 43300.44s - 3305.94s

do you think that she would knowingly give him material for a book? Or is simply the source of

Speaker 33305.94s - 3318.08s

the information that he puts in the book? Yeah, that's my question. Is she a voluntary? Is she like, Hey, Harold PERSON, come over here. I've got, I'm going to give you information. Yeah.

Speaker 43318.72s - 3324.24s

Are you willing to kind of get this out there? And the other way she could be a source would be

Speaker 33324.24s - 3339.36s

he goes to her dinner parties. He goes to her music salons and he listens and takes notes. Right. Do you think it's more the former than the latter, David PERSON? Just say it.

Speaker 03339.66s - 3340.42s

Just say what you think.

Speaker 33341.86s - 3345.28s

Well, I mean, he comes to her and says,

Speaker 43345.38s - 3351.82s

I'm thinking about writing a novel about your life. She says, great, or I hate you? I think she knows this book.

Speaker 53353.7s - 3355.56s

You think she knows this book.

Speaker 03355.8s - 3360.28s

Right. Does she come up with the ending and all of that?

Speaker 53360.28s - 3506.82s

I think that I think that Diaz PERSON is purposefully leaving that mysterious, whether she orchestrates the ending, but the implication is that she is participatory in the creation of the narrative.So then it leaves the suggestion, the notion that there is even the suggestion of that complicates the threads. Right now. And leaves, raises the question, which if it raises the the question it reinterprets how you thinkabout the stories and if you dig into the part one with that with it in mind if you read part one again under the assumption like just do it for an exercise because you have all the time in the world under the assumption that she has been participating in it, it opens up a lot of things and it makes you think about how he is shaping some of these characters. I think that there's, I mean, there's a lot of consistencies with points of view and perspective, and let alone details. So I can't prove that she orchestrated the ending, but I don't think that ultimately matters as muchas to know that she was participatory in the narrative is ultimately what I think Diaz PERSON wants us to accept. Because I think it's better if you don't know. Each of the sections have a series of mysteries that we don't get full closure on. And I think by not giving them full closure,it leaves it to the reader to be interpreting and to be responding to their own gut responses and all that kind of stuff. And I think Diaz PERSON's active, I think he is writing a novel that is trying to make us aware of our own interpretive tendenciesor the things that we're identifying. I think he's creating a puzzle where the reader is the detective as much as going after a mystery as much as anything, as much as any other character. That's why there's not athere's not a true denouement. There's no true unraveling. There's no gathering around the room and the detective says this is the classic Agatha Christie PERSON thing where this is the solution, right? The solution is still up to us. We've been given all these clues from all these different perspectives of people who are telling, they're tellingoutright lies. They're telling things they believe to be true, but are probably lies, because they're not self-aware enough to know the truth about themselves. And then sometimes they're telling things that are actively true. And so it's up to us as readers to engage in the active interpretation.

Speaker 33508.18s - 3514.34s

So, I'm just wondering how far you want to push this. Oh, a long way. I'm willing to go a long way.

Speaker 03514.8s - 3516.3s

Okay, let's try this on.

Speaker 33516.3s - 3518.02s

But also, I want how to be able to respond to the question.

Speaker 03518.2s - 3518.84s

It's okay.

Speaker 33519.48s - 3519.76s

Go ahead.

Speaker 03519.84s - 3520s

Go ahead.

Speaker 33520.08s - 3521.12s

We can we do this exercise?

Speaker 03521.54s - 3528.9s

I was just saying I think it's cool that if Harold Vanner is in some way speaking for Mildred Bevel PERSON,

Speaker 33529.36s - 3534.76s

then we have a really interesting symmetry with Ida and Andrew Bevel PERSON.

Speaker 03534.88s - 3536.36s

Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 53536.82s - 3537.88s

And I...

Speaker 03537.88s - 3539.68s

Compelling that anything I've heard so far, actually.

Speaker 43540.64s - 3541.22s

Yeah. All right.

Speaker 03541.58s - 3543.84s

And that would be your argument, wouldn't it, David PERSON?

Speaker 43543.98s - 3546s

It's like the structure of the book

Speaker 03546s - 3552.34s

is one of the strongest arguments that you guys sounds so much like mildred no man mildred

Speaker 33552.34s - 3558.56s

is like oh hold on let me finish the structure of the book is with the strongest reason why

Speaker 03558.56s - 3563.84s

mildred would have been the primary source maybe even the driving source behind the novel

Speaker 33563.84s - 3565.2s

which is part one.

Speaker 03567.48s - 3567.64s

Yeah.

Speaker 43567.78s - 3569.12s

Yeah.

Speaker 03569.52s - 3572.58s

But I mean, I think she said, I think she admits, I think there's also just problem.

Speaker 43573.62s - 3575.84s

Like, I think she reveals things that only she could know.

Speaker 03576.62s - 3578.86s

So how would, Van der PERSON would have had to have gotten them from her.

Speaker 23579.54s - 3581.5s

I mean, my question would be, but yeah.

Speaker 03582.5s - 3587.5s

Why could Banner not have interviewed Mildred PERSON's mother and gotten that information?

Speaker 23587.92s - 3589.58s

That seems completely plausible.

Speaker 43589.88s - 3591.92s

She's still alive long after Mildred PERSON was.

Speaker 33592.42s - 3599.38s

She seems the kind of person that's very eager to talk and celebrate, you know, like her past glories or whatever.

Speaker 23599.38s - 3603.74s

That's like a real thing or you're asking that to like push David PERSON on the...

Speaker 33603.74s - 3604.78s

Both, both.

Speaker 23604.9s - 3607.52s

I mean, I think it's a real thing that that could have happened.

Speaker 33609s - 3609.88s

I agree with...

Speaker 53609.88s - 3613.84s

Like, you're trying to push it to the, like, how far are you willing to go with this?

Speaker 33616.84s - 3622.88s

Sort of. I think there's other plausible explanations about how Harold Banner PERSON wrote the book

Speaker 53622.88s - 3625.44s

that are completely plausible. The strongest argument, which I agree with, is Banner PERSON wrote the book that are completely plausible.

Speaker 33627.84s - 3628.24s

The strongest argument, which I agree with,

Speaker 03630.24s - 3632.12s

is the structure of the book itself lends credence to the idea

Speaker 33632.12s - 3633.92s

that Mildred PERSON was a dry,

Speaker 03633.98s - 3636.18s

it was like the hand inside

Speaker 33636.18s - 3638s

the glove of Harold

Speaker 03638s - 3639.7s

Vanner, like

Speaker 33639.7s - 3643.02s

writing this novel. That's completely plausible to me.

Speaker 03643.38s - 3651.82s

And that both of them are far above Andrew and Ida WORK_OF_ART. And I think that's really important. But go ahead.

Speaker 33651.82s - 3653.2s

In terms of intellect?

Speaker 03653.66s - 3654.06s

Yes.

Speaker 33654.82s - 3657.28s

Harold Vanner PERSON is, why do you think so about Harold Vanner?

Speaker 03658.44s - 3662.52s

Because his book is so much better than anything Ida WORK_OF_ART wrote. Right.

Speaker 43663.4s - 3666.42s

And because Mildred PERSON cares to write to him.

Speaker 03667.14s - 3672.54s

And his insight into that is so much more astute.

Speaker 43673.06s - 3680.58s

Now, once you get to the end, versus Andrew and Ida WORK_OF_ART, who both lack self-awareness

Speaker 03680.58s - 3684.8s

and are just coming in guns blazing swinging punches. Yeah.

Speaker 53685.34s - 3687.32s

But, okay, Tim PERSON, go ahead. Go ahead.

Speaker 13687.62s - 3689.84s

Do you want to challenge me to how far I'm willing to push it?

Speaker 03690.06s - 3691.78s

I said far, but I don't know what you're about to ask me.

Speaker 13692.38s - 3695.06s

Well, I want to do she cause the dust bowl? I'd probably not.

Speaker 33697.38s - 3723.34s

I think that when Sean said, oh my gosh, it was Mildred PERSON. She was the one who caused the crash. I think someone, I've been hearing you, David PERSON, say, was it? Was it really? Or is that just your prejudice? That's just the way that you read this novel because you have like deep inborn prejudices, Sean PERSON.

Speaker 53724.76s - 3750.82s

Okay, no, I wouldn't say that second part is true, but I do think, I don't, I'm not saying that it's wrong to make that, to say that she, I'm not saying that she's lying. Yeah. I am saying that the book suggests continually that people don't tell the truth about themselves. And so you should, you should question her claim. You should at least examine her claim.That's what I would say.

Speaker 43750.82s - 3767.54s

You know, it occurs to me now even, and this is to take up your argument, David PERSON, for a moment. It would, one justification for Mildred PERSON being complicit in the novel that would make sense to me. What was an interesting word for this book?

Speaker 53768.22s - 3768.46s

Well, yeah.

Speaker 43768.56s - 3785.9s

And explain why she still feels this sense of guilt and need to confess at the end of part four. If she knows that this book is in the works and has had a hand in it, perhaps it's because maybe it was born originally out of an attempt to get revenge.

Speaker 03787.22s - 3791.74s

Right. Right. Heidi PERSON just done he did herself. Yeah, Heidi mentioned before that. Yeah.

Speaker 23792.04s - 3798.86s

I'm just saying right on. The bitterness that she feels towards her husband who took her idea

Speaker 43798.86s - 3807.4s

and exploited it and then took credit for it. This is her sort of saying, fine, you take the credit for it.

Speaker 03807.4s - 3815.08s

And I'm going to have my friend write a novel that saddles you with the credit for it forever and, you know, enjoy.

Speaker 23815.72s - 3819s

And it's all about the idea of giving voice to the voiceless.

Speaker 03819.32s - 3827.58s

But in the end, she obfuscates her own voice, but maybe she's not obfuscating her voice by allowing Vanner PERSON to offer part of her POV.

Speaker 23827.98s - 3829.48s

Yeah, she disguises her voice.

Speaker 03829.48s - 3835.36s

Because she overlays her own personality onto the portrayal of Benjamin Rask PERSON in the novel.

Speaker 23835.98s - 3836.28s

Yeah.

Speaker 03836.7s - 3840.82s

He is the one with that kind of, that kind of genius.

Speaker 43840.82s - 3842.1s

The sense of pattern and all that, yes.

Speaker 23842.24s - 3843.74s

The beauty of the movement in the market.

Speaker 43843.88s - 3844.22s

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 23844.26s - 3844.62s

Yes.

Speaker 03845.14s - 3848.28s

And so then the same way that he

Speaker 23848.28s - 3850.02s

pygmalions her

Speaker 03850.02s - 3851.4s

in his stupid novel,

Speaker 23852.76s - 3854.02s

she or memoir,

Speaker 43854.32s - 3854.64s

fake memoir.

Speaker 23854.64s - 3856.5s

Herna Diaz PERSON, his initials are HD.

Speaker 43856.5s - 3859.26s

She pigmalions him in hers.

Speaker 53860.94s - 3861.44s

Yeah.

Speaker 43861.74s - 3863.76s

Turns him into her image.

Speaker 23866.18s - 3866.72s

Yep. Yeah. So in the her image. Yep.

Speaker 03867.06s - 3867.34s

Yeah.

Speaker 23867.44s - 3869.12s

So in the part where...

Speaker 03869.12s - 3870.16s

I think I'm getting there.

Speaker 43870.82s - 3872.36s

There's a...

Speaker 03872.36s - 3874.88s

On 386 PRODUCT, this is when she's writing...

Speaker 43874.88s - 3876.6s

She says,

Speaker 03876.72s - 3878.94s

still our queer collaboration continued.

Speaker 23879.38s - 3881.12s

I was obsessed with the process.

Speaker 03881.64s - 3883.14s

He was addicted to the results.

Speaker 23883.78s - 3888.46s

But it would be almost... It'd be dishonest to claim it was only an intellectual exercise for me.

Speaker 03888.8s - 3890.86s

I discovered a deep well of ambition within.

Speaker 43891.32s - 3893.28s

From it, I extracted a dark fuel.

Speaker 03893.42s - 3894.32s

So that's what I mentioned earlier.

Speaker 53894.94s - 3900.46s

She says, I turned my attention to an increasing flaw in the exchange,

Speaker 03901.02s - 3904s

a flaw that became more pronounced as our transactions and profit grew.

Speaker 53904.42s - 3904.84s

Traffic.

Speaker 03906.12s - 3910.14s

During rallies and plunges, the ticker always fell far behind. There could be a gap of up to 10 points between

Speaker 53910.14s - 3982.68s

selling price and the floor and the ticker quotation. I decided to make those delays mine. By trading an outsized amounts and inciting bursts of general frenzy, I started creating the lags. The ticker fell behind me, and for a few minutes, I owned the future. Andrew PERSON became a legend. Everyone thought he was a clairvoyant, a mystic. That's a pretty interesting word there that she uses. Truth is all this was made possible by obsolete and overwhelmed machinery. And then she goes, she goes into that. And there is a sense in which she is describing those patterns, but she's also describing the idea ofcreating reality, of creating story, of creating narrative, of creating the future. And that also plays into the notion of storytelling in POV and agency and voice and all that. The one who cancreate the future is the one who has the true agency, who has the true voice. And that becomes in it, she calls that something that she's ambitious towards. And it fuels that drive towards being able to literally create the future. And I think that plays into what we're talking about here as well. But Heidi PERSON, go ahead.I think you were supposed to say something.

Speaker 03982.68s - 4003.9s

What I don't know and what makes her story humanized and, I don't know, pathetic in like the sense of pathos and in the more conventional sense, I guess. What I don't know is if he knows her complicity in the novel.

Speaker 24005.08s - 4008.46s

Banner? Yeah. No. Or her husband. Beville PERSON. Yeah. I guess. What I don't know is if he knows her complicity in the novel. But either way, yeah, no, no. Or her husband.

Speaker 04008.74s - 4037.22s

Beville PERSON. Yeah. Because he does manage to silence the novel. So if it is a revenge play, she did it just to hurt him personally, not to vindicate herself in the public square. Right. And, I mean, heends up silencing the novel and erasing it because he cares about results, right? She cares about the patterns. And there's, I mean,

Speaker 54037.66s - 4040.14s

and that means that once again, he is silencing her.

Speaker 04041.08s - 4042.48s

Yeah. Exactly.

Speaker 54042.92s - 4044.78s

And then he writes, yeah.

Speaker 04045.04s - 4046.2s

Yeah. And then he tries to, yeah Yeah, and then he tries to re-

Speaker 54046.2s - 4048.86s

yeah. He tries to reshape the future

Speaker 04048.86s - 4054.16s

in his own way. But what happens? He never completes it. He doesn't finish it. He doesn't have any voice.

Speaker 14054.46s - 4062.38s

He doesn't have the capacity to do that. And he dies before anything can happen. And then Ida WORK_OF_ART thinks, anyway, Ida WORK_OF_ART gets involved in that complicates things.

Speaker 44063.04s - 4074.02s

Sean, go ahead. Tim PERSON had something to say, I think. It would also mean, if that were the case, that she involves her writer friend knowing that her husband is going to destroy his life.

Speaker 04074.12s - 4074.5s

Exactly.

Speaker 54077.1s - 4085.76s

Yeah, to me, it's kind of like that the thing that she does, the way she talks about the ring that he gets her is like, she can be brutal when she wants to,

Speaker 04085.8s - 4087.1s

when she thinks that it's like,

Speaker 44087.64s - 4087.96s

you know,

Speaker 54089.08s - 4099.92s

something's beneath her. In a way, I do think she kind of uses, uh, Vanner PERSON. Um,I, I think that's what we're talking about. She's a very complicated figure. She's,

Speaker 24100.1s - 4110.1s

she's not one note in any way. She's both a genius and also can be a little bit, uh, shall we say, acetic. Tim PERSON, what were you going to say? Oh, I didn't have anything.

Speaker 34110.28s - 4121.24s

I mean, I just think that you can, I think the book kind of coming back on itself, just as like the stock market gets played back on itself.

Speaker 04121.42s - 4125.52s

I think it's a really cool theory. I think it's a really, it's a really cool theory.

Speaker 34127s - 4140.94s

I just, I think that like you can read it either way. I'm, part of me wants to say like, yeah, the book is going back on herself and she drove the novel. I don't know. I think it's really inconclusive.

Speaker 04141.24s - 4148.14s

It's a great mental. That's what I like about the book. You can read it very straightforward too, but there's no way that's not on purpose.

Speaker 34148.68s - 4155.94s

Right. Yeah. So the ending of this book is fascinating to me. So I just want to read the last

Speaker 54155.94s - 4162.78s

few lines. So it's obviously at the end of part four. It's her, in theory, the final entries of

Speaker 34162.78s - 4167.26s

her journal. A bell in a bell jar won't ring.

Speaker 54168.48s - 4172.24s

The terrifying freedom of knowing that nothing from now on will become a memory.

Speaker 04173.66s - 4176.88s

It took me a while to realize the hum was only inside my head.

Speaker 54178.04s - 4214.28s

Is a waveless noise still a sound? Nurse PERSON just filed my nails, blowing away the dust as she went. Words peeling off from things in and out of sleep like a needle coming out from under a black cloth and then vanishing again unthreadedI mean some nice bit of writing there but also like thematically that series of almost like it's almost like a series of haikus or something.I mean, I know it's not structurally a haiku, but it feels like you're reading a series of haikus is fascinating to me. And the final line of the book being unthreaded,

Speaker 14214.9s - 4216.3s

the final word is,

Speaker 44216.3s - 4219.3s

is pretty interesting

Speaker 14219.3s - 4221.22s

and suggestive

Speaker 54221.22s - 4231.52s

and also like confusing a little bit. And I, you know, I imagine people have degrees of mileage for what we're talking about here. But if you're listening to this show,then you probably don't mind. But again, at Heidi PERSON's point,

Speaker 04231.58s - 4242.06s

you can read this. Like, this won the Pulitzer Prize WORK_OF_ART. And I've given it to a lot of people in the shop. And I guarantee you they're not really getting into it as deep as we are. And I don't mean that.I just mean they're not spending five hours talking about it.

Speaker 54242.06s - 4294.42s

It's a great story. It's a straight forward narrative. Yeah. That's right. With. It still is a straight forward narrative. Yeah. That's right. With a good twist at the end. But Tim PERSON, you have your microphone ready to go.What are you going to say? No, I got nothing. I got nothing. We need to go, but before we go, we're going to answer people's questions next week. I want to read, I just want to read a couple things that he said in an interview.Not Rask PERSON, D.S. That'd be pretty funny if there was like fake Andrew Bevel interviews out there in the world. So, Sean PERSON, I mean, or Tim PERSON, are you aand not, I mean, I didn't mention you, Heidi PERSON, because I think you've told me that you're not a fan of this person before, but I could be wrong. Are you guys, Borges PERSON, how do you say his name? Borges PERSON, Borges?Borges PERSON. Are you guys fans of his? Heidi PERSON, you said, no, and I think you said told me that.

Speaker 44295.88s - 4297.38s

I'd give a qualified yes.

Speaker 54298.42s - 4298.88s

Tim PERSON?

Speaker 34299.5s - 4301s

I'd give a qualified yes also.

Speaker 54301.24s - 4380.74s

Okay. So, someone asks him about Borges PERSON in an interview and how Borges uses these concept of nesting worlds in his book. And Diaz PERSON says this. And again, I do find it fascinating that in these interviews, it's HD. And I can't help but think Hilda Z. H.V. HD PERSON. He says, I wouldn't be the person I am without Borges PERSON. One of the many things he taught meis precisely what you point out. How literature can create its own referential context by surrounding itself with more literature. I find framing games endlessly fascinating because they make us think about meaning,representation, and truth. In the case of trust, I was particularly interested in the distinction between fact and fiction, the rhetorical boundaries between them and how they are. To a large extent, the effects of specific contracts we enter into each time we read a text. Hopefully, each one of the sections in the bookwill make the reader reflect on the terms and conditions they tacitly accepted for the previous one, and by extension, the unspoken agreements and conventions inherent to every reading experience. And I think about this all the time when I'm reading, this concept of like we are basically entering into a contract and the book is suggesting its own terms and conditions. And we talk about,I think it's part of what we're talking about when we say we need to let a book be its own thing.

Speaker 04380.9s - 4384.66s

Because part of what we're doing early on is we're trying to figure out what are the terms

Speaker 24384.66s - 4390.42s

and conditions of this book. And what I like about what Diaz PERSON is doing here is that he's,

Speaker 04390.54s - 4397.08s

he is kind of in a way being self-aware about that relationship. And he is trying, he's helping us

Speaker 54397.08s - 4450.52s

to be self-aware about it. And he's writing a book under the pretense that, yeah, there is a contract that we're entering into, that you're entering into, that I'm asking you to enter into, and that's making, we're making demands of one another. And as a book that is self-aware about that, I find it a really interesting,I don't, I'll say a really interesting exercise or experiment, even though I find that to be like, it's more than, it's more than an exercise. It's like a successful novel.Yeah. And he says, he says, I think of the, I think of narrative structure in geological terms and wanted the layers of distinct narrative strata to explain and contradict one another.I want the narratives to get entangled and disentangled in almost equal measure as we move from one section to the next. And part of the fun is to follow those threads. And I think when you read that last word, untethered, that seems to be reflecting on what he's saying.

Speaker 04450.88s - 4451.4s

Unthreaded.

Speaker 54451.4s - 4455.06s

I mean, threaded. Yeah, unthreaded. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, thanks. No. Correct me when I'm wrong.

Speaker 04456.4s - 4458.32s

Only because the word itself matters.

Speaker 54458.5s - 4460.24s

Yeah, absolutely. I don't care if you got it right or wrong.

Speaker 44460.24s - 4462.86s

Yeah, absolutely. And it resonated with how much ago you just read. Yeah.

Speaker 54463.08s - 4467.2s

Yeah. So anyway, I just wanted to share that. I thought people might be interested in.

Speaker 44467.38s - 4473.14s

He's got lots of pretty interesting interviews out there. He hasn't said, he doesn't say, mercifully, he doesn't answer the questions.

Speaker 04473.28s - 4474.82s

He doesn't demystify things.

Speaker 44475.02s - 4478.32s

But he does offer some of what he's thinking about when working on.

Speaker 24478.4s - 4480.6s

And that's more what I want.

Speaker 04480.76s - 4481.26s

Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 54481.96s - 4488.6s

What I want their, what I want authors to do when they're talking about their work. We will answer your questions next week. Sean PERSON, final thoughts.

Speaker 44490.28s - 4523.32s

What a blast. I love this novel. I have been looking forward to it for months and months since you all read it and, you know, we're gushing about how enjoyableit was. And I think it is brilliant. Without sounding like too much of a modernist, I really do love art that is intentionally, intelligently ambiguous, and not just ambiguous for the sake of ambiguity,but to spark some sort of deeper examination, and this novel does that so well. It was a blast to read.

Speaker 54524.5s - 4526.42s

We're not just reading paint splattered on the wall.

Speaker 44526.86s - 4527.06s

Right.

Speaker 54528.88s - 4535.2s

We may be reading early Picasso, but we're not, you know. Heidi PERSON, final thoughts from you?

Speaker 04536.78s - 4540.04s

Actually, Picasso's blue period is a little appropriate.

Speaker 54540.24s - 4541.14s

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 04542.28s - 4545.3s

Okay. So, write an essay on it, Heidi PERSON.

Speaker 54545.7s - 4550.54s

One of the things that I love about this novel is that it is that

Speaker 04550.54s - 4552.94s

meta fiction with all those things that David PERSON just said.

Speaker 54553.24s - 4555.46s

But it's also just a really good story.

Speaker 04556.18s - 4564.76s

And I think that that's why I love it, even though I don't always love meta fiction.

Speaker 14565.76s - 4579s

That makes sense. Like I said this on the first episode. I don't like books that are in your face clever about being books. I find that annoying and off-putting. But I think this book is more than that.

Speaker 04579.48s - 4628.34s

I think this book does that and it's integral to the novel, but it is the story itself and the relationship between the bevels and what happened in the crash. And all of those like human and plot elements, like Tim PERSON, you asked, how far are you going to push it? For me, the story happens the way that it's presented in the story, and I think the book falls apart if it doesn't. And that, the fact that there is this anchor, that that's the anchor of the novel,is what makes all the metanarrative work for me. And...

Speaker 54628.34s - 4630.76s

There's like human stakes, the core of it all.

Speaker 04630.76s - 4640.6s

Yes. Like, I don't read fiction to be, to like, like, have some kind of, like, clever thoughts about fiction, you know?

Speaker 24641.5s - 4641.7s

Yeah.

Speaker 04641.84s - 4645.14s

I read because I care about the characters and what happens in the story.

Speaker 24646.12s - 4649.5s

And I think this is just like a ripping good novel.

Speaker 04649.88s - 4718.4s

But based on that, I think it's great. And that's the thing that holds my attention. But I like the conversation that's created around it. Like the what really happened and how do we know it really happened? And I like that because that is those, those to me remain human stakes. Like I'm interested in these characters because I have to work to understand them because they're hidden behind these layers of narrative.And so I think it's really interesting, even my own perceptions, even the fact that I don't like one of the women narrators and I do like the other one that's interesting to me, right? Why do I respond like that? This says a lot of, says a lot about me just as much as it says about the fiction and the narrative. And so I think that, like, why do I think that Andrew is villainous in one section and pathetic and another? And it's the same person.That's interesting, right? And I just find that kind of thing fun, especially because, since they're fictional.

Speaker 54718.52s - 4724.32s

Tim thinks I'm pathetic and Sean PERSON thinks I'm villainous. And so each person can have their own perspective on a person. And that's what makes me.

Speaker 04727.24s - 4750.6s

So anyway, I, and so there's nobody else I'd rather debate and disagree with about a novel than you guys. Because I just think it's so fun to hear how people interpret the story. And I don't know. It's just been great. I love it. I loved this conversation and I love this novel.And I'll definitely read it again. Like I said, I wasn't sure how it would hold up on a second time. It's better.

Speaker 44750.88s - 4753.82s

It's probably better on a third time again. Yeah, I want to read it again.

Speaker 04754.08s - 4754.34s

Yeah.

Speaker 44754.92s - 4756.26s

Tim PERSON, what are your final thoughts?

Speaker 34756.94s - 4764.86s

This is one of those rare books that, to me, is both academically highbrow and also a page turner at the same time.

Speaker 44764.94s - 4766.56s

There just are not many of those.

Speaker 34767.02s - 4767.22s

No.

Speaker 44767.7s - 4774.56s

It's like Radiohead's OK computer winning both album of the year by popular vote and critics' choice.

Speaker 34774.98s - 4776.4s

I don't know how often that's happened.

Speaker 24776.68s - 4778.2s

Man, that's such a great comparison.

Speaker 34778.44s - 4779.52s

That was a good year in music.

Speaker 24780.46s - 4780.84s

Good year.

Speaker 34780.94s - 4782.24s

Would you say that was a good ear in music?

Speaker 24782.56s - 4783.08s

Good year.

Speaker 34783.92s - 4784.82s

It was a good year in music.

Speaker 04785.04s - 4785.74s

Good year. Big radio head guy. Who doesn't have a good ear in music? Good year. It was a good year in music. Good year.

Speaker 34786.36s - 4786.86s

Good year.

Speaker 04787s - 4787.78s

Big radio head guys.

Speaker 34787.78s - 4788.88s

Yeah, who doesn't have a good ear.

Speaker 04788.96s - 4789.46s

Not just kidding.

Speaker 34791.94s - 4794.3s

I would have thrown Milder PERSON at a radio head concert.

Speaker 24794.9s - 4796.88s

She'd probably love it.

Speaker 04797.62s - 4798.6s

Yeah, she probably would have.

Speaker 54799.24s - 4800.86s

What's your favorite radio head album, Tim PERSON?

Speaker 34801.96s - 4803.98s

Either in rainbows or okay computer.

Speaker 04805.08s - 4806.12s

Okay. That's a good answer. That's a good answer.

Speaker 34806.42s - 4807.06s

That's a good answer.

Speaker 44808.12s - 4809.1s

We should close out.

Speaker 34809.24s - 4810.5s

Logan PERSON should drop in a little.

Speaker 44811.1s - 4811.5s

Yeah.

Speaker 54811.74s - 4815.28s

Like just enough to where we're not dealing with copyright issues.

Speaker 34815.48s - 4816.18s

Yep, exactly.

Speaker 54817.66s - 4828.88s

Yeah, I think, to the point to your, to y'all's points, to the points that you are all making, this is a book that you can just read it and it's a great time. But one of the reasons I really wanted to do it on

Speaker 44828.88s - 4833.46s

the show is because once you do start talking about it, the conversation flies, right?

Speaker 34834.06s - 4840.82s

It's just a great book to talk about and it rewards, like it actively seems to pursue

Speaker 44840.82s - 4844.24s

conversation, if that makes sense. If you don't ever want to do that, you can still read it. You can

Speaker 34844.24s - 4845.32s

read it for yourself. It's great.

Speaker 54846.12s - 4848.48s

But it's once you do it.

Speaker 44848.68s - 4851.46s

Yeah, and once you do, there's so many directions you can go.

Speaker 24851.92s - 4862.94s

There's so many things we haven't talked about. But we do have the Q&A episode next week, so don't forget to post your questions. If you have any on the thread on, Postreads HQ over on the chat on Substack ORG.

Speaker 54863.68s - 4878.68s

And I'll set out an announcement with that thread so people can get that. Any final, anything else we need to say? We've talked about all the different shows that we're all doing. We're getting ready for the retreat coming up. I think we've covered everything, right?

Speaker 04880.12s - 4885.14s

We're going to be announcing this England GPE 2025 trip here soon as we get that's, you know,

Speaker 44885.76s - 4887.22s

that things squared away with the venue.

Speaker 54887.34s - 4901.98s

I mean, there's like a lot of stuff going on. I guess that's it. I guess it's all, guys. I mean, I think we kind of, we wades youth of all our time. So we'll see.I have no idea if Logan PERSON's dropping in some radio head right now, but if he is, enjoy it.

Speaker 24902.28s - 4904.42s

And for Sean Johnson for two Macintosh

Speaker 34904.42s - s

and for Heidi White PERSON. I'mid curtin until next time happy reading Thanks.