#265 - Welcome to the Hyunam-Dong Bookshop by Hwang Bo-reum

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You're listening to Oh! Potlac. Hotla! And welcome to Books and Boba of Book Club and podcast featuring books by Asian and Asian American NORP authors.

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My name is Marvin Yue PERSON.

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And I'm Rirayu PERSON.

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And on this episode, we are discussing our March 2024 book club pick. Welcome to the Huenam Dong Bookshop by Huangbo room, translated by Shana Tan PERSON. As always, Books and Boba ORG is supported in part by our listeners over at patreon.com slash BooksMboba, where our Patreon ORG supporters gain access to our members-only Discord server, monthly bonus podcast, as well as the opportunity to help us choose future book club picks.So if you haven't checked it out yet, head on over and help support the Books and Boba ORG podcast. But yeah, let's just get right into it. As always, in our discussion episodes, we will be covering our book club pick in its entirety, which means that we'll be discussing all plot points and twists. So if you haven't finished the book yet and don't want to be spoiled on future plot developments, now's your chance to hit pause and then come back after you finish the book.But with that, let's get started. Riebara PERSON, why don't you kick us off with our discussion of welcome to the Huenam Dong

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Bookshop with the book jacket description. Youngju PERSON is burnt out. With her high-flying career demanding marriage and busy life in Seoul GPE, she knows she should feel successful, but all she feels is drained. Yet an abandoned dream nags at her, and in a leap of faith, she leaves her old life behind. Quitting her job and divorcing her husband, Yang Zhuge PERSON moves to a small residential neighborhood outside the city where she opens the Huanam Dong Bookshop. For the first few months, all Yang Zhuge does is cry, deterring visitors. But the long hours in the shop give her time tomull over what makes a good bookseller and store. And as she starts to read hungrily, host author events, and develop her own bookselling philosophy, she begins to ease into her new setting. Surrounded by friends, writers, and the books that connect them all, she finds her new story as the Huanam Dong Bookshop ORG transforms into an inviting space for lost souls to rest, heal, and remember that it's never

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too late to scrap the plot and start again. Yeah. So I guess to start off, what are your general

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thoughts on this book? So there's a quote in the book that kind of sums up my feelings. It's, as with everything in life, reading is about the right timing. And I genuinely feel like I read this book at the right time because as someone in my early 30s now, I just feel like I'm at a crossroads in life. And a lot of the questions that the characters pose on themselves, I pose on myself daily.So a lot of this book goes into like what constitutes success in life. And the pressures of like society to like to kind of like be a part of the rat race and compete with your peers and get like the traditional job. Like you know how like boomers they say oh go to a good college and then after going to a good college it should be like smooth sailing just do just work hard and get get the good grades uh get the good internships and then you will make it to a good company

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yeah because that's how the world worked for them when economies were booming and jobs were plentiful. So, like, I mean, as millennials, we constantly hear, as millennials growing up, we constantly hear that, oh, the reason we're not as successful as our parents is because we don't work hard enough.Like, totally discounting the fact that, like, the world has changed. And, like, everyone's the idea of like social mobility has also changed. Right. Yeah.

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And also like as someone who like as someone who is like peak millennial as in like I was born in 1990, we there's it's always been a problem. And, like, because the population of us is, like, so big because we're like, we're, like, the largest group in, in our generation.

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I mean, we're the children baby boomers, which before was the large group. So it's kind of like, expounded.

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Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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So, so, like, the competition has been always fierce. So I remember,

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like, when I was applying to college, like, it was like the fiercest race. Like, the application numbers reached record, reached, like, a record high. And then once people got out of college, it was like people were applying to the same jobs because a lot of them, you know, went. A lot of them studied the same major and were aiming for the same position. So it's like, okay, there's like the competition is fierce there. And now as millennials who have their own money, it's like we're competing for houses.So the rat race never freaking ends. And so the book dives into a lot of like burnout culture. And again, like what constitutes that as success, what is happiness?And also like the main character, Yongchushi PERSON gives up her old life to start a bookshop. And this is also a thing that I can relate to as someone who kind of gave up my old life, like, three times. And I'm like, yeah, I know how it feels to to start over. And I feel like right now I'm at the stage at at the stage of starting over again and scrapping my old life. So definitely related to the book a lot. What about you, Marvin PERSON? Yeah, I mean, I went in expecting a cozy read.

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And I'm not sure if you can qualify this as like a cozy because it's not like, you know, the vibes are cool. But it's not like all good vibes, right? Because there's a lot of, like you mentioned, a lot of like that. I think we classified it as millennial enwee in this book, which is like not knowing your place in this world, doing all the right things, but still not feeling satisfied, and then how to deal with that.And, you know, it ends on a positive note. And, you know, I do like the fact that the book explores, like, re-framing your idea of what success means and what living a satisfied life means. And I think that's really, like, you know, those messages really resonated with me as well as someone who has restarted, you know, his life a couple times as well, like trying new things. And the one thing that I definitely was not expecting from this book was that it was kindof like a pseudo case study on running a small business, a small bookstore because it goes into the nitty gritty of like, here is what a bookstore needs to do to survive and or to, to generate money to operate. Here is how author talks work. Here is how, you know, inventory works. Here is how, you know, like the only thing that was missing is like charts of its financials for it to be like a, just a case study we study in business school. And I actually really enjoyed reading that part because for better worse, I was like,hmm, maybe we can. Maybe we can do this at some point, like open a bookstore.

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I think that's something that a lot of... As someone who has worked at a bookstore, I already know I am not the right type of person to open up a bookstore. Like there's a scene in the book where they get a bunch of independent bookstore owners and the audience is made up of people who are like, I want to open up my own bookstore. And the bookshop owners are like, okay, well, don't expect to make any money. You might lose money. And your bookshop might not be open like a year from now. And that is like so true in America GPE as well.And it's just like a reflection of just like our capitalist society of just like in order to make money, we have to work like a great number of hours. And therefore there's not a lot of time to dedicate ourselves to our hobbies. And a lot of people like haven't read a book since, like, middle school or high school. So it's really intimidating to get back into reading.

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So, like, opening up a bookshop is just, like, you have to think about those people because those are your customers.

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So, like, the way they, like, broke it down. And the way they were also like encouraging saying hey if this is your dream like go ahead and do it. You know like just you know keep yourmonetary expectations low and you know there's nothing wrong about keeping a bookstore open for a short time because that time is not wasted.And I thought that was like a really good message. Yeah.

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And there's something to be said about bookstore as like a community hub. And I think that's kind of the tragedy of the fact that like independent bookstores are so rare these days because I mean a town with a books like because I feel like a lot of our communities need a place like the HUNM Dong ORG bookstore to like tie it together, right? Like an event space, a place where people can gather and learn, especially in this age of like book bands. Like, I think independent bookstores are more important than ever. And, you know, what she said reminded me of like a line at the end of the book where Yung Jiu PERSON is explaining why she doesn't stock like bestseller lists, right? And there's this line in that chapterthat really stood out with me, which is like, bestsellers are the result of a society that doesn't read. Yeah, I have

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a quote here when she says, when she talks about like getting rid of the bestsellers from her bookshop, bestsellers had always been a point of contention for her.Looking at the titles that rose through the ranks of the top sellers, she was often frustrated. Not because the books themselves had any issues. Once the book made the bestsellers list, it would continue to stay there for a long time. Gradually, she became convinced that bestsellers were the reason the publishing industry had lost its diversity.And it is so true here in America GPE, if you look at the bestsellers list. A lot of it is predominantly white, predominantly cis-hete NORP male. And, you know, publishing is, in order to work in publishing in America GPE, like, a lot of the times, you have to have a partner who has, like, a very high paying job because publishing does not pay. And therefore, a lot of the authors who have the time to hone their craft, like they're going to be the ones who make the bestsellers list,and therefore there's like a lack of diversity there. And as someone who, you know, also kind of has the same feelings about bestsellers, I was like, wow, this is a great idea, but also a terrible one because best sellers are like 20% of your sales at if you run a bookstore. So I'm like, you're losing so much money. But I just love how like,'s like this is my personality. This is what I believe in.And therefore my bookstore is going to reflect that.

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Yeah. Obviously this is like a ideal almost utopian view of how a independent bookstore should be run. And I'm sure some bookstores do run this way. But they're very upfront saying that like it's not the best business model. It probably is a bad decision, but the fact that is like you need to do what sits right with you. And I think there's something to be said abouta lot of this book also goes into what it means to be a bookseller, what it means to recommend the right books for your customers. And I'm not saying that we're that resource for people for Asian NORP books because, you know, we don't really, we're kind of reading what we want to read. But there's something to be said about like going to someone and getting a recommendation that you normally wouldn't have read yourself, but something that was, you know, recommended to you with your situation in mind. And like you said, like, you know, the right book at the right time can change your world. And I think, I mean, so this book doesn't really have like an overarching plot.It's kind of like a slice of life of this bookstore, its workers and its customers. But everyone in the book does go through like their own personal transformation through interacting with books and the bookstore. And I think this novel does a really good job, illustrating why books are important.

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So this book would fit into the genre called Healing Fiction. That's actually a genre in Korean NORP literature. And, you know, like reading this, we do relate to a lot of the character's struggles and a lot of the questions that they pose on themselves. But I think our listeners should, whatever you think about Americaand its work-life balance culture, it is so much worse in Korea. It is like five times worse because, you know, you're like you're working all the time. Like, overtime is, you know, it's a must. And after working hours, you're also hanging out with your boss and your co-workers for Quaysek ORG, which is pretty much like drinking uh after after work and it's mandatory too so it's it's like you're forced to socialize with your with your co-workers when you all you want to do is just go home and rest but you can't even do that. And it reminded me a lot of how, like, what is it?My cousin's husband, he came to America GPE with his family for, like, a short period because he was, like, studying. And I asked him, like, oh, like, what made you, like, oh, like what made you like suddenly want to do like suddenly want to do classes in America GPE? Because I don't really think it's going to be all that useful for you as like a lawyer. And he said, well, this way, you know, I get a break from my my job at like, my job in Korea GPE because I, like, never get to spend time with my kids. And at the time, his kids were, like, two and, like, four. And he's like, they're, like, growing up right before my eyes.And I'm never going to get that time back. So it's, it's something's something that like I can't have in Korean NORP society. And I was like that is so bleak. And the way that like my younger cousins too, like the stories that I have heard about them studying in high school, because like once you hit high school, it is so intense you are not only are you doing a normal school work you're going to after school programs and a lot ofthese cram schools even though there's a law in korea that says cram schools can't be open past like 10 p.m. I think. Like, you're still studying until like 1 a.m. And my cousins were saying like, yeah, like I go to cram school. We're there until midnight. I come home, do my like, and then study even more. So they're studying until 3 a.m. And then they go to school at 7 a.m. And they're like, it's nonstop. But this is the only way to keep up with my class because everything is graded on a curve. And I'm like, that is, that is insane. That is a lot of pressure for kids. And also like the fact that everyone is applying for the same colleges.

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So, you know how, like, in America GPE, like, we have so many options when it comes to higher education.

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But in Korea, everyone is aiming for the Sky League. So Seoul University, Korea University ORG, Yonsei University. And if you do not make it into one of the three schools, you're considered, like, maybe third tier for job interviews. So it's like there is just so much pressure. And that's why the genre of healing fiction has kind of risen in popularity in Korea GPE because people are questioning, like, why am I working so hard? And there's a line in the book where Yongju PERSON says, it's towards the end of the book.So Youngju PERSON says, I want to consider work as food, you know, like food that is simple and nourishes me. And it's not something that, you know, I should live for, you know? And in the beginning of the book, she talks about how, like, you know, like, she talks about her old self, saying she lived by the words of willpower and passion. And as someone who also kind of lived that way, it's so tiring. And you burn out so quick.

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Yeah, which is interesting because willpower, willpower and passion are also the things that are kind of keeping her bookstore alive. But for her, it's way more worth it, right? Like she mentions at the end of the book that a day will spend is a life well lived. And you can see the difference of like working to work and working on something that you personally love. And, you know, our brains are all are all kind of rotted from capitalism, right? The idea that like we have to be a part of the rat race in order to have any worth in society.And that's something that's beaten into us by schools, by media, by our parents. And I like the message that this book sends, which is like, it's okay to like do okay. It's okay to like not have the high paying job as long as you're doing something that you yourself are satisfied with. Because in the end, that's literally all that matters is that you enjoy the life that you yourself are satisfied with. Because in the end, that's literally all that matters, is that you enjoy the life that you live.And I feel like even here in the States GPE, we're taught to suffer now to enjoy our lives later. And we're seeing in real time that later for us, it's like never because retirement age is going up. Like people can't even retire these days. So like we're kind of expected to work till we die.And it's like a sneaky reversion of back to, like, the pre-industrial age of, like, we're just serfs for the noble class of rich people, right?

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Yeah. And, you know, like, you mentioned, like, oh, as long as you, like, enjoy what you do, it's, you know, it's satisfying and, uh, you know, you can be content. And what, what I really liked about this book is, you know, the message is it do what you love and everything will be okay. It's actually the opposite because you have characters in the book like, uh, Sungu Sungu PERSON, who is like an office worker turned author,who used to work in coding. And he loved coding until, you know, he got burnt out. And then he switched to a different department. And you also have characters who, like, worked jobs that they were very passionate in.

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And Songu tells Minchal PERSON, who is, like high schooler in this book, who is like complete, who's kind of going through burnout syndrome and also like kind of like depression.

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And he says, doing what you like doesn't guarantee happiness. Unless you're also in an excellent environment than maybe. Sometimes it's the environment that's more important. If you're in an ill-suited environment, what you enjoy can become something you want to give up. What I'm saying is not everyone fits into the mold of finding happiness just by discovering what they like. That's too simplified, not to mention naive.simplified, not to mention naive. And going to art school in high school and also going to film school in college, a lot of the things that I've heard from my peers who kind of like went the traditional route of like going to business school, going to, you know, pre-med, you know, they, they would say like offhandedly, like, well, at least you're doing something that you love. So, like, when you do something you love, you don't work a day in your life. But, um, I really hated hearing that because it was just so, it's so hard to love something to the, like, when you love something too much, it, like, destroys you. And, um, you know, like, what you, like, if you, like, if you, you, like, if you love something too much, it, like, destroys you. And, um, you know,like what you, like, if you make something you love into your, um, I guess, like, livelihood,

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it's still work. And, and I think a lot of people, like, don't understand that and kind of

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romanticize it. And also like it doesn't, it doesn't help that people see the arts as something that's frivolous and doesn't contribute to society. And, um, you know, it's just like, oh, you're so lucky that, um, you get to do something that's, you know, that is like, you get to do something that's like so, um, I don't know.Like, that like, that like makes you free. And I'm like, no, it's,

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it's,

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it's not the case.

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And also it's like very frustrating as someone who, you know, you want to, you want to be really good at your craft too. So it's like,

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you're also pressuring yourself. And that's like a different sort of madness compared to like pushing yourself in, in a job that like you really don't care about.

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Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, it's still work. And it's still like any other job takes more than it gives sometimes. Like working in arts, working in community, you're giving up a lot. And it's going to take as much as you give, but not give as much back because, you know, we're all still living under capitalism, which means we still have to pay the rent.We still have to figure how to feed ourselves. We still have to pay our taxes and buy our necessities. And, you know, those of us who have worked in like community organizations, in arts organizations, they weaponize that like, oh, you have such passion. It's like, so you're so dedicated to literally like underpay you, right? Because you should be satisfied with the work you're doing. That should be nourishing in and of itself. And the fact is like, no,

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I still got to eat to live, you know? Yeah, it's still work. I'm still putting in the hours. Like, you should pay me for those hours that I worked. And this is why we had like the writer's strike and the actor strike here in America GPE. Because it's like just because we're doing the things that we love or doing the things that we find ourselves talented in and things that we enjoy, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't be compensated. And I love how Yongju PERSON has kind of brought this philosophy into her bookshop because when shehires Minjun PERSON, her first employee, the barista, she says, oh, I'm going to pay you 12,0001 per hour. You're going to work eight hours per day, five days a week. And that's it. Like, you are not going to work overtime. You're not going to, like, the only responsibilities you have right now is just like coffee stuff. And Minjun is like, why are you paying so much for like, you know you can pay me lower. Most coffee places do pay me lower. This is like casual job. And, you know, she says work life balance is important. And, you know, if you are so tired from doing work, how will you have time to enjoy your life? And I'm like, that is something a lot of bosses do not give a shit about. So yeah, it was just, it was just like really nice that she set this environment for him to really, I guess, like, rest and reflect on his life. Because Minjun PERSON is also someone who kind of feels, you know, kind of feels shafted because he did all the things that society tells him that he should do in order to lead a successful life. And I love the metaphor that he gives about how it feels like he is wearing a shirtand he did the first button by getting into a good college. But then everything else, like, it feels unbuttoned. And I was like, wow, that is a mood. Yeah.

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I mean, if Yongju PERSON is like the older millennial who did everything, right, got into the workforce and became disillusion, Minjun PERSON is like the, much like you, the peak millennial who like, did everything right and then ended up in a world that ended up not needing himafter all. And I think it's, I love that this book gives you the perspective of so many generations, right? Because you also get the outlook of older, like Gen Xers, boomers. And also Minchal PERSON, who I guess would be considered maybe Gen Z, who is seeing like the messed

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up lives of their millennial seniors and saying, why do I even want to like do that? Right. Like is that, is it even worth it?

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And I really love Minjin PERSON as a character. I think Minjin PERSON was my favorite character in this book because I definitely related to him as someone who like fell into a craft and decided to like just what if I became really good at this one thing. He started off just like being a barista at this bookshop, but then ended up getting really into like making a better cup of coffee. And that's kind of, it mirrors my own experience with like podcasting because, you know,started off with something I just wanted to do. And now I have like spent the last almost 10 years trying to get better at it. And trying to make it a thing. And I definitely also related to his like conversations with his mom who like has no idea why he's spending so much time being a barista, right? Why are you wasting your potential?

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Yeah, because, you know, he's working a casual job and she's constantly nagging him being like, you know, like go on vacation for three months and then get back at it at the job interviews. And are you going to do like part-time jobs or casual jobs forever and you know like I think like personally I think doing part-time jobs doing casual jobs for the rest of your life like I think that's fine like you know if that is going to give you the work life balance that, uh, you need in order to lead a satisfying life, then go ahead, do it. Um,work is work. And honestly, like, making your career, your sole definition of like, as, as, like, uh, as your identity, it's, it's it's not healthy and you know you you get his mother's stress and anxiety because she thinks that you know you're never going to find stability and you're never going to be happy but happiness can be reached in different ways and i really like the fact that that idea is explored with a bunch of characters from different generations, like you said,

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Marvin. Yeah. I also love the fact that his best friend, Sun Chil PERSON, end up becoming like a film critic because when we first meet him, he's like always complaining about like, what makes a hit movie and how the industry is messed up? And he comes back later. I love that, like, kind of Chekhov PERSON's film critic that we got.

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Yeah, and it's not like he's like a film critic for a prestigious paper or anything. He's like a blogger. I'm like, I love that.

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I love how, you know, he's just like, I have time.

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This is what I like. And I'm just going to do it. And I'm just like, he's just like, I have time. This is what I like.

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And I'm just going to do it. And I'm just like, that's kind of how I feel with a lot of hobbies that I've had in my life. And, you know, as someone who decided to do, like with this podcast, for example, it's like, I like to read. And sure, I guess, you know, like, once Marvin PERSON was like, let's do a podcast. I'm like, I don't think I've qualified to do it, but also like I read a lot of books and I am the most well read amongst my friend group. So, uh, why not? Yeah. And yeah, I mean, reading this book definitely

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got me thinking of what more we can do with books and blah.

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And I think those are conversations that we can have, you know, later on because I think we're at a point where, like, you know, what's the next step for this book club?

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And that's a conversation for another time.

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I mean, it's kind of what happens with Jungji PERSON, you know?

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time. I mean, it's kind of what happens with Jungji PERSON, you know? Like, she's just like, I open this bookshop because I like to read and I'm like stalking the books that I like, but she starts to

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like add things being like, okay, in order for this bookshop to stay afloat, I have to do blogging and

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social media, let me invite authors.

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Let me open workshops. Let me do giveaways. And it's like one thing becomes like 20 things. And that is like totally understandable because this book club was supposed to beone episode per month. Right.

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Just you and me talking about books

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and inviting anybody else who was in the area to meet up in person. Yes, we used to be an in-person book club. And then Marvin PERSON was like, let's add book news to it. And then let's add author interviews. And now we're like literally recording every week,sometimes two episodes a week. And it's like, when did that happen? Like that happened within like the first three months, I think, of us starting

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this podcast. I mean, I think it was obviously the concept was just something that made sense. And I think, yeah, we got reached out by authors and publicists, like, almost immediately after we launched saying, oh, would you like to interview this author, which I like to have this book? And we were like, it took us a while to get into the groove, right? Because at first we were, like, combining author interviews with book news. We were, you know, putting in book news in front of like book club discussions.But yeah, I think, I don't know. I can't, I don't think there was like a plan. It was just this is what the, I hesitates to say industry, but this is what like the, the environment wanted from us. And we had the bandwidth to provide it.

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So. Yeah, with like, it's just so funny because we started this book club, like, after I, like, left

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Coriam GPE and, you know, I was, like, I was doing some freelancing for journalism, but I just kind of,

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like, felt very burnt out, but also just, like, not, like, not not into it because journalism was something that I just felt into. It was not something that I was pursuing. And, you know, doing this book club was supposed to be a respite. And it was for, for a while. But all of a sudden, like, when we were doing author interviews, you know, like Marvin PERSON, who had faith in me as someone who, like, used to be a journalist. He's like, yeah, you can lead the author interviews. And I'm like, I, like, this is a form of work that I did not expect. Um, but I don't know, like it, in a way, it like helped me grow in terms of being an interviewer and in terms of like being a conversation. Conversationalist because that's not something that I really developed until much later on in my journalism career. I started writing because I was an introvert and because I didn't want to interact with peoplebecause I'm very bad at interacting with people. But then, like, doing journalism where you have to be very social, I was like, uh, this is not what I want to do, but apparently I have to just kind of like learn. Um, and then like doing this book club help mework at a bookstore because now I can like recommend books and now I have to talk to authors in person. And that's terrifying. But I mean, that's the thing about bookshops. It like fosters community as well.

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And I really like the community that Yangju PERSON built. And I don't know, like, it also

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asks the question of like, what is a book shop? Like, essentially it's like a shelter from the world. It is a third place. It's not just about books because even though she has book clubs, you know, at her at her store, She also has workshops that are not related to books and they have yoga sessions. And these are things that just kind of bring the community together.

Speaker 12135.84s - 2166.92s

Yeah. And I definitely love that her customers became kind of like a found family, right? I love the part where they talked about, was it Sansu PERSON, the old man who would come in and just read all the books and leave. And then eventually he became like their go-to bookseller. Right? He became like at the end of the book. He's like a full-time bookseller. He has his own corner of his recommendations. I really like that evolution. Because I can...

Speaker 32166.92s - 2192.58s

I do love how, like, like, Yangju and Minjun PERSON was like, he's not buying any of the books that he's reading. Like, like, we should tell him that this isn't a library. This is a place of business. And, you know, because he's reading these books for hours on end,like, they're probably damaged to a point where we can't sell them to the customers. And this is, like,

Speaker 02192.72s - 2199.3s

a very relatable thing as someone who worked at a bookstore because, like, I get it. Books are

Speaker 32199.3s - 2279.84s

expensive. And, you know, as bookshops that are, like, bookshops are third places, but again, they're not libraries, they're places of business. So, like, there have been times when I would be working and I would see people, like parents or grandparents, they pick out like a picture book and they would take pictures of every single page so that they could read it to your kids later and I've had to like step in and be like, uh, you, you, you can't do that. And you, so you can't do that because, you know, you're, uh, it's kind of pirating. And same thingwith, um, uh, same thing with just like books in general where they spend the entire day reading and it's like that's that's kind of a nuisance but you have characters like uh cheng zha PERSON for for example who you know she quit her job because she had anger issues because of unfair practices and she's like you know I went to a bunch of places and it always felt like I was being a nuisance and taking up space. But this bookshop, you know, you're always just like, you don't need to buy coffee everythree hours in order to like have the right to stay. And that's so rare. Yeah.

Speaker 12280.04s - 2287.92s

I mean, it's definitely like a utopian bookstore, right? Because even when they confronted Sang Su PERSON about like his, his...

Speaker 22287.92s - 2289.76s

He bought like 10 books afterward.

Speaker 12290s - 2311.5s

And I'm like, who the hell do you think you are? Yeah, it just turns out he's like an ignorant a joshi who like didn't know he was doing anything wrong, but like made things up. Like we talked about this in our discord, but like this was like a very Karen PERSON-free bookstore experience, which I imagine is not the norm for like any retail business, right?

Speaker 32311.86s - 2334.98s

No, absolutely not. But although like I feel like bookshops in Korea GPE, they're a little bit different because like a lot of, I mean, they do have hardcovercover books but most of their books are paperback so it is like more affordable it is just like a different type of market compared to America

Speaker 12334.98s - 2343.16s

speaking of book recommendations though I did want to get your thoughts on the fact that man does Jungsu PERSON love Catcher in the Rye

Speaker 32343.16s - 2418.54s

and wants everyone to read it oh my god I just like, I'm judging you so fucking hard. Recently on Twitter, there was this question that kind of went viral and it was like, oh, what's your red flags? What are your red flag books when it comes to first dates? And mine was Catcher in the Rye and also the Midnight Library, which is so funny because this book has been pitched as, you know, people who love Midnight Library by Matt Haig and a story of A.J. Fickory by Gabrielle Zevin PERSON. And I'm like, I really don't like the Midnight Library. It is like one of my 13th reasons why out there as a book.Because I feel like it, I feel like it like romanticizes suicide in a way. And I'm like, that's a big no-no in my book. So like when she was like recommending Catcher in a Rye WORK_OF_ART to like pretty much all all of her customers, like, and then she's like, maybe I should stop recommending books that, you know, I personally like, and it doesn't fit their criteria of, like, of their tastes.

Speaker 22418.54s - 2425.92s

And also, like, maybe I should stop recommending books that are, that are narrated by high schoolers who are burnt

Speaker 02425.92s - 2431.64s

out from the world because that's not everyone's experience. And I'm like, yep, yep.

Speaker 12432.12s - 2433.56s

Please stop.

Speaker 32434.08s - 2435.94s

I just feel like it was like the

Speaker 12435.94s - 2452.56s

one kind of inconsistency as someone who was so well read. I feel like if you're so well read, you've probably moved on from Catchan and Rai PERSON at this point, like by like 20 years. But I definitely thought of you and your reaction to her, like, making everyone read that book.

Speaker 32452.96s - 2498.42s

I get pissed off when people recommend, like, the same best-selling book or, like, classic book. Because I'm like, is that something that you really enjoy? Or is that something that you really enjoy or is that something that you've been conditioned to enjoy because it is a bestseller slash classic like I love the great Gatsby PERSON I think it's a great book but anybody who says it's the best book written and this is my favorite book ever I'm like why is this your favorite book ever? I feel like there's so many diverse books out there now where I'm just like, this can't, this cannot be thepinnacle of your reading experience. And it's probably because they haven't read a book since

Speaker 12498.42s - 2508.34s

high school and that's all they remember. And like, Youngju PERSON, like, she is so much kinder than I can ever be because I am such a judgmental person.

Speaker 32508.52s - 2523.1s

And I could never. This is also another reason why I can never be like a bookshop owner because my personality would, it's just not compatible. I am not sympathetic to other people's tastes. Yeah.

Speaker 12524.1s - 2550.2s

What did you think about like one of my favorite parts in the book that was a lot of fun was they had a whole like book tea interlude, right? When we were introduced to Sungwu PERSON and how he became a writer because he had a, it was a blog or a tumbler, like something like that, like a blog where he, you know, criticizes sentence structure in books and got into a TIF with a publisher. What did you think of the representation of Book Tea PRODUCT in this book?

Speaker 32550.98s - 2697.42s

I didn't really consider it Book Tea. It made me think more about, like, the writing craft, because the trend, like, what is good writing? I feel like it's very dependent on you as a reader. It's very, you know, it's very subjective. And I feel like in the publishing industry, especially in the West, we favor sparse prose. We don't favor a lot of like flowery prose. We, we are all aboutshow, not tell. And personally, I prefer show not tell. but not every story needs to be like that and um and like the whole sparse prose and like masculine prose that was perpetuated by like Hemingway so like when he was saying like oh this like this is the right way to make a sentence, like, don't make a passive, make it active. And I'm like, okay, like, these are, I feel like this is like good advice, but at the same time, you shouldn't feel like superior. And it's, I think it's just like so funny as like a very judgey person.I was like, I judge people's, uh, sentences like all the time. And, uh, as someone who used to be an editor too, that was my job. So, um, it was, it was just like interesting being like reading that, reading that. I'm like, huh, okay. Well, um, yeah, there's some like good general writing advice out there, but kind of picking people apart based on like their writing style. I feel like it was just like, I'm not so sure about that. And he gets like, there was a reckoning because there was like a moment where he had to like post an apology being like,I'm sorry for, you know, being insensitive and just like demolishing people's self-esteem. And he like really reflects on how he treats other writers. And I was like, huh, okay. So it's not just someone who's like, I know the best way to write the perfect sentences and perfect prose.And it's like, no, he was humbled. Like, there's no right way.

Speaker 12697.9s - 2738.12s

I liked him as like, he's the closest thing in this book to like a love interest, right? Because he kind of has that romance to a plot with young ju PERSON i did like that it wasn't like the focus like this isn't a story about young ju and her fighting herself right um but i did like that we did get um some like he represents maybe her you know she was able to restart her professional life, like open this book store making, and finding, like, you know, a place where she can work on something she is into. And then he's like her opportunity to restart her personal life, right?

Speaker 32738.12s - 2838.98s

Yeah, yeah. And speaking of personal life, I really liked, I really like Jimmy PERSON's storyline. So Jimmy PERSON is like the roaster who provides the coffee beans for the bookshop. And she has a troubled marriage. She has a man child of a husband who doesn't have a job. And I mean, that's okay, like not having a job. But, you know, he doesn't contribute to the household. He doesn't cook. He doesn't have a job. And I mean, that's okay, like not having a job. But, you know, he doesn't contribute to the household.He doesn't cook. He doesn't clean. He is kind of, like, very much a burden on Jimmy PERSON's life. And she always complains about him to her coworkers, to Minjun PERSON. And I just really liked how her marriage and her problems were different from Yongju PERSON's failed marriage. Because Yongju PERSON's marriage was like, yeah, we were really great partners when we were both, like,working and goal-oriented. But I just kind of, you know, like I went in a different direction. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. And but at the same time, she spent months like being like, oh, was I selfish? Like I, like, was it okay for me to be selfish? And, yeah, I just like love, love the idea of, like, these two women, like, questioning, like, okay, like, what is a healthy marriage?What is, like, when is it time to call it quits?

Speaker 12840.52s - 2847.04s

It's almost comical how common Jimmy PERSON's situation is because there are multiple people that I know

Speaker 32847.04s - 2853.1s

who have I mean she talks about that too on how common it is like have gone through that exact same

Speaker 12853.1s - 2858.58s

experience and maybe spent way too long deciding that maybe this isn't working and also like

Speaker 32858.58s - 2869.88s

Korea GPE is like such a patriarchal society right so like she talks about like how her aunties and like like other other, other women that she's talked to, they would complain about their husbands, but they'll say, like,

Speaker 12869.92s - 2881.48s

oh, but he's a good person and, uh, yeah. I mean, even young Jew NORP's own mother is mad at her for, like, not sticking through the marriage because divorce is like the worst thing that can

Speaker 32881.48s - 2938.86s

ever happen to a woman, right? Yeah, it's considered like a failure. And, you know, for the people who are not really familiar with Korean society today, right now there's a movement called the 4B movement. And it's like, you know, it's women saying like, we're not going to get married. We're not going to have kids. We're not going to even date or have sex because we are content with our lives. And why would we give up our peace for a man who is pretty much going to be like our child and we would have to like take care of them?It's just like, no, we're not sacrificing that. And also, like, if you want us to procreate government, you need to treat us better. And I love how, like, you kind of get that commentary through Jimmy's storyline. Yeah. One thing that did surprise me of the book is the

Speaker 12938.86s - 2950.38s

fact that we don't really get Yangtie PERSON's backstory, like, until literally the last few chapters of the book. And I was like...

Speaker 32950.38s - 2952.68s

The book jacket description, like, tells you right away.

Speaker 12952.8s - 2975.76s

Well, yeah. But I was expecting it to be like, oh, the first few chapters, we'll see how she ended up here, what happened. And at some point, I was like, well, maybe they're not going to get into it. Maybe it's all just through context clues. And then we finally get to it. And it was like, okay, it's a really interesting place to put it. But at the same time, it also shows how, like,it's meant to flesh out the story, but not be the story, which was, I think, a really cool thing

Speaker 32975.76s - 2998.16s

that this book does. Yeah, I thought it was a pretty good way to put some plot there. Because this is not like, I mean, it's not a traditionally plot-heavy book. I will say that this book has plot because you have multiple characters with transformations.

Speaker 22998.64s - 2999.5s

Yeah, there's definitely development.

Speaker 33000.74s - 3032.78s

Yeah, you have development and there is momentum in the book. But at the same time, like, this isn't a book where, like, it's, it's like action heavy, you know? And I love that. This book is very gentle. It's very, like, take things slow and just do what's right in the moment. Take one step at a time. And even though you don't know where you're going, you are going somewhere. And I thought that was like really comforting as a reader.

Speaker 13033.46s - 3060.68s

Yeah. And I learned some stuff too. Like I learn about latte dads. I learn about downshifting, which is a really like really cool term for that phenomenon we were talking about, which is like taking a break and like slowing down and starting over, right?Like, I really enjoyed the, that one chapter where they had the book club discussion and it was like a multi-generational discussion on like how capitalism and work culture screws us all.

Speaker 33060.68s - 3067.04s

And I also like the book club meeting with Mincho PERSON's mom. Because she starts like a

Speaker 13067.04s - 3073.3s

mommy book club. And there's a moment where she's like, I want us to reintroduce ourselves.

Speaker 33073.3s - 3094.9s

Because in Korea and also like in Asia, if you're a parent, you're called like Marvin PERSON's dad, Marvin PERSON's mom. You're like never called by your name. And she's like, well, in this book club, I want us to be people who have identity outside of our roles in our household. And I was just like,

Speaker 03094.9s - 3102.7s

wow, this is like such a great place for these women to bond and have conversations about life

Speaker 33102.7s - 3154.32s

and also to, you know, connect with themselves through reading. And that's the power of books, you know? Like books that good books give you connection to other people and it opens doors to other worlds. And like if you've been a long time listener, you've probably gotten to know Marvin PERSON and I, like, very well because we talk about our personal struggles and lives through the books that we read. And it's the same with our book club members. Like,we get to know them a little bit more. And, um, you know, when you guys share your thoughts, it's like, okay, like we, we're guys share your thoughts, it's like, okay, like, we're getting, we're, there's like a connection there. And that's a really special thing. Yeah. And it was definitely

Speaker 13154.32s - 3166.3s

cool what the book does, which is up to that chapter, Mitchell PERSON's mom has been referred to as Minchell's mom. But from that chapter on, she's Hijo PERSON, right? We start referring to her to her name,

Speaker 33166.44s - 3236.42s

which was really cool. Yeah, and I just love how, like, her ultimatum for her son is like, okay, you don't want to go to cram school. Well, you're going to like go to this bookshop and you're going to read a book that Yangju PERSON recommends. Like, that is just, like, a thing that you're going to do. And I thought that was, like, a really, like, rare parenting method that I've seen in Asian NORP households because it's always just, like, you need to study.You need to, like, you need to, like, put 100% effort into everything. But she's,'s like I'm actually worried about my son because he's just like so indifferent to the world and to just like school and everything how do I get him to actually like feel something again and um I don't know like it was just like it was just like refreshing to see like a mom character just character, just be like, okay, like, it's okay to live a slow life. And in the end, Minter PERSON doesn't go to college and they use that college tuition money to go on vacation. So I'm like, that's great.

Speaker 13236.54s - 3240.16s

Yeah, that's a lot of money. I love that the solution is go to his bookstore and probably

Speaker 33240.16s - 3267s

read Catching the Rye WORK_OF_ART, right? Yeah, and like, also he, like, at some point he was like, do I have to read every single time I come in, and Yongju PERSON is just like, no, we don't have to read books that you don't want to read. We can just talk, or you could just space out and watch Zhengse PERSON, like, knit and crochet.There's nothing wrong with just, you know, taking time for yourself.

Speaker 13267s - 3267.86s

Yeah.

Speaker 33269.34s - 3342.3s

I definitely related to Zhengso PERSON so much because of like her anger issues because it is something that I struggle with all the time. And it was something that I struggled with like for a short time like working entertainment industry, being like, everything is so unfair and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so it's like, I don't know how I can, I don't know how I can live this way because I'm mad all the time. And just like her journey of, like, finding a way to channel her anger and to find peace. And, you know, like in the end, like, she's like, I'm going to, like, I have to find a job because money is, money is important.But I think I'm, I think I'll be able to handle shitty coworkers and bosses that steal my work and, you know, steal all the credit. Because, you know, I, like, I found a way to make work not my life and not make becoming a permanent employee as, like, my sole goal in life. And I'm like, good for you, girl. Yeah, do yoga.Do that meditation. Do the knitting.

Speaker 13342.86s - 3362.82s

I think in this day and age, that's kind of just, that's what self-actualization looks like, is realizing that we don't have to, you know, we have to play under capitalism, but we don't have to make it our lives. Like, it doesn't have to, like, we can find a way to live with it, but not play the game that it wants us to play.

Speaker 33362.82s - 3392.88s

I, too, also tried crocheting after, like, after quitting and just, like, trying to start my life over and take a break. But I was so bad at it. Like, I, like, I tried so many crafts to, like, find, like, a hobby that could be, like, restorative to me. And it was not crocheting, it was not knitting,it was not gardening or baking or cooking, none of those things.

Speaker 13393.78s - 3398.72s

So. Yeah. My wife likes putting stuff together. So she's been doing those like little like book nook

Speaker 33398.72s - 3405.04s

models. The book what? The little like book nook models. Like the, have you seen those?

Speaker 13405.68s - 3411.36s

They're like model kits, but for like a small like diorama, that's the size of a book

Speaker 33411.36s - 3412.38s

that you put in your bookshelf.

Speaker 13412.68s - 3414.54s

Oh, interesting. Yeah. I haven't.

Speaker 33414.6s - 3420.02s

I think I've seen it on like YouTube channels, but yeah, I haven't, I don't know anyone

Speaker 13420.02s - 3422.48s

like personally who does that.

Speaker 33422.48s - 3425.28s

Well, now that we put it on their podcast, it's a catching the algorithm,

Speaker 13425.62s - 3432.94s

and hopefully we'll get sponsored by one of those and get some free samples. That's our dream on this podcast, is to just get free stuff.

Speaker 33433.3s - 3529.3s

But we got some comments from our book club readers on this book, and we got some on Discord and also on our Good Reads Forum ORG. And on our Good Reads forums, thank you, Alwyn PERSON, for submitting your thoughts. And they wrote, like they said, they read the arc.So they're mainly going off of their notes and memory. And they said, I liked it overall. It was a fairly undemanding, gentle read, but could be quite thoughtful, too. I like the bookshop setting and enjoyed the numerous references to specific books, authors, and reading in general. The slice of life narrative and the emphasis on found family slash community, the importance of finding your own space slash following your dream,reminded me a little of favorite K dramas, like, would you like a cup of coffee? And I've never watched that drama, but I'm guessing it's kind of like before the coffee gets cold, you know, the book that we've read in the past for this book club. And they mentioned a piece that was written in the Korea Herald about the pressures to work somewhere prestigious, tick all the right boxes, terms of marriage, which are allsocial themes that we talked about in our discussion today. And they said, Yongdu PERSON works well as a depiction of a woman who's trying to walk away from all that. I thought the character of Mincharl PERSON and his mother werealso effective in highlighting the potential destructiveness of wider social expectations. Definitely. Yeah.

Speaker 13529.82s - 3530.12s

Yeah.

Speaker 33530.22s - 3542.06s

Definitely. Like, I was going and expecting something similar to before the coffee gets cold, like the type of, like, I guess, Japanese NORP cozy book where it's like, here is a business and here are stories of people that come in.

Speaker 13543.54s - 3550.98s

But I'm not mad that this book turned out to be more of like, like you mentioned, like a book about healing and about community.

Speaker 33551.48s - 3562.44s

As I've gotten older, I've gravitated more towards like slice of life stories rather than like big fantasies and big action books.

Speaker 23563.24s - 3566.08s

I think I've really like mellowed out.

Speaker 13567.24s - 3579.64s

I mean, sometimes you just want to, you know, chill. It's like the equivalent of putting on, you know, obviously you can't read a book in the background. But like putting on like a comfort watch in the background and like just letting the vibes wash over you. Right. Yeah.

Speaker 33580.22s - 3614.8s

And our Discord member, Cherry, says, or Sherry PERSON, I'm sorry if I've, like, pronounced your name incorrectly. But they said it makes them want to run a bookshop. A friend of mine who works at a bookstore is lending me her advanced copy. And she says this is her dream bookstore. Which begs the question, what are your, like, if you could open up a bookshop, like, what would it look like? I'm really curious to hear your thoughts.What about you, Marvin PERSON? What would be your ideal bookshop?

Speaker 13615.4s - 3692.06s

I mean, obviously, it would have books and boba. Because if I would open a bookshop, it would be a books and boba bookshop. I think I would love to just do like the UME ORG thing where it's like, let's open a store that just features Asian NORP diaspora authors and do events and just be a part of the community. The business model, of course, much like all independent bookstores, it's not the most ideal or profitable.But I think there's something to be said about creating a community hub. Because I think that's something that we found through this podcast is there is a community of people who are interested in reading about Asian NORP experiences and voices or want a place where they can, you know, hear those experiences and perspectives. And we provide that in a digital space. but providing it in a physical space is also something that would be cool.I mean, obviously, it won't be like the most profitable of businesses. But if we can figure out a way to like, I think the key would be much like the Hulnamdong Bookshop, having really dope drinks so that we both have book clientele and drink clientele. At the same time, I'm with you, Riva. It sounds really hard. I don't know if. It is, it is very hard.

Speaker 33692.78s - 3739.34s

But, like, some shoutouts to bookstores that I love and also, like, would like to visit. So, one bookstore that I really want to visit when I go back to New York other than you and me is the book club bar in the East Village LOC. And it's their concept is a boozy book club shop. So it's open till midnight. And people go to read and, you know, drink alcohol. And it is like a very like cozy place from what I have seen on social media. And I'm like, yeah, I would love to have like a place where I can be alone and nurse my whiskey sour and like not have my laptop open. Because they also have a rule saying no laptops open past 6 p.m.

Speaker 13739.34s - 3749.84s

That sounds pretty good actually. It sounds pretty great. Pretty great. The ripped bodice opened up a new branch in Brooklyn GPE.

Speaker 33750.02s - 3799.98s

Ripped Bodice is based here in L.A. GPE, but they opened up their second location. And we've been to a couple of events there. And it's a store that specializes in romance. And that's like, you know, it's been like really cool to see bookshops that specialize in like a very specific niche because it means how there's like more bookshelf space for uh more diversebooks uh in my town another bookshop opened recently it's called octavia's ORG bookshelf and it focuses on uhipak NORP writers specifically black writers so that's pretty great. But yeah I'm curious as to hearing likewhat other bookshops you guys like or would like to visit in the future. Yeah. Let us

Speaker 13799.98s - 3816.72s

know your thoughts on Goodreads ORG and our Discord server if you're a Patreon ORG subscriber we definitely love to keep this conversation going because I definitely need, like one thing that I love doing is visiting bookstores when I'm out traveling. So I would love to get all your recommendations for future trips.

Speaker 33817.26s - 3860.56s

But I guess, I'm going to London soon and there's a store, there's a, there's a street on a Covent Garden FAC where it's just like a street filled with bookshops and I'm like, I need to just go visit because that sounds really cool. And for our Patreon ORG members, we havean episode with Lily Rugo who's been a former guest on the show for book discussions. She is a bookseller at Harvard Bookstore ORG, and we talked to her about what it's like to be a bookseller and what her daily, you know, tasks are. And, you know, what are the perks and what are the down,

Speaker 03860.94s - 3879.42s

you know, what are the downsides? And you kind of learn from reading this book, but, you know, like we said, this is an ideal bookshop. So if you want to learn more about like what it's like to work at a real bookshop, you know, if you're a Patreon ORG member, go listen to that episode.

Speaker 13879.86s - 3934.26s

Yeah. I guess with that, that'll do it for a discussion of welcome to the Hunam Dong Bookshop by Huang Borum, translated by Shana Tan PERSON. One thing that was interesting was in her bio, Shana Tan was mentored by Anton Her PERSON, who we had on our podcast previous. So kind of cool to see that like translator community carry on through our book club. Like we mentioned, if you have thoughts about our discussion or your own thoughts on bookstores, please let us know on our Discord server or on Goodreads ORG.We always love to hear your feedback. All right, before we go, it's time to announce our book club pick for the month of April 2024. And this is an audience picked. So we did poll our Honeyboba Patreon members to ask them for their bookrecommendations and chose a book from there. So, Rebra PERSON, what are we reading? We are reading.

Speaker 33934.52s - 3942.12s

Drumroll, please. We are reading Yellowface by R.F. Kwong. Yeah.

Speaker 13942.72s - 3956.04s

I feel like, you know, I know we just read Babel a year ago, but this is a book that has been on both of our TBR lists. And as also people constantly ask me, like, what do you

Speaker 33956.04s - 3963.18s

think about yellow feed? And I'm like, I haven't read it yet, guys. Yeah, like we mentioned

Speaker 13963.18s - 3987.82s

early on this podcast. We read a lot of books now for this podcast. So the best way for us to get to books that we want to read is to honestly make ourselves do it through this book club. Thank you to Patreon member Kupo Gen PERSON for submitting this book. We had a lot of really great recommendations, but this definitely was a book that was like just, we've been looking for a reason to read it.

Speaker 33988.16s - 4032.56s

And so thank you for providing that for us. Yeah, like the reason why we've kind of like hesitated to have it as a book club pick is because we've read Babel by R of Quag PERSON. And of course, like we want to have room to bring in new uh like bring in like new authors that we haven't really talked about or like you know featured on the show but i feel like yellowface is like so tailored to like our our mission as a show that we kind of have to review it at somepoint and i thought about us like discussing it on a Patreon ORG episode. But I feel like with us talking about it in, like, a regular episode, it'll reach,

Speaker 24033.16s - 4053.1s

you'll have a better reach and, you know, get more comments from our listeners who have already read the book, because if you have been living under a rock or something, this book has been super popular outside the Asian American community as well. It's reached New York Times ORG bestseller. It's been

Speaker 34053.1s - 4060.06s

like a bunch of book club picks and yeah. Yeah. And I feel like it's just such a great follow-up to

Speaker 14060.06s - 4068.28s

this cozy book about book selling. Right. Yeah. yeah. But for those of you who do not know what yellow face is about,

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it's pretty much about a white author who takes on an Asian NORP name after her Asian BFF dies

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and leaves behind this manuscript.

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And she takes the manuscript and kind of like makes it her her own thing. That's kind of the gist of it I think.

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Yeah. And it definitely, it's a send-up of like, you know, R of Kwong, not one to hold back when criticizing capitalism and this book is kind of her send-up to the publishing industry.And I'm really excited to get into it.

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Also, I heard from the grapevine that a lot of the book tea in Yellowface WORK_OF_ART, like, happened for real. And as people who cover book tea on our news episodes, I wonder how many will, like, know the references to. Yeah.

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So, as always,

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read along with us. We'll be discussing this book at the end of April. If you have

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already finished the book and have thoughts, please let us know either on our good reads forums or on our Discord server if you are a future and subscriber. We'd love to include your feedback in our future discussion episodes as well. But with that, that'll do it for this episode of Books and Bubba ORG. Thank you so much for listening. And we'll see you all next time. Bye, everybody.Thanks for listening to Books and Bova ORG. This podcast was hosted by Marvin Yew PERSON and edited and produced by Marvin Yew. Follow the book club on Twitter and Instagram by going to at Books and Bova ORG and engage with us on Goodreads ORG on our Goodreads group. You can also check out past episodes of the podcast by going to Booksandbova.com and by subscribing to us on your favorite podcast app. Don't forget, you can support Books and Bova and Asian American NORP authors by purchasing books at our bookshop.org account.Check out the link in our show notes and also at Booksendbova.com ORG. Books and Boba is a proud member of the Potluck Podcast Collective ORG, a collective of Asian NORP-American hosts of podcasts featuring unique voices and stories from the Asian diaspora. Learn more about the collective and check out our fellow podluck ORG shows by visiting the website podcastpotluck.com. Thanks for listening. Hello, I'm Phil You, and I'm the host of All the Asians on Star Trek WORK_OF_ART,

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the podcast in which I interview All the Asians on Star Trek. I'm talking to actors, writers, directors, stunt people, background extras. You know, all the Asians on Star Trek. Find out more at all the Asians on Star Trek.com ORG.Part of the Potluck Podcast Collective ORG. Live long and prosper.